Hey all. I've officially been moved into campus housing at SIUE and my Fiero is parked at the on campus parking for my dorm. A little bit to my surprise I'm not the only Fiero on campus! I've seen two GTs parked at other dorm parking on campus.
Unfortunately ever since arriving, my cars not been in the best working order mechanically. I've seemed to develop an intermittent misfire, although currently it seems to be staying for good. I'm not overheating and the car is still drivable and being my only means of transportation, I've been driving it. I tried pulling plug wires to see if I could identify which cylinder was misfiring and I believe it's cylinder 5. I have no tools at my ready unfortunately, though I did purchase a spark plug socket and pulled a plug I was suspecting to be the problem and replaced it (I replaced all my spark plugs a few months ago except for one because I had lost the other this was the plug I replaced). After replacing the plug the miss seemed to go away but sure enough has reappeared.
I didn't want to start a new thread about this and I figured since I'm in the St. Louis area now local help may be my best option. My next plan of action was to replace the plug wires as they haven't been changed since the car came under my ownership. Unfortunately being a college student I don't have the funds immediately available. Anyone have any suggestions about checking other potential causes? I have a video taken from inside the car and you can make out the miss, but I'll have to get a better video some other time. Thanks in advance for any advice!
Dylpro, im sure everyone in this thread will be willing to help, now its just the time to meet up to help you sort it out, How far do you drive the car on a daily basis, is the check engine light on? get to autozone and get their compression tool and run a compression check before throwing parts at it
Thank you very much Loren. Like I said I'm thrilled to be nearer to such a thriving community of Fiero enthusiasts. Tomorrow I'll try to get the compression testing tool and try that. Back when we changed the spark plugs we ran a compression test (this was all part of an auto technology class I took in high school, at the time I took apart the engine to the valve covers and put new gaskets, added the stainless steel vacuum lines from TFS, and changed all the plugs with the exception of the one). At that time compression was good across all cylinders.
Ever since installing the vacuum lines I've had code 32. Checked again tonight and it was still the only code. I went out late tonight and tried pulling the plug on cylinder 1. I have a picture of the plug posted below. It did seem to have some oil around it, but I'm not sure if it would be considered a soiled plug. I also took a video of the engine and tried getting the tone from the exhaust as well, just in case anyone hears something other than a miss. From my experience (limited at best) it sounds like a miss, but I could be wrong. The video and the picture of the plug and the plug well are posted below. The video quality is still pretty poor unfortunately.
The computers guess is code 32. With rough idle indicates the EGR is not closing,throwing off your AF ratio.The computer may be right or misdiagnosing because it has limited input. The plug is not oil coated inside the cylinder just outside, right?Looks like you are leaking oil from the valve cover.First thing I would check is the crank vent system since you replace the valve cover seals already.High crank pressure can cause oil leaks and a rough running engine.Simple and free to check.Is it hard to start,rough at idle,missing in upper RPMs? A new EGR is $50 +/-.(In collage money that comes to almost a pony keg).I have a locked up 2.8 from my 86 gt.I don't know if the EGR is good or not but if you want to try I can drop it when I pass through eddyville this weekend.
Excuse the ignorance, but where can I inspect the crank vent system?
Also, going to try getting the compression test done soon. Time hasn't been on my side the last couple weeks and I've been getting around with friends but would rather have my Fiero back on the road.
A couple questions real quick as my memory is rusty when we did the compression test in my high school class.
Per those directions where would I find the fuel pump relay and ignition coil pack? The picture looks like the distributor but I just want to know what I'm doing before I do anything as its my first time doing this without professional help.
you don't have a coil "pack" on the stock v6. Fallow the center spark wire on the distributor .10 inches to the rear of the car you should see the coil.Unplug the pigtail to disable the coil.The fuel relay is on the firewall behind your air filter can.I would just pull the fuel pump fuse.Pull the positive crank vent valve located on the rear valve cover.it's the hose just to the right of your oil fill cap.you should be able to blow through it one way but not the other.Start the engine with the valve off and look for how much air blows out of the valve cover hole.Some is normal especially on cold start.If you can feel the air from 6 inches away you may have too much blow by,do compression test.The valve should have enough vacuum to suck onto your finger where it takes some effort to pull it off.I am giving you the crude tests because I am assuming you don't have vacuum and pressure gauges.Hope this helps.
I also took a video of the engine and tried getting the tone from the exhaust as well, just in case anyone hears something other than a miss. From my experience (limited at best) it sounds like a miss, but I could be wrong. The video quality is still pretty poor unfortunately.
I can't tell if all that racket is a massive exhaust leak and/or badly adjusted/collapsed lifters. I do seem to hear a miss. Hopefully it's not due to a wiped cam lobe (which might also explain the loose lifter/rocker).
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-06-2016).]
Dylpro,just watched your video on the big screen.The boot for the PCV looks shot.Probably where the oil on the outside of the plug came from.Is it missing at an idle or just upper RPMS?Dose it smooth out when the engine get to operating temp?That could be a major vacuum leak throwing off your A/F ratio.At idle your AIC valve can compensate but once on throttle the fuel injectors will try to compensate for the unmetered air.Someone correct me if I am wrong but the 2.8 valve train is not adjustable.Hydraulic lifters can get stuck collapsed causing the valve tick.
No problem. I didn't have time to fix it so it is still sitting there. Do you have room in the shop to do it next time I come back? Its a pretty big job!!!
I have never had the need to adjust valve lash on a 2.8.Just passing on what I had read online.I have been told internet info isn't always accurate..lol..That's why I asked for correction if I was wrong.The main reason for having car forums?Knowing is half the battle! Thanks for the input Patrick!
Compression tested out good. I took it in to a guy to see if he would just go ahead and do a diagnosis. I had suspected it may have been spark plug wires to begin with and that's what he picked out too. Sparks were flying across them. He also said the EGR intake is clogged which is probably why code 32 is being thrown. There is also leaking coming from the intake valves. He said to start small and work our way up, I have the know how to change plug wires so I'll be trying to get the time to do those this week. After that he said he wants to take car of the EGR problem. He said he wants to clean up the valves and try running a seafoam cleaner through it to see if it may just be carbon build up causing the leaking.
Spark plug wires did the trick. Back to running like it was before, but I guess drivable doesn't mean problem free. Worried about the leaking intake valve but for now it's at least more reliable getting to and from short distances. Thanks again everyone for the help so far, I'm sure this won't be the last you hear from me! I'd love to partake in any upcoming events going on in the St. Louis area and meet some other Fiero enthusiasts! I'll be checking back regularly, we should do a small meet soon! Regards!
Glad to hear you are getting a handle on the problem.I don't know what you are referring to with an intake valve leak?Was it a good compression test but the leak down test failed?Are you getting blow by from a leaking valve guide? Definitely try sea foam next.I've been using my grandpas "engine revitalizing go juice" since back in the 80s.4 parts diesel,2 parts lighter fluid (naphtha),1 part rubbing alcohol (isoprryle). He called it go juice because it turns green when mixed.Cheap,simple,and 99.7% identical to sea foam.Dump it in the tank to clean the fuel system and I use a spray bottle to spray into the throttle body.
A GTG would be nice before winter. I used transmission fluid in my truck which I have talked to mechanics about, just be prepared to change the oil and filter after 50 to 100 miles. Also highly recommended to drop the oil pan. My sons car needs it bad there is so much gunk in it.
Shop just told me the intake valves were not shutting all the way and suggested a carbon build up may be the reason for it not closing. I may have misinterpreted what he meant as I'm not familiar with all the lingo. I didn't grow up around mechanics unfortunately lol.
Driving like it was before still. I did however find this as an alternative to EGR https://www.blacktop.racing...v6-egr-block-off-kit Anyone have experience using it or have done something similar? It says it wouldn't cause code 32 so I'm guessing installing this wouldn't get rid of code 32.
I have trouble believing politicians lawyers and mechanics.If the valves are not seating you would see it in a compression test.As mentioned ATF is a detergent that dose work well at cleaning the valves and seats.ADD it slowly to the throttel body.It will smoke like an SOB!That's normal till it all works out of the engine.If you are running cat converter use the sea foam after the ATF to help clear it out. As for the block off plate.Will prevent code 32 from coming back...A definite maybe.When it comes to EGR block offs you will get a different answer from anyone you ask.Some cars like the EGR others run better without it.No EGR is better than a broken EGR in most cases.Before you order the fancy block off plates try a test plate.Go to home depot in the roofing area.Look for 6 inch square metal plates used for flashing.Should be less than 1 dallor.Remove the EGR.Cut a piece off the metal that fits between the mounting bolts but covers the port holes.Seal with high heat gasket sealer.Bolt the EGR back on to hold the plate.Reset computer and test drive.I have left them in for years so temp/permanent block off. Kenny at Edwardsville auto is reputable mechanic if you ever need one.I pass through edwardsvlle on occasional weekends if you need help.
Thanks again for the info! I've heard of Edwardsville Auto as well and basically chose between them and Marks Muffler Shop around the corner just based on the online reviews. Again, I feel like I may have misconstrued things when I brought it in.
The car had the cat removed before my ownership. The car also runs very rich, strong smell of exhaust to the point Mark opened up the doors in the waiting area because of the fumes coming from my car. I always attributed it to the cat delete but I guess I never really have found out why it is running so rich.
The car had the cat removed before my ownership. The car also runs very rich... I always attributed it to the cat delete
You might have the scenario backwards. Running rich (for an extended period of time) often destroys the cat which can lead to it plugging up... which can then lead to it being deleted so that the engine can at least still run.
Since changing the wires I haven't noticed any misfiring. Perhaps leaky injectors? When I replaced the valve covers I cleaned them up a bit however they did seem to show their age. My shop teacher at the time said they were still good though so we put them back on. Unfortunately my poor car seems like she was quite neglected in it's past lives. Doing the most I can as of right now mechanically and economically. Hoping not to admit defeat as I love the car but eventually I may need better transportation. For the foreseeable future though I'll be slowly chipping away at everything.
I did some more reading about the EGR delete and saw varying answers like you said Matt. I read it runs more economically with the EGR in working order and that deleting it may hurt MPGs which my car is already suffering from poor mileage. So if the EGR is not in working order would I be running more economically with how it is now or an EGR block off plate? A lot of people also suggested purchasing a reprogrammed chip with the EGR deleted. I feel if I were to block off the EGR I'd likely order one of the chips as well.
Maybe a stupid question but is there a reprogramming necessary or available when the cat is deleted?
The EGR (if working correctly)should be closed and doing nothing at an idle.It should open only when you are up to temp and under a load,ie accelerating.So when idling cruising and still warming up it is closed.The purpose is when you are under a sudden load(accelerating) the cylinder gets a burst of air/fuel that it can't burn completely because you are not at the peak performance RPM.Think of a dyno curve.peak hp is the peak efficiency for the cylinders.At a steady rpm you will burn most of A/F mix.If you are WOT there is more fuel than the engine can efficiently burn at that RPM so it is sent out the exhaust. The egr opens to allow some of this unburnt fuel back into the intake for a second try. Will it effect you MPG?yes.But if you figure the area of the egr valve is maybe 5% of the throttle body area and the exhausted A/F mix being returned is at least 50% burnt.Assuming 20 MPG at WOT.The EGR would yield .25% increase in MPG = 20.05 MPG.In my opinion and experience not worth the carbonizing problems they create.I have done controlled test drives and there is no difference on highway MPG and driving like a mad man in the city stop and go I saw 1MPG loss.People also think the go fast stickers increase HP. As for programing.As far as I know there is no sensor for the computer to know if the EGR is actually working or not.The computer gets its information from a control solenoid.If the solenoid is not reading or sending the correct vacuum it tells the ecm to set code 32.To test the solenoid you should have vacuum to the EGR only when the engine is warm and you tag the throttle.The more parts you can confirm are good the closer you are to finding the one that is bad.
Thanks again for the info matt. My MPGs have suffered quite a bit. The way you make it sound is that an EGR malfunction wouldn't kill my MPGs, but my MPG is certainly not very good. I've put 25 dollars in over the past two weeks and currently over half a tank, but it goes down quick. When I get to less than a quarter tank (estimating as my gauge is not all that accurate) you can hear what I'm assuming is the fuel pump making a terrible whining noise. Goes away after gassing up though. I try to keep more than half a tank in at a time to avoid hearing it. I also use it as somewhat of a gauge of how much gas I have left. The louder it is, the sooner I need to fill up.
After doing some more reading into leaky injectors it does seem like I have a few symptoms of it, but I feel like I think that about anything I read. Drove to a buddy's house on Monday and the smell of fuel was overwhelming in the cabin. Lots of white smoke on start up as well, usually more noticeable in the cold whether. I again attributed that to the cat delete.
Haven't driven it since Monday. Making a Walmart run to pick up one of their 20 dollar mechanics tool sets later today though. Better than having no tools!
[This message has been edited by Dylpro (edited 10-26-2016).]
Not to add to the list, but check the fuel pressure regulator for a leak. You could just have a fuel hose leaking. I wouldn't recommend driving a Fiero with a fuel leak.
Also, check your oil to be sure you don't have a coolant leak getting into the exhaust/oil.
Thanks again for the info! I've heard of Edwardsville Auto as well and basically chose between them and Marks Muffler Shop around the corner just based on the online reviews. Again, I feel like I may have misconstrued things when I brought it in.
The car had the cat removed before my ownership. The car also runs very rich, strong smell of exhaust to the point Mark opened up the doors in the waiting area because of the fumes coming from my car. I always attributed it to the cat delete but I guess I never really have found out why it is running so rich.
It might not be rich. Cars without cats stink because the cat isn't there to catch the stuff that stinks.
Shop just told me the intake valves were not shutting all the way and suggested a carbon build up may be the reason for it not closing. I may have misinterpreted what he meant as I'm not familiar with all the lingo. I didn't grow up around mechanics unfortunately lol.
Driving like it was before still. I did however find this as an alternative to EGR https://www.blacktop.racing...v6-egr-block-off-kit Anyone have experience using it or have done something similar? It says it wouldn't cause code 32 so I'm guessing installing this wouldn't get rid of code 32.
A new EGR is less than $20 more than their block off kit. Also as said if you want to run with no EGR just plug the vacuum lines.
The EGR (if working correctly)should be closed and doing nothing at an idle.It should open only when you are up to temp and under a load,ie accelerating.So when idling cruising and still warming up it is closed.The purpose is when you are under a sudden load(accelerating) the cylinder gets a burst of air/fuel that it can't burn completely because you are not at the peak performance RPM.Think of a dyno curve.peak hp is the peak efficiency for the cylinders.At a steady rpm you will burn most of A/F mix.If you are WOT there is more fuel than the engine can efficiently burn at that RPM so it is sent out the exhaust. The egr opens to allow some of this unburnt fuel back into the intake for a second try.
I believe the bolded comment at the end is a complete fallacy as to the purpose/operation of the EGR.
This is how it was explained to me several years ago...
The ECU does not measure emissions coming out the tailpipe, it measures the oxygen level and determines the A/F ratio based on that. The ECU wants to maintain 14.7 A/F while cruising and at idle.
The EGR system works by inserting the inert exhaust gasses into the intake charge. This has two effects:
1. The exhaust gasses displace the incoming air. That means there is less oxygen to burn therefore it takes less gas to burn it. You get a leaner burn. 2. The exhaust gasses also heat up the incoming charge. Hotter air expands so the same volume that goes into the combustion chamber is leaner. This also leans out the burn.
The end result is you burn less gasoline as the same A/F ratio because the space in the cylinders are filled with inert gasses. When you turn off the EGR system, then the intake charge is more dense and it is 100% air rather then air + exhaust gasses. This takes more gasoline to burn that mix at the same A/F ratio. It also means more HC are going to the catalytic converter and at a certain point, they go through the cat because the cat can only burn so much at a time. The end result is you have too much emissions coming out and you fail the emission test.
[This message has been edited by Patrick (edited 10-26-2016).]
my MPG is certainly not very good. I've put 25 dollars in over the past two weeks and currently over half a tank, but it goes down quick. When I get to less than a quarter tank (estimating as my gauge is not all that accurate) you can hear what I'm assuming is the fuel pump making a terrible whining noise. Goes away after gassing up though. I try to keep more than half a tank in at a time to avoid hearing it.
Lots of white smoke on start up as well, usually more noticeable in the cold whether. I again attributed that to the cat delete.
-Make sure to measure your mpgs you fill it full, press your trip meter, then next time you fill up divide the number of miles by the number fo gallons it took to fill up. (If your tire size is correct) -Its good to keep the tank half full, though if your pump is making noise it may need replacing sooner rather than later. -In cold weather exhaust will show as a steam like color (white) just because to is cold out. If you indeed have white smoke that is more than that, it could be coolant. How is your coolant level in the over flow tank up front?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-26-2016).]
Patrik you are correct in how the system works That part of the physics won't change mileage.I was trying to share the only explanation I have ever herd from any mechanic as to how it increases MPG and how it dose not add up. .The EGR system is not designed to make the engine more efficient.It is there to lower emissions at the cost of efficiency.Hot air lowers your volume because hot air won't expand as much when heated by the cylinder,Lower o2 from the exhaust port forces the ecu to trim the fuel.So,,,, less air,less o2,less fuel.That would be like adjusting your throttle so it wont open all the way.Won't change you MPG much cause now you have to keep the throttle open longer to get to the same speed.Without the EGR you may run rich on a load but the o2 sensor pick that up and the ecm will adjust the AF anyway..Make sense? A far as it plugging his cat.He has no cat and in il these cars are exempt from testing.He would still pass without it because there is no downstream o2 sensor.The emition would be trace fuel vapor not the dreaded NOx gasses.They only look for emition codes.Unburnt fuel will not plug a cat.fuel cleans the cat,oil blow by plugs it.I have cleaned several plugged cats by soaking them in gas.
He said the previous owner had removed the cat. It was probably plugged.
quote
Originally posted by mad dad matt:
Unburnt fuel will not plug a cat. fuel cleans the cat, oil blow by plugs it.
I'm definitely no expert on cats (or dogs!)... but I've read in this forum over and over again how leaky injectors etc will eventually lead to a cat's early demise.
quote
Originally posted by mad dad matt:
I have cleaned several plugged cats by soaking them in gas.
Oh yeah? Here's the cat from my '86 GT. Give it your best shot.
Progress report: Today I changed the front licence plate to match the new plate and registration on the back. They've only been mismatched for a few months now, no big deal. And people think that front plate laws are important
@2.5, that is a good point, if they're that close in price perhaps I will just invest in a new EGR. The valve cover gaskets were just changed about 6 months ago. My tire size is correct on the rears for sure, unfortunately Walmart botched the fronts (my own fault for going to Walmart to begin with I suppose). At the time they replaced a single front tire with 195/R15 I believe. When I bring the car in to change the other 3 they give me some run around saying they can't put 195/60R15s on the front because their computer said the stock tire size was 205/60R15 and they couldn't put different sized tires on. What I don't understand is why this wasn't an issue when I got the first tire changed? They ended up putting another 195/60R15 on the front to match the one they botched in the first place. So on the rears I have 215/60R15s, fronts are 195/60R15s and stock is suppose to be 205/60R15. Not sure how much this would affect it and now that it's been a couple months I'm worried they wouldn't correct the mistake.
Wish I could say I follow you guys on the EGR info, but afraid I don't. The car is drivable with the EGR as is I believe, at least I've been driving it. I feel like I should probably do some investigating on either an oil leak, fuel line leak, or coolant leak first. I haven't checked my overflow tank recently but the last time I got an oil change the shop told me my coolant was slightly lower than what was suggested. They offered a coolant flush but this was a budget shop and I read the Fiero has special coolant filling procedures so I opted out of it at the time as they said it wasn't dire then.
There obviously must be an oil leak if those plugs are coming out like that. Is it possible the oil around the outside is just some left over leaked oil from before I changed the valve cover gaskets? Before I changed them my valve covers were literally black covered in oil. Since changing them I haven't noticed any oil leaking anywhere under the car or around the valve covers, just in the plug wells.
I'll have to do some looking into the fuel pressure regulator, at the time of writing this I wouldn't be able to tell you where it is or what I'm looking for but I'll do some research before coming back with more problems.
Thanks everyone again for the help. I feel like I'm helpless through all of this so I really appreciate the patience everyone's showing towards my questions!
Feel free to use me as an example when answering the "Fiero as a first car" threads! (Not my first car but probably not the best choice for a college student!)
[This message has been edited by Dylpro (edited 10-28-2016).]
A leaking injector will wash out your rings oil plugging a cat.Cats get heated from the exhaust so they can burn any remaining reactants(fuel).If you have way too much fuel you can overheat and melt a cat.That would take much more than a EGR problem.A injector or two that never closes would do it assuming you don't hydolock first.That cat pictured wasn't plugged or melted it was smashed.There is no fixing one after that kind of abuse.lol We are getting way off topic..... ADD moment....lol 1) Use the link in my post to test the EGR control solenoid.That is most likely the source of the code 32. 2) Most parts places have tool rental were they hold a deposit until you return the tool.Then you get all your money back.Rent a fuel pressure gauge . Tests to eliminate your pump,filter,regulator,and lines. 3)wrap a paper towel over the end of a screwdriver and probe the injectors at the base.look and smell for fuel on the towel. 4)Check PCV is still working as a one way valve and the grommet is not leaking oil.You should be able to blow through one way but not the other. 5)remove pcv and slowly pour ATF or sea foam into the hose to decarbon the motor. 6)You said you have to keep the fuel level up to quite the pump.Do you top off the tank or stop when the pump kicks off?The smell could be a saturated evap canister if you overfill, it takes a long time to clear the evap if it ever clears on its own.
Test and eliminate before you throw parts at it.Hope this gives you a handle on where to start.
[This message has been edited by mad dad matt (edited 10-29-2016).]
So on the rears I have 215/60R15s, fronts are 195/60R15s and stock is suppose to be 205/60R15. Not sure how much this would affect it and now that it's been a couple months I'm worried they wouldn't correct the mistake.
Wish I could say I follow you guys on the EGR info, but afraid I don't. The car is drivable with the EGR as is I believe, at least I've been driving it.
I haven't checked my overflow tank recently but the last time I got an oil change the shop told me my coolant was slightly lower than what was suggested.
There obviously must be an oil leak if those plugs are coming out like that. Is it possible the oil around the outside is just some left over leaked oil from before I changed the valve cover gaskets?
Yep the oil in the plug hole would probably be old from before gasket change You could hose down the area with throttle body cleaner ( on a cold engine) to clean it, which I find works good. Then monitor over time and further driving see if a leak is still present.
Tire size, your speedometer is likey approx 1 mph off, when going 60 on the gauge, you would actually be going 61. It would only slightly affect checking your mpg, No biggee.
Running with the vacuum line connections plugged ( non functional egr ) wont cause damage, but would result in less mpgs and a check engine light.
Check the coolant level from time to time. When off and cold it should be at the add line, it can be hard to see. Holding a flashlight right up against the side of the tank can help. Also regularly check the oil and make sure it isn't gray at all or rising in level by itself. I check oil in the morning before driving to know the actual level. If you have just driven give it at least 5 minutes sitting to drain down.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 10-31-2016).]
Misfire is gone after changing plug wires. The vacuum line that goes to EGR is a new replacement from the Fiero store, the stainless steel set. This is when the code first began showing up when driving.
There's no valve lash adjustment with the 2.5 duke, but there certainly is with the 2.8... as I described 
