While this does fall short of an appology, it has to be the most decent thing I've ever witnessed you saying to another member. Thanks for that. Beginnings start somewhere.
It makes more sense to me than the bible stories we were told as kids. It's even happened throughout history. An European explorer found a part of the globe undiscovered to them and found a primitive people. The primitive tribes, for a time, saw them as gods due to their advanced technology. Advanced technology to lesser developed societies can be perceived as magical, a miracle, or power only begotten by gods.
What this says to me is that even the most primitive tribes in the most remote location still understood the concept of "gods". Do we know of any culture that existed with a pure absense of deities? How did they all "create" the same explanation for things if they developed independantly of each other? If all you know is rocks, animals, plants, and water, what are you likely to encounter that causes you to think of "gods" which have never been seen?
I believe it all links back to Noah and his family knowing of the flood and of God's work and they told and re-told the story to the generations. As people were spread further apart, even if the names were forgotten and the people were driven into caves, the story of the flood and/or the "god" that the early people knew were too fantastic to be forgotten.
What I mean is why did you let a ****ing Piece of **** like Wichita lead you around by your nose. Who gives a ratz ass what he thinks?
Personally I would tell him to shove his ' I stand corrected ' apology up his ass too.
I completely understand how you feel. That is one way to look at it. The way I was looking at it was that it kept the thread going and growing, it showed that a "believer" can produce facts contrary to an athiest, it showed that I was being honest and Wichita was being dishonest about his degree, it proved that he was guilty of baseless attacks, my military service combined with my expressions of faith might reach out to someone who may not have had any reason to respet me before, and who knows what else might come from it!
Besides, I was sitting at home, alone, sick, with not much to entertain myself with. I have the certificates in laminated sheets in a binder so it was easy to grab the binder and take the pics. No trouble at all.
He was willing to admit he was wrong when shown ( easily faked ) evidence. Makes him a better man than you, apparently.
I'm not sure who would be a bigger douch bag, a guy who would fake military service documentation or the guy who would suggest that a person had done such a thing. Thanks for letting us ponder that question.
What this says to me is that even the most primitive tribes in the most remote location still understood the concept of "gods". Do we know of any culture that existed with a pure absense of deities? How did they all "create" the same explanation for things if they developed independantly of each other? If all you know is rocks, animals, plants, and water, what are you likely to encounter that causes you to think of "gods" which have never been seen?
I found this explanation:
Religious beliefs developed because people have an innate urge to explain the world around them. Before modern science, that manifested in various myths. It also served the purpose of either comfort, if the deity was loving, or fear to keep you in line if it were vengeful instead.
Nowadays it is important [...] to understand that much of it is a result of social conditioning. People are prone to form as a group and make up something to motivate them which is what they believe in.
“Although the Bible gives us no word about whether or not aliens exist—there is no inclusion of them in the creation account in Genesis, and no mention of them elsewhere—the Bible does tell us about visitors from another world—the spiritual world.Since the beginning, instances of demons (fallen angels) visiting the earth have been witnessed and recorded.”
As a kid, I believed in the possibility of aliens. I still love alien movies to this day. I don't dis-like the concept. What made me stop believing in that possibility was when someone asked me a question. "If there are people on other planets, did Jesus have to go there and die for their sins also?"
That question opened my eyes to the fact that when Jesus paid that price, he did it for all the sins of all the people from that point on. I'm sure God had enough trouble watching His Son die in the terrible way that even athiests agree that happened. God would not allow Jesus to suffer like that again. To have Him do it again would only mean that He didn't do it well enough the first time. He did it perfectly. No need for a do-over.
[i]Religious beliefs developed because people have an innate urge to explain the world around them. Before modern science, that manifested in various myths. It also served the purpose of either comfort, if the deity was loving, or fear to keep you in line if it were vengeful instead.
I just don't see how it could ever start from nothing. The wind blows, storms come and go, the sun rises every day, plants grow, and animals multiply. What sort of things would be so fearful and awesome to cause them to invent a "god" who caused it or controlled it?
I just simply don't find that explanation plausible.
I just don't see how it could ever start from nothing. The wind blows, storms come and go, the sun rises every day, plants grow, and animals multiply. What sort of things would be so fearful and awesome to cause them to invent a "god" who caused it or controlled it?
Lots of things are fearful when you don't understand them. Will the sun reappear again? Why did lightning strike our huts? Why did a storm destroy out crops? Why did granddad get a huge growth on his neck and died in agony? Why did the neighboring tribe come to kill our men and abduct our women? And: why did the river overflow its banks and destroyed our villages, killing many...???
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I have heard a number of reviews and the fallout of the movie. I am glad I did not see it now. Not only is it terribly inaccurate and disrespectful, but every review I have hear/read said it was terrible as entertainment too. It is just a horrible movie all around.
Lots of things are fearful when you don't understand them. Will the sun reappear again? Why did lightning strike our huts? Why did a storm destroy out crops? Why did granddad get a huge growth on his neck and died in agony? Why did the neighboring tribe come to kill our men and abduct our women? And: why did the river overflow its banks and destroyed our villages, killing many...???
You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do...
I think the secret lies within that. If a person kept his beliefs to himself, lived by it and never spoke of it to another, where could be the harm? It's when they tell others that they should live that way is when the trouble begins.
Why must it be professed? Why is it necessary to convince others? Is it recruitment?
See, I think that's the rub with religion. They all seem to want converts and strive for growth. Why? Is it merely a construct to group, to build mass. But why? For strength? Power? Because if so, I would say be very aware of anything concentrated on the accumulation of power over others.
If the reason is that you say it is for good, that it is the right way to live, you can really only say it is right for you. Shouldn't that be enough? Why does religion require missionaries?
And for the record, I belong to no particular grouping (while continually considering all). My head is Science, my heart is everything else...which is to say my head believes what it must, while my heart believes what it wants.
I have heard a number of reviews and the fallout of the movie. I am glad I did not see it now. Not only is it terribly inaccurate and disrespectful, but every review I have hear/read said it was terrible as entertainment too. It is just a horrible movie all around.
Actually, this is exactly why you should see it, if you are concerned with how this fits within your religious views. Shouldn't you see it to better understand it?
Lots of things are fearful when you don't understand them. Will the sun reappear again? Why did lightning strike our huts? Why did a storm destroy out crops? Why did granddad get a huge growth on his neck and died in agony? Why did the neighboring tribe come to kill our men and abduct our women? And: why did the river overflow its banks and destroyed our villages, killing many...???
I agree those things would be troublesome. At first. Then they just become a part of life. Seen one land slide, ya seen them all. (not really ) I would think at least after a few generations of witnessing these things, the awe would dissipate.
Actually, this is exactly why you should see it, if you are concerned with how this fits within your religious views. Shouldn't you see it to better understand it?
I have to jump off the cliff too before I know that it will kill me?
Actually, this is exactly why you should see it, if you are concerned with how this fits within your religious views. Shouldn't you see it to better understand it?
This actually makes sense but in a different way. If I was the leader of a youth group, for instance, I might study the flood story and then take the kids to see the movie. I would ask them to make a list of all the things they notice that are different from the Bible. Could be a great learning experience. Not only about the Bible but to seriously question the stuff coming out of Hollywood.
This actually makes sense but in a different way. If I was the leader of a youth group, for instance, I might study the flood story and then take the kids to see the movie. I would ask them to make a list of all the things they notice that are different from the Bible. Could be a great learning experience. Not only about the Bible but to seriously question the stuff coming out of Hollywood.
A fable is a fable. If it still teaches the lesson than it is still an effective story. I would concentrate on the importance of the message and explain because of the times it was written in is why it was told in this way.
If a person kept his beliefs to himself, lived by it and never spoke of it to another, where could be the harm?
It's when they tell others that they should live that way is when the trouble begins.
Why must it be professed?
I can't speak for other religions so most of what I put here relates to my Christian experience.
The first thing you have to do is figure out a way to understand that a person's faith isn't like joining a club or taking an elective course at the local junior college. It is a deep rooted integral part of not only what a person thinks and believes but also who he is. It is very much an identity thing. A way to explain it would be to compare it to the love a person has for their family members. They don't CHOOSE to love them and they can't UNCHOOSE to love them. It is not a voluntary thought or action, it is a PART OF THEM. Tthat is the reason that bashing someone's religious beliefs is so offensive. You might as well be punching their mom in the face.
With that in mind, it is easier to understand that people who do believe in a particular faith, want to practice that faith. It is probably called "practicing" because we will never get it right! The standards are just too high. And where Christians are concerned, the standards are meant to be too high. If living a sinless Christian life was easy, what would make us turn to Jesus? Jesus is the factor that makes up for our shortcomings. Without Him, we don't get through the gates.
So, on to your question. What harm? What if you were in posession of the knowledge of the secret to enjoy eternal life in Heaven. If you told no one, the harm would be that you were selfish with it and didn't help anybody by sharing it. On the other side of the coin is, "What is the good from being silent?" How does being silent, praise or worship your god? If you are ashamed to tell others, shouldn't God be ashamed of you?
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Originally posted by Boondawg: Why is it necessary to convince others? Is it recruitment?
See, I think that's the rub with religion. They all seem to want converts and strive for growth. Why? Is it merely a construct to group, to build mass. But why?
Christians don't have to convince or recruit. Many Christians actually don't know that. It's not really their fault. Many preachers won't tell his followers that out of fear they may stop "spreading the gospel" all together. Spreading the gospel means to tell the good news (about Jesus).
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Originally posted by Boondawg:
For strength? Power? Because if so, I would say be very aware of anything concentrated on the accumulation of power over others.
Why join a club? Why join a forum? Why live in a city? Why be on a team? Could the answer be unity? I think God knows it is much easier to behave a certain way when you are around other people who also want to exibit the same behaviors. In other words, it's easier to be a Christian around other Christians. Not only will each member feel more at ease trying to do what they think is right but they will also receive additional direction and correction if they get something wrong.
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[B]Originally posted by Boondawg:[/B
Why does religion require missionaries?
Where Christianity is concerned, missionaries go out into the world, sometimes to remote locations for the simple reason to tell people about Jesus. To illistrate His goodness and love and caring, they often work very hard to help the people with whatever problems they may be facing. The thought process is, "you may be the only chance that person has to see Jesus". Jesus can use our work and words to spread His message. Once the message is heard, it is up to that person to come willingly. That's the only way it works.
A fable is a fable. If it still teaches the lesson than it is still an effective story. I would concentrate on the importance of the message and explain because of the times it was written in is why it was told in this way.
I get that, but the problem with this movie from a Christian standpoint is that they changed or eliminated so many of the things that glorify God. For instance (copied from page 1 with notes added)
They appeared to build the ark in a matter of months or a few years. Noah's son's didn't age and the youngest looked to be about 10 years old. - Noah actually spent about 100 years building the ark. That is a long time to work on something and keep the faith in the reason for it.
Noah almost didn't let himself or his family use the ark. It seemed he thought the ark was for the animals only. - This implies that God didn't promise to save Noah's family. If Noah didn't expect to be saved in the flood, why would he work for 100 years just have his whole family destroied just like the other people who wouldn't obey God. Noah would have told God to make His own ark!
The "king" was able to climb the outside of the ark and bust in. - This implies that a man can enter God's realm by his own effort and in complete defiance of God's will.
All the animals were put into hybernation by the smoke from the magic rocks. - This implies that God wasn't in control on the ark. That the animals had to be sedated to get along, etc.
The window was in the side of the ark. - This allowed Noah and his family to look outward and see God's wrath. They were being saved from it. They were not to look at it in a similar way as Lot's wife wasn't supposed to turn and look.
They closed the door themselves. - The Bible tells us that God (or the Lord) can't remember how it was phrased, shut them inside the ark. This represents how God embraces us and protects us.
They barely got inside before the waters rushed in. - The Bible tells us they entered the ark a week early. This was another test of Noah's faith as he sat there wondering if the rain would come. It also allowed them to safely enter and be sealed inside with no attacks by people wanting to get in.
God only spoke to Noah through visions in his dreams. He never got any specific instructions. - The Bible tells us that God gave Noah very specific instructions on the size and materials he was to use in building the ark. This direct communication shows the closeness that God has to His children. Noah trusted and believed God's plan and instructions and by his faith, he was saved.
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 04-01-2014).]
I agree those things would be troublesome. At first. Then they just become a part of life. Seen one land slide, ya seen them all. (not really ) I would think at least after a few generations of witnessing these things, the awe would dissipate.
I think the basic question of "why?" would still remain. That one question has motivated much of human societal evolution for a very long time in my opinion.
Originally posted by Boondawg: If a person kept his beliefs to himself, lived by it and never spoke of it to another, where could be the harm?
See, I think that's the rub with religion. They all seem to want converts and strive for growth. But why? .
If you saw and heard people being in pain and empty, saying things like meaningless and teaching nothing is of value, living from short term fix to short term fix, crashing and crying when they are alone. If you had the answer to many problems and you kept it to yourself it would be strange wouldnt it? *edit, Boost said this too before me.
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Originally posted by Boondawg: You can safely assume you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do... .
Why many peoples God is themselves.
For people who believe and follow the teachings of Christ: "Love your enemy" not hate.
(Not saying you are) But many people who are so staunchly against a faith or religion are against the shortcomings of man, not the ideal, the standard of perfection which is the truth behind it.
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I think the basic question of "why?" would still remain. That one question has motivated much of human societal evolution for a very long time in my opinion.
Sure. Why? The basic question that defines human curiosity. People want to know stuff. The question still remains, how did ALL of the separated groups of people, all over the face of the Earth, ALL come up with the same explanation of "a higher being"?
It is not logical to suggest that every culture out there came up with the same expalantion simply out of their imagination. I think there is a God and He has let His presence be known to people down through time.
Originally posted by theBDub: I think the basic question of "why?" would still remain. That one question has motivated much of human societal evolution for a very long time in my opinion.
They do say there is a God sized hole, an innate longing in our hearts.
As a kid, I believed in the possibility of aliens. I still love alien movies to this day. I don't dis-like the concept. What made me stop believing in that possibility was when someone asked me a question. "If there are people on other planets, did Jesus have to go there and die for their sins also?"
That question opened my eyes to the fact that when Jesus paid that price, he did it for all the sins of all the people from that point on. I'm sure God had enough trouble watching His Son die in the terrible way that even athiests agree that happened. God would not allow Jesus to suffer like that again. To have Him do it again would only mean that He didn't do it well enough the first time. He did it perfectly. No need for a do-over.
Now you are mixing logic with faith!
While it is logic it is not useful or impartial logic. You have led it around the way it it fits your view making it useless at best. Trust me on this and don't make a big deal out of it but you should just stick with faith.
While it is logic it is not useful or impartial logic. You have led it around the way it it fits your view making it useless at best. Trust me on this and don't make a big deal out of it but you should just stick with faith.
I don't find them mutually exclusive. I'll just stick to being me. How'd that be?
This actually makes sense but in a different way. If I was the leader of a youth group, for instance, I might study the flood story and then take the kids to see the movie. I would ask them to make a list of all the things they notice that are different from the Bible. Could be a great learning experience. Not only about the Bible but to seriously question the stuff coming out of Hollywood.
Yup... I think it would be good for a group to talk about and to compare notes. What I think of when reading a book is different that what someone else thinks as they read the same book. It is how we envision that story and both of us believe we are correct in our vision. Same with movies...it is one person's vision, but that doesn't make it right or wrong, just their view. In this movie I don't believe he says the flood is from dino pee, or from ice caps melting... it is still God's work, just through the eyes of the director.
Negative. You must "be" along one of the pre-accepted lines of being. Individualist thought means enemy. You must seek acceptance to be recognized as sentient, and there-by of value...
Negative. You must "be" along one of the pre-accepted lines of being. Individualist thought means enemy. You must seek acceptance to be recognized as sentient, and there-by of value...
P.S. And don't smoke dope for lunch.
I figured I'd get the clapping smiley from you for saying I was just going to be me.
What I think of when reading a book is different that what someone else thinks as they read the same book. It is how we envision that story and both of us believe we are correct in our vision. Same with movies...it is one person's vision, but that doesn't make it right or wrong, just their view. In this movie I don't believe he says the flood is from dino pee, or from ice caps melting... it is still God's work, just through the eyes of the director.
Not too sure about that. Its one thing to add stuff, embelish a bit, but another to change things fundamentally. Which is probably the point. Maybe Hollywood is moving from only making fun of things, making light of things, to being intentionally misleading.
"2013 and 2014 will see a large number of Christian-themed movies hit the big screen and one of the most anticipated of them is Noah, directed by Darren Aronofsky and starring Oscar-winner Russell Crowe. While there will be much hype and excitement for this movie, the early reports indicate that the Noah film will not be in line with the Biblical account of Noah’s ark and the flood, but instead will push a liberal, political message focused on the environmental agenda. Noah as The “First Environmentalist”?
In the biblical account, God is a God who is not inscrutably silent but who reveals himself by word and covenant to man. In the biblical account, God is a holy judge who punishes wickedness yet saves those who trust in Him and blesses generations that follow afterwards. By all indications, this is not the picture which Noah the motion picture presents.
Rather than follow the Biblical account, Aronofsky is taking the story in his own direction to suit his own environmentalist agenda. There are many glaring differences between the Biblical narrative and Aronfosky’s version.In the movie, God is portrayed as an angry Creator who wants to punish humanity permanently for not taking good enough care of plants and animals. Humans have compassion, while God in the film only has irrational wrath. This type of gnostic interpretation of Scripture that turns the Biblical account upside down to cast the God of the Bible in a bad light, has been done in many Hollywood films (we featured an article on the movie Legion that used this same tactic with a plot centered on the book of Revelation). This film reflects a lack of faith and promotes the idea of doubting God, rather than believing."
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-01-2014).]
You must "be" along one of the pre-accepted lines of being. Individualist thought means enemy. You must seek acceptance to be recognized as sentient, and there-by of value...
When you say these things, what are you referring to, just society in general?
Not too sure about that. Its one thing to add stuff, embelish a bit, but another to change things fundamentally. Which is probably the point. Maybe Hollywood is moving from only making fun of things, making light of things, to being intentionally misleading.
Quoted for truth! That is exactly the way Satan likes to work.
The standards are just too high. And where Christians are concerned, the standards are meant to be too high. If living a sinless Christian life was easy, what would make us turn to Jesus? Jesus is the factor that makes up for our shortcomings. Without Him, we don't get through the gates.
