Warhammer, It's really hard to show good pics right now, the entire car is disassembled for final detail items. Hopefully some of the following will help
Mr.PBody, good eye, and by all means get with us at a Bluegrass Fieros meet. Email or pm Ron aka Blackrams. The LT1 is using stock headers, which feed 2 1/4" pipes that feen into a 3" pipe in their stock form. So, I used 2 1/4" aluminized pipe to fabricate the exhaust system you see.
It has "true duals", that is each side feeds into a totally seperate exhaust system. I used Mandrel Bending Solutions in PA ( I think) as a source, and purchased a few of their multiple angle bend pieces. You get a chunk of pipe with a 45 bend, a 180 bend and various straight pieces....great for parting a system together.
I route all of the exhaust so that it does not run underneath the engine or cradle, and so I had to come up with the extreme reversal which you saw. In almost all cases, I was able to use the mandrel bent curves, so exhaust flow was not a concern. When I got to that particular area though, I was able to increase the cross section of the pipe, hopefully enough to not create a significant backpressure.
Both pipes ran to a 2 1/4" in/out dual chambered glasspack muffler from MBS. This was to reproduce the Pantera style of exhaust, as far as looks go. Turns out that those are really sweet glasspacs. They have a real mellow sound, not at all like your average Cherry Bomb. Both Blackrams and Scrabblegod have heard it, and both remarked on the mellow note.
Also, I plan to eventually replace the glasspacks with Supertrapps, but for now we're in the "let's see" stage
Also, the entire exhaust system is situated so that the rear clip can pivot back, with no interfearance. Works out real neat with the electric actuators. And again, many thanks to the forum members who helped me understand the relay circuts that control the actuators. You've really got to see these things, they are a hoot!
BTW, that's a tarp on the Pantero. We've had some wild a$$ed winds around here of late.
As I mentioned, the choptop Pantera is undergoing final details. The exhaust will be finished this weekend. Here you see the system. 2" pipes feed off the manifolds, stock crossover pipe. Both sides run as true duals untill they come together in the 2 1/2" pipe that crosses the backside of the cradle. The turnouts are where the Supertrapps attach.
I started out by attaching the Supertrapps where they needed to be on the body, and fabricated the 2 1/2" pipe, mostly to set and keep the proper angle of the Supertrapps. I had planned to then cut the pipe in half and run two seperate true dual exhausts. But it occured to me to do it as you see here, letting the 2 1/2" pipe also act as a balance tube. We will see.
In the above pic you may have noticed the wheels
These are Axis Widebody rims. 18x8 front and 18x9 rear both et20. I have mounted 55 series rubber, because I wanted to maintain the "retro" look as much as I could, plus I'm just not a big fan of 35 or 40 series tires.
235/55 front and 285/55 rear. I'm really pleased with these rims, they fit the wheel flares perfectly. Back when I sculpted and molded the flares, I didn't have wheels to work out to....I just took a shot in the dark. Lucky I guess, these are off the shelf rims and quite affordable. They have a cool spoke design and a nice deep lip that gives them a deep dish look. Just right for a Pantera.
These pics jsut don't do the rims justice. The front will recieve the lowering springs from the Fierostore, this weekend, and they should look just right. The rears are up on stock suspension, and look great.
Rjblaze, kits are available at those same prices, nothing has changed. If your at Carlisle or the 25 Show in Detroit this summer, you are welcome to check 'em out.
I was tempted to say the wheels on the choptop didn't look right... but no need now. Those will be bad ass. I figured the Pantero exhuast was function over form and performance but I decided to ask anyways. Lemme get a car running and lets get these damn winds to stop (I swear my dog flew across the yard today) and I'll get with ron about the next meeting. I still get you guy's emails so I am sort of in the loop.
These are Axis Widebody rims. 18x8 front and 18x9 rear both et20. I have mounted 55 series rubber, because I wanted to maintain the "retro" look as much as I could, plus I'm just not a big fan of 35 or 40 series tires.
David Breeze
Dave, don't tease us like this. get those wheels and tires on the car and give us a nice shot of it, from that point I'm sure that somebody will photoshop it to completion.
BTW lookin' good.
When you turn on your car, does it return the favor. Joe
Warhammer, About those updates...To be honest, the recent "climate" on this forum has made me hesitant to post. I've seen 'em come and seen 'em go in twenty years of Fiero ownership. The petty bickering is one thing (it will go). But some of the recent aditudes seen regarding the French kitbuilders, and replica builders in general...well.
On a positive note, a couple of Pantera owners have recently contacted me. Somehow they found this thread, and they have expressed a suprising level of enthusiasm and support. In light of the above, it's really good to be so well recieved by the Pantera community.
So, DL10, it's up to us to preserve the species, I guess. I appreciate your kudos, and look forward to seeing you in Detroit this year. I know what a super job you do with your cars, and I just hope I can raise to the bar.
Joe, about those wheels. The "meat" was such that I could only get a pinky finger between the tire and the stock spring. So:
These are 12" springs and 7" sleeves. The stock ride height seemed perfect with those 18"x285 tires. I just didn't want to accidently blow out a tire and ruin a rim. BTW, I didn't like the way the top of the spring was free to move, so I welded a sleeve to the underside of the top part. You can just get a peek in this pic:
One problem I encountered was finding the correct poly bushings for the rear swaybar. One kit I got had both a 7/8" and a 23mm bushing in the same kit. The 7/8" fit great, and I simply filed down an edge on the 23 till it had the same fit. When they are bolted up they fit fine.
I finally solved the windshield wiper situation. After moving the entire assembly over by 5 1/2", the driver's side post sat too low. I finally found this post in a Chevy truck. identical lever arm, but the two ball joints were situated upside down. I ground out the welds from the backside, center punched them out, repositioned and then welded back. Now we're in business.
Other than that, the entire chassis has now been scrubbed, wire brushed, and repainted. Right now I'm doing final fit and routing checks of the engine bay. Most of the firewalls got a layer of aluminized fiberglass cloth, and all of the hoses are getting a firesleeve.
This thing is looking great. I have been a Pantera fan since I got to drive one when I was in college in the early 80's. Keep up the good work. If you don't mind me asking, what rate rear spring did you use? I would love to build one of these in the future!
rjblaze, I know the feeling. The first time I saw a Pantera, I was a 15 year old kid, riding around one night with some pals on bicycles. We stopped into a gas station for a Coke, and these two Panteras pulled in for a fill up. We were all over those cars! It made a very lasting impression.
The above springs are 275#, and they came from Speedway. Obviously, they are working with a 4.9/Allante/4t60e conversion. And of course, I haven't had them out on the road yet
The coilovers on the yellow Pantera are 10" 300#. The entire coilover kit is a Held kit I got years ago. And, those springs are working with an LT1/thm325 conversion.....both a heavier and a tail-heavier conversion. I have had this set on the road, and it seems fine. To get what I considered the right stance or wheel well clearance, the adjusters are past the midway point on the sleeves, about the upper 2/3 position. That's why I went with 12" & 7" on the 4.9 set.
So, DL10, it's up to us to preserve the species, I guess. I appreciate your kudos, and look forward to seeing you in Detroit this year. I know what a super job you do with your cars, and I just hope I can raise to the bar.
David Breeze
I think you will raise the bar several notches before you are done..
All I ever did was keep them clean. ……….I don’t have the skills it takes to build a car like yours. I haven’t done much with the Predator for several years. Priorities change. I’m not sure if I will be able to make it the 25th..
As it's getting warmer, the time to give the prototype a fresh paint job approaches. I like the current yellow, which is a PPG Subaru Yellow. Meanwhile, I got some new shoes for it, General Altimax HP 50 profile. After I lay into the wheels with Mother's, and the paint job is finished, I'll mount these.
The LT1 is running nicely. Things I'd like to get done before the 25th Show are 1. relocate battery to front 2. relocate the c500 and associated wiring to inside the cab 3. relocate the air/water seperator to where the battery is now 4. temporarily replace the AC pump with a delete idler 5. fabricate a delete idler for the power steering pumpf
I have the AC delete pully. It's actually a stock item.
Not using the PS pump, I've been geting by just running a couple of hoses to a remote fill tank, and I think the pump has been running wide open since there's obviously nothing for it to be controlled by. I think a similar delete pully can be contrived, or perhaps somehow use the existing pump as a pully mount. Warmer weather will tell.
The real work on the prototype has centered almost entirely around the axles.
I've based thie entire drivetrain build mostly on Joe Wynman's CD . And of course what I could glean from other builders and folks like Rockcrawl. There is precious little other info out there. If you've ever read JW's CD, you will know what I mean when I say there are many mistakes and omissions in it, it's like a nice first rough draft.
JW's premise was that you could use the stock Eldo/Riv/Toro axles, and the knuckle and hub bearing, and disc brakes of a '91 Oldsmobile Calais. You got a 115mm bolt pattern was the only drawback. And that did work, as far as fitting and fabricating things went. But all along, I was leary of how the outer cv of the axle abutted the bearings.
First trip to the junkyard revealed that there was no such thing as a Calais with a 115 bolt pattern. But there was a '91 Ciera, so I thought mabey JW had printed another mistake. So this shows a '91 Ciera knuckle and brakes. It fits the Fiero control arm just fine, and you get a bit larger brakes, something like Beretta brakes. The difference is the massive size of the bearing, it really is nice.
And this is the bearing, a 513016K. The splines accept the Toro axle great. Problem is the "shoulder" of the outer cv does not butt up against the bearing when torqued down.
And here is a Ciera axle on top, Toro axle below.
A bit of a close up of the outer cv's. When torqued into the bearing, the shoulder never contacted the bearing. The two sets of splines would begin to draw up against each other. I verified this when I torqued down the junkyard bearings, the first time, and about a mile down the road they began to sing, because the were being pressed apart.
So after fighting this for a couple of years, I gave in and called a reputable cv axle specialty shop, somewhere in the eastern US. I won't say their name. Their tech guy said he had made up axles for 13 of these particular conversions. He said to send him my axles and one bearing, and he would swap out whatever it took to make it fit.
I did, and he called me saying " you know what you sent me fits perfectly, I'll test run your axles and measure the fitments, but your a-ok." I made sure he understood about the splines being the only point of contact, and he swore that that was the way it should be. "If the shoulder of the cv butts up to the bearing, it will destroy the bearing".
Ok, I got my axles back and put them into a brand new set of bearings, and prompltly pressed them apart, right there.
So I gave up. Well, not completely, I did buy the Ciera axle you saw, just to se how it fit the bearing. Right into the splines, and smack up against the shoulders and bearings, just like whenever you've put a Fiero axle into it's bearing.
There may be a way to transplant a Ciera outer onto a Toro axle, I tried and they are different sizes. Some day, when I'm feeling rich and famous, I may ask some cv specialty axle shop to look into it. Baloney.
So I'm now in the process of building axles like Rockcrawl, Buildamonster, and others have done. Not quite as elegant as cross-fitting parts, but extremely functional.
This involves taking the Toro inner and having a machine shop make 1" thick plates with the correct bolt pattern to duplicat this.
This becomes the innermost side of the new inner cv. The bolt pattern bolts up to the output shaft of the differential.
Next, the Fiero inner cv from a manual trans, driver's side (left) is provided to the machine shop, and the splines are turned down to yield a smooth shaft. A hole a few thousands larger is drilled in the center of the 1" plates, to accept the Fiero "tulip".
This is a new Cardone (Autozone) axle. I am using new to avoid the possability of wierd sizing with reman axle parts. Notice how much more robust the new tulip is? I guess that's nice.
Along the way, I did try and see if by chance the Fiero axle would just fit into the Toro tulip, and make life easier. Nope, slightly bigger. Toro on left, Fiero on right.
So then I'll take the plate & tulip assembly and dry fit it to locate how far out of the plate the tulip should extend to achieve the mid-point of axle travel in the tulip. Then back to the machine shop for final welding and remachining if necessary.
What we're doing is putting these three parts together
Believe me, when it's done, I'll update you.
David Breeze
[This message has been edited by opm2000 (edited 04-13-2008).]
David, You probably thought of this, but can you take the Fiero rollers off the tulip end and fit it to the Toro axle? How about the other end? Disassemble the axle end totally and swap the parts. That's what I'm doing to mix and match my Aurora axles with my Celebrity hubs.
RCR, Your point is well taken, and yes, that's pretty much what I've been trying. I've tried measuring and/or swaping the various components of axles to see if I can come up with a proper fit. But no luck yet.
A couple of resources I've been plowing thru are the catalogues or listings available at
lots of good info there. And many thanks to Blackrams for supplying "donor" cv axles which I've disassembled, tried fitting, and put back together, and returned to the store. Hmmm.
The tech guy at the cv shop I had mentioned can put a Fiero outer onto a Toro axle. He uses what he called a special cage that compensates for the two size differences between the fiero cage and the Toro axle. I may go that route one day, but you are still left with the smaller Fiero outer and Fiero bearing. That, plus I just don't know what to think about the advice he gave me after our last exchange.
The comparatively massive size of the Toro outer and the Ciera bearing are Nice, just what you'd like to use for a high hp application.
For now, fabricating a Fiero axle that will mount to the 325 differential will have to do.
I had a guy over on the kitcar website build a set of axles that used an S-10?? outer hub and CV housing mating up to a Fiero inner setup.
Look under "Funnywheels goes topless" in the technical section over there and I am pretty sure he explains what he has done. I remember reading it somewhere over there anway. If not, PM or email me and I will pass you on to him as he will be very willing to explain what he did to mate everything up.
I also saw another guy use a Corvette outer hub and CV housing mated to the Fiero shaft but I can't remember where I saw that one.
- the machine shop guy took a weeks vacation, but he's back and called late yesterday that the axle bases were ready to be picked. These will require dry fitting with the cv axles in place to locate the relation of the bases & cv tulips. Then back to the machine shop where they will be preheated, welded, post heated, and re-machined.
- I'd noticed a squeal from the engine at mid rpms, and just asumed it was the power steering pump, since it was not in use and allways circulating a wee bit of fluid thru itself. At first I planned to remove it and fabricate a delete idler.
In the proccess, I had to remove the alternator, and a quick hand-spin of it revealed that it was the squealing culprit, and had to be replaced.
Long story short, I removed this stuff
- also removed but not shown above were the alternator and the electric air pump and bracket. This stuff weighed in well over 50 pounds.
- and I looked at what was available on ebay, and just made my own set of low mount alternator brackets. Took only a short while to figure out the actual brackets & bushings, but a while longer to figure out the right alternator, belt and balancer pulley.
- to make all this work, I had to switch from the shorter Camaro balancer, to the taller Corvette balancer.
- If any LT1 guys want to make their own brackets, I can send a xeroxed tracing of the brackets with dimensions.....sorry, no cad files.
- while I was in there, I addressed the occasionally damp water pump weep hole, which I was trying to ignore. Good thing - I found the pump bearings totally shot. So I replaced the pump with a reman unit. Since my optispark seems to be just fine, keeping the water pump in good health is very important. It's an LT1 thing
- I had mechanically & electrically installed the engine and wanted to proceed on to the final bits of bodywork. But I wanted to make sure the engine was going to work first. So I fired it up. Boy was that fun. ( is there a symbol for chagrin or intense saracasim ? )
- It ran, and quite well. Considering I'm no electrical genius at all, that in itself is really quite amazing. And absolutely no leaks anywhere, and a nice smooth idle.
- But it clacked like the dickens. I only ran it for a few 10 second intervals. I listened to it with a stethascoope, had my redneck neighbor listen to it, and consulted with good buddies John Stricker and Jean aka Scrabblegod.
- This is a crate engine, so it may have been just setting for about 16 years or so. After consulting all around, I pulled the noisy side valve cover. It was dry inside, and only the red assembly lube was visible, which I had used when I installed the Allante intake.
- Removing the upper intake and then the other valve cover, I found the same thing. Very close inspection of pushrods, rockers, springs, valves, bridges, etc. revealled no apparent wear, breaks, or clues.
- Removing the distributor and running the oil pump with a drill made the drill turn slowly, and start to smoke and heat up. Hmmmm.
- Removing the lower manifold exposed the lifters. All of the pushrods came out with a bit of oil in them, but nowhere near their full amount. And the lifters came right out, they were externally well oiled, and looked like they were machined yesterday. I rolled the pushrods on a plate of glass, and none were bent.
- Trying the electric drill again, but with the lifters out was quite different. The oil pump spun like mad, circulating oil everywhere.
- So a quick reconsult, and the verdict/hope is: the engine didn't have time to pump up the lifters.
- Before reassembly, I'm taking each lifter apart to verify it is not internally stuck, blocked or damaged.
- Each unit is taken down to this point and enough pblaster shot into the plunger to allow verifying that the spring & ball valve works and is clear. Then refilled with oil in and the air purged out, and put back into the block. I'll pre-fill the pushrods, and use lavish amounts of assembly lube again. Fun, fun.
I found this site while researching how to do fiberglass projects and have been lurking here for the past four months....
I have learned more about working with fiberglass in this thread than anywhere else. OPM200, your pictures and descriptions have been so helpful...So thanks.
Here is the project I started in February.....It is a cargo box I designed to work with the trailer hitch on the Plymouth Prowler.
I started with sheets of foam insulation from Home Depot that I hot glued into a large block. I carved that into shape, and covered it in fiberglass mat, and then finished the shape and smoothed it out with bondo. It took me about 200 hours just to get the plug done. I made moldes from the plug and the picture above is the first box I pulled from those moldes.... This is the first time I've made anything from fiberglass and I am very happy with the outcome.
The funny thing is, the reason I stumbled across this thread was because I also own a Pantera..
I've really enjoyed seeing your replica come alive!! Thanks again, Brian in CT
Brian, welcome to the forum. And I'm glad this thread has been of some help to you.
It certianly looks like you did a great job with the Prowler luggage box. It looks perfectly styled for the Prowler's lines. Way to go.
BTW, your other roller looks pretty cool, too. It's interesting how a few other true Pantera owners have found this thread. They have all been quite interested, appreciative, and helpfull. Something of a different note, compared to Ferrari owners and such. Ken Green and Kirk Evans of Amerisport are a couple of your fellow Pantera owners following this thread.
Well, a short update.
I finally got the axle base plates back from the machine shop.
These are made to bolt to the tranny output shafts, and are center drilled to accept the cv axle inner tulip joint. I have to determine how deep the tulip sets in the base plate. I spent a whole week measuring and remeasuring axle lengths, as the entire suspension travels thru it's full range.
I removed the Ciera knuckles and bearings, and the coilovers. On went the stock Fiero knuckles and bearings, and a worn out set of oem shocks, drilled with two vent holes to allow easy up/down movement of the suspension.
Now I could get a dead measure of required axle length at any point of the travel of the controll arm. The idea is to position the tulip at a mid point of the axle length values, so it has room to compress or lengthen.
And thanks to Paul up in Cincy. He tipped Blackrams to a 91 Allante, at a local Pick & Pull. Blackrams couldn't move on it, so i snagged it. Turns out they were having a buy one, get one free day, so for $72 I got the entire conversion.
David Breeze
[This message has been edited by opm2000 (edited 05-26-2008).]
Both Panteras are progressing nicely. I don't plan to show any pics or updates untill just before the 25th Aniversary Show. Plans are to have both cars at the 25th.
Yeah, I remember you saying you like those. Actually, they were the hit of our display. One kid, (I think it was Jonathan's son) was going to ride the deck lid up till I told him the last kid that did it landed on the other side of the big Marriot sign as in catapult. His eyes went very wide.
Ron
[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 08-07-2008).]
Yeah, I remember you saying you like those. Actually, they were the hit of our display. One kid, (I think it was Jonathan's son) was going to ride the deck lid up till I told him the last kid that did it landed on the other side of the big Marriot sign. His eyes went very wide.
Ron
Yes. I like anything that is tweaked and this guys Fiero is tweaked to the max! I was looking for the pics on my camera, but I somehow lost them. The operation of them would be very helpful for I'm wanting a set for my rear 350Z hatch. I did take notice of its operations. I already have a set for the fronts, but I'm wanting another for the rear and need to see the mounting locations.
The yellow Pantera is wired with a simple switch thru two relays, as suggested by most actuator vendor info sheets.
The Choptop Pantera (although just direct connected to a battery at the 25th) is wired into the shaved door controller. The above link is a good intro into understanding how that circut works. End result is a key fob with an up button & down button, and a manual sitch located on the dash, or maybey outside, somewhere.
The mechanical end is really simple, once you locate your mounting points.
I'll try to snag some pics tomorrow morning, and give a brief rundown on how to locate your mounting points.
BTW, I really enjoyed the 25th show. I had about the second and third worst looking cars on the field, so I felt somewhat humbled. But I really got a kick out of meeting all the folks I've met on Pennock's and online. Great bunch of Fiero folks.
Check out this link for a primer discussion on wiring.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...060811-2-073239.html The Choptop Pantera (although just direct connected to a battery at the 25th) is wired into the shaved door controller. The above link is a good intro into understanding how that circut works. End result is a key fob with an up button & down button, and a manual sitch located on the dash, or maybey outside, somewhere.
I'll try to snag some pics tomorrow morning, and give a brief rundown on how to locate your mounting points. David Breeze
Yes. Mine too has dual controllers aided by two auto position settings.
I just found this thread. An impressive project to say the least. Any pictures of the final product available?
Just spoke with Dave, he's trying to put something together but, I'm not sure we know exactly what the final product is going to be.
I know that next is the roadster project, assuming nothing else happens and that's still the designer's concept or vision, nothing on paper yet. I can't draw worth a darn.
I'm using Spal # LACT12 in all cases. Choice was highly driven by cost factors.
These units have a 12" stroke collapsed length = 16.26" extended length = 28.07" average speed = 0.5"/second dynamic load = 110 lbs
most similar types will show some sort of table, comparing most of these values.
Many are available with adjustable stopping points of some type, such as potentiometers, but mine are strictly on/off.
There is a clutch between the motor & shaft, and at least when closing, it will pull up snug and stop.
To install something like this, you need to look for an area where gas struts could be installed. Measure the closed distance and the open distance between your proposed mounting points.
I then made up a sliding or adjustable measuring device, using two long paint stirring paddles. mark them with the collapsed length, and again with the extended length. You can now similate the relative movement of the actuator and come close to finding your ideal mounting points.
So did this car ever get finished. I just read the whole thread and wanted to see the final product. I talked to Ron last night and he told me about this car and your great work. Hope to see both soon.
.
His eyes went very wide. 
The operation of them would be very helpful for I'm wanting a set for my rear 350Z hatch. I did take notice of its operations. I already have a set for the fronts, but I'm wanting another for the rear and need to see the mounting locations.
