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Calif Kid............................ by rogergarrison
Started on: 01-25-2003 11:04 PM
Replies: 542 (47014 views)
Last post by: MinnGreenGT on 04-27-2017 08:58 AM
California Kid
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Report this Post06-07-2008 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Transfer of pictures from my other post:









When the engine is installed in the car, the engine will be broken in on the dyno, oil changed, then put on the dyno again for tuning. The guy doing the engine/computer tuning is an Engineer at the GM Tech Center who specializes in Engine Computer Management, and already knows the workings of the FAST ECU system. This came about as he is very good friends with the owner of the Shop. The tuner also has a twin turbo Corvette they recently put on the dyno and pulled 900 whp so I know I'm in good hands with this project.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-08-2008).]

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Report this Post06-07-2008 07:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DementiaClick Here to Email DementiaSend a Private Message to DementiaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That is one purdy motor. Oops I mean engine. What heads are you running?

[This message has been edited by Dementia (edited 06-07-2008).]

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California Kid
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Report this Post06-07-2008 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
A shot of the ported exhaust ports, we checked the Sanderson header match to the ports on the heads, and the seal pads on the headers couldn't be better. We had iniital concerns that the Sanderson's would choke the ports on the heads. While I'm not that thrilled with the Sanderson's from a design standpoint, they do fit well, and we'll let the dyno be the judge on well they perform with the rest of my exhaust system. If the numbers don't come in where I expect them to be, I've already got a contact for a complete fabricaton of a new system.





A few more new items being added to the car:



12 inch Corvette rotors, ordered black just to be different.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-08-2008).]

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California Kid
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Report this Post06-07-2008 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Dementia:

That is one purdy motor. Oops I mean engine. What heads are you running?



Thanks,

PROCOMP ALUMINUM HEADS, 200CC RUNNER, 2.02 INTAKES 1.6 EXHAUST, 5 ANGLE VALVE JOB. MILD STAGE 2 PORT & POLISH INTAKE AND EXHAUST PORTS, ASSEMBLED WITH COMP CAMS SPRINGS No. 986-16 TO MATCH CAM, ROCKER STUDS, PLATES, + 200 MOLY HARDENED PUSH RODS, AND HYDRAULIC LIFTERS.

The engine builder bought the raw castings from PROCOMP, he did all the machining, and Stage 2 port and polish. His work has already been proven on builds.
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Report this Post06-08-2008 06:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AusFieroClick Here to visit AusFiero's HomePageClick Here to Email AusFieroSend a Private Message to AusFieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Wow, that is one sweet looking engine. Can't wait to see it in the car.
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Report this Post06-08-2008 08:02 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCREdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:

8 DOOMED STAINLESS STEEL SCREEN FILTERS FOR RAM TUBES



That sounds ominous.

Awesome buildup Kid. Hope to see it at the 25'th.
Bob
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California Kid
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Report this Post06-08-2008 05:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks guys !!!

At this point I really hoping to have it running by the 25th show, keep finding more to do as we progress with the transplant. Still brain-storming a location for the new ECU, wires may not be long enough to put under console like the last one. Have new black carpet for trunk, but I'll have to get over to shop, undo MSD multi spark unit from trunk wall, remove carpet to use as pattern cut for new, cut trunk vent holes on out sides of trunk (reduce trunk heat for MSD), put new carpet in, re-install MSD, and add vent grills. Clean paint cradle, install new shift cables, etc., etc., the list goes on and on. I'm trying to do some of the work to keep the labor bill out of the clouds, but it's not easy with the shop closed weekends, and most of this extra stuff has to be done while the car is apart (easier).

We had to order thicker intake manifold gaskets to port match to the heads, the vertical fit was slightly off, but will come directly in line with the thicker gasket set.
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California Kid
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Report this Post06-21-2008 01:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Here are some progress update pictures:







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Report this Post06-21-2008 01:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

California Kid

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Capt Fiero
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Report this Post06-21-2008 01:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Capt FieroClick Here to visit Capt Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Capt FieroSend a Private Message to Capt FieroEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Damn that is sexy. When you dyno it on the stand, you are gonna have to hold a mic up to the intake horns and get some sound and video clips showing all the throttle plates opening and closing. Its kinda odd finding this topic today, as Fire451 and I were just talking about this style of fuel injection. He just finished building a GM Performance Parts ZZ383 Crate motor Fiero for a customer. They used a TPI style fuel injection on it and are already wondering if it is holding back the motor.

------------------
85GT,93 Eldorado 4.9, 5spd Dual O2 Custom Chip, Custom Exhaust. MSD Everything Capt Fiero --- My Over View Cadero Pics Yellow 88GT 5spd Factory Stock.

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California Kid
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Report this Post06-21-2008 02:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Capt Fiero:

Damn that is sexy. When you dyno it on the stand, you are gonna have to hold a mic up to the intake horns and get some sound and video clips showing all the throttle plates opening and closing. Its kinda odd finding this topic today, as Fire451 and I were just talking about this style of fuel injection. He just finished building a GM Performance Parts ZZ383 Crate motor Fiero for a customer. They used a TPI style fuel injection on it and are already wondering if it is holding back the motor.



Thanks!

It's going directly into the car and engine will be broken in on chassis dyno with a base tune. Then we'll change the oil/filter, run another hour or two on throttle modulation up and down, and finally a dyno fine tune. I'm hoping this will happen by the end of next week, but there is still alot of work to do, and were taking the time to think things through with minor changes to the way this car was originally converted over (mostly electrical stuff).

I plan on being at the shop when they fire it for the first time and get some video, I purchase a new Nikon 550 compact that takes really good video for the size of the camera (pocket model), sound quality is pretty darn good as well. I even got a suction cup mount so I can get some exterior/interior on the road footage. Another fun toy to play with.

Your friends TPI engine needs the right cam and head porting to flow, they're pretty tricky about what they need. First Fuel Injection offers a complete TPI setup and cam recommendation to dyno 400, that takes alot of the guess work out of the equation, he may want to consider that option (the Corvette Forum should have results of a bunch of guys who just converted over the that system on a group buy).

Jury still out on the Sanderson's, but my dyno numbers with should tell us if they are holding the engine back. Time will tell, I don't think they're going to be a problem point for what I'm shooting for in the HP range. Will be watching fuel pressure as well, to see if my current pump is enough for the 36 lb injectors, or if we tear down for new half inch lines and higher flow/volume pump.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-21-2008).]

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Report this Post06-21-2008 02:51 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ErikClick Here to Email ErikSend a Private Message to ErikEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
with those heads and intake you should easily be able to dyno over 400hp with the proper cam and tuning ..BTW what are the cam specs?

nevermind I found them on the previous page

and ..My 4000th post ..woohoo!!!!

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 06-21-2008).]

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Report this Post06-21-2008 03:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Calikid, Those injectors look like the same injectors that are on my 3800SC. I am using 42.5 lb lucas injectors with the blue colored ring. You said those are 32lb injectors. Are they the 42.5lb lucas injectors?
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Report this Post06-21-2008 03:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by daniel87fierogt:

Calikid, Those injectors look like the same injectors that are on my 3800SC. I am using 42.5 lb lucas injectors with the blue colored ring. You said those are 32lb injectors. Are they the 42.5lb lucas injectors?


Typo'd, they are 36 lb Model ENL-36, Hilborn built and flowed the injection system with them, will fix the above post. They should give me the target HP I'm looking for with this build.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-21-2008).]

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Report this Post06-21-2008 03:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for daniel87fierogtClick Here to Email daniel87fierogtSend a Private Message to daniel87fierogtEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Whats your target hp with your build on those 36lb injectors. I almost thought you would be running something a little bigger than those. My 42.5 lb injectors on my 3800SC go static somewhere around 450 whp but i do have two less cyclinders than you do. What fuel pressure are you going to be running?
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Report this Post06-21-2008 04:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by daniel87fierogt:

Whats your target hp with your build on those 36lb injectors. I almost thought you would be running something a little bigger than those. My 42.5 lb injectors on my 3800SC go static somewhere around 450 whp but i do have two less cyclinders than you do. What fuel pressure are you going to be running?


My target when I planned the build is 450 engine HP, I really don't want to push higher than that due to the manual trans. I had Hilborn build the system for the 450 ballpark, and it can be "upped" easily should that time ever come into play. Hilborn told me to set the initial Fuel Pressure at 45 psi and monitor during dyno runs for any falloff, they feel I'll be OK with current pump due to short distance from tank to engine. Engine to same specificattons of my build has dyno'd 425 plus with carb intake and both Builder and Hilborn agree the 450 should be easily attainable with a good tune with the Hilborn. Time will tell the story, as I said earlier, I'm not shooting for the max HP that this setup is capable off.

edit to add comment on fuel pressure.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 06-21-2008).]

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California Kid
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Report this Post06-28-2008 11:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Update: All the wiring is finally figured out, last item to buy is a MSD Tach Adapt to get rpm signals to new computer, MSD multi spark 6AL, and Tach. We determined the best location for the new computer and MSD-6AL would be the rear wall of the trunk. The harness will route under the carpet and enter engine compartment just below the cruise control module, looks like everything will package very well without a huge band of black snakes being really obvious.

Engine/Cradle going into car early next week for final wiring hook up, wrapping of wires, work out coolant plumbing/fill/burp, run fuel lines/position regulator, prime the engine with oil, and put the battery back in. Plan is to due a short run on engine, check for leaks, then finish with clutch/brake hydraulic hook up/bleed, and hook up AC/charge system. Pending no issues, we'll put the new Corvette brake rotors on (if I get them drilled in time), then put the rest of the car back together, and have some fun on the dyno. I'm hoping to have a busy week and get this project running.

Update 8 July 08

The tall valve covers required for the new engine made this a pretty tight fit, but we made a couple changes to the chassis so they can still be removed without lowering engine. Finishing wire routing/wrapping, fuel/coolant pumbing, engine fitting did show us that the right two stacks will require removal of about half width of the reinforcement rail of the decklid inner panel (to have stacks exit out hole in decklid). While we can tune with stacks in place, surgery on the decklid will most likely occur after the 25th Show. Should run fine will screen over throttle bores (will check it out on dyno), until deck lid is modified.

I drilled the 12 inch Corvette Rotors tonight, so I get this brake conversion completed while the cars apart, and on the hoist.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-08-2008).]

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California Kid
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Report this Post07-12-2008 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Next week should be interesting, everything coming together great, and should be making some music very soon.









[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-12-2008).]

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Report this Post07-12-2008 09:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Found a guy in Warren, MI that makes filter screens for velocity stacks, he's never done a Siamese Hilborn setup, but have reviewed this sketch and said no problem. They will be domed bright stainless steel with molded red rubber base that fits around tube lips.



New Decals with the works with Paul McKibben @ Fierosales, here's some "preliminary" samples of the artwork we've worked on, made a couple changes, and job now going to printer.

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Report this Post07-12-2008 11:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ArchieClick Here to visit Archie's HomePageClick Here to Email ArchieSend a Private Message to ArchieEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Looks very nice.

Archie
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Report this Post07-12-2008 12:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Archie !

Quite a bit of work going into this, many small details to work through. I'm going to have to get drunk before I put the 4 inch hole saw to the deck lid, get's pretty complicated (not to mess it up), as I'm going to have to remove part on the "U" channel inner panel on the right side to get the two right stacks through. Will have to start hole in outer panel to get the pilot hole, the put extension on hole saw, and carefully start driling partical hole in the inner panel "U" channel till section is removed-then go back to outer panel.

I'll be removing 4 inch in height from the stack tubes (original length 12 inches), it will still put them about 3 inches above the deck lid when closed.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-12-2008).]

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Report this Post07-12-2008 04:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
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Report this Post07-13-2008 07:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for exoticseClick Here to Email exoticseSend a Private Message to exoticseEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:

Thanks Archie !

Quite a bit of work going into this, many small details to work through. I'm going to have to get drunk before I put the 4 inch hole saw to the deck lid, get's pretty complicated (not to mess it up), as I'm going to have to remove part on the "U" channel inner panel on the right side to get the two right stacks through. Will have to start hole in outer panel to get the pilot hole, the put extension on hole saw, and carefully start driling partical hole in the inner panel "U" channel till section is removed-then go back to outer panel.

I'll be removing 4 inch in height from the stack tubes (original length 12 inches), it will still put them about 3 inches above the deck lid when closed.



Cali kid why not just get a spare decklid somewhere and hack that one up to suit your needs ??

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Report this Post07-13-2008 09:36 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by exoticse:
Cali kid why not just get a spare decklid somewhere and hack that one up to suit your needs ??


While that's a great idea for a test run, it would be time consuming, and I'm trying to get this done by this coming weekend for the 25th Show. We still have to fire the engine for the first time, break it, and tune, so I can't tie up progress work on this until we have it running (which will put time frame near Thurs-Fri if we don't run into issues). I'm fairly confident I can do the surgery on the whale tail deck lid, resulting in a great look, but there's that uneasy feeling about put power tools to a already perfect deck lid. We'll see how it goes this week, may not have enough time to do deck lid before show, but could possibly run with screen over throttle bodies with no tubes to make Show, or may run into issues preventing Show attendance with the car???
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Report this Post07-16-2008 10:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Custom made filter screens completed, test fit excellent ! There's a groove channel in the molded rubber base that positions/retains filter to the bell lip edge. Reports are there is no noticeable decrease in HP on dyno running with or without these filters.









Edit to add close up of filter screen, it's double mesh contruction, but highly transparent:

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-17-2008).]

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Report this Post07-16-2008 10:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bradley JayClick Here to Email Bradley JaySend a Private Message to Bradley JayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
You wouldn't be afraid of some jerk coming along and stealing the filter screens off of your decklid?

I'm very in love with your engine set-up, old and new. Your car in general is one of my favorites, and I'm glad you're making excellent progress.
I have a few questions that don't regard the engine, but your spoiler.

What spoiler is that? Stupid question, but it looks alot better than the stock spoilers in my opinion. Where would I be able to purchase one, and was it fibreglassed on, or did it come like that on the decklid?

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by Bradley Jay (edited 07-17-2008).]

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California Kid
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Report this Post07-17-2008 08:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Thanks Bradley!

I'm not very worried about someone stealing the filters for two reasons, very few people run a Hilborn setup that they are made for (they're not the kind of people that steal), and very seldom is the parked where there isn't a crowd of people by it.

The Company I bought the whale tail from (it's a bond on) went out of business (note is was $360 plus shipping). I believe another Company is making it, listed in Fiero Vendors here on Pennocks, you could do a search on Whale Tail, or post question in "General". Here's a link that gives you some more whale tail info, and where you can get one:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/070898.html



I

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-17-2008).]

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Report this Post07-17-2008 03:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaClick Here to Email Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Your going to put holes on such a beautifull decklild??? I would cry.
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Report this Post07-17-2008 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for doublec4Click Here to Email doublec4Send a Private Message to doublec4Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:

Your going to put holes on such a beautifull decklild??? I would cry.


I would cry tears of joy. It's going to look like it means business.
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Report this Post07-17-2008 07:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:

Your going to put holes on such a beautifull decklild??? I would cry.


Hey.........I'm bitting my fingers nails about doing it, but I really want the stacks to get fresh air, and stick above flat decklid by about 3 inches. Spent the day at the shop today, I removed 4 inches from the stacks, and made a template that will be used to spot the holes in the decklid. Tomorrow morning I'll be doing some surgery, and I hope the patient comes out fine.

We did electrical checks on all systems today, only a couple minor glitches surface, and quickly corrected. Fuel system completed, pressurized, tighten a couple fittings, and good to go. Fuel pressure was down a little at 40 psi for some reason, hoping it will pick up 5 psi with engine running, otherwise may have to go with stronger pump. Just a couple more things to do, like add coolant/leak check, and we should be ready for first fire up (hopefully tomorrow).













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Report this Post07-17-2008 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Just had to include a picture of my new light weight aluminum 3,000 lb floor jack, Sportsman Guide had these on sale for $90.00, couldn't pass it up.

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-17-2008).]

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Report this Post07-17-2008 07:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bradley JayClick Here to Email Bradley JaySend a Private Message to Bradley JayEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by California Kid:
The Company I bought the whale tail from (it's a bond on) went out of business (note is was $360 plus shipping). I believe another Company is making it, listed in Fiero Vendors here on Pennocks, you could do a search on Whale Tail, or post question in "General". Here's a link that gives you some more whale tail info, and where you can get one:

//www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/070898.html

Crud, I wish I would've followed that link before I posted the question in General. I feel a bit slow now!

Thanks again, Cali!

[This message has been edited by Bradley Jay (edited 07-17-2008).]

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Report this Post07-18-2008 06:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Difference between 12 in. Corvette Rotors and stock diameter 88 GT Rotors:



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ChopTop
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Report this Post07-18-2008 09:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ChopTopClick Here to Email ChopTopSend a Private Message to ChopTopEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Very nice, only thing I'd notice is they look like there going poking out of the decklid to the right of center of the decklid. Anyway to lean the stacks so they exit in the center line area of the decklid? I'm more a designer, which means I choose form first, function second. Where as engineers think function first, form second.
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California Kid
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Report this Post07-18-2008 09:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Initially I thought a slight angle/bend in the tubes might be do-able, but as you'll see from photo's it would take too severe of an angle to have tubes exit centered on the deck lid.

The cut holes are actually centered pretty darn good on the tubes, but camera does funny things not being stereo vision. The deck lid closing angle was found to be too severe, requiring a huge opening to clear tubes with or without the air filters on. So, for the mean time we came up with a solution of using spring loaded tube lock screws, so tubes fit real snug into the throttle bodies. Tubes have to be removed for opening/closing of deck lid, if I get tired of this I'll find another solution (couple in mind). These are just the quick rough cuts to check the look, finishing requires a few more touches.









[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-18-2008).]

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California Kid
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Report this Post07-18-2008 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
We didn't get it fired up today, shop lost the hydraulic clutch slave rod, made a new one after guessing some dimensions, and pedal is rock hard, so back to the drawing board. Anyone knowing dimensions of the rod, please pm me.

Put the new steering wheel in and the coolant temp warning light (red cap), this one comes on at 210 F as an early warning. The gauge in the cluster is blocked by the steering wheel for my seating position, and wheel angle.



New Seats finally arrived today, but no harnesses yet. Seats are going to be a little bit of a tight fit, but they are pretty close to stock seat dimensions except for height (they are taller, but should be no problem)

[This message has been edited by California Kid (edited 07-18-2008).]

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darkhorizon
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Report this Post07-19-2008 11:12 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
As much as I pop my hood, I know having to take those filters off each time would get old quick.

Looks dang cool though!
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Formula88
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Report this Post07-19-2008 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love it!!

If you're going to have to take the tubes off to open the deck lid, go ahead and put the taller tubes back on.
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California Kid
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Report this Post07-19-2008 03:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for California KidSend a Private Message to California KidEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That thought crossed my mind !
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Alex4mula
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Report this Post07-19-2008 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Alex4mulaClick Here to Email Alex4mulaSend a Private Message to Alex4mulaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
It came out much better than I thought. Too bad they are not centered.
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