Well if they are the same in stock form then lets move onto why I chose the 3800. I mean the swaps cost the same, both are pretty cheap and easy to do. So that leaves you with one more factors, one that is put the topping on having a nice swap and that is apperance. So here are pictures of my 3800 SC install(nice and clean but still needs alot of work) and a 4.9 swap that I found on a webpage(no offence to whoevers swap this is). I know there are a few clean 4.9 swaps out there but they are nothing compared to a clean 3800 swap. Even my swap can be cleaned up but that comes with time and of course money.

My 3800SC

Someones 4.9

Now, which one would be more appealing to the spectators eye if you are at a Car Show. I mean if you get the same performance out of both motors and they cost the same to swap, them which would you chose.

And I own page four of this Thead, which has gone on longer than I expected but its all good information being passed around.

[This message has been edited by MstangsBware (edited 07-06-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: How much do you guys with the 3800 II S/C engine get city/highway mpg(please note if you had mods or not) Same for the 4.9 guys?? Thanks and go back to your reguarly scheduled debate

Yes good information.......now could someone answer what I said above lol. Im wanting to know which engine swap is more economic, aka better mpg(has to be auto, probably the auto tranny with X swap). Thx

4T60EHD with stock final drive. 3.06 I believe?

So basically after following another vs thread, it comes down to if you go 4.9 you have to spend the rest of you PFF life getting disrespected, going to shows and cruising with a V8 that gets better fuel milage than the stock 2.8 for less money than rebuilding the 2.8. OR You go 3800 you can close your mind to all other engine because you know you have the best engine gm ever offered you.

You gotta love opinions I think a 3800 swap is easier to do, and I have done both, also you don't have to put up with all the bs that us 4.9 guys get.

Lets play nice, any 1/4 mile racer knows that with enough time and money any engine would do.

as for fuel economy between the two. they are both better than the 2.8, its going to depend on gearing and driving style.

Pete

I'd like to see a timeslip of 13.99 or faster from a stock 4.9L in a fiero. Its been done with the sc3800.

IMO, the sc3800 is far superior aesthetically. Even a sc3800 without cleaning up the fuel rails looks better than a clean 4.9 with the exception of the Allante intake. Even then, a clean sc3800 looks better than a clean Allante swap.

the 4.9 was produced from 91-95. sc3800 series 2 from 96-???. I dont know they switched to series 3. But its still in production AFAIK.

You have no chance of getting an engine that is less than 10 years old with the 4.9. With the sc3800, you have no chance of getting one thats older than 10 years. Just thought I'd point out the obvious for those who are lacking in the observation dept.

engine cost is a wash. I've seen both go for as little as $200-$300. I haven't seen a 4.9 with less than 20k miles. EVER. Well, at least since I was aware of the swap. The SC3800 is new enough that you can still find lower milage units.

With that said, I'd still do a 4.9 swap. Just not in my car. I actually have a customer of mine that I plan on talking to about swapping something into her 85 coupe, or I'll find her another fiero to perform a swap. Of course, I'd rather do a sc3800 for her.

That looks better than a 3800 if you ask me.

Ive seen some sweet looking 4.9 swaps. PBJs 4.9 swap was VERY CLEAN.

Im sorry 4.9 guys. You really cant compete with this!!!

The 260 HP out of the box is kinda hard to compete with as well.

But, whatever floats your boat.

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: I'm wanting to know which engine swap is more economic

In my 88 Coupe, with the 2.5L duke/TH-125, I never got better than 26 Miles to the US Gallon. In my 4.9L with 4T60e in mostly highway driving I get.... 26 miles to the US Gallon. So I have roughly twice the horsepower for same fuel economy.

Pete, though I get disrespected on the forum, I spend the most of my time explaining to the general public that it's a Cadillac V8 but not a Northstar

And yes a 3800 is generally speaking easier to be made pretty, but I think my 4.9 looks WAY better than the 2.5 it replaced.

This thread is getting stuck on STUPID for the simple reason we are looking at which is prettier which has nothing to do with looks but best suited for the car.Not because the 4.9 is an older engine 91-95 so is the N* 96 and up those are old too,the design of the 4.9 was meant to haul around a big car with a lot of people in comfort there fore the massive torque low down it was not designed to be a race engine, now taken out and put in a smaller lighter car it has got to be better than a 2.8 or a 2.5 the initial power plant so with this swap you will smile after the swap....now on the other hand a 3800sc was designed for more performance in mind so naturally it has an advantage with newer technology, but if the 4.9 is torn down and redesigned to your personal choice the results will be out of this world and like any speed project then it is not economical any more like it was intended to be .
The average 4.9 owner is very happy with their car than it was but a few like myself are not about stock and cry for more power and take it a step further to will spend the $$$ for improvement than change to another engine.The 305 and 350 those are old motors also and still runs good right from the junkyard but the level of performance depends on the available $$ and how happy the owners are so the saga continues.

3800sc.................. Top dog
N* ....................... Exotic
3.4 TDC .................Hi revving Exotic
4.9.........................Garbage

one way to end this controversey if like all the other shows around the country we find a central location with a race track and have a weekend of drags for Fieros no matter what your engine configuration is and we can see who is the top dog to quell all doubts about time slips .........I will be there

------------------
"King of the Hill" Twin Turbo V8 GT,
250hp Direct Injected Nitrous Oxide System
5.1 litre "PoD"Caddy Powered Widebody Exotic Super Car .(WIP)
"Juice and Boost"

"I like it when you call me Big Poppa"

Always Sunny Florida.

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 07-06-2005).]

quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: That looks better than a 3800 if you ask me.

This engine compartment has always been my favorite 4.9.

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[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 07-06-2005).]

Fieromaster that 4.9 compartment looks very cluttered too, but I like the intake. And getting better gas mileage than the 2.8 isn't really something that someone can be all that proud about, my LS1 (not in the Fiero... ) gets better gas mileage than the 2.8, and it has like 3x the hp and torque.

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: This thread is getting stuck on STUPID for the simple reason we are looking at which is prettier

MTA- I disagree a little bit. Looks are important, and it's true that the 4.9 is not an easy engine to be made pretty. Most engines nowadays are not that interesting to look at and they hide the mess the've made under a big cover. In most shows you are judged on the appearance of the engine compartment so looks count.

I hate dragging an SBC into the discussion but this is an example of an engine that looks GOOD.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: MTA- I disagree a little bit. Looks are important, and it's true that the 4.9 is not an easy engine to be made pretty. Most engines nowadays are not that interesting to look at and they hide the mess the've made under a big cover. In most shows you are judged on the appearance of the engine compartment so looks count. I hate dragging an SBC into the discussion but this is an example of an engine that looks GOOD.

I stand corrected ....that is f.....g impressive but the 3800sc looks nicer and more hi-tech ha ha ha ha I wonder how much ? about $10,000 gotta start saving .

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 07-06-2005).]

A crate LT5 for $10,000 I think would be a bargain. I have no idea of the cost but I would love to see one of these in a Fiero.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: 1) MOST fieros weigh a couple hundred pounds less than the test weights i used. I was being conservative 2) tranmission choice as well as differential choice make a wide array of performance numbers, ( plus some people flat out lie . The transmission choice i used was much more of an economy gearing. 3) a 1/4 mile is still a relatively short distance. Torque wins short races, and these engines are virtually identical when it comes to peak Torque. the 4.9L's off-idle Torque is somewhat larger than a 3800sc s2, enough to make a difference and help even out there 1/4 mile performance. 4) a 4.9L isn't bad choice at all. I'm not sure where you live, but 4.9L engeins are almost a diem a dozen at junkyards now. Everytime i go to the junkyard, theres a new early nineties caddy that just pulled in with a 4.9L in it. they are QUITE common.

they are common near you because you live in florida - land of the old retiries - its like the elephant graveyard down there.
I live in Maryland near dc and baltimore and you can find 10 times as many low milage 3800sc's as high milage 4.9's

quote Originally posted by jscott1:

WOW--I have to agree with JScott on this one, that would look nice under the decklid of a Fiero. But I cant even imagine the amount of cheese it would take to make it happen.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: bottom line is, the 4.9L, with a rockcrawl or fastchip, is comparable to the stock 3800sc s2, and its only a $150 upgrade. its a poor man's hot rodd in a fiero. give it a rest people.. nobody is arguing the greater potential of the 3800sc engines.. they just cost a heck of a lot more, and they dont sound as manly. for day to day driving, teh fun factor is greater.

you are entitled to that opinion - but mods asside - stock for stock - real life timeslip postings as proof - the 4.9 is only barely better than the NA 3800 (which can also get rocker arms and porting and nitrous and probably still stay with the 4.9) but the 3800sc is a better swap - might cost some people more money - might cost some people less

Edited as not to direct this at Kohburn. Sorry I just kind blew up.

Around here We find beat up 3800 SC motors. However we can find babied 4.9's. 3800's are not common motors and when you do find them they are usually in poor shape.

Don't give me the crap about the 3800 having the same torque as the 4.9 as that is false. It may have the same peak, but off the line power goes to the 4.9. It was designed and built for low rpm grunt. The 3800 was designed for a higher rpm power band.

In the end it is just personal opinion on who and what they want.

Not all of you 3800 people are kicking up a fuss. But it just seems to PISS YOU OFF that a few people prefer a 4.9 over a 3800. Why does it get your dander up that some people prefer the 4.9 over the 3800. It does not piss me off that you like your 3800 over my 4.9. What makes me mad is you saying that the 4.9 is crap compared to the 3800SC.

Can't you just give it a rest. Some people prefer the 4.9 over the 3800SC and drop the attitude.

I have been on this forum for a long time. I honestly think this is the first time I have really been upset in a thread. Everyone can have there opinion, but the way some of you are trashing other people's hard work is really un-called for.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 07-06-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: the design of the 4.9 was meant to haul around a big car with a lot of people in comfort there fore the massive torque low down it was not designed to be a race engine,

Exactly.. There was a good article in a mustang mag, talking about "Low end torque doesn't mean a damn thing if it runs out of breath soon".. I mean why doesn't anyone put a huge diesel in their sports car? Tons of torque down low.. It would launch that puppy..

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Edited as not to direct this at Kohburn. Sorry I just kind blew up. Around here We find beat up 3800 SC motors. However we can find babied 4.9's. 3800's are not common motors and when you do find them they are usually in poor shape. Don't give me the crap about the 3800 having the same torque as the 4.9 as that is false. It may have the same peak, but off the line power goes to the 4.9. It was designed and built for low rpm grunt. The 3800 was designed for a higher rpm power band. In the end it is just personal opinion on who and what they want. Not all of you 3800 people are kicking up a fuss. But it just seems to PISS YOU OFF that a few people prefer a 4.9 over a 3800. Why does it get your dander up that some people prefer the 4.9 over the 3800. It does not piss me off that you like your 3800 over my 4.9. What makes me mad is you saying that the 4.9 is crap compared to the 3800SC. Can't you just give it a rest. Some people prefer the 4.9 over the 3800SC and drop the attitude. I have been on this forum for a long time. I honestly think this is the first time I have really been upset in a thread. Everyone can have there opinion, but the way some of you are trashing other people's hard work is really un-called for.

No, the problem is the question was, "which is the better swap?". We stated our case, then the 4.9 guys start spreading BS about the SC3800 and their own 4.9's(inflated 1/4 mile times). I have no problems with the 4.9, except when their owners make it out to be the best swap in the world, and state stock for stock, it will beat a SC3800. Now, I think all the SC3800 owners have been fairly civilized. So,e of the 4.9 owners got alittle overheated though.
And to really get the pot stirring, the N* and LS1-LS6 swaps are better then both, just pricier right now.

quote Originally posted by SOULCRUSHER: And to really get the pot stirring, the N* and LS1-LS6 swaps are better then both, just pricier right now.

Don't forget that beautiful LT-5 up there and I know Archie's got one sitting in a crate somewhere...

LT-5 is a beautiful engine but physically big and heavy. Probibly not very well suited for a fiero. A N* being all aluminum should keep weight gain to a minimum and still have the DOHC V-8 exotic feel to it.

quote Originally posted by Tinton: Fieromaster that 4.9 compartment looks very cluttered too, but I like the intake. And getting better gas mileage than the 2.8 isn't really something that someone can be all that proud about, my LS1 (not in the Fiero... ) gets better gas mileage than the 2.8, and it has like 3x the hp and torque.

I guess I just like a more full engine compartment, no matter what engine it is. I dont like engines that have hoses and wires routed everywhere tho. It's got to be clean and organised. I agree with you on the gas mileage thing. I did not do an engine swap for better gas mileage. I did it to make my car faster. I dont care who you are, thats the main reason for doing an engine swap is to make the car faster.

quote Originally posted by SOULCRUSHER: 4T60EHD with stock final drive. 3.06 I believe?

they come with a variety of final drives, ranging from 2.73:1 all the way up to 3.73:1 , all depends on what youve got..

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: i dont think ONE, not even ONE 4.9L person said that there 4.9L will beat a 3800sc in the quartermile, unless it was modded.. ive looked over the entire forum, not one person said that... in the 1/8th mile, yes, they did claim it would win, and more than likely, they are right most of the time..

Never said they did. I said their 1/4 mile times were inflated. And on that note, I still don't see a 4.9 beating a SC3800 1/8th mile either. Stock mine ran the 1/8th in the 8.3-8.7 range at 80-83mph.

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: BTW - - there is nothing I have said above that could not be proven at Ed's swap meet next year. In front of God and everybody! ACCELERATION - There is an 1/8th mile strip just a few miles away that could be rented for the night (again). I will concede the 1/4 mile!! HANDLING - There are fishscales that can weigh engines as they hang from the hoist. I personally have a set, left over from my A&P days (rigigng flight controls). And a local autocross can be arranged (again). APPEARANCE - An impromptu "show" for those in attendance to vote on the best looking engine compartment. MILEAGE - A long distance caravan to check mileage could take place over the course of the weekend. COST - Hell, we could even set up a start-to-finish swap to let people see just how inexpensive and easy both swaps can be - - with the cars being raffled (proceeds to charity) at the meet!! How about it?? G

I wrote this several days ago, it is a REAL challenge - - an opportunity to prove all the verbage that has been written on the previous 4 pages.

A challenge with no takers.

Why is it so easy to type all the macho BS in the world - - but when it comes right down to drags like Milan, Wheatstock, and even Ed's there are hardly enough entrants to pay the bills???

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 07-07-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: Why is it so easy to type all the macho BS in the world - - but when it comes right down to drags like Milan, Wheatstock, and even Ed's there are hardly enough entrants to pay the bills??? G

There are several people on here that know of 2 Caddy swaps that were called out.

Neither one showed up.

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: I wrote this several days ago, it is a REAL challenge - - an opportunity to prove all the verbage that has been written on the previous 4 pages. A challenge with no takers. Why is it so easy to type all the macho BS in the world - - but when it comes right down to drags like Milan, Wheatstock, and even Ed's there are hardly enough entrants to pay the bills??? G

Maybe because most of the members on the Forum aren't retired and have jobs they must keep. You are talking to a crowd in which probally 98% of them still have everyday jobs to make a living. Did those thoughts ever cross you mind, I guess not. Not to mention this Forum is like any other Forum, there are differant opinion and everyone likes to voice them, thats what makes this Forum so great. What fun would it be to have a Forum where everyone agreed and all had cars that looked and performed the same.

Because you are talking about packing up, taking days off work, and traveling hundreds of miles to do something I can do 30 minutes away on a Friday nite for 15 bucks. I race mine regularly, so does LilDevil. We don't need to show up to prove to you or anyone else what our cars run. We have posted video and slips. What more do you need?

quote Originally posted by SOULCRUSHER: Because you are talking about packing up, taking days off work, and traveling hundreds of miles to do something I can do 30 minutes away on a Friday nite for 15 bucks. I race mine regularly, so does LilDevil. We don't need to show up to prove to you or anyone else what our cars run. We have posted video and slips. What more do you need?

and the only 4.9 i've seen a vid of was a turbo 4.9

quote Originally posted by SOULCRUSHER: Because you are talking about packing up, taking days off work, and traveling hundreds of miles to do something I can do 30 minutes away on a Friday nite for 15 bucks. I race mine regularly, so does LilDevil. We don't need to show up to prove to you or anyone else what our cars run. We have posted video and slips. What more do you need?

As accomplished and experienced drag racers, you should know the answer. The same car/driver will get completely different results in Boston in September as they will in Denver in May, or Tucson in August, or Miami in June. Actually, you can get vastly different times on the same track between noon and 10:00PM on the same day!! Am I right??

For example, my Cadero (built for handling, not drag racing) has posted times from 13.7 to 15.4 - - - different places, temps, altitudes, humidity, and track surfaces (the two times I quoted were in Tulsa on a cool evening, and in Denver - Bandimere Int'l - on a hot sunny day). Another example, in the "bad air" at Wheatstock, FieroX was appreciably slower than his best posted times in Wichita, just 130 miles to the SW (still pretty impressive, however). And I have a video of THAT to prove it!!

So post all the videos and slips that you will, it really proves little. Only heads-up competition can determine the "King-of-the-Hill". Otherwise, there are too many variables - variables that can cause a one second or more difference.

Or to put it another way, a 12 second car in your neck of the woods may be a 13 second or even a 14 second car in mine - - - -

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: As accomplished and experienced drag racers, you should know the answer.G

It's true. That's one reason there are no world records for the Marathon. Too many variables. But tell me which tracks produce the 12 second timeslips, that's where I want to race.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: But tell me which tracks produce the 12 second timeslips, that's where I want to race.

Just ask and I will mail you down a couple. It easy to get time slips.

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: Yes good information.......now could someone answer what I said above lol. Im wanting to know which engine swap is more economic, aka better mpg(has to be auto, probably the auto tranny with X swap). Thx

To answer your question you can expect to get around 30mpg on the hwy with a 3800SC depending on what trans is used and what the overall gearing is.

quote Originally posted by PBJ: So basically after following another vs thread, it comes down to if you go 4.9 you have to spend the rest of you PFF life getting disrespected, going to shows and cruising with a V8 that gets better fuel milage than the stock 2.8 for less money than rebuilding the 2.8. OR You go 3800 you can close your mind to all other engine because you know you have the best engine gm ever offered you. You gotta love opinions I think a 3800 swap is easier to do, and I have done both, also you don't have to put up with all the bs that us 4.9 guys get.

Now I think this is somewhat of an unfair statement. Both sides have their harshest critics and biggest loudmouths but please don't groop me, and others like me who have 3800's into a crowd of close-minded people. I have personally done LT1, 3.4 DOHC, 3800SC and 3800Turbo swaps into Fieros, as well as done many 3800 and V8 TPI/LT1 swaps into non-Fiero vehicles so I don't see how you could say people like me have a closed mind. If you say that 4.9 owners get disrespect on here then I would have to say that 3800SC owners get the same, if not worse as well. Furthermore I can't help the fact that the 3800 made the top-10 world's best engines list and the 4.9 didn't. I don't even care about that. What I do care about is some of the misinformation that is getting spread on here about how easy it is to get aftermarket hop-up parts for the 4.9. A few people on this thread in particular have gone out of their way to say how easy it is to get these parts for the 4.9. They may think its easy, but in comparison it is no-where as easy as it is to find those parts for the 3800SC (Series 2). That's not an opinion, thats FACT.

Again, I have to restate my opinion that someone who is trying to make a choice between a 3800SC or a 4.9 should base their choice on PERSONAL PREFERENCE. I personally don't have a problem with either engine and in fact if you want an LT1, LS1, Northstar, or Ecotec then I say go ahead and choose one of those if that is what you want. What I will say is the 1/4 mile list here on PFF as well as other places on the internet are NOT reflecting the run-of-the-mill 4.9 1/4 mile claims that some people in this thread would have you believe they are capable of. There are far more sub 13 and sub 12 sec 1/4 3800s than 4.9's. Again, these are the facts. For those people who disagree with me on these facts then I invite them to prove me wrong. Personally, I would like to see many 4.9's that can run consistantly with the 3800SC's and do it reliably.

Us 3800V6 guys have always had to fight an uphill battle against the naysayers ever since the Buick Turbo 3.8's came out in force during the 80's; just because you have a 4.9 V8 doesn't mean you get a free pass to escape from the critics. Thats life. Deal with it.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-07-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: As accomplished and experienced drag racers, you should know the answer. The same car/driver will get completely different results in Boston in September as they will in Denver in May, or Tucson in August, or Miami in June. Actually, you can get vastly different times on the same track between noon and 10:00PM on the same day!! Am I right?? For example, my Cadero (built for handling, not drag racing) has posted times from 13.7 to 15.4 - - - different places, temps, altitudes, humidity, and track surfaces (the two times I quoted were in Tulsa on a cool evening, and in Denver - Bandimere Int'l - on a hot sunny day). Another example, in the "bad air" at Wheatstock, FieroX was appreciably slower than his best posted times in Wichita, just 130 miles to the SW (still pretty impressive, however). And I have a video of THAT to prove it!! So post all the videos and slips that you will, it really proves little. Only heads-up competition can determine the "King-of-the-Hill". Otherwise, there are too many variables - variables that can cause a one second or more difference. Or to put it another way, a 12 second car in your neck of the woods may be a 13 second or even a 14 second car in mine - - - - G

Are you friggin insane? Of course different conditions will affect your times, but you still get a ballpark figure. If you race at a high altitude, you can use a formula to find out what your car woulda run at sea level. All the magazines use it. So if you are racing at a high altitude, figure out the correction formula, I do not know it, and don't need it. My track is at sea level. OH, and most of my times are in the sticky humid weather that is common in the mid Atlantic states. And humidity kills performance, especially a SC3800. So imagine if we were in the midwest.
But anyway, why don't you make a trip up here to Maryland. We can match race. There you've been challenged.