quote Originally posted by Kohburn: and that depends on the area - around here its easier to find a northstar than a 4.9 and you can pick up a 3800sc thats only a couple years old cheaper than a 4.9 thats aged and high milage

Kohburn - can you help me get one of those "easy to find" 3800SC's? I am ready to install! I'll help to build you a garage and then help empty the fridge in it, too!

[This message has been edited by Saxman (edited 06-30-2005).]

"WOW" factor? Drive you Fiero EVERYDAY to work and grocery shopping...drive it the track...RIP low 12 1/4 mile times...drive it home and still get 30 mpg! WOW! And why does everyone talk about the 4.9's being TORQUE monsters. The 3800SC has more! And the blower sound is jus as impressive as the V8 rumble cause when people hear it at the track they are like "WHAT the F**K is that!"

Go 3800SC...you will not be disappointed and you won't be second guessing yourself after you do it.

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http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/445986
1985 Fiero w/ 1998 Supercharged 3.8 V-6
Best ET: 2.75 pulley 12.20@ 114.90 mph


"NO Juice....Just BOOST!"

Im sure some videos would help persuade him.....eh?

Im going to be honest. I would go with the 3800SC , Im not dissing the 4.9 ( I own one) But to be honest it takes work and alot of fabrication to do a 4.9 swap If it wasn't because of the weight of a 3800sc One would be in my car today.

The 3800 sc engine has always been my favorite swap, Along with the NStar. Question to all the 3800sc guys. What is the weakest part of a 3800sc ? And can you buy aftermarket alluminum heads ?

If for some reason you pick a 4.9. Take your time and don't rush and the same can be said about a 3800sc engine swap.
Now if you were deciding to either go with a 3.4 pushrod engine or a DOHC engine, I would honestly tell you to do the 4.9. (no flames intended to the 3.4 crowd)

So to answer your question.

If your good at fabrication and like good gas mileage and daily driver then do a 4.9, The 4.9 will be a cheaper swap if you know how to weld and fabricate parts.
If your no good at fabrication then I reccomend you do a 3800sc The 3800sc can get good gas mileage as well, Alot of our vendors sell conversion parts for this engine. Hence why there are alot of nice looking 3800sc engine compartments.

I personally love the stick shift 3800sc conversions

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[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 07-01-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Saxman: Kohburn - can you help me get one of those "easy to find" 3800SC's? I am ready to install! I'll help to build you a garage and then help empty the fridge in it, too!

yeah man there are a few in md with 2,000-40,000 miles for 1000$ probably get one cheaper out of PA

I don't mean to get off subject but what is the weight difference between the sc3800 and the TPI 350? If there isn't that much i don't see why he shouldn't consider this aswell. Im sure they can't be that expensive, 350's are a dime a dozen around here. Although i could be wrong

quote Originally posted by 865spd: I don't mean to get off subject but what is the weight difference between the sc3800 and the TPI 350? If there isn't that much i don't see why he shouldn't consider this aswell. Im sure they can't be that expensive, 350's are a dime a dozen around here. Although i could be wrong

the cost of the v8 swap is in the adaptor and flywheel and various other things required - not so much the engine itself

First off I am not advocating one engine over another, far be it from me to tell someone I don't know which engine to choose. As I read all these swap threads one of the main arguments for the 3800 swap over anything else is the availability of aftermarket parts. Just a question for all who swapped in a stock 3800. How many of you have upped your hp using aftermarket parts? Aside from the smaller pulley. Are you happy with the performance of your stock 3800? As for the 4.9 owners are you happy with your performance? Would you buy new heads for 1000 bucks, if it would give a 50 HP increase ? Would you like to see billet rods and solid lift cams? Sure some people are always looking for more HP. When deciding what engine to use be realistic in what your performance goals are. Just some observations.

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Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: the cost of the v8 swap is in the adaptor and flywheel and various other things required - not so much the engine itself

Exactly why the Cadillac series of V8s have gotten popular, no adapter plate required. The 3800 doesn't require an adapter plate either so the ease of installing either one should be about the same. If money were no object I think the SBC would be my first choice though.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Exactly why the Cadillac series of V8s have gotten popular, no adapter plate required. If money were no object I think the SBC would be my first choice though.

I think a N* makes more sense than a sbc. Bolts up to the trani, 300hp stock and light weight. Lots of aftermarket as well since chrfab started making cams, springs, pistons, rods etc. Its more transmission friendly as well, less torque but has a broad powerband. If you like em low tec and raw, then SBC is definitly the way to go.

quote Originally posted by lildevil: "WOW" factor? Drive you Fiero EVERYDAY to work and grocery shopping...drive it the track...RIP low 12 1/4 mile times...drive it home and still get 30 mpg! WOW! And why does everyone talk about the 4.9's being TORQUE monsters. The 3800SC has more! And the blower sound is jus as impressive as the V8 rumble cause when people hear it at the track they are like "WHAT the F**K is that!" Go 3800SC...you will not be disappointed and you won't be second guessing yourself after you do it.

(Modified quote) "WOW" factor? Drive your Fiero EVERYDAY to work and grocery shopping...take it autocrossing...RIP mid 13 1/4 mile times...and still get 30+ mpg! WOW! And why does everyone talk about the 3800SC's being so powerful?. The 4.9 has more useable torque - from off-idle (instead of waiting halfway through the powerband)! The V8 rumble is more impressive and recognizeable - when people hear the 3800SC at the track they are like "WHAT the F**K is that - - a vacuum leak??

Go 4.9...you will not be disappointed and you won't be second guessing yourself after you do it.
(end modified quote)

Not much has been said about how the car handles after each conversion. Even though the 3800 goes well in a straight line, how many of us only go straight? The 3800 needs work on the suspension just to get the anchor in the back to drive around corners as well as the car did in stock form.

OTOH, the 4.9 is so close to the original engine's weight that it instantly handles as well as stock - - you can go around corners fast, too!! Speaking of fast, the 3800 powered Fieros may go faster in the quarter, but the 4.9 will take them in the 1/8th and light-to-light. They also will give better mileage, and sound more like a car than a vacuum cleaner.

Plus, you can supercharge a 4.9, but you can't add 2 cylinders to a 3800!!

I have a friend that has 2 Fieros. He has a 3800SC in an 87GT, and a 4.9 in an 86SE. He drives the 4.9 as his daily driver, while he has his wife drive the 3800. Why? Because he thinks the V8 sounds more masculine , and the 3.8 sounds more like his whiney wife

Now, all that being said, I have admiration for people that take the time to do either conversion. The end result of either conversion is:
(1) Owner/Builder pride
(2) Increased performance (both are rice-burners)
(3) Longevity - both engines are sturdy and will give years of service (with proper maint)
(4) Increased fuel mileage over the stock engine
(5) The right to add your .02 in these types of discussions

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: (Modified quote) "WOW" factor? Drive your Fiero EVERYDAY to work and grocery shopping...take it autocrossing...RIP mid 13 1/4 mile times...and still get 30+ mpg! WOW! And why does everyone talk about the 3800SC's being so powerful?. The 4.9 has more useable torque - from off-idle (instead of waiting halfway through the powerband)! The V8 rumble is more impressive and recognizeable - when people hear the 3800SC at the track they are like "WHAT the F**K is that - - a vacuum leak?? Go 4.9...you will not be disappointed and you won't be second guessing yourself after you do it. (end modified quote) Not much has been said about how the car handles after each conversion. Even though the 3800 goes well in a straight line, how many of us only go straight? The 3800 needs work on the suspension just to get the anchor in the back to drive around corners as well as the car did in stock form. OTOH, the 4.9 is so close to the original engine's weight that it instantly handles as well as stock - - you can go around corners fast, too!! Speaking of fast, the 3800 powered Fieros may go faster in the quarter, but the 4.9 will take them in the 1/8th and light-to-light. They also will give better mileage, and sound more like a car than a vacuum cleaner. Plus, you can supercharge a 4.9, but you can't add 2 cylinders to a 3800!! I have a friend that has 2 Fieros. He has a 3800SC in an 87GT, and a 4.9 in an 86SE. He drives the 4.9 as his daily driver, while he has his wife drive the 3800. Why? Because he thinks the V8 sounds more masculine , and the 3.8 sounds more like his whiney wife Now, all that being said, I have admiration for people that take the time to do either conversion. The end result of either conversion is: (1) Owner/Builder pride (2) Increased performance (both are rice-burners) (3) Longevity - both engines are sturdy and will give years of service (with proper maint) (4) Increased fuel mileage over the stock engine (5) The right to add your .02 in these types of discussions G

Cadero better get your fire extinguisher

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"King of the Hill" Twin Turbo V8 GT,
250hp Direct Injected Nitrous Oxide System
5.1 litre "PoD"Caddy Powered Widebody Exotic Super Car .(WIP)

"I like it when you call me Big Poppa"

Always Sunny Florida.

How does a 4.9 have more "usable torque"? How does a 3800 sc torque come in "halfway"through the power band? The 3800 makes more torque then you'll ever need ( or the Fiero can handle)without spinning the tires on a hard launch. Put a simple 100 pully on the blower and you'll smoke the tires with ease. And there is NO way a 4.9 beats a 3800 to the 1/8 mile. Jus face it...the 3800sc is a better all around motor then the 4.9.

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http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/445986
1985 Fiero w/ 1998 Supercharged 3.8 V-6
Best ET: 2.75 pulley 12.20@ 114.90 mph


"NO Juice....Just BOOST!"

don't see why the suspension needs tweaking, yeah its like what 75 lbs more then the 4.9. You honestly can't feel a weight difference, my friend and I couldn't anyways. Before I had lowering springs put on and tires it cornered exactly the same? yeah I know a lot will so no way, but it's been proven over and over on the board that the extra weight from motor swaps isn't an issue.

not sure how people would associate an SC for a vac leak, most people around here think I'm turbo'ed believe it not, but performance around here are 350 s10/blazers that run 14's so that shows intelligance there.

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3800 SC/IC Fiero fixed and weeeeeen'in again!

Well maybe the 3800 SC I took a spin in was a bad example, but I have been in a 3800 SC and did not like it. I love my V8 and I love the feeling of raw power you get out of it.

The only thing the 4.9 needs is a better cam to pick up the pace. It is a Caddy Motor after all. It just needs a bit of a wake up call.

There is no replacement for displacement. (or we would all have 1 liter 3 cyl Geo motors with 20 lbs of boost)

When Lamborghini, Ferrari, Viper, Corvette, all decide to park there V12's V10's and V8's in favour of Turbo or Supercharged 4 poppers and 6 poppers I might make the move to a smaller engine.

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Well maybe the 3800 SC I took a spin in was a bad example, but I have been in a 3800 SC and did not like it. I love my V8 and I love the feeling of raw power you get out of it. The only thing the 4.9 needs is a better cam to pick up the pace. It is a Caddy Motor after all. It just needs a bit of a wake up call. There is no replacement for displacement. (or we would all have 1 liter 3 cyl Geo motors with 20 lbs of boost) When Lamborghini, Ferrari, Viper, Corvette, all decide to park there V12's V10's and V8's in favour of Turbo or Supercharged 4 poppers and 6 poppers I might make the move to a smaller engine.

Ferrari's ARE small engines, displacement wise.. You can't compare a Lamborghini, Viper, or Corvette motor to an old Cadillac 4.9?!

I think it comes down to, and this is proven time and time again, if you want to run 14-15 second quarter miles, get a 4.9.. If you want a 12-13 second quarter mile, get a 3.8.. As for the 'wow', I think it's all in their heads (Dude, theres an extra 2 cylinders in taht car!!!)

Every one of you guys needs to get a life. Holy crap. I dont understand why you feel the need to put down the other guys swap. What does that do for you?

As for which is better. Go to a car show. Get someone to give you a ride in each one to see what you like better and do that swap. Everyone does their swap for their own reasons and everyone has the same ammount of pride in their cars. To put that down is just stupid. If you dont like someones swap thats fine, just keep your f***ing mouth shut. Keep in mind you are arguing about a car thats 20 years old that the rest of the public doesnt like anyway.

quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: Every one of you guys needs to get a life. Holy crap. I dont understand why you feel the need to put down the other guys swap. What does that do for you? As for which is better. Go to a car show. Get someone to give you a ride in each one to see what you like better and do that swap. Everyone does their swap for their own reasons and everyone has the same ammount of pride in their cars. To put that down is just stupid. If you dont like someones swap thats fine, just keep your f***ing mouth shut. Keep in mind you are arguing about a car thats 20 years old that the rest of the public doesnt like anyway.

Well said ,most who are saying this are just jumping on the band wagon of 4.9 nay sayers I adore my 4.9/5.1

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"King of the Hill" Twin Turbo V8 GT,
250hp Direct Injected Nitrous Oxide System
5.1 litre "PoD"Caddy Powered Widebody Exotic Super Car .(WIP)
"Juice and Boost"

"I like it when you call me Big Poppa"

Always Sunny Florida.

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Well said ,most who are saying this are just jumping on the band wagon of 4.9 nay sayers I adore my 4.9/5.1

It goes the other way too.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: Ferrari's ARE small engines, displacement wise.. You can't compare a Lamborghini, Viper, or Corvette motor to an old Cadillac 4.9?! I think it comes down to, and this is proven time and time again, if you want to run 14-15 second quarter miles, get a 4.9.. If you want a 12-13 second quarter mile, get a 3.8.. As for the 'wow', I think it's all in their heads (Dude, theres an extra 2 cylinders in taht car!!!)

Dude you are a moron, if you think a 4.9 is a 15 second car.

My 2.8 clocked off better than that. Hell I pulled off a 14.6 in my 2.8 and I know that this 4.9 is much faster than that.

Like I said earlier, the 4.9 is better compared with a NA 3800 because they make the same hp, although the 3800 has a broader powerband. You can not compare a stock 3800sc and a 4.9 acceleration wise. The 4.9 will loose every time. Mid 14s with a 4.9 or mid 13s with a 3800sc. Pretty big difference there.

To a person who auto X's all the time I'm sure weight is more of an issue than a daily driver. Really, who goes around corners as hard as they can all the time? 75lbs isn't much, and relocating the battery to the front offsets that a bit anyways.

There is a replacement for displacement and it is called a supercharger, turbocharger or nitrous. A 3.0L straight 6 supra is capable of making 1000hp on a stock long block. 3L!!!!

Not sure how much my N* weighs, but when I get it running I hardly think I will notice any handling differences. I'll be having more fun putting 300hp to the road, which is good for around a mid to high 12 bone stock. I didn't feel any difference with my 3.4dohc, and its supposidly a heavy motor.

[This message has been edited by crzyone (edited 07-03-2005).]

valid points with auto cross, different strokes for different folks. That's why there's different options

no need for a pee pee contest, we all drive the same cars

Omg now the 4.9 is a 15second motor ? Soon the bs will continue to grow and soon the 4.9 will be a 16 sec engine, More bs will fly and before you know it the 4.9 will have the same track times as a duke.

The only 4.9s that I heard of running a 15 sec times in the 1/4 was a 4.9 with a major slipping clutch issue or other mechanical issues. Bottom line is if your 4.9 is running 15s or even high 14s.... Something is very wrong with that car or engine or you cannot drive to save your life.

Oh yeah I forgot, The driver makes up a good percent of your ETA times.

Why are ppl such zombies ? The bs about the 4.9 engine swap grows per day Soon ppl will start thinking that everyone that owns a 4.9 sucks in RL. And lives in the ghetto.

Ppl really need to grow The F@ck up. It seems now of days, No one is happy unless there in a thread to stir sh!t up.

I have respect for any fiero owner that loves there car and tries to better it and puts love and money into it.
Soon this thread will turn into a chest pounding, Cave grunting flame p!ssing match.

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[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 07-03-2005).]

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: (Modified quote) "WOW" factor? Drive your Fiero EVERYDAY to work and grocery shopping...take it autocrossing...RIP mid 13 1/4 mile times...and still get 30+ mpg! WOW! And why does everyone talk about the 3800SC's being so powerful?. The 4.9 has more useable torque - from off-idle (instead of waiting halfway through the powerband)! The V8 rumble is more impressive and recognizeable - when people hear the 3800SC at the track they are like "WHAT the F**K is that - - a vacuum leak?? Go 4.9...you will not be disappointed and you won't be second guessing yourself after you do it. (end modified quote) Not much has been said about how the car handles after each conversion. Even though the 3800 goes well in a straight line, how many of us only go straight? The 3800 needs work on the suspension just to get the anchor in the back to drive around corners as well as the car did in stock form. OTOH, the 4.9 is so close to the original engine's weight that it instantly handles as well as stock - - you can go around corners fast, too!! Speaking of fast, the 3800 powered Fieros may go faster in the quarter, but the 4.9 will take them in the 1/8th and light-to-light. They also will give better mileage, and sound more like a car than a vacuum cleaner. Plus, you can supercharge a 4.9, but you can't add 2 cylinders to a 3800!! I have a friend that has 2 Fieros. He has a 3800SC in an 87GT, and a 4.9 in an 86SE. He drives the 4.9 as his daily driver, while he has his wife drive the 3800. Why? Because he thinks the V8 sounds more masculine , and the 3.8 sounds more like his whiney wife Now, all that being said, I have admiration for people that take the time to do either conversion. The end result of either conversion is: (1) Owner/Builder pride (2) Increased performance (both are rice-burners) (3) Longevity - both engines are sturdy and will give years of service (with proper maint) (4) Increased fuel mileage over the stock engine (5) The right to add your .02 in these types of discussions G

This is a good example of why we lose good ppl

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Cadero is the one who stirred things up. lildevil was just stating the facts, 3800SC's can get 12 second times easily, and over 30 mpg. And they do have more torque than a 4.9. Both a Supercharger and a V8 rumble can impress people too. About the 4.9's more usable torque, the thing has a short powerband with a redline of only 5k. I'd rather have my torque come at "halfway through the powerband" and have an existant top-end. Cadero you have nothing to back up your claim that 3800SC owners have to adjust their suspension or they can't handle corners, the fact that people are sticking these engines in fieros proves that they care about handling.

Personally I don't like either engine, the 4.9 may have the V8 rumble and torque I like, but I don't like the 5k redline and low HP (compared to the torque). The 3800SC has nice HP and overall performance but I don't like moving from 1 V6 to another V6. If I were to do a swap I'd probably stick in a LT1 or LS1, both engines have V8 rumble, a good redline and good hp, and a lot of torque. (I have a LS1 in my Camaro and its fast as hell)

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I am the signature virus, please put me in your signature so I can spread

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: Dude you are a moron, if you think a 4.9 is a 15 second car. My 2.8 clocked off better than that. Hell I pulled off a 14.6 in my 2.8 and I know that this 4.9 is much faster than that.

Sorry, mid 14's if you really are that passionate about it.. Just because something feels like it pulls really far down, doesn't mean it's fast if it runs out of breath.. I'm not 'bashing' either motor. I don't own either, so I'm not biased, nor do I plan on owning either. But from the times posted, the 3.8 is a faster motor.

quote Originally posted by lildevil: And there is NO way a 4.9 beats a 3800 to the 1/8 mile. Just face it...the 3800sc is a better all around motor then the 4.9.

What he said.

Did you know that the 4.9 can be made to go much faster and blow a lot of car away with simple mods by changing the cam for a more aggressive cam grind stiffer springs and using an adjustable cam sprocket to degree in the cam that allows you to increase your redline to 6000rpm or torque curve from massive low end or more mid range to high output .

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"King of the Hill" Twin Turbo V8 GT,
250hp Direct Injected Nitrous Oxide System
5.1 litre "PoD"Caddy Powered Widebody Exotic Super Car .(WIP)
"Juice and Boost"

"I like it when you call me Big Poppa"

Always Sunny Florida.

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Did you know that the 4.9 can be made to go much faster and blow a lot of car away with simple mods by changing the cam for a more aggressive cam grind stiffer springs and using an adjustable cam sprocket to degree in the cam that allows you to increase your redline to 6000rpm or torque curve from massive low end or more mid range to high output .

To the tune of 450 horsepower, if i'm not mistaken? Just imagine what would happen if you built it up with quarters instead of dimes?? You'd kill some ferrari's..

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Did you know that the 4.9 can be made to go much faster and blow a lot of car away with simple mods by changing the cam for a more aggressive cam grind stiffer springs and using an adjustable cam sprocket to degree in the cam that allows you to increase your redline to 6000rpm or torque curve from massive low end or more mid range to high output .

Or you could just install a N* and blow away said 4.9 Sounds like way to much work for not alot of benefit. May as well go with a newer motor with 300hp stock then spend a ton of money modifying a motor that was never designed for high hp.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: To the tune of 450 horsepower, if i'm not mistaken? Just imagine what would happen if you built it up with quarters instead of dimes?? You'd kill some ferrari's..

And more you're surely mistaken!!!! and if I used $$$ instead of quarters I would buy you some sense and some more green on your red ratings

------------------
"King of the Hill" Twin Turbo V8 GT,
250hp Direct Injected Nitrous Oxide System
5.1 litre "PoD"Caddy Powered Widebody Exotic Super Car .(WIP)
"Juice and Boost"

"I like it when you call me Big Poppa"

Always Sunny Florida.

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 07-03-2005).]

MTA, what kind of numbers are you looking to make with a TT that was designed for a 3L motor? Obviously the "5.1" may need a few more cfm than that turbo can produce efficiently.

I am very optimistic as to what I am looking for but will keep that till it is done tuned in and yes it came off a Supra that was converted to a bigger single turbo but at least it will be very competitive plus I will have the nitrous system .What ever the results I will send you personally a time slip from the track as dyno #s is not my performance indicator.

Hey, looking forward to it. I like when people post such numbers and proof of their claims.

quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: Every one of you guys needs to get a life. Holy crap. I dont understand why you feel the need to put down the other guys swap. .

What he said.... My goodness, like I said earlier the 3800SC is a beautiful motor. I probably will have one someday. The 4.9 is good too but it's not for everybody. I don't see the need for this thread to end up in the trash like so many 4.9 threads. Can't we all just get along??

quote Originally posted by jscott1: What he said.... My goodness, like I said earlier the 3800SC is a beautiful motor. I probably will have one someday. The 4.9 is good too but it's not for everybody. I don't see the need for this thread to end up in the trash like so many 4.9 threads. Can't we all just get along??

sadly no.. we all drive FIERO's, long as were beating the competition let the thread die

quote Originally posted by Tinton: Cadero is the one who stirred things up. lildevil was just stating the facts, 3800SC's can get 12 second times easily, and over 30 mpg. And they do have more torque than a 4.9. Both a Supercharger and a V8 rumble can impress people too. About the 4.9's more usable torque, the thing has a short powerband with a redline of only 5k. I'd rather have my torque come at "halfway through the powerband" and have an existant top-end. Cadero you have nothing to back up your claim that 3800SC owners have to adjust their suspension or they can't handle corners, the fact that people are sticking these engines in fieros proves that they care about handling. Personally I don't like either engine, the 4.9 may have the V8 rumble and torque I like, but I don't like the 5k redline and low HP (compared to the torque). The 3800SC has nice HP and overall performance but I don't like moving from 1 V6 to another V6. If I were to do a swap I'd probably stick in a LT1 or LS1, both engines have V8 rumble, a good redline and good hp, and a lot of torque. (I have a LS1 in my Camaro and its fast as hell)

If you talk to Rockcrawl he will tell you that the stock 4.9 chip is set at a 5300 RPM red line. After my port work, larger cam and new intake my 4.9 will rev to 6000-6500 RPM. Ask some people on here who have been for a ride at the Auburn show this weekend if you dont believe me.

I have a question for most of you. For those that dont like the 3800SC, have you ever ridden in/driven one?
For those of you who hate the 4.9, have you ever ridden in/driven one? If the answer is no then you have no right to be spouting s*** because you know nothing.

I personally have driven both. I have a good friend who has a 3800SC in his 87 GT. At the drag strip the best time I could get the thing to run was a 13.9. This is with a stock engine mated to a 5 speed Getrag. There was a small ammount of tire spin, but not a whole lot. I like the engine. It did feel a small bit faster than my 4.9 did when it was stock. I really need to get my 4.9 out to the track now that the mods are done to it.

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: And more you're surely mistaken!!!! and if I used $$$ instead of quarters I would buy you some sense and some more green on your red ratings

Well said

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: And more you're surely mistaken!!!! and if I used $$$ instead of quarters I would buy you some sense and some more green on your red ratings

Nah, I'd rather be me and put up with some red in the bar.. The ratings bar is not exactly a symbol of your personality.