quote Originally posted by FieroMaster88: I have a question for most of you. For those that dont like the 3800SC, have you ever ridden in/driven one? For those of you who hate the 4.9, have you ever ridden in/driven one? If the answer is no then you have no right to be spouting s*** because you know nothing. I personally have driven both. I have a good friend who has a 3800SC in his 87 GT. At the drag strip the best time I could get the thing to run was a 13.9. This is with a stock engine mated to a 5 speed Getrag. There was a small ammount of tire spin, but not a whole lot. I like the engine. It did feel a small bit faster than my 4.9 did when it was stock. I really need to get my 4.9 out to the track now that the mods are done to it.

I've driven a 4.9. It was damned quick. Haven't ever driven a 3800SC. I hope to, some day.

From what I've heard/read, I'll give ya' that the stock 3800SC is faster, in absolute terms, and also cheaper to get another few HP out of.
Due to its weight savings, the 4.9 has the potential to handle a little better. Personally, I wonder how many of us are good enough drivers that the weight savings would actually make a difference.
Turn-key, the 3800SC seems to be running about $2-3K (USD) more. (If I'm wrong, I hope someone will speak up.)

The bottom line is, really, that either of these swaps will make a Fiero a blast to drive, and quicker than probably 97% of the cars on the road.
Certainly fast enough to scare the living hell out of our parents, wives, or significant others. Well, many of them, anyway.
In the end, it all boils down to personal preference.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-03-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto: Did you know that the 4.9 can be made to go much faster and blow a lot of car away with simple mods by changing the cam for a more aggressive cam grind stiffer springs and using an adjustable cam sprocket to degree in the cam that allows you to increase your redline to 6000rpm or torque curve from massive low end or more mid range to high output .

did you know you could do that to the 3800 alot easier and with better results?

Before the dollar took a nosedive, (compared to the Canadian dollar) I got my 4.9 done for about $5k-$7K less than your turnkey 3800SC.

Both swaps are fairly cheap if you do them yourself. Turnkey is another matter, PJB does nice work for a good price. He also installs 3800sc's

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Turn-key, the 3800SC seems to be running about $2-3K (USD) more. (If I'm wrong, I hope someone will speak up.)

That doesn't sound right to me, but the reason why is probably due to the engine and mileage. True that you can probably pick up a used 4.9 very cheap, but very likely it is going to have a ton of miles on it. The same can be said for a complete 3800SC, I know of a 97 GTP engine with 120,000mi on it that just sold for $150. But most people prefer to have lower mile engines. The problem is the 4.9 hasn't been made for a while now but the 3800SC still is. So if you want a new one you can order it from GM, or you can get a nearly-new one from salvage yards that buy stuff damaged in transit. So I consider the cost of the engine to be relative to the mileage that is on it, therefore either 3800SC or 4.9 is going to be comparible and very close in price.

With that aside, I honestly don't see how the 3800SC can cost a lot more to do. Both need custom mounts, both need custom wiring, both need custom exhaust, induction, etc amoung other things so if anything they should cost the same to do...

quote Originally posted by 86fieroEarl: Question to all the 3800sc guys. What is the weakest part of a 3800sc ? And can you buy aftermarket alluminum heads ?

The weakest part of the 3800SC (Series2) engines are the pistons. Everything else in the engine has been proven to be able to handle more than 600hp stock. The reason why the pistons are so weak is because they are hypereutectic and have a very tight ring package to comply with emissions. This means the pistons don't like detonation. To make matters worse, the stock piston ring gaps are very tight (also to comply with emissions) so they can't handle the added heat of much more boost than stock. With that being said, I know for a fact even the stock pistons are good to low 12's in a Fiero, because that is what I am running. I am pretty sure there are some people going faster using the stock slugs than I am.

I heard a rumor that someone got ahold of some prototype aluminum heads for the 3800 but I don't know if this rumor is true. But even if it were, WHY would you need them? Overall they would only save maybe 30lbs off the total weight of the engine. I come up with that figure because 3800 heads are much smaller than SBC heads and cast iron SBC heads weigh 50lbs each. Alum SBC heads weigh approx 25lbs each. Anyway, getting back to the 3800... 30lbs is nothing, just over 4 gal of gas makes up that difference. Besides that, the stock 3800 heads as-cast flow pretty decent, and just mild porting can make lots of improvements. In short, you don't need aftermarket heads for the 3800.

quote Originally posted by MTA: Did you know that the 4.9 can be made to go much faster and blow a lot of car away with simple mods by changing the cam for a more aggressive cam grind stiffer springs and using an adjustable cam sprocket to degree in the cam that allows you to increase your redline to 6000rpm or torque curve from massive low end or more mid range to high output .

Have to disagree here. First off, changing a cam and springs IS NOT A SIMPLE MOD. Most people don't have the proper tools to do these types of mods correctly. (I would classify swaping out stock rocker arms for higher ratio units as a "simple mod".) Secondly, and I hate to point this out, but I don't recall anyone posting dyno sheets of a very high-HP producing 4.9 making great power thru 6000rpm. Again, I'm not saying it can't be done; all I am saying is I haven't seen proof that it has been done.

The 3800SC, on the other hand; well there is all kinds of stuff out there, both here in the Fiero community and even more being done in the GTP/Regal GS/Bonneville communities.

I did my turnkey 3800 SC for less than 3K and I know exactly what was done to it. I am putting together my 88 GT 5 speed 3800 SC now and will have a little over 2 K in to it.. So thats about 5 K for 2 3800 SC cars by doing the turnkey option myself, I would say you cant beat that. But then again if you dont have the mechanical ablility to do your own turnkey, then you have no other choice but to pay someone else to do it.

I like staying out of threads like these but here is some my take on it.

4 years we ran the same bone yard 4.9 engine, with a home made turbo system.

It has over 450 1/4 mile runs in a stock 86GT with full trim and working a/c, and automatic transmission. Best and duplicatable best time of 12.2 in the 1/4. Running equal with the highly modified 3800 s/c, including internal modes and power pullies. The difference I see is us having no engine failure in 4 years and running less than half the boost pressure to turn the same 1/4 times.

IMO both 3800 and 4.9's are great engines. Remember the 4.9 is rated 200 hp and the 3800 s/c is rated around 240 hp. So you should hope that the 40 hp more should make a difference, isn't there 40 hp difference between a duke and a 2.8? Both engines can be modified and if you have the knowledge to do an engine swap I would think you have the ability to read a manual and swap out a camshaft.

Pete

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quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: <snip> I have admiration for people that take the time to do either conversion. The end result of either conversion is: (1) Owner/Builder pride (2) Increased performance (both are rice-burners) (3) Longevity - both engines are sturdy and will give years of service (with proper maint) (4) Increased fuel mileage over the stock engine (5) The right to add your .02 in these types of discussions G

There seems to be 3 problems with my earlier post. First and foremost, obviously nobody read the part I quoted above. I think that if they did, they (secondly) would understood the tongue-in-cheek paraphrase of lildevil -inserting the opposite engine - and (lastly) they would have understood that the reference to Kenny and his wife was intended as humor, including smiley faces.

Now, the fact that there is so much emotion to this topic only tells me that both sides of this camp are equally right (or "wrong"). A lot of misrepresentations have been posted in this thread (and every other thread about this comparison). About both powerplants.

But first and foremost, there is no "better" motor.

ACCELERATION?? Yes, with both engines in stock form, the 3800SC is faster in the quarter. It catches up to the harder launching 4.9 just about halfway down the strip, and pulls away from it for about a car lengths win. All the other 3.8 conversions can't say that, however - - just the SC. And the first half (1/8 mile, for your benefit, lildevil) belongs to the 4.9. That's because the peak torque is just off idle, that's when this engine pulls. And yes, the reason that the 3800SC pulls past at the end is that the 4.9 runs out of breath and the 3800 doesn't - it is a blown motor. But it isn't at 5K that the 4.9 runs out, BTW - my valves start to float around 5800 and the limiter on my 305SBC computer is set a 6K. I have bumped that limiter more than a few times! The engine is just past it's curve at that point - an earlier shift would have put the engine back into it's powerband and had it pulling stronger than just simply rev'ing it up.

HANDLING?? Whether it's pn the street or an autocross course, the 4.9 is a much better choice. Without expounding, is there any 3800SC owners that would like to take my daily driver on at an autocross? Sure, they can throw some $ at the 3800 suspension to make it just "OK" handling, but the same amount spent on the 4.9 will turn it into a "G" monster. The 3800 is much heavier - 75lbs is just the bare engine block. Add the SC and plumbing - - in a ready-to-install, fan blade to flywheel weight comparison, the 4.9 is well over a hundred pounds lighter.

LOOKS? The 3800 conversion is a neater looking conversion. Hands down.

COST? The 4.9 is a weekend project costing little or no money (depending on the skill level of the swapper) . But the 3800SC is also almost equally inexpensive as engine swaps go. I would call this part of the comparison a wash.

MILEAGE?? Both pretty equal here, also. I think that this is a relative factor. How deep in the throttle is your foot? The 3800 seems to give a little more mileage in "normal" driving, the 4.9 in "spirited" driving. But we are talking just a mile or 2 difference, even at the extremes.

BETTER engine? What are the standards for "better"? Faster in the 1/4? That doesn't make an engine better. Neater install? ditto. Nor being lighter, or giving good mileage. There IS no better, just different. Different strong points, and yes, different weak points.

So, with my tongue OUT of my cheek I will say that both are fun conversions. See the quote above. When you take the emotion out of the issue, it boils down to what you want to do with the car when you get done. And what ticks your tock.

G

[This message has been edited by cadero2dmax (edited 07-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: They both have there good points. It you want a rat racer street killer go 4.9 If you want a top speed car go 3800SC Trying to compare a 3800SC to a 4.9 is like trying to compare a Honda S2000 to a Dodge Viper. They are both fast, they just do it in different ways.

you know what, this is entirely false.. maybe you guys have yrou egines poorly tuned.. but an SC makes boost instantly.. the 3800SC has lots of low end torque.. it is an OHV pushrod engine with a fairly mild camshaft in stock form.. the 3800sc's low end isn't far off from the 4.9L, not at all..

I just finished my 4.9 conversion. I kept an excel sheet of every expense including the fuel required to go and get the long distance parts. Total Cost Canadain $$ 3157.

That included a new 5spd conversion at the same time.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 07-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: In the end, it all boils down to personal preference.

Cost is such a mute point as Darth states, Engine cost varies with mileage. Also if you do the work yourself you save a lot.
Archie did a V-8 SBC swap using used parts for just under $4K. I know places that charge $9K for a 4.9 swap. I have seen swaps prices vary from as little as $1500 and as high as $14K. Usually the lower cost ones were done by the owners and the higher ones done by a shop.

As Raydar states, It is all personal preference. My advice is to take a few rides in other Fiero's that have the swaps you are interested in, then decide which engine is right for you.

As for 1/4 mile times, Just about any engine can be modified for more power. Some people base which engine they swap on dyno's and 1/4 mile times only. Some people don't really car about 1/4 mile times or dyno's. If you are not drag racing the car, why does it matter what it runs in the 1/4 mile? You can add NOS to an engine and improve your 1/4 mile time. But some prefer street rods, some prefer AutoX, and others prefer road courses. It is all up to the owner as they decide what they want to use the car for. I do recommend that if you do mod an engine that you have it tuned on a dyno. Not so much for attaining max power, But an engine that is tuned correctly will run better, get better gas mileage, and be more reliable.

Finally, I have rode in (and in some cases driven) many cars with different swaps. Each swap has it's pro's and con's. It is up to the person who wants a swap to decide which pro's and con's are important to him.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: Cost is such a mute point

I my opinion cost is not a mute point. If you do the work yourself of course it's cheaper. But my definition of turnkey means I walk in the door with a wad of cash and a few days/weeks later I walk out with the car finished.

When I was shopping for a turnkey engine swap the 4.9 was cheaper hands down. If there is a person out there doing 3800SC conversions for less than $5K USD give me their name and number and they will have a new customer.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: you know what, this is entirely false.. maybe you guys have yrou egines poorly tuned.. but an SC makes boost instantly.. the 3800SC has lots of low end torque.. it is an OHV pushrod engine with a fairly mild camshaft in stock form.. the 3800sc's low end isn't far off from the 4.9L, not at all..

A centrifugal supercharger (as is on the 3800SC motors) DOES provide boost at idle. But not near max boost - their housing gradually increases in diameter to the outlet, their impeller rotates and compresses the air charge (similar to a turbocharger). So, also like a turbocharger, boost increases as the RPM of the impeller increases - with engine RPM. The 3800SC cannot provide maximum boost (or power) off-idle, it has to have RPM build-up of the impeller to do it. And that is the advantage that the 4.9 has off-idle.

Only a Rootes type blower can give full boost at idle, and you will never see a Rootes-type blower on a production car unless it is an expensive exotic - it is too costly for standard production cars, and the engine life would be very limited!

A STOCK 4.9 against a STOCK 3800SC is what my references have all been about. Pete set the record straight about throwing $ and development into either motor. They both CAN be 11 or 12 second machines. PBJ and Rockcrawl's 4.9s, lildevil and FieroX's 3800SCs have proven that! But STOCK, the 4.9 is a high 13 and the 3800 a mid 13 quarter-miler conversion, with the 4.9 quicker for the first block or so. Even with stock motors, neither conversion is slow!

Instead of beating each other up, why don't we all just go find some Hondas, SRT4's, and WRX's to beat up on??

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: A centrifugal supercharger (as is on the 3800SC motors) DOES provide boost at idle.

Centrifugal SC:

These are almost like turbo's in a sense...they need to be "spooled" up. I know for a fact that they do not allways provide boost off the line, as I had a powerdyne unit installed in a 97 Firebird w/ the L36 motor.

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: Only a Rootes type blower can give full boost at idle, and you will never see a Rootes-type blower on a production car unless it is an expensive exotic - it is too costly for standard production cars, and the engine life would be very limited!

"Roots" styled SC installed on a Stock SSEi Motor.

I think that the blower that you are thinking of is a WHIPPLE, not the Eaton's that are installed by GM on their SC'd motors.

Here's a guy form Club Grand Prix that is actually putting the Whipple ( what I think that you were refering to ) onto the L67 blocks via a super cool adapter plate:

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[This message has been edited by mcaanda (edited 07-04-2005).]

How much do you guys with the 3800 II S/C engine get city/highway mpg(please note if you had mods or not)
Same for the 4.9 guys??

Thanks and go back to your reguarly scheduled debate

quote Originally posted by Fiero Finale: How much do you guys with the 3800 II S/C engine get city/highway mpg(please note if you had mods or not) Same for the 4.9 guys?? Thanks and go back to your reguarly scheduled debate

mods sometimes increase it. I read over on clubgp numerous people with rockers getting 4? mpg better.

last big trip I took I got 200 half a tank, same as my 3.4 so pulling 400 to tank should be no problem. That's using spark plugs 3 ranges colder and a 160 tstat so that's not helping matters way I got it figured is about 33.6-35? highway I'm guessing low to mid 20's town? I have my sprints on the freeway and little bursts mostly in town I like the noise.

4.9 will be the same on the freeway my friends caddy gets 26-27? and you know going in a fiero that it'll be a given on better gas mileage.

[This message has been edited by LoW_KeY (edited 07-04-2005).]

mcaanda

No, you are completely right. I blew it - -.

I should have compared the Eaton M90 supercharger (as used on the 3800SC) to a centrigugal type such as the ProCharger style that you pictured - - in performance! I know that the Eaton unit has a belt drive that turns two helix rotors. This is a spin-off of the true Rootes type blower (like the Whipple you pictured, and the GM family of 3-71 to 14-71). But the Eaton DOES offer a little more boost at idle than the centrifugals, and almost as much boost as when they are spooled up.

The Eatons are MUCH smaller, however, than the true Rootes. Their smaller inlet and deep tapered outlet are what makes them similar in performance to a centrifugal. The Eaton's are more efficient and quiter than a true Rootes (or a centrifugal, for that matter). That and the fact that they offer (comparative) nominal boost make them practical for mass production a lot more than a true Rootes type blower.

I am not bad mouthing the Eaton's, either. Quite frankly, at one point I was looking for a M112 Eaton for my 4.9 - - - - after I learned about the ProCharger's lag (similar to what you stated about your Powerdyne) - - but that's another story.

Anyway, sorry for the misrepresentation.

That "stock" motor you pictured has a pretty large set of headers, maybe 3 inches??. That should indicate just how stock that motor really is!

G

quote Originally posted by cadero2dmax: That "stock" motor you pictured has a pretty large set of headers, maybe 3 inches??. That should indicate just how stock that motor really is! G

Definition of "stock" huh... LOL...

I do have a few "go fast" goodies installed, the modular 3.4" pulley, and the headers are non-stock, but essentially the rest of the block is. No EVAP, EGR, Boost Control Solenoid & CAT round out the list of "non-stock" items either removed and or disabled.

Good call, I should have been a little more specific on what I had stated as stock and what not.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I my opinion cost is not a mute point. If you do the work yourself of course it's cheaper. But my definition of turnkey means I walk in the door with a wad of cash and a few days/weeks later I walk out with the car finished. When I was shopping for a turnkey engine swap the 4.9 was cheaper hands down. If there is a person out there doing 3800SC conversions for less than $5K USD give me their name and number and they will have a new customer.

What I mean by a "mute point" is any swap is going to have two costs. The cost of the engine and the cost of the labor/parts to install.
The cost of the engine varies by location and mileage. Labor is based on how much someone is willing to do the work. If you search hard enough you can get an engine cheap, so the only cost is labor. Labor varies as much as the cost of the engine. From your post it sounds like you found someone to do a turn-key install of a 4.9L for less than $5K, Did that include the engine? I had a written quote of $9000 for a 4.9L that included the cost of a freshly rebuilt engine. (this was from a place that specializes in and is known to do very good 4.9L swaps.) WCF advertises $6990 + engine for a 3800SC swap. I'm sure there are a few people that are doing swaps for less. So depending on who does the swap and how much the engine costs, You would be paying about the same for each swap.
WIth the 4.9L quote there was also travel/shipping costs as they were located in a southern state. For about $800 more than the 4.9L quote I had a Brand New ZZ4 crate engine (with warranty) installed locally to me.

Also location has a lot to do with it as well. Down by you there may be someone doing 4.9L swaps for a decent price. But up in Washington where the originator of this thread lives, Shipping a car from Washington to Texas, then flying down to pick it up and driving back would be an added cost to the swap. Where he may be able to spend a few dollars more to have a 3800SC installed closer to his home which may end up being the same bottom line cost as a 4.9L with all the shipping/travel costs. If you found someone doing a 3800SC in say Minnesota for under $5K, Would you pay the cost to ship the car (or drive there) and do the same for picking it up? Would you count this expense as part of the swap?

So since location, engine cost, and labor cost all vary, the cost of the swap is a mute point.

Everyone dreams about a faster car. I've got a broken '88 GT thats been sitting in my driveway since 1999. Every time I walk out to my mustang I can't help but look at it and think of how much I'd rather be driving the fiero. I have a limited mechancial knowlege.. I don't think I could do a swap by myself. I don't see a point in putting a fresh 2.8 back in if for about the same amount I could have a 4.9 or a 3800 and have it be more reliable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, fieros with 3800's and 4.9's are more reliable than stock with nothing more then routine maintience required.

quote Originally posted by BDF88GT: Everyone dreams about a faster car. I've got a broken '88 GT thats been sitting in my driveway since 1999. Every time I walk out to my mustang I can't help but look at it and think of how much I'd rather be driving the fiero. I have a limited mechancial knowlege.. I don't think I could do a swap by myself. I don't see a point in putting a fresh 2.8 back in if for about the same amount I could have a 4.9 or a 3800 and have it be more reliable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand, fieros with 3800's and 4.9's are more reliable than stock with nothing more then routine maintience required.

Correct

and double correct when you take into the account that most people push the 2.8 to its limits to have fun with the car, where as with the motor swap guys they dont NEED to hammer the gas to get the car to boogie adn see some factor in of the car.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

quote Originally posted by Oreif: From your post it sounds like you found someone to do a turn-key install of a 4.9L for less than $5K, Did that include the engine? If you found someone doing a 3800SC in say Minnesota for under $5K, Would you pay the cost to ship the car (or drive there) and do the same for picking it up? Would you count this expense as part of the swap?

In principle I agree with everything you said. In reality though it is possible to get a 4.9 from the junk yard that doesn't need rebuilding a lot easier than a 3800SC. You can buy the whole car running in most cases for less than the 3800SC, then sell off the parts and get the engine for nearly free. I know it's possible to get a good deal on a 3800SC too, but when I go to the yard there must be a dozen or more 4.9s and most if not all were not drag raced or abused in any way. It's possible to get a good deal a lot easier. So the answer to your first question is yes

Acually I had my swap done in London Ontario which I believe is farther from Texas than Minnesota so the answer to your second question is yes. But I have my own trailer I can ship the car far cheaper than if I had to pay someone. So for me transportation costs is a moot point. Also it's possible to combine the trip with one you are already making...I had a business trip to Toronto and actually got paid to drive the car home versus flying, (it was cheaper), so the answer to your third question is no.

I renew my offer, if there is anyone in North America that is doing turnkey 3800SC swaps for $5K USD or less, (including the engine), let me know.

[This message has been edited by jscott1 (edited 07-04-2005).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I renew my offer, if there is anyone in North America that is doing turnkey 3800SC swaps for $5K USD or less, (including the engine), let me know.

I will!

edit... Minor fine print, ie. used engine, fiero trans, performance parts extra, no a/c.....

Pete

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[This message has been edited by PBJ (edited 07-04-2005).]

moot.. It's moot..

quote Originally posted by PBJ: I will! ...Pete

Well I guess Orief was right on every point.

I won't hold you to it Pete, but it will probably be next year, at least, before the car I have in mind is ready for the engine. But I look forward to another trip to Ontario!

quote Originally posted by lildevil: And there is NO way a 4.9 beats a 3800 to the 1/8 mile. Just face it...the 3800sc is a better all around motor then the 4.9

All things being equal, I would say that its a close call.. Using the ever popular program "Car test", which is supposed to be over 95% accurate with it's predictions, i plugged in the specs of each engine and ran them using the stock weight and specs of an '86 fiero GT. Here are the results with screen captures of them. ALL tests were run using the 4t60eHD transmission with the following specs:

2.97:1 final drive ratio
2.92:1 1st gear
1.56:1 2nd gear
1.00:1 3rd gear
0.70:1 4th gear

a test weight of 2700 pounds was used for the 4.9L and a weight of 2800 pounds was used for the 3800SC engines:

Stock 4.9L, 200 hp@4400rpm, 275 lb ft@3000rpm, 0-60mph in 6.0 sec.,
0-100ft. in 3.0 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.9 sec., 1/4mi. in 14.6 sec.@95.0mph

Fastchips ($150 eprom) 4.9L, 220 hp@4400 rpm, 290 lb ft@3000rpm, 0-60mph in 5.7 sec.,
0-100ft. in 2.9 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.7 sec., 1/4mi. in 14.2 sec.@97.6mph

Stock 3800SC S2, 240 hp@5200rpm, 280 lb ft@3600rpm, 0-60mph in 5.8 sec.,
0-100ft. in 3.0 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.8 sec., 1/4 mi. in 14.2 sec.@98.8mph

Stock 3800SC S3, 260 hp@5400rpm, 280 lb ft@3600rpm, 0-60mph in 5.6 sec.,
0-100ft. in 3.0 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.7 sec., 1/4 mi. in 14.0 sec.@100.4mph

Of course, real world results may vary from driver to driver and engine to engine, depending on many variables, but all in all, it's a close race. The reason why i threw in performance numbers using the superchips eprom, is because MOST of the people on here use rockcrawl's chip, which is pretty maximized, so i would assume it uses a timing/fuel curve similar to that of superchips, or perhaps even slightly better. Do the 3800sc engines have more potential? Of course they do, forced induction always is a big advantage, however, it takes loads of money to do so. But, there is no denying it now, a rockcrawl chipped 4.9L is more than likely faster than a stock 3800 sc series 2 off the line. the series 3 3800 is a different story all together, however, MOST of the 3800sc swaps are series 2 swaps. Everyone can argue, " with a simple SC pulley upigrade I can get 'x' amount of HP from the 3800, and blah blah blah"... well, of course you can! The point is, the 4.9L is a cheap swap, and it puts up virtually the same numbers, and to most people, it SOUNDS a whole lot better. It's the smarter buy, period, not to mention, if something breaks, they are a dime a dozen in junkyards now, since early nineties cars are the most abundant in the yards now. Anyways, anybody can feel free to ask me questions about the tests i ran using car test. please email me directly too, aside from repsonding to this thread, aaronrus@earthlink.net

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: The point is, the 4.9L is a cheap swap, and it puts up virtually the same numbers, and to most people, it SOUNDS a whole lot better. It's the smarter buy, period, not to mention, if something breaks, they are a dime a dozen in junkyards now, since early nineties cars are the most abundant in the yards now.

Interesting to note that a Rockcrawl, but otherwise stock 4.9 should run about 14.2 in the 1/4. Like you said there are tons of mods to make 3800SCs faster, but you stated the main point beautifully, the 4.9L is a cheap and easy swap that yields pretty good results.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: All things being equal, I would say that its a close call.. Using the ever popular program "Car test", which is supposed to be over 95% accurate with it's predictions, i plugged in the specs of each engine and ran them using the stock weight and specs of an '86 fiero GT. Here are the results with screen captures of them. ALL tests were run using the 4t60eHD transmission with the following specs: 2.97:1 final drive ratio 2.92:1 1st gear 1.56:1 2nd gear 1.00:1 3rd gear 0.70:1 4th gear a test weight of 2700 pounds was used for the 4.9L and a weight of 2800 pounds was used for the 3800SC engines: Stock 4.9L, 200 hp@4400rpm, 275 lb ft@3000rpm, 0-60mph in 6.0 sec., 0-100ft. in 3.0 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.9 sec., 1/4mi. in 14.6 sec.@95.0mph Fastchips ($150 eprom) 4.9L, 220 hp@4400 rpm, 290 lb ft@3000rpm, 0-60mph in 5.7 sec., 0-100ft. in 2.9 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.7 sec., 1/4mi. in 14.2 sec.@97.6mph Stock 3800SC S2, 240 hp@5200rpm, 280 lb ft@3600rpm, 0-60mph in 5.8 sec., 0-100ft. in 3.0 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.8 sec., 1/4 mi. in 14.2 sec.@98.8mph Stock 3800SC S3, 260 hp@5400rpm, 280 lb ft@3600rpm, 0-60mph in 5.6 sec., 0-100ft. in 3.0 sec., 0-500ft. in 7.7 sec., 1/4 mi. in 14.0 sec.@100.4mph Of course, real world results may vary from driver to driver and engine to engine, depending on many variables, but all in all, it's a close race. The reason why i threw in performance numbers using the superchips eprom, is because MOST of the people on here use rockcrawl's chip, which is pretty maximized, so i would assume it uses a timing/fuel curve similar to that of superchips, or perhaps even slightly better. Do the 3800sc engines have more potential? Of course they do, forced induction always is a big advantage, however, it takes loads of money to do so. But, there is no denying it now, a rockcrawl chipped 4.9L is more than likely faster than a stock 3800 sc series 2 off the line. the series 3 3800 is a different story all together, however, MOST of the 3800sc swaps are series 2 swaps. Everyone can argue, " with a simple SC pulley upigrade I can get 'x' amount of HP from the 3800, and blah blah blah"... well, of course you can! The point is, the 4.9L is a cheap swap, and it puts up virtually the same numbers, and to most people, it SOUNDS a whole lot better. It's the smarter buy, period, not to mention, if something breaks, they are a dime a dozen in junkyards now, since early nineties cars are the most abundant in the yards now. Anyways, anybody can feel free to ask me questions about the tests i ran using car test. please email me directly too, aside from repsonding to this thread, aaronrus@earthlink.net

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/034445.html

whats interesting is that if you look at the official 1/4 mile list there is only 1 3800SC in the 14's at all and its a series-1 - but there are two NA3800's running low to mid 14's - all the other "stock" 3800SC's are running 13's and most of the modifieds are running 12's - and by modified we are talking as little as an 80$ pulley change

yes the 4.9 can be made into a 12 second engine - but IMO its a bad choice of an engine because its becoming more and more scarce and finding replacement parts for it when it does break or needs a rebuild is going to be very difficult and expensive.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/034445.html yes the 4.9 can be made into a 12 second engine - but IMO its a bad choice of an engine because its becoming more and more scarce and finding replacement parts for it when it does break or needs a rebuild is going to be very difficult and expensive.

Any engine can be made to run faster and it comes down to money and desire ........ as for the 4.9 and the 350 SBC these will never get scarce as there are engines aplenty to go around as you can see by these production ###s:

Cadillac's model year production totaled 225,830 compared with 233,027 the year previous.
Based on sales of 204,159 automobiles in 1993 (vs. 214,176 the year before), Cadillac’s share of the U.S. market was 2.40 percent compared with 2.61 the year previous.

so these engines can be had fairly cheap for the above reason.In choosing a motor for a swap there is no bad choice wheather it be a Quad 4,3800sc,4.9, 3.4 dohc, 305 ,350 it is a personal choice made by the owner based on finances or availability or right place at the right time so there is no reason to tell a potential swapper what they must choose may be it might be great for you but not to some one else. All the current engines out there has their strong and weak points and is 100% improvement over the stock power plant that came with the car so all these comparison can be tossed in the garbage it makes no sense and power is power if it is Nos turbo or supercharged carb or fuel injection high or low tech .
As for replacement cost for parts nothing is cheap when speed is involved it is magnified but that is the price you pay so why complain when it was a choice you knew of when you decide to swap engines .

[This message has been edited by Master Tuner Akimoto (edited 07-05-2005).]

Geesh...I've been reading these posts for engine swaps for months, either way I couldn't afford an engine swap. I'd just be happy to get mine painted. Maybe the next posting might have someone tryin to put a turbine in....hmmmmm

I ran 12.20's with a pulley swap,DHP pCM ,and 200 dollar rockers. Stuuf i got on the internet and bolted on in a couple of hours. On street tires. That was a 7.8 1/8 mile time @ 88 mph. Oh and 1.7 60 foot. Show me a 4.9 that has done that with that little of mods. The car weighs 2850 as proven by the HighPerformance Pontiac article my car was in. Jus curious anyone weigh their 4.9 cars? The main reason the 4.9 are cheaper is because the engines are cheap. Why are they cheap? Cause they are old and they are not desirable. Yes you can make a 3800 fast as shown by PBJ and Rockcrawl but Harry Homeowner is not going to beable to do what they did. They did ALOT of tuning to get what they did. With the 3800 you get proven perforamnce...jus go to www.ZZPerformance.com or visit the 1/4 mile list on here.

I am done with this thread. Go ahead and get a 4.9, that way I won't have to worry about being bumped from my spot on the 1/4 mile list.

[This message has been edited by lildevil (edited 07-05-2005).]

Aaron,
Interesting software you used, but I do not know of a single stock SC3800 in the 14's. Mine ran 13.8 in summer heat and 13.4 in the fall and winter, STOCK. No pulley swap. 4T60E trans. And my car is a HEAVY 1988 GT. I am guessing easliy 3000-3100 pounds.

Don't need software when there is an abundance of real life data.

software I think is a really touchy matter. I put my 3.4 stats in and gave me some far off time, I ran 14.9@92 with it I imagine I could've gotten better, but that was the last run before deciding to go home.

My friends 87 GT with a stock 3800SC series 2 ran a best of 13.97 at the track. Not too bad. I hope to have my 4.9 in the mid 13's with the mods I have now (cam, ported heads and intake, Allante intake) and in the 12's with nitrous. I dont know why some of you feel the need to be dicks about the two swaps.

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/034445.html whats interesting is that if you look at the official 1/4 mile list there is only 1 3800SC in the 14's at all and its a series-1 - but there are two NA3800's running low to mid 14's - all the other "stock" 3800SC's are running 13's and most of the modifieds are running 12's - and by modified we are talking as little as an 80$ pulley change yes the 4.9 can be made into a 12 second engine - but IMO its a bad choice of an engine because its becoming more and more scarce and finding replacement parts for it when it does break or needs a rebuild is going to be very difficult and expensive.

1) MOST fieros weigh a couple hundred pounds less than the test weights i used. I was being conservative
2) tranmission choice as well as differential choice make a wide array of performance numbers, ( plus some people flat out lie . The transmission choice i used was much more of an economy gearing.
3) a 1/4 mile is still a relatively short distance. Torque wins short races, and these engines are virtually identical when it comes to peak Torque. the 4.9L's off-idle Torque is somewhat larger than a 3800sc s2, enough to make a difference and help even out there 1/4 mile performance.
4) a 4.9L isn't bad choice at all. I'm not sure where you live, but 4.9L engeins are almost a diem a dozen at junkyards now. Everytime i go to the junkyard, theres a new early nineties caddy that just pulled in with a 4.9L in it. they are QUITE common.

In your opinion.