Maybe it would be best to settle down and talk it over the phone in a polite manner. It may work out for both of you.

Those are my two cents,

quote Originally posted by Archie: Hey people, go read the threads, the facts are all there!!! Archie

I live in the bay area and know all the people out here. I've heard these people's side. My understanding is that the clutch went straight from the manufacturer (Robin) to Archie. Robin sold the clutch direct to Archie. Why would George have to refund money for a clutch he didn't sell? If Archie bought the clutch from George, OK, but that's not how I understand it.

If my facts are in error, I'll stand corrected. But if the clutch was purchased *direct* from the manufacturer, then it's a matter between the customer and manufacturer, isn't it?

I'm not trying to dump on anyone, just telling you what I've heard and seen on this end.

Sure, you have all the facts from one side.

Read the Threads!!!

If you don't want to read the threads then at least read the posts (in order) that have been made by George. His story has changed 4 or 5 times..... see if any of those stories matches the one you were told.

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 07-08-2001).]

I can't believe this is not resolved yet... Sheesh... Archie, I am sorry that you are having to do all of this. I was neutral at the beginning of all of this, but since I play the role of customer myself I am swinging to your side. It is obvious to me that you are not going to get satisfaction on this and that neither of the other parties gives a rat's @ss what you or anyone else here on the forum thinks. One even said that... I would be very upset! My money is hard to come by and I surely can't afford to buy crap that won't hold up and then no one be willing to make it right.

At this point I agree... Call the BBB. I think the damage has already been done on the forum, so it is time to take the next step.

And btw, I kinda like your clutch on the wall pic. Would make a nice sig for a while. Maybe with a copy of the receipt for the clutch right beside it...

------------------

Tennessee Fiero Owners

I have to agree with Songman. It appears the Forum isn't going to be able to help anymore. If everyone's trying to get in touch with the other party in good faith, it would have happened by now. I say talk to the BBB, Archie. And I love the idea about the clutch pic in a sig file. Just a subtle reminder.

Even if George isn't at fault here, or has no liability, if I were him, I'd be all over Robin to solve this cause it's making both Robin and George look bad by dragging on. If there's going to be no refund, etc., then the person with the power to make that decision needs to tell Archie that and why. One way or another, somebody needs to put this issue to rest.

quote Originally posted by Songman: this and that neither of the other parties gives a rat's @ss what you or anyone else here on the forum thinks. One even said that... I would be very upset! My money is

That might have been me, but I was talking about George's licensing.

quote And btw, I kinda like your clutch on the wall pic. Would make a nice sig for a while. Maybe with a copy of the receipt for the clutch right beside it...

Now, there's an idea, the key to this whole problem. My understanding (being out here in the bay area) is that Archie bought the clutch directly from Robin, and payed Robin. Archie, do you have a receipt or invoice? If so, scan it and post it. Whoever's company name is on the receipt, they're the guy you gotta deal with. Whaddya say?

Here is another suggestion to get your money back and then some.

I hear "abstract art", like that you now have hanging on your wall , people are willing to pay thousands upon thousands (if not millions) of dollars for it.

You can call it the "Parts from Robin" and make a small fortune. Heck! Try eBay! They sold Brittney Spear Air!

Archie, I really feel sorry for what you have to endure.

George, if my concept of what was or had transpired regarding the clutch in question, my sincere apologies to you.

On another note, Robin is and may have also allowed the Fiero Shop to now possibly be inadvertently drug through the quagmire, making the Fiero Shop subsequently look bad and its reputation subsequently tarnished. Especially if there had been any promotion of their product that the Fiero Shop may have believed in now and/or at one time.

This could be a future problem to the Fiero community in general and those vendors trying to assist the masses by providing quality products.

Archie, George, Tgowens(Robin if he is even online) I will sign off wishing you all well and hope that those of you dealing with ROBIN do not come to this unfortuante problem as Archie may has had.

Fiero Shop, if Robin's company is a minor vendor, I would suggest dropping them, as right now I have made a personal decision (not as a direct result of these threads) not to purchase parts from you if I may need them in the future if there is a good chance that such a vendor themselves are not willing to back their product and make the necessary amends to their consumers.

I was just thinking after my last response regarding the conference call, 3 calls in 17 days???? Doesn't seem like Robin is very motivated himself to get this resolved. Those that are interested will continousely call until that individual is reached. I know I would and have.

quote Originally posted by JSocha: I was just thinking after my last response regarding the conference call, 3 calls in 17 days???? Doesn't seem like Robin is very motivated himself to get this resolved. Those that are interested will continousely call until that individual is reached. I know I would and have.

Another bit of info I heard was that Robin was either not paid for the clutch for a very long time (6 months?) or not at all. That could cause a lack of motivation.

A customer is a customer is a customer. Even if that customer happens to have taken a while to pay. He still put his money down and deserves what he was promised, especially when they contacted him to try to get someone of Archie's stature to give their product the thumbs up.

------------------

Tennessee Fiero Owners

Very true. even if it took a while to pay, the fact is that money was given in exchange for parts, which failed for one reason or another.
I second Fierobear! Archie! Post a copy of your invoice so that we know who's in the right!

quote Originally posted by fierobear: My understanding is that the clutch went straight from the manufacturer (Robin) to Archie. Robin sold the clutch direct to Archie. Why would George have to refund money for a clutch he didn't sell? If Archie bought the clutch from George, OK, but that's not how I understand it.

From what I've read from all the other threads, It was basically George was the "Salesman" of the clutch. He is the one that originally pitched the idea of using the clutch with V-8 cars. In one of George's previous posts on the clutch he states:

...Made for him and for the Fiero Shop for use in V-8 Fiero's.

See thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20001206-1-002192.html

I think that the fact George was the salesman in the transaction is how he got involved. From what I read he convinced Archie to try the clutch. As for Robin, I don't know why he would be unwilling to resolve this. George stated he talked to Robin and was told to stay out of it. Sounds like Robin tried to make a product and it didn't pass real world testing.

With all the "bad press" the Fiero Shop is getting, You would think that the conference call would be worth the reputation of the shop.

I guess my view is George acted as an "agent" for Robin to market the clutches.
George advertised them and promoted them as being made for him and for his shop.
It's sort of like an internet version of the door-to-door salesmen. They peddle the product and you give your money to the company that makes the product and sends it to you. So why doesn't the salesman get included when the product fails? Wouldn't the salesman want to aid in settling the differences so his reputation doesn't suffer?

BTW ~ One last question, If George promoted the clutch (see past threads) and stated they were made for him and for his shop, Why did when someone who wanted to buy one be referred directly to the manufacturer?

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 07-08-2001).]

I was going to stay out of this thread from thereon in (Last post), but like a black hole, it just pulls me in.

Robin is obviously the end culprit to this problem not being resolved. The Fiero Shop, either had a direct and/or indirect part possibly in the sale of this clutch to Archie.

The Fiero Shop will have to determine what side of the fence they may have fallen on to be involved as claimed by Archie and make the decision on the action they may have to take in order to get Robin to comply so that they themselves do not get the bad rap as they have been getting here. Again, perhaps because of a direct or indirect culmination of getting Archie to go with Robin.

Lets face it, The Fiero Shop certainly has been drug through the mud here and through other posts. They themselves will need to determine what they may need to do to bring themselves to the forsight if needed of getting their reputation back on track if it has been damaged.

Sometimes, a little customer service and/or assistance from the sidelines may be all that it may take, especially if they deal with a particular vendor more then someone else does on a personal level.

For instance, we don't sell grain tarps to our customers that often, but sometimes do as a package deal. However, we will either direct them to one of our vendors that does handle it or get the vendor in contact with the customer and sell it directly.

Back in the late 80's, we had the vendor contact a customer (who we hardly did business with as he wasn't interested in our product) direct as we knew of the product he was looking for and felt the direct contact would be better and possibly could end up being a dedicated customer to our vendor. The individual subsequently had problems with the tarp, tried on many occassions to get it rectified and that didn't work.

They subsequently came back to us and tried to put it all on our shoulders that we recommended them. At first our salesman was resistant saying he only got them hooked up directly but had nothing to do with the sale.

The customer wasn't getting any results by contacting the vendor. Finally, our salesman took it upon himself, called the vendor directly, talked to the salesman. Thought it was resolved. Wasn't. Next call...straight to the CEO of the company. RESOLVED.

The customer our salesman assisted, that our salesman couldn't get to handle our product to begin with, is now one of our biggest and most dedicated customers.

Why?

Because our salesman, although it wasn't his responsibility overall, took the time because he had dealt with the vendor on many occassions before and had the repoir and subsequently had the clout that the customer needed and didn't have to get it resolved.

Our salesman didn't "have" to do it and was not "obligated" to do it. However, that side assistance went along way thereafter, not only for us, but our vendor as well as that customer now is a dedicated distributor of their other products, because our salesman went straight to the top for him and the vendor got to understand how much this customer could benefit them.

If Robin is looking for a future distibutor and customer to their product, I think he just lost a good leed, in my opinion.

Archie and George I feel are well respected within the Fiero community. Both are going to get tarnished from time to time. It is the better business minded person that knows what actions need to be taken to keep the level of being drug through the mud and reputation tarnished that will make them shine in the end and be the light needed to the rest.

It's a stupid clutch life goes on!,so you got a raw deal! we all get them!, exept other's learn to live with it and not argue over senseless b\s!

------------------
red candy apple copper burgandy color,tan interior all options,american racing rims,Pioneer Cd Player,pioneer 120w speakers"in factory location",sony **** amp,and workin' on a girl to go with the package
www.geocities.com/fierose_1986/dts.html

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Robin. Archie, do you have a receipt or invoice? If so, scan it and post it. Whoever's company name is on the receipt, they're the guy you gotta deal with. Whaddya say?

Hey, Archie, it's been 3 days. Still waiting for that receipt...

Hey, Archie, 9 days...still waiting for that receipt.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Hey, Archie, 9 days...still waiting for that receipt.

Maybe you should get a life little bear. I've been told to drop the thread. All my stuff and evidence has been turned over to the BBB and my lawyer.

Archie

MUST..KILL..GROUND..UNDER..WHICH..DEAD..HORSE..DIED!

I think the moderator should lock this thread out. The issue is getting rather played out. Kinda like the FieroLisa thread in the O/T section.

S2GT

quote Originally posted by Archie: Maybe you should get a life little bear. I've been told to drop the thread. All my stuff and evidence has been turned over to the BBB and my lawyer. Archie

I have a life. I was engaging in ironic humor. I guess some people just don't get it.

There is a FieroLisa thread in the O/T? Hmm, I've never seen that before. Is it any good?

quote Originally posted by fierobear: I was engaging in ironic humor.

I'll give you a little ironic humor. I find it ironic that you even have the nerve to get involved in this thread. I was keeping you out of it so far. (I gave your name to the BBB but no one else)

Why aren't you telling everyone just exactly what happened the day George closed the deal by selling me that clutch.

The one great thing about having an 800 number is that the bills itemize all phone calls incoming and outgoing with time, date, phone number etc. George & I closed the deal on the Clutch in a phone call he made to me in the late afternoon on 1-20-00. You posted the following message to Fiero-list the next morning 1-21-00 at 7:39 your time:

Subj: re: (Fiero) What's the best clutch for a V6 w/Getrag?
Date: 1/21/00 9:39:24 AM Central Standard Time
From: exposure@ix.netcom.com (John Szpara) To: fiero-list@fiero.org

I was told that V8 Archie plans to start using the Fiero Shop clutch in
his V8 swaps......
--
John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 85GT, 86 Coupe, 87GT, 88 Formula, 88 Coupe, 88GT

Now John, where did you get that information so quickly????

Did Robin (the clutch guy) come over to your place and tell you about it overnight? OR Did George walk out of the office at the shop after closing the deal and start bragging about it and how he had made "The Deal" with me?

Hmmmm

Now, before you answer that question, let me ask you one more....

Later that afternoon, when I saw your post, that I quoted above, I immediately called George to straighten him/you out. He said he would take care of it.

Only minutes later you posted the following message to the Fiero-list:

Subject:
What's the best clutch for a V6 w/Getrag? CORRECTION
Date:
Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:54:32 -0800
From:
John Szpara <exposure@ix.netcom.com>
To:
fiero-list@fiero.org, george@fieroshop.net, archie@v8archie.com

> I was told that V8 Archie plans to start using the Fiero Shop clutch in
> his V8 swaps.
>

CORRECTION: I misunderstood what I was told. He plans to *try* one in a
hot V8. He *might* use them.

I'm looking forward to hearing the results. If they're good in a V8,
then we'll *know* they're tough!

--
John Szpara
Affordable Satellite
Fiero Owner 85GT, 86 Coupe, 87GT, 88 Formula, 88 Coupe, 88GT

I find it "Ironic" that in this 2nd post you "c.c." copies to me and George.

Now, if Robin made the deal, why didn't you C.C. a copy to him?

You've seen fit to post to this thread several times, but you never mentioned your involvement, or did you just forget.

BTW, be real careful with your answers, I have a couple of other EMails from you in my mail folders. Make sure your answers don't conflict with them.....

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: I'll give you a little ironic humor. I find it ironic that you even have the nerve to get involved in this thread. I was keeping you out of it so far. (I gave your name to the BBB but no one else)

Gave my name to the BBB? Really? With what complaint? I don't recall installing a satellite dish for you. I didn't sell you a clutch. I wonder what the BBB would say about filing a false complaint.

Want to get personal? Fine. I've seen one of your hatchet-job V8 installs. Your customer was not happy. If I installed satellite dishes like that, I'd be working at Home Depot.

quote Why aren't you telling everyone just exactly what happened the day George closed the deal by selling me that clutch. The one great thing about having an 800 number is that the bills itemize all phone calls incoming and outgoing with time, date, phone number etc. George & I closed the deal on the Clutch in a phone call he made to me in the late afternoon on 1-20-00. You posted the following message to Fiero-list the next morning 1-21-00 at 7:39 your time: Subj: re: (Fiero) What's the best clutch for a V6 w/Getrag? Date: 1/21/00 9:39:24 AM Central Standard Time From: exposure@ix.netcom.com (John Szpara) To: fiero-list@fiero.org I was told that V8 Archie plans to start using the Fiero Shop clutch in his V8 swaps...... -- John Szpara Affordable Satellite Fiero Owner 85GT, 86 Coupe, 87GT, 88 Formula, 88 Coupe, 88GT

Yep, those are my words. Notice what I said. I did NOT say "George sold Archie a clutch." I DID say "plans to start using". Big difference. Can't see it? Bummer. Read it again, reaaaaly sloooowly.

Should I type slower so you can read it correctly?

All I was told was that you planned to start using them. I was not told you bought one, two, ten or whatever.

quote Now John, where did you get that information so quickly???? Did Robin (the clutch guy) come over to your place and tell you about it overnight? OR Did George walk out of the office at the shop after closing the deal and start bragging about it and how he had made "The Deal" with me? Hmmmm Now, before you answer that question, let me ask you one more....

Yes sir.

quote Later that afternoon, when I saw your post, that I quoted above, I immediately called George to straighten him/you out. He said he would take care of it. Only minutes later you posted the following message to the Fiero-list: Subject: What's the best clutch for a V6 w/Getrag? CORRECTION Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:54:32 -0800 From: John Szpara <exposure@ix.netcom.com> To: fiero-list@fiero.org, george@fieroshop.net, archie@v8archie.com > I was told that V8 Archie plans to start using the Fiero Shop clutch in > his V8 swaps. > CORRECTION: I misunderstood what I was told. He plans to *try* one in a hot V8. He *might* use them. I'm looking forward to hearing the results. If they're good in a V8, then we'll *know* they're tough! -- John Szpara Affordable Satellite Fiero Owner 85GT, 86 Coupe, 87GT, 88 Formula, 88 Coupe, 88GT I find it "Ironic" that in this 2nd post you "c.c." copies to me and George.

There is no irony in it at all. In the first email, I spoke out of turn. In the second email, I tried to make amends with a retraction. A mistake followed by a correction. I cc'ed both of you to show that I tried to set the record straight, and show contrition (apology).

At least when I'm wrong, I'm willing to admit it and try to make it right.

quote Now, if Robin made the deal, why didn't you C.C. a copy to him?

At that point, no clutch had been sold (to the best of my knowledge), there was only the intention to use them in V8's.

I don't know if Robin has an email address. If so, I don't have it.

quote You've seen fit to post to this thread several times, but you never mentioned your involvement, or did you just forget.

Nope, I didn't forget. When I was told, I was standing in George's living room, at his old shop in Hayward.

My involvement was to introduce George to Robin. I did some legwork in the research for the V6 clutch.

quote BTW, be real careful with your answers, I have a couple of other EMails from you in my mail folders. Make sure your answers don't conflict with them..... Archie

Oh yes sir, right away sir. Are you V8 Archie, or the ****ing CIA?

Don't be a prick, Archie. The emails you're quoting from me have nothing to do with who you paid for one damn clutch. Post a receipt from whoever sold you that one clutch or shut the **** up.

Let me put this in simple terms. If you see a Safeway ad for a gallon of milk, and you buy the milk from Safeway, and it's sour, you take it back to Safeway for a refund.

If you see the ad from Safeway, and buy the milk from the dairy, do you still ask Safeway for the refund? Does it matter who advertized it? Ask for your refund from the place you paid. If the receipt says "Fiero Shop", and George signed it, I'll publicly apologize to you. If not, I'll tell George off personally. How does that sound?

I'm only interested in facts. Show me the damn receipt.

Oh, and by the way. If you're going to try to use my words against me, you should read them carefully first.

For the love of god bear!!!! Give it a rest. I tried to avoid this topic but it sucked me in.. Archie bought the damn clutch that The Fiero Shop said THEY were selling (see the below post). ITS THERE CLUTCH!! Now is seems that they are pissed off that a person as well known as Archie says that there clutch doesn't work in the V8. It looks to me that now that its been proven NOT to work, they don't want to admit that there was no real testing before selling it. I don't understand why they wont resolve this matter. I know of several forum members that wont do business with them because of this. As for Archie doing sh!tty V8 swaps.... Why don't you go to his shop and check it out for your self before you start spewing lies. I've been to many shows that Archie's creations have attended. I've NEVER seen a crappie broken down one there so guess he's doing something right.

---------------------------------------------

Santa Cruzer:

quote Originally posted by Santa Cruzer: It's a stupid clutch life goes on!,so you got a raw deal! we all get them!, exept other's learn to live with it and not argue over senseless b\s!

Oh yea.... Lets just let everyone that stiffs people get away with it. You shoud read the posts before you post.

quote Originally posted by fieroshop: First off, this clutch is a racing style clutch that is used on performance cars. So this shape is nothing new to those in the know. What we have done is incorporate the knowledge that there is and designed this clutch specifically for the V8 Fiero. This clutch has aprox. 2400 lbs of clamp load just like our clutch that we now produce but with the ability to withstand up to aprox. 450 hp. Where can you get this clutch you ask, well thru me since this is built specially for the Fiero Shop. Also if you notice that this clutch has six pins holding the plates that hold the springs together. A stock clutch normally has three pins while our stock kevlar has four pins and our new kevlar clutch has six pins. This disk is a custom disc which is not found on the average parts store nor can anybody get one of these designs until now. The reason a person can get one now thru me is that it is built for me and the Fiero. Also this clutch can be used in the stock Fiero.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20001206-1-002192.html

[This message has been edited by Haze_Performance (edited 07-19-2001).]

Carl,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Haze_Performance:
I don't understand why they wont resolve this matter. I know of several forum members that wont do business with them because of this.

Carl, I was not going to get in this again but it is really very simple.........based on what you said it seems that there were probably many things said in the beginning by Fiero Shop about the Kevlar clutch.....I do know that there are different versions of that clutch for different applications.......but.....all of that aside as well as the "he said and did this and he said and did that"...........Archie can post a picture of a burned clutch, he can post a picture of his brake upgrade.........but, he cannot post a picture of a receipt......several people here have asked for that and I think it's a reasonable request and, it could certainly put a stop to this once and for all.........but, for some reason, Archie does not post a photo of his receipt for the clutch.........

Now, as for me, I think that if it would put an end to doubt and an end to all of this mud-slinging it would be a simple task to do........maybe I am wrong and it's more complicated than I think it is......the truth of the matter is, all of the "several forum members that wont do business with them because of this" don't know who Archie bought the clutch from either........so, that seems to be a decision made on speculation and conjecture rather than fact.......

Like I said, Archie could make this simple and post a photo of his receipt, why doesn't he?

quote Originally posted by Haze_Performance: I don't understand why they wont resolve this matter. I know of several forum members that wont do business with them because of this.

Terry... I just want to say that, I'm not trying to bad mouth you in any way. I'm just saying that I know of quite a few local club & forum members, that personally told me that they wont do business with The Fiero Shop because of there business practices. Not just because of the Archie clutch problem, but also the way that all the bickering goes on in a public forum.

quote Originally posted by tgowens: Archie could make this simple and post a photo of his receipt, why doesn't he?

Because I have not been able to find it yet, like it's been 18 months.

No matter what the invoice says, I've proven who advertized, Guaranteed & sold the clutch.

Let me put this in simple terms. If you buy a gallon of milk from Safeway, and it's sour, you grab the receipt out of the bag and take it back to Safeway for a refund. Imagine your surprize when you get back to Safeway and the Manager tells you that the reciept, the kid put in your bag, is from "Joe Blow's Dairy". He goes on to say that Safeway has been selling bad milk for months and hasn't had to give a refund yet.

Now, let's say you buy a clutch from someone relying on his word and promises. A couple months later you receive a clutch that appears to be what you had ordered. Let's say there is an Invoice in the box from "Joe Blow's Dairy" that doesn't match the company name that you thought you were buying from. Then let's say you hold off for a couple of months not paying the bill..... you make a few calls to the seller asking him why you got a bill from the wrong company and what you should do. He finally tells you, "We had it dropped shipped to you, go ahead and pay my supplier"

With my shipments to my customers, I think I should send out receipts from "Joe Blow's Dairy". Then I won't have to honor my promises or Guarantees.

John Szpara, you miss the whole point. The things you've just said and the things you said in those 2 posts PROVE THAT GEORGE (not Robin) MADE THE SALE TO ME. That is what is important here.

It's important who made the promises, the Guarantees, the Warrantees & THE SALE. It's not important who's Receipt was thrown in the box.

The BBB has your name because you are a witness.

Now if you would just answer one question that you avoided earlier.

Did Robin (the clutch guy) come over to your place and tell you about it overnight? OR Did George walk out of the office at the shop after closing the deal and start bragging about it and how he had made "The Deal" with me?

Now, I think most everyone is getting tired of this thread and would like it to die. If you would answer that one question it can die in peace. Over the years, I've been screwed out of a lot more money that this deal amounts to. In fact I've been bent over real bad a few times. At least I have a throphy for my wall from this screwing. This thread doesn't continue for the money, it continues because of the LIES.

Archie

I am tired of this BS.
1: Archie, if my name shows up on the receipt then I will re-emburse thre times what you paid for it.
2: If it shows somebodies elses name then you must deal with them and get off your lazy a** and call them and deal with them like a man instead of a w****
3: As for the rest of you that think I have bad business dealings then you don't know a thing about me. What I sell I back up and warranty. But if you did not buy from me then I wouild be a stupid idiot to give your money back for something that I did not get.
(If you want to talk to me then call me at my toll free number which has changed. it is now 866-FIEROGT.
I do know that Archie will not call Robin and all he is doing is p******* into the wind and crying like a baby, but is too lazy to pick up the phone and call Robin.
Get a life Archie, act like a man and call Robin.

------------------

quote Originally posted by Haze_Performance: For the love of god bear!!!! Give it a rest. I tried to avoid this topic but it sucked me in.. Archie bought the damn clutch

The issue is not yet settled.

If you're tired of reading it, why continue?

quote that The Fiero Shop said THEY were selling (see the below post). ITS THERE CLUTCH!! Now is seems that they are pissed off that a person as well known as Archie says that there clutch doesn't work in the V8. It looks to me that now that its been proven NOT to work, they don't want to admit that there was no real testing before selling it. I don't understand why they wont resolve this matter. I know of several forum members that wont do business with them because of this. As for Archie doing sh!tty V8 swaps.... Why don't you go to his shop and check it out for your self before you start spewing lies. I've been to many shows that Archie's creations have attended. I've NEVER seen a crappie broken down one there so guess he's doing something right.

I never said "crappie (sic), broken down." I said "hatchet job." The person I know thought it looked sloppy and thrown together.

Everyone seems to be missing the point. Who did Archie PAY for *this* particular clutch?

Below is the Word for Word post by the Fiero Shop taken from Histhread.

First off, this clutch is a racing style clutch that is used on performance cars. So this shape is nothing new to those in the know. What we have done is incorporate the knowledge that there is and designed this clutch specifically for the V8 Fiero. This clutch has aprox. 2400 lbs of clamp load just like our clutch that we now produce but with the ability to withstand up to aprox. 450 hp. Where can you get this clutch you ask, well thru me since this is built specially for the Fiero Shop.
Also if you notice that this clutch has six pins holding the plates that hold the springs together. A stock clutch normally has three pins while our stock kevlar has four pins and our new kevlar clutch has six pins. This disk is a custom disc which is not found on the average parts store nor can anybody get one of these designs until now. The reason a person can get one now thru me is that it is built for me and the Fiero. Also this clutch can be used in the stock Fiero.

Like I said before, Sounds like George was the "door-to-door salesman" for the clutch. Once Archie agreed to buy the Advertised clutch, (which was peddled by George to Archie over the phone on 1-20-00) George then told Robin and Robin sent the clutch to Archie and Robin billed Archie for the clutch. It is obvious that Archie was billed for the clutch after it was shipped to him from Robin's place.

The reason many others have stated they wouldn't buy anything from the Fiero Shop is they feel Geroge did the sales pitch and then had Robin do the transaction. Since George did the selling he should show some backbone and assist the other parties involved in settling the dispute. Instead he backs out of it. Now we, the consumers watching these threads, see this and feel that George isn't standing by his words of the Original thread. That alone causes folks to not trust George's words and being in a specialty market and having the limited consumers not trusting your posted words isn't going to help your business.
I know there are others here who have dealt with George over the years and have built up a trust in him, but many here don't have the years of trust built up like George's local customers. When looking for a reliable source of parts or service these message forums are the consumers best tool.
If us as consumers cannot trust what a business has posted, Then we are less likely to use that business for anything.

Many times I've seen other customers, friends of George and George post things like "You don't know him/me" "you haven't done business with him/me" then they berate the poster for it. I am not a business major but if you berate potential customers BEFORE they do business with you, that can't be good. Not standing behind your posted word is another.

If any of the above isn't true, or other forum members do not agree with the previous paragraph, then let me know.

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Got Emblems?

This just in:

Archie says he doesn't buy clutches that need to be broken in. My understanding is that Archie uses Centerforce clutches. Here is a cut-and-paste from their website FAQ:

DO CENTERFORCE CLUTCHES REQUIRE A BREAK IN PERIOD?

YES. IT IS RECOMMENDED TO PROPERLY SEAT IN THE NEW PRESSURE
PLATE & DISC ASSEMBLY TO ASSURE GOOD CLUTCH PERFORMANCE.
CENTERFORCE RECOMMENDS 450-500 MILES OF IN TOWN STOP AND GO
TYPE OF EASY DRIVING BEFORE APPLYING FULL POWER. IF YOUR
DRIVING CONSISTS OF MAINLY HIGHWAY TYPE USE, THE BREAK IN
PERIOD SHOULD BE LONGER THAN THE 450-500 MILES. IF THE BREAK IN
PERIOD IS NOT PROPERLY FOLLOWED, CLUTCH LIFE AND PERFORMANCE
CAN BE SACRIFICED.

URL: http://cyber.virtualrep.com/centerforce/faqsearchresults.tpl#10000014

quote Originally posted by fierobear: CENTERFORCE RECOMMENDS 450-500 MILES OF IN TOWN STOP AND GO TYPE OF EASY DRIVING BEFORE APPLYING FULL POWER.

It says EASY Driving. This is normal for any clutch not just Centerforce. Per Archie's original post in the Clutch thread, He could't even drive down the street to put gas in the car. It started slipping while pulling out of his parking lot!! I've seen Archie's parking lot and it is gravel and usually there are customer cars parked outside the doors. So I don't think Archie was doing burn-outs on gravel and risk shooting stones at customer cars.

At least the centerforce clutch you can drive 450-500 miles!

uuummmm here's a reason why you give it a rest...
1] You've both said the same thing over and over again for 4 pages of posts.
2] Your wasting cliffs band width

It's obvious that this can not get solved here. You are at a point where you need to forget about it and just call it a learning experience or get the help of legal counsel. This kinda of long winded crap is exactly why cliff is getting ready to end this fine forum.
This is not a flame just an outside observor who has read this whole thread from the begining and pointing out some honest facts.

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OK, I have some more information now. Up until now, I relied on George's account of the clutch deal. This morning, I called Robin and asked for his perspective.

- George got Robin and Archie in touch regarding development of the V8 clutch. As Robin always does with customers, he asked for the specifications (engine type, car, type of driving). He then built a clutch based on those parameters.

- He asked if Archie wanted a clutch that was ready to go or needed braking in. Archie indicated 'break in.' Archie says he never puts in clutch's that need braking in, but I don't know what he does with the Centerforce types that *all* need breaking in (not my words, just look at the Centerforce website FAQ).

- It took Archie a year and a half to put the clutch in.

- It took a long time for Robin to get paid.

- This was the first, prototype Fiero/V8 clutch. It was not taken off the shelf from the Fiero Shop. It was for development and testing. It was based on other V8 clutches that Robin has built.

- Archie dealt with Robin directly. Archie paid Robin. George never saw a dime of the money. Again, this was a prototype. Why should George refund money he did not receive on a prototype clutch he wasn't selling (either to Archie or the general public) at the time?

If you choose not to believe George, fine. This information was straight from Robin. He's been in the clutch business for a long time. He knows what he's doing.

I checked the web site for the Silicon Valley BBB, and there are no complaints on record for Robin's company.

My 2 cents:

I'm a computer contractor. We sell and service many brands of equipment. If you buy an IBM PC from me and it breaks, it's IBM who covers the warranty, not me.

Now, who do you call? ME. Because I sold you the stuff and service it. I'll get the warranty replacement from IBM and take care of it for you, becaue you're my customer.

Call me crazy, but that's my idea of good business.

The circumstances here are clearly unique, but come on, now. Both Robin and George know they have an upset customer, and neither of them is doing anything to fix it. If I know a customer is upset with my products or service, I don't sit and wait for them to call, I'll do what I can to make them happy.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: The circumstances here are clearly unique, but come on, now. Both Robin and George know they have an upset customer, and neither of them is doing anything to fix it. If I know a customer is upset with my products or service, I don't sit and wait for them to call, I'll do what I can to make them happy.

One problem here is that George and Archie are 2 of the most subborn S.O.B's I've met.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: One problem here is that George and Archie are 2 of the most subborn S.O.B's I've met.

And they have every right to be stubborn. Freedom and all that. But being a stubborn S.O.B. isn't good for business. Is that the attitude you want from someone you're doing business with? Not me.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And they have every right to be stubborn. Freedom and all that. But being a stubborn S.O.B. isn't good for business. Is that the attitude you want from someone you're doing business with? Not me.

There is a lot of subborness out there. In this case, their subborn attitude will keep this from being resolved.

Hey guys, I have talked to Robin several times on behalf of Archie and have asked for this problem to be resolved. I am told that they have called and no answer and they have left messages.
I can't understand why Archie does not call them himself.
I know Robin is upset at ARchie for not heeding instructions and the worst part of it is that it took Archie a long time to pay for it. So Robin is pissed, hence he called a few times and I feel it is Archie turn to call him, I have done what I could and it seems that it is out of my hands now. I will not re-emburse for something that I did not get paid for.
There is a lot more to this then you guys can see and for this reason you feel trhat I have done nothing. Well when I sell something from my shop I take care of it, but since I did not sell this clutch all I can do is call Robin, (which I did several times) and ask Robin to call Archie. Now I am asking Archie to call Robin and talk to him personnally. But Archie is stubborn and wants me to do his work, I am not in the position to do that.

ARCHIE CALL ROBIN UNLESS YOU HAVE A BROKEN FINGER THEN ASK SOMEBODY ELSE TO DIAL THE PHONE FOR YOU.

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The controversy continues......

I wanted to get a book out of the library a few days ago, but changed my mind. I thought 'who needs a book when you've got so much good reading on PFF'?
While, to the untrained eye, this thread may sound like bickering, words cannot describe how much more interesting it is than the FieroLisa thread (which I stopped reading a looooooong time ago).
Gone are the days when the good guys wore white and bad guys wore black. Everyone in this thread seems rather gray. Now I can't wait for how this is going to end. Will this excitement ever stop??!! Come to think of it, this is better than a book. This is like a soap opera that inspires imagination. I can place whatever face I want on each of the characters and imagine them in the different situations (vains about to pop in their foreheads, sweat dripping on their keyboards while they type, drinking themselves to sleep, etc.). Every morning I wake up wondering what will happen in 'The Apology' today (and you have to admit, it does sound like a good title for a soap opera). Don't stop now, guys! The readers need more!!!

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George, you can tell your stories until your lips turn blue and it's still a load or Cra%.

I know what happened in this transaction & You know what happened in this transaction. You just refuse to tell the truth about it, Instead you tell more stories.

It's like 2 guys in a room together. One of them "breaks wind". They look at each other, but BOTH OF THEM KNOW WHO DID IT.

Archie