I need to apologize to those that were insulted from my post on the technical side in answer to V-8 Archie. Let me start by clarifying myself. Everything that we at the Fiero Shop sell and ship is guaranteed. If I or anyone in my shop sell you something we will back it up. I have read that some would not buy from us for the reason that they think that I sold a clutch to Archie and would not stand by it. That is the wrong summation to make as they have never dealt with me and or anyone else at my shop. I did not sell the clutch to Archie, as he is a vendor, I had Robin talk to him and build him a clutch per his specks. It took Archie over a year to install the clutch and over six months to pay for it. This I was told by Robin who built, sold, collected the money and who dealt directly with Archie. I was also told that the last conversation he had with Archie that he told Archie to leave me out of the picture as I had nothing to do with the sale of the clutch with the exception of getting them together. I also had words with DXR DAD and made a statement that any further writing from him about the shop will result in a court battle for slander, as I have several statements in writing from several people in the bay area and out of statements he has told them about me and these people know that those statements are false. Bill Cady has a long history in the Bay Area of trying to start and continue any and all efforts to degrade me and my shop. As far as I know or can remember I have done nothing to start this war with him but have tried to help him when he needed parts. If he ever needs parts that I have in stock or advice about his Fiero I would treat him the same as I treat any other customer, with respect and dignity. I would like this war to stop. Some of you have called me on my toll free number and have asked for advice and have received it at no cost to you and I will continue to do this. I try not to post on the technical side for reasons of my own, but will answer your questions on the phone and anybody can call me on my toll free number. There was a post also from Toddster that he would not allow me to install or do any work on his Fiero because I do not have any licenses and no insurance. The truth is I do have them and have not talked to Todd close to a year and he has no idea of what I do or have. He also told me up front when we were friends that no matter how good a mechanic I was, he would not have me do any work as he does all his own repairs and also has a lift in his garage for this reason. Again I would treat him withe same as others with respect and help in in any way if I could. I hold no malice against anyone and would like to see this forum get along better with no one scamming anybody else. Let us all try to get together and before making statements about somebody or some shop we all need to get first hand information and not go by some person making flat out statements that they know nothing about. That is the reason that I wrote on my last statement for people to butt out from items that they knew nothing about. Again I apologize to those that took offense from my statement. We at the shop are also getting ready to sell many new items that we are starting to manufacture and we will have a warranty for those items.
Originally posted by fieroshop: ...It took Archie over a year to install the clutch and over six months to pay for it.
It's good to see someone here apologizing for their part in what must have been a bad situation. I was gladly spared this, as I wasn't here yet.
The only thing I would say is that the info about Archie (or anyone else) could have been left out. It's none of my business how long it took him to install it or pay for it, if he in fact got a clutch from you guys.
Other than that, I for one appreciate your apology, and hope everything goes better for everyone.
------------------ Looking for a white '88 GT 5 sp... ...Could it be...Found? Stay tuned!
Originally posted by TRiAD: The only thing I would say is that the info about Archie (or anyone else) could have been left out.
This is called "saving face." They know that this incident has given them a bad image thus they feel the need to make themselves look better by degrading someone else. The fact of the matter is that this makes them look even worse. I for one feel that they should take it upon themselves to help Archie make right of the situation since they were involved in relations between this Robin person and Archie (if that is in fact what happened). I would call it good business practices for this would be the type of business I would want to deal with.
I would also like to just state that I believe that those stating that they wouldn't buy from the fiero shop were also stating that they wouldn't buy from them in fear that they would also be treated like Archie. I feel it is irevelant who the product actually comes from but everyone involved (even in the slightest) should do what is possible to make things right.
Ok George, I don't know you; I don't know Archie. I wouldn't hesitate to buy anything from either one of you guys because, in the Time I have been here, you both have had great credibility. Of course in the area of buisness you can't please everyone. As for your gesture of an appology, that's top notch. I think that there have been alot of things said in anger and haste that would have probably been best unsaid. When you have people in completely different geographical areas doing buisness, it's hard to second guess what trials and tribulations each one is going through. That's where timelines collapse and feelings get scathed. You made a commendable gesture in your appology and it would be great to see others offer theirs in return. As for those on the Forum that are new, to this and other arguments, take your time before you jump in and accuse others of trying to further any scandal. You have to take the time to get to know the people here. Please don't just jump in to be an antagonist. These are real people with real problems, you all seem to just want to fuel the fire for entertainment purposes. Archie, George and Bill are all grown men and will (or not) work out there differences in their own time and manner. It's not our place to intercede or interfere. Public oppologies here are common to make right those wrongs that were also made in public. George is trying to do a good thing, so let it happen.
Peace, B2 OUT!
------------------ Knowledge is POWER! That is why the ignorant remain Weak!
Originally posted by BAM-BAM: As for those on the Forum that are new, to this and other arguments, take your time before you jump in and accuse others of trying to further any scandal. You have to take the time to get to know the people here. Please don't just jump in to be an antagonist. These are real people with real problems, you all seem to just want to fuel the fire for entertainment purposes
If you are refeering to me my intensions are not for "entertainment", to "further" the "scandal" or "antagonistic." Also I am not "new, to this and other arguments." Arguments like this take place everyday all around the world. I am sorry if you took offense to me accusing the fiero shop of "saving face." I feel as if it is perfectly revelent for me to say what I did for I am a consumer and part of the fiero shops market. I would think that the fiero shop would like to know how their actions affect their image. Yes their problems will get solved somehow however, they chose to bring it to the forum and be subject to the opinions of those who are new and those who are not.
Ohh and as far as getting to know people, why don't you get to know me instead of doing the exact same things that you accuse others of doing.
I was not intending to put people down nor to start another scam. I was accused of a few things and never answered them. All I tried to do just now was to point out some things that I was accused of and tried to let others know what my position is. Jefrysuko and Triad. Again you didn't get the message. You were not there and do not know if Archie even spoke to me. Well Archie did and the first thing I did was to call Robin and had Robin call Archie so that the differences would be settled. I feel I did what I could and I for one have no malice against anyone. Again, before anybody puts their foot in their mouths, they should know the whole story, not just heresay Do you Jefrysuko and triad know the whole story and were you there when I recieved a call from Archie. No you were not, so it is better if you ddn't say things just for the sake of saying them. No pun intended but all I was doing waas putting out infomation on what has transpired on my side. Take what side you want but I am not interested in more scam or to explain myself to anybody else again.
Originally posted by fieroshop: All I tried to do just now was to point out some things that I was accused of and tried to let others know what my position is.
And all I tried to do was inform you of how your actions make you look to your consumers. As I stated before I thought you might like to know these things. It looks like I might have been wrong about this.
quote
Originally posted by fieroshop: You were not there and do not know if Archie even spoke to me.
In your very first post you said "I had Robin talk to him and build him a clutch per his specks." Why are you hung up about who spoke to who? I staited that you had something to do with Archie and his cluch based on your statements. Am I missing something here?
quote
Originally posted by fieroshop: I am not interested in more scam or to explain myself to anybody else again.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fieroshop: I was not intending to put people down nor to start another scam. Great. I was accused of a few things and never answered them. All I tried to do just now was to point out some things that I was accused of and tried to let others know what my position is. That's a good idea. Jefrysuko and Triad. Again you didn't get the message. You were not there and do not know if Archie even spoke to me. Uh, I had no comment about the original situation, and even said I was glad for not being involved. Thanks for making that point null. My statement was that if you want to apologize for something, do so, but don't try to explain why you weren't wrong in what you're apologizing for. It makes the apology, also null. I don't need to know the original situation to know that your apology sucked. Well Archie did and the first thing I did was to call Robin and had Robin call Archie so that the differences would be settled. OK? This wasn't the point. I feel I did what I could and I for one have no malice against anyone. Great. Again, before anybody puts their foot in their mouths, they should know the whole story, not just heresay. Do you Jefrysuko and triad know the whole story and were you there when I recieved a call from Archie. No you were not, so it is better if you ddn't say things just for the sake of saying them. You know what? Nevermind. All I said was that it was good you apologized, but that it looks bad when you slam someone in the middle of apologizing. It makes you look like a jerk, as does your attempt at slamming Jeff and I. As it stands, I'm new to the whole Fiero scene, and am not looking to make any enemies, but I will look out for fellow Fiero enthusiasts. One thing I do know now, is I would never do business with you. You're too interested in saving face to suck it up and apologize without explaining your side. Who cares. No pun intended but all I was doing waas putting out infomation on what has transpired on my side. Take what side you want but I am not interested in more scam or to explain myself to anybody else again. Great. No one asked you to explain anything, you did that on your own. It's called PRIDE, and you need to set that aside next time you attempt to apologize to someone. Sorry I was ever in this thread. See ya.
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11:13 AM
Jun 5th, 2001
stsmithgt Member
Posts: 1351 From: Fair Oaks, CA Registered: Aug 99
Woah. It's tuff running a business isn't it George? Those of you who haven't run your own business have little clue what you have to deal with. Good luck George, Terry and friends.
Todd (another Todd)
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09:43 AM
PFF
System Bot
CoolBlue87GT Member
Posts: 8519 From: Punta Gorda, Florida, USA Registered: Apr 2001
Originally posted by fieroshop: [B]I need to apologize B]
Okay, I think that's great, and I concider this subjet closed.
Haven't use your shop yet, But if needed, I know where to come. Thank you for providing parts & products so the whole Fiero world can keep our pride & joy's running.
Glad you were able to close with an apologize and I look forward to great things from EVERYONE.
Take Care.
[This message has been edited by CoolBlue87GT (edited 06-05-2001).]
Originally posted by stsmithgt: Woah. It's tuff running a business isn't it George? Those of you who haven't run your own business have little clue what you have to deal with. Good luck George, Terry and friends.
Todd (another Todd)
This is my last post in this thread. FYI, I ran my own tuning shop for 8 years.
No offense, just an FYI.
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12:05 PM
stsmithgt Member
Posts: 1351 From: Fair Oaks, CA Registered: Aug 99
let me get this straight...If you hook two people together for business purposes and theirs trouble now it's your responseability to make it right?? Thats crazy. It's obviouse by his apolagy that the fiero shop respects this board and it's members and wants to make sure that we don't look at him in a bad light because of situation out of his controll. This doesn't make me look down on the fiero shop. Actually I will definitly give him business because of this. Think about it guys if your business was fieros and your good name was being ran through the mud in front of a very large fiero loving audience....would you not be a little upset?
------------------ Hey Mr. Ricer come over here and tell me how your stickers make you faster.....
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08:22 PM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Originally posted by Archie: Just to keep the record straight.
#1, I do remember the conversations preceeding my agreeing to try one of these clutches.
#2, Your statement that I was told that this clutch would slip initially is crazy, WHY ON GOD'S EARTH would I buy & install a clutch that was designed to slip? As of right now I have 11 man hours invested in R&R on replacing this clutch, I'll have about 15 hours invested when it's back together. WHY would I put in a clutch that I knew was going to slip?
#3, Just to set the record straight... I purchased this clutch from YOU. YOU called me several times trying to get me to switch over to your clutches. YOU told me that this clutch was guaranteed to last twice the mileage of the clutch I've been using. NOTHING was said about some prototype clutch. And I never talked to Robbie about a clutch until after I had agreed with your pitch of some "Super Clutch".
#4, You guys told me that this clutch had been tested to 500 HP..... Now I'm told by Robbie today that "Test" was on some computer.
In summary, During our conversations, I was told the exact same thing about Guarantees that you are telling people on your web site right now. YOU made the sale agreement, YOU would not tell me the name of your manufacturer until AFTER I had agreed to try one. NO ONE ever told me that THIS CLUTCH was a prototype. Why would you need me to test a clutch that had already passed the 500 HP computer test.
[/B]
I am not taking sides. But those who have not read the other thread, would need to and then make their own decision as to who's right and who's wrong. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/009805.html
The other thread is biased against the Fiero Shop and this one is starting to get biased against Archie. My opinion of the entire issue isn't important to anyone but me. So I would suggest read both sides then form your own opinion and leave it at that.
Originally posted by stsmithgt: Those of you who haven't run your own business have little clue what you have to deal with.
Yeah demanding customers, it's a fact of life in the business world.
quote
Originally posted by firstfiero: let me get this straight...If you hook two people together for business purposes and theirs trouble now it's your responseability to make it right?
Yes I believe so. That is just my opinion and telling me that I am crazy isn't going to change my views. I am not saying that the fieroshop should refund any money or anything but they should serve as an impartial mediator to resolve the situation.
Now if in fact the fieroshop mislead Archie in any way or if they accepted any money from Archie then it is a completely different situation. I have not made any comments on this type of situation nor will you ever hear of any from me.
quote
Originally posted by firstfiero: Think about it guys if your business was fieros and your good name was being ran through the mud in front of a very large fiero loving audience....would you not be a little upset?
Yes I agree with you I would be very upset. I would hope that I would also be a big enough man to not do the same in return. That is the type of person I respect and will continue to do so.
Now listen everyone. Those are my opinions on the apology given by the fieroshop and the apology only. If it sounded like I was referring to any matter in the past it was not intended to. Yes I am aware of what has gone on in the past between Archie and the fieroshop. I have formed my opinion on that situation but feel if it is best left alone. Some of you may feel that my statements here indicate how I feel about the later situation. This is not the case.
Let my just state again that I feel as if the apology given by fieroshop was not "top notch." Some of you feel as if it was and are entitled to that opinion just as I am mine. That which I do feel is "top notch" would be the response by coolblue87GT, for he came on here without anything negative to say about anyone and was still able to express his opinion. I do apologize for not being able to do the same.
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02:31 AM
Jun 10th, 2001
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Boy George, you sure are a handful. You've totally ignored your responsibilities to stand behind your warrantees and guarantees for nearly 2 months now. As evidenced by the thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/009805.html THEN you decide to start this thread on the 1st day of my announced Vacation. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/007740.html . That way you could dominate this new thread by telling more of your "story" for a whole week without me being here to respond.
If this clutch had worked out, you'd be banging your chest big time. But since it didn't work at all, you keep trying to worm your way out from under your responsibilities. YOU are the one who claimed this clutch to be yours in YOUR OWN thread https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20001206-1-002192.html & your current statements just don't jive with other statements you've made.
Now Orief has already re-asserted my position by quoting from the thread you've been praying would go away. Now your position changes from day to day but mine remains the same.
Now you state that Robin told you that he had told me to leave you out of this whole thing. THAT'S another Lie!!! I've only talked to Robin once and that was on April 30, 2001. He asked me to EMail him some pics. (which I did) and that he would then get back to YOU on the subject.
As you know, I buy more than 80 clutches a year, and you kept calling me to get me to use your clutch. At that time it would not have made sense for you to give me your sources' (Robins) name etc. because that would have cut you out of the profits you would have made if I'd have bought 80 clutches a year from you. So your line about refering me directly to Robin from the start just doesn't make sense to anyone with half a brain.
You know, If Robin (or any other clutch manufacturer) would have cold called me, I would have never bought anything from him. The only reason I bought this clutch from you in the first place was that you were a fellow member of this Forum & I thought I could trust you for your word. As it turns out, THAT was a big mistake.... IMHO, your word has no value.
You state that people should not withhold business from a supplier unless they have been screwed themselves by that supplier. That's stupid, if people did that then you would have a hundred people with whom you were trying to worm out from under a warrantee or guarantee claim.
The only power a consumer has is the power of information. If a consumer fails to use that information to make an informed purchase then shame on him, he will get what he deserves. But YOU would prefer that a consumer only has the information that the SELLER wants him to have. SHAME on YOU.
You seem to be quite worried about what DXR-DAD has to say..... you need to be worried about what YOU have to say. Right now DXR-DAD is the least of your worries.
I'm the guy you should be worried about.
Archie
[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 06-10-2001).]
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08:16 PM
Jun 11th, 2001
DXR_DAD Member
Posts: 2440 From: so. san francisco, ca Registered: Mar 99
Don't drag me into this George. I made simple statements of fact. Here it is again -
"The facts are:
1)George is an unqualified mechanic who has neither a mechanical engineeringdegree nor any GM/Ponitac approved mechanics training.
2)As of the publication of the newsletter he was uninsured, unlicensed, and justone step ahead of the Fire Marshall and the EPA.
3)For 6 months after George started his buisiness he called me up to 5 times a day to ask me to help him diagnose automotive promlems for a car he had. I never got paid for a minute of this free education by the way.
4) I witnessed at least a dozen examples of inattentiveness to installation or repair instructions, carelessness, and downright error in his personal performance which resulted in multiple destroyed cars. One client brought his car in for a simple clutch change and didn't get his car back for 6 months (Tony's white GT)."
If, since then, you have run out and got some insurance, a business license. then welcome to the world of law abiding citizens. But that does not change the facts of the past.
Yes, I have my own car lift. and yes I work on my own Fieros. But I told you I did all my own work to be polite. I then gave you STRONG advise to put oil pans under the hulks leaking oil in the yard, I advised you to get a REAL paint booth instead of an old tarp help up with sticks, and I advised you to stop hiring convicted felons as mechanics to save a few dollars and advised you to find a GM certified mechanic. You took none of this advise.
I just got tired of being polite, especially when you insisted on using the Fiero Club as a vehicle for building your business and took offense when we told you to back off. I got tired of being put in the awkward position of having you ask me to tell people that you were a good place to take their Fieros, putting my reputation as a degree qualified engineer on the line.
George, I said it before and I'll say it again: I deny nobody the right to make a living. But if you want my support, get some education (ANY EDUCATION!) as a mechanic/engineer. Or hire someone with education; Preferably GM training. Bring your shop up to, at the very least, legal standards for safety and environmental hazard containment.
We don't want apologies, we want progress. Fix the problems, THEN apologize.
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12:42 PM
PFF
System Bot
Jun 13th, 2001
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I'm sure he's not ignoring this thread archie,nooooo not the fiero shop. Probably waiting for someone like me to post in here, then..he'll change the subject to why am I posting on this thread cause its none of my damn bussiness. I'm sure the shop has good customer service 9 out of 10 sales, but this...this is not good customer service. Read the WHOLE story kids, cause archie's being screwed....
I'm a neutral party in all of this but it seems that it has gone way past George and Archie. And it has done so because George started this thread, in my opinion.
Now I have nothing against either of these guys and am not on one side or the other. I say this honestly because I don't know the full details of the dealing between the two men.
I have never had any dealings at all with George, and I have a great respect for Archie even though I have never bought anything from him. It is just from his knowledge and what he has done for the Fiero community.
I am only stating my opinion here... I think that the people on the board he would like to see a resolution to this SINCE it has been aired here. If it had not, we wouldn't know or care. Whoever is wrong here knows it and should make it right, one way or another. Not hide from it, nor hope that it goes away.
The one thing I do know is that we are taught growing up that if you are in business, the customer is always right. Even if that customer is a pain in the ass they have a right to be satisfied with the product that you sold them. If they are not, then you make it right for them in whatever way you need to do.
I hope you guys will work this out and let us know the end result...
Why should this be taken care of privetly? I for one dont like getting screwed.and whenit happens I use every tool that I can to get results.I thought it was a privelage for someone to go into bussiness.And as far as this george goes I am now thinking that this is not a isolated insodent I for one dont think I will do any type of buissness with him. Just imagine if home depot did this every time one of there vedors goofed up.I dont think that they would be very succesful.This george person surely could have turned this problem around long ago by good will on his part.But from what Ive read from both these parties and the proof I have seen here.I am all for putting places like that out of buissness.Peple should NEVER<EVER get screwd PERIOD!gosh this is unbelieveable what he is trying to get away with.Idont care what his cheerleaders think keep here in public till it is resolved.
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08:50 PM
JSocha Member
Posts: 3522 From: Felton, MN, USA Registered: Apr 2001
I'm looking here and noticing the business ettiquete that is transpiring.
Working for a successfull company of 34 years with our products known nationally if one of our customers, regardless of there size, has a problem that isn't being resolved over time, our Salesman and who ever else it takes are on the next flight down to meet with the individual and/or company "face to face" to resolve it, especially if correspondance and/or the use of phones is failing. This is to save business and let the customer know we stand behind our products. Because we realize, in the end, word of mouth can either make you and/or it can break you.
Just reading this thread and of course not "knowing" the whole story (sorry for buttin in), this is not in my opinion where this should have been discussed, and George should not have started this thread, because it seems Archie has made it apparent that he is in disbelief to what George is trying to do. So there is a definate problem to how this is being handled, not by one, but what I feel is both parties.
In business, especially the employees, they believe it is the owner or boss that pays their paycheck. When in fact, it is actually the customer that is paying their paychecks. Without "satisfied" customers to keep your business running, there can be no business.
I do not know how many times ARCHIE actually called you or if the pictures were actually sent, but it doesn't really matter. The point is, it seems like ARCHIE is to call you all the time. Your a business just like ARCHIE, you have a serious issue and satisfaction problem with ARCHIE that is getting way out of hand, either here or between you directly. Just an observation, telephone dials out as well. May be time you pick up the phone and get this resolved by calling ARCHIE so laundry such as this isn't being aired.
Not very professional IMO from a business standpoint. Again, word of mouth can either make you and/or break you. Its not doing much for you here that is for sure and could sway potential business in the future away from you.
If you can't resolve it by phone and realizing the distance, FIEROSHOP, you may just have to bite the bullet, get on a plane and do a "face to face" with your customer ARCHIE so that this does not happen in the future. The expense now could be future sales and "positive" referrals later. Just the cost of doing business.
Its not large customers with big orders that keep most business in business, its the small "mom & pop" sized shops. If a large customer with large sales per year goes under, you have in est thrown all your eggs in one basket and the rug will be pulled from under you because you have relied to heavy on pleasing the big boys on the block and ignoring the others that can get you through the worst of times.
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09:01 PM
Robert Member
Posts: 433 From: One gallon East of San Francisco Registered: May 99
Just heard about this tread and had to check it out. After reading it for a while, plus all the sub treads, I’m more confused than ever. So I thought I would drop a dime and see what George, (he has done thousands of dollars worth of work on my car, so I think I know him pretty well) thought about all this stuff. Turns out George has been in and out of the hospital (happens to us OLD Vets a lot, I was there last week myself) for the last few weeks, so he hasn’t been in the best of moods. I got a little of the story about Archie. George says Archie wanted to get one of the clutch’s the Fiero Shop had posted on the Forum. Archie wanted to deal directly with the manufacture of the clutch, so George hooked him up with this Robin person. As George tells me, Archie bought the clutch directly from Robin. I think that alone takes George out of the loop. George said to me that he thought Archie had been given the choice by Robin of a clutch that needed to broken in (i.e. will slip for a few hundred miles) or one that didn’t need any break in. Archie ordered the clutch that needed the break in. I think Archie’s clam against George needs to be supported by a picture/jpg of the receipt from The Fiero Shop for the clutch. George tells me he never sold Archie the clutch, so Archie has no receipt from him. I can tell you all from experience, George always gave me a full receipt for all the work/parts he sold me. I can easily scan any of the receipts I have from The Fiero Shop (pretty big stack, come to think of it).
Now as far as Tony’s car being in George’s shop for six months, for a clutch job, I have some first hand knowledge about that also. Tony’s car was on the rack almost the whole time my car was being worked on. My understanding is that Tony worked for George, and was working on his own car on his own time. His car got way more than just a clutch job. I can remember all the tires/breaks being off, getting replaced. I can remember George complaining to Tony that he needed the rack to work on other cars. I also remember that Tony was fired by George for over sanding the paint on my car so (Like my car has 9 coats of Yellow) many times. Seems Tony was not the body man he had told George he was.
This Todd guy I only know by way of the Golden Gate Fiero’s Club. I was a member 1999-2000. Went to one meeting, and got so turned off by all the arguing/backstabbing, I never went again. GGF still show’s me as a member, but I haven’t sent them any dues. Todd was given the responsibility of being the editor of the newsletter at one of the meetings. He then proceeded to produce the best-looking club newsletter (and I know, I am a printer by trade, and a past editor of my tennis clubs newsletters) I have ever seen (except I would have had a Fiero on the cover). Trouble was, the whole newsletter was a figment of Todd’s imagination. Kind of like “The Inquirer/Star”. He totally left out any mention of The Fiero Shop, even though George at the time was an active member of the club. I can remember reading the newsletter, and thinking, “What’s this, nothing about The Fiero Shop?” Not even a mention of when the next tech session would be. Now some of you may not understand the significance of this. George had single handily brought the Golden Gate Fiero’s Club from a few member to ? (But a lot) by opening his shop in our area and promoting the Golden Gate Fiero’s. After the membership had time to digest the newsletter, Todd was fired from his job as editor, and was never heard from again (except here).
I’m not sure what’s up with DXR-DAD, but I think it should be between George and him. I think I’ve met DXR-DAD at one of the events held at The Fiero Shop, but to tell the truth, I can’t put a face on him. (Now his car is a nice looking black SE, if I remember right).
Well this has become way more than what I thought I would write, and It’s a Friday night. I need to get out of here and cruse the strip.
Later Robert Yellow 87 GT
------------------
"By the time you die, you should be so used to paying taxes that it would be almost second nature to you."
Will Rogers, U.S. Writer and Humorist
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10:41 PM
Jun 16th, 2001
Toddster Member
Posts: 20871 From: Roswell, Georgia Registered: May 2001
Thanks for the compliment about the Newsletter Robert. I'm sorry that I don't remember who you are but you obviously came to a meeting at the time when the club was going through its hardest times. You also have a lot of errors in that post. George single-handedly brought the club from a few people to a large club!?!?!?!?!??! Is that what George told you? Take it from someone who has been involved with the club since the beginning, LONG before George came in, that George was the single WORST thing that ever happened to the club. He ran off prospective members in droves!
As for not mentioning the Fiero Shop in the newsletter, I refer you to the previous thread mentioned by Archie above. I wanted to distance the club from legal liability.
George is an uninsured, unlicensed, unqualified mechanic with a history of destroying cars. Don't believe me? Call 1-800-952-5210. That is the California Bureau of Automotive Repair. They have never heard of George Miller or the Fieroshop. And, according to them, if he is operating a business in automotive repair he is breaking the law. What else can I say!?
DESPITE ALL THAT, I offered to let George buy ad space, like everyone else. He said no. He said that he should not have to pay. He then later said he would pay a sum that was 1/2 of what everyone else was paying. I said, "no". Everyone pays the same amount for ad space. Hence, George was out of the newsletter completely. I made no favors for him and he took offense to that. His perogative.
As for the story on Tony's car. You have obviously been listening to George's revisionist history again. I was THERE. I saw what happened. George put the throw-out bearing in backwards. When he went to start the car he pressed the clutch. When it went all the way to the floor with no resistance, instead of trying to figure out the problem first, he just said, "oh well" and started the car. I need not tell you what happened next. That was all George. The fact that he hired Tony was as a means of paying off Tony to keep him from telling everybody about the situation.
I'll be the first to admit that Tony is a slow and ineffective worker (he worked for me before he worked for George). But one thing has nothing to do with the other. George botched a simple clutch replacement. That was just ONE example I can think of. I have a dozen other first-hand stories and I'm sure George has a lot of people to throw the blame at for each of them.
Don't get me wrong Robert. You seem like a nice guy and you are probably sincerely grateful that there is someone like George out there who is, not only willing to work on Fieros, but enthusiastic to do so. But at what cost? I spent a year trying to support George. I passed out flyers with his shop number on it, I mentioned him to Fiero owners, but all the time I was riding him to make his business legit by getting some skilled labor and legally licensed. He never did it and I finally lost confidence in him. That is the bottom line.
PS. I was not fired as newsletter editor, I quit the club in protest since the club would not vote to remove George from the club. George eventually "Got the Hint" and left of his own accord. He eventually went on to form "his own club". Feel free to call the current GGF club President John Szpara to confirm this.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Toddster: Thanks for the compliment about the Newsletter Robert. I'm sorry that I don't remember who you are but you obviously came to a meeting at the time when the club was going through its hardest times. You also have a lot of errors in that post. George single-handedly brought the club from a few people to a large club!?!?!?!?!??! Is that what George told you? Take it from someone who has been involved with the club since the beginning, LONG before George came in, that George was the single WORST thing that ever happened to the club. He ran off prospective members in droves!
Actually, George did increase the membership dramatically with most of the newer members being brought in through the Fiero Shop (I should know, I was one of them, as was Robert.......).....as for being the WORST thing that happened to the club, he brought in new members thus bringing in new revenue which ultimately funded Todd's newsletter so I wouldn't say he was the WORST thing that happened to the club.....
As for not mentioning the Fieroshop in the newsletter, I refer you to the previous thread mentioned by Archie above. I wanted to distance the club from legal liability.
This was not the function of a newsletter editor and that is the reason the newsletter was met with so much resistance from the club membership.......the following is a quote from the then President of the club: "By now most of you have received your newsletters. I have spoken to the Editor regarding my personal article. Todd edited my article to read as it does now.....Even though a person becomes an editor, that does not give him/her the right to edit what a person is saying and make it sound like something else just to fit that persons personal agenda."
George is an uninsured, unlicensed, unqualified mechanic with a history of destroying cars. Don't believe me? Call 1-800-952-5210. That is the California Bureau of Automotive Repair. They have never heard of George Miller or the Fiero Shop. And, according to them, if he is operating a business in automotive repair he is breaking the law. What else can I say!?
The truth is, Todd does not know the truth -- there are licenses hanging on the wall at the shop displayed prominently as specified - Robert may have seen them, I know I certainly have, but, Todd has not - he is still trying to tell it like it was and not like it is........this is the very kind of thing that gets blown out of proportion when someone feels the need to fuel a fire -- in other words, there are a lot of errors in your post......
DESPITE ALL THAT, I offered to let George buy ad space, like everyone else. He said no. He said that he should not have to pay. He then later said he would pay a sum that was 1/2 of what everyone else was paying. I said, "no". Everyone pays the same amount for ad space. Hence, George was out of the newsletter completely. I made no favors for him and he took offense to that. His perogative.
Now, this is fairly true but the cost Todd was charging for the ad space was so unrealistically high that virtually no one advertised.........and, if the only way the Fiero Shop could have been mentioned was through paid advertising, well.......whatever happened to "news"? Certainly the existance of a shop specializing in Fieros in a Fiero newsletter should be considered, at the very least, newsworthy.....
As for the story on Tony's car. You have obviously been listening to George's revisionist history again. I was THERE. I saw what happened. George put the throw-out bearing in backwards. When he went to start the car he pressed the clutch. When it went all the way to the floor with no resistance, instead of trying to figure out the problem first, he just said, "oh well" and started the car. I need not tell you what happened next. That was all George. The fact that he hired Tony was as a means of paying off Tony to keep him from telling everybody about the situation.
I'll be the first to admit that Tony is a slow and ineffective worker (he worked for me before he worked for George). But one thing has nothing to do with the other. George botched a simple clutch replacement. That was just ONE example I can think of. I have a dozen other first-hand stories and I'm sure George has a lot of people to throw the blame at for each of them.
Now he feels the need to start running down Tony. Tony is a friend of mine and continues to come into the shop so I feel fairly certain that Tony and George must have resolved whatever differences may have existed.......In fact, Tony installed an engine for me while at George's shop and I have yet to have a problem with it.... I have neither seen Tony slow or ineffective.......and, he is a lot of fun to work with too!
Don't get me wrong Robert. You seem like a nice guy and you are probably sincerely grateful that there is someone like George out there who is, not only willing to work on Fieros, but enthusiastic to do so. But at what cost? I spent a year trying to support George. I passed out flyers with his shop number on it, I mentioned him to Fiero owners, but all the time I was riding him to make his business legit by getting some skilled labor and legally licensed. He never did it and I finally lost confidence in him. That is the bottom line.[B]
This may very well be true.........However, I have known George for over a year and a half now and have met Todd twice - once in Modesto at a car show in March of 2000 and again at the GGF Poker Run in June of 2000. So, I know that in the past year and a half there have been a lot of changes in the Fiero Shop, most of which Todd is not aware of nor qualified to comment on - therefore, the above quotes are his opinion only based on the past......
[b]PS. I was not fired as newsletter editor, I quit the club in protest since the club would not vote to remove George from the club. George eventually "Got the Hint" and left of his own accord. He eventually went on to form "his own club". Feel free to call the current GGF club President John Szpara to confirm this.
I think that if you were to call the club President what you would find would be that there was a conflict between Todd and George which originated by verbal attacks by Todd at a club meeting (I have the email from the club President verifying this fact) and that after Todd exited the club George was to be reinstated only he elected not to do so. I don't believe that Todd was allowed the same opportunity and that should speak for itself....
If you should view the newsletter you will find that it is indeed a Todd Amelio creation........edited as he saw fit with disregard to the interests or desires of the club. This was clearly a one-man show with malice toward George Miller by the omission of the only specialized shop in the Northwest devoted to the repair and restoration of the Pontiac Fiero. I, myself, would think that a club newsletter would have some mention of that fact in order to promote the preservation of the Fiero within the Fiero community. While the newsletter was printed well, the content was biased and edited to suit the editor (see the quote above) and therefore it was decided to eliminate the newsletter entirely until such time as a suitable editor could be found (I know, I was at those meetings since I was formerly a member of GGF)
Now, I have said it before and I will say it again -- everyone has a right to their opinion but, to attempt to influence others with that opinion is akin to manipulation.....we are not all alike nor do any of us exist without flaw. I do not feel the need to try to make someone else look bad to feel good about myself and I am not perfect... and I don't expect others to be..... I know about the newsletters, I know about the clubs, I know about the Fiero Shop and I know about George - I have belonged to GGF and now belong to CFOG (and Todd, as I said, that was my creation, not George's)........in fact, I designed the web site for both clubs....I have been in a working environment with George at the Fiero Shop during the last ten months although I have no financial or legal responsibility for the shop. I see how George operates on a day-to-day basis and am in a far better position to determine what credentials George or the Fiero Shop has than Todd..........
I have tried to step in here several times because there are two individuals who cannot seem to resolve a problem - they are both headstrong opinionated individuals and they are both businessmen........my feeling is that they should be left to resolve these differences themselves without the cheering sections behind them or the boos of the crowd.....Personally, I am sick of seeing one person after another get ripped up on this Forum and watching everyone else jump on the wagon to defend or blast people or shops they don't even know......Both George and Archie are excellent mechanics in their own right and they both specialize in something different. I admire their experience and would not hesitate to consult either of them in their area of expertise. I think that anyone reading any of these posts here who have decided not to do business with either of these individuals is doing themselves a great disservice. Either of these men are more than capable of helping the Fiero community and they should be left to resolve their issues amongst themselves......this is just my opinion.........George tried to make an apology to the Fiero community - whether it appears right or wrong to you does not alter the fact that he tried to apologize in his own way, whether he did it in the same manner any of the rest of us would have done or not.......why not take it at face value and move on............
[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 06-16-2001).]
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04:45 PM
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
I posted earlier stating that I had no problems with either man. But since I have followed this thread I have gone back and read ALL of the thread that caused George to air this 'apology' here.
What I found is Archie asking if anyone has used a certain clutch. He did mention that it came from the Fiero Shop, but he didn't even say it was bad. Just asked for comments. When he went on and on asking for comments with no answer, he finally did say that the clutch had not performed as he expected and was just gonna see about getting his money back.
Next was a message from George, very defensive and accusatory aimed at Archie. Here is Archie's response...
Well George, In this thread I'm just looking for someone who has this clutch so that we can compare results. You and I discussed this on the phone today and I also talked to Robbin. This issue WAS being settled off list.
With all the customer relations problems you've had lately on this forum, I really don't want to appear to be picking on you, that's why I've called you and not discussed the facts here in public. The statement you make above doesn't jive with what you told me on the phone today.
However, since you've decided to discuss this in public. I'd like to mention a couple of things. Just to keep the record straight.
Obviously, Archie tried to keep this off of the forum. He is a customer that is not satisfied and deserves better treatment. Every post from George seems very angry. Personally, I would not have been as patient as Archie was in this situation.
Now Terry, I have nothing against you, so before you stand up for George as you always do... I will admit that I am not a Fiero Shop customer and probably never will be since I live in Tennessee, BUT I am a member of this forum and have read this through thoroughly since it was brought to light by George's 'apology'. Your comment that this should be handled privately is true. It should have. Obviously, Archie tried to do just that. As he stated, "With all the customer relations problems you've (Fiero Shop) had lately on this forum", he didn't want to damage anyone's business. He just wanted to be done fairly. But he wasn't. At this point, this is a public matter and we have a right to see how it is handled. I have seen George threaten people with slander for saying bad things about Fiero Shop, but that is just the danger of being in business. Word of mouth can be your best friend or your worst enemy. In my opinion, this thread has been very damaging for Fiero Shop's credibility. Not because of Archie or Bill, but because of George. And your constant taking up for him makes him look unable to do it himself. I realize that he is your friend and your boss, but over the past six months a lot of your posts have been defending George... As I said, I have nothing against you and am not flaming you at all.. but I would value your input a lot more as a fellow owner instead of as George's saviour. I hope you understand what I mean...
Bottom line. This has been put before us, and I think no matter how it is handled (if it is handled) we have a right to see because we are 'potential' customers of both shops.
Sorry this got so long... But hey! It's my 1000th post so I had to make it a good one! I am in 4 digits now!
Since people are expecting me to answer I will. This apology was not to DXR DAD nor Toddster or even Archie.This apology was to the rest of the forum who somehow got mixed up in this issue. Terry has said it quite simply that people should not say they will not do business with either Archie or me for what is going on. Archie has his expertise and I have mine, and we are both trying to preserve the Fieros in our on way. I will say this to Archie for one time only. If Archie had paid me I would reimburse him for the clutch, but I did not receive any money for it nor has he paid me for it. I have called Robin and spoken to him on several occasions and was told that he was waiting for a call from Archie. I do not know who is right and who is wrong but for gods sake Archie call Robin and I know he will work something out with you. I will also if needed call him again. I for one do not go around trying to hurt anybody and as I was sick and in the hospital this past week, I am in no mood to argue with anybody. Whatever decisions are made about me in the forum I would just be happy if you kept them to yourself. At this writing my shop is overloaded with work and I have more work then I know what to do with.We also have several hundred customers who will not go anywhere else as they all know what I sell and install, I will warrant the parts and labor. I have a new mechanic starting on Monday and also have certified mechanics working for me. Speaking of certifications, as all of you know GM dealers have their mechanics certified and they still screw up. Todd Smith will attest to that as the Pontiac dealer put a hole in his transmission and then could not or would not fix it. I also have an 85 coupe that I am restoring for a customer that was dropped from the hoist and they would not fix it, and that is why the car is here now. For those of you who need to know I was certified as a mechanic many years ago and it is nobody's business but mine. I will not post on this issue anymore as I consider it closed.
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05:36 PM
tgowens Member
Posts: 2496 From: Somewhere in my Fiero, of course! Registered: Apr 2000
Songman, I agree with 95% of what you are saying......I will restate that George is my friend, not my boss - I work with him and not for him and that is the way it is between us. George is perfectly capable of taking up for himself and does not need me to do that - I just can't stand the way others who do not know him or the shop feel the need to jump in and blast away when the don't have the facts surrounding the discussion......there are two sides to every story -- if you will notice here that I have taken neither side - I have owned my own business before and do so even now - I stand behind my work and resolve issues as they arise to the best of my ability - I agree about "word of mouth" but you must also realize that when things get out of hand sometimes the mouth works before the brain does.
As for my being a Fiero owner, I have five of them.......and, I will tell you this....ten months ago I knew very little about the Fiero.....last weekend I dropped an engine out of one of my cars, replaced the transmission and reinstalled the engine.......the car runs perfectly. Had it not been for what I have learned from my association with George I probably would not have undertaken that task.
George is a friend, whether I agree with him or not, whether I like the way he talks or what he says is immaterial........he is a friend - we butt heads at times but that's the way it is........it doesn't make him a bad person, a bad mechanic, or a bad friend....
And, as for you doing business with the Fiero Shop, certainly it is your choice but, the shop does sell parts all over the country and in Canada and Europe as well......The Fiero is becoming a rare commodity and those of us who love them and prefer to restore them and keep them in proper mechanical order should take advantage of the George's and Archie's out there - they do know what they are doing.........
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05:52 PM
Songman Member
Posts: 12496 From: Nashville, TN Registered: Aug 2000
Very good answers from both of you... I think that is all that was needed here to soothe some of the problem...
George, we are sorry that you were in the hospital and hope you are feeling better.
I tried to word my posts in a way so that no one thought I was against anyone. I hope I did that. And I have never thought that I would not do business with Fiero Shop, nor any other business. Mishaps happen, it is just a matter of fixing it...
George, I think your offer to call Robbie (or Robin or whatever the correct name is) is admirable and I am sure Archie would appreciate it since he seems to be getting no response.
I wouldn't be surpised if we don't see a good ending to this whole thing yet!
Terry, do you really think that if you say, "The snow is black" often enough that people are going to believe it????
Off hand I am delighted that Songman posted the following. It allows me to believe that the people on this forum are smart enough to see through your crap.
quote
Originally posted by Songman: Now Terry, I have nothing against you, so before you stand up for George as you always do... I have seen George threaten people with slander for saying bad things about Fiero Shop, but that is just the danger of being in business. Word of mouth can be your best friend or your worst enemy. In my opinion, this thread has been very damaging for Fiero Shop's credibility. Not because of Archie or Bill, but because of George. ... As I said, I have nothing against you and am not flaming you at all.. but I would value your input a lot more as a fellow owner instead of as George's saviour. I hope you understand what I mean...
Bottom line. This has been put before us, and I think no matter how it is handled (if it is handled) we have a right to see because we are 'potential' customers of both shops.
I do need to respond to one comment Terry made that is genuinely disappointing. Terry saw fit to try to start a fight by bringing Tony into it, on a personal nature. Tony's work record is a matter of fact and has nothing to do with our personal relationship. When George had Tony's car laid-up for 6 months who loaned him a car? George? You, Terry? No, I DID! I loaned him my spare Fiero for 6 months because of George's screw-up! no charge. When Tony lost his job who loaned him a $1000 to get back on his feet? George? You, Terry? NO, It was me. So don't dare try to incite an argument by taking out of context a harmless observation about Tony's character that, everyone who knows him, understood. On the "Freind" scale you don't even rate.
As for the rest of your ranting I'm happy to let the facts speak for themselves.
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12:48 PM
tgowens Member
Posts: 2496 From: Somewhere in my Fiero, of course! Registered: Apr 2000
Todd, It has nothing to do with me saying snow is black -- as I have said, I am just tired of others feeling the need to get on here and blast away at people and maliciously try to harm them. This thread started as a result of an apology that George made to the Fiero community and that's where it should have been dropped. But, people like you keep coming back into this thread to try to convince others that they should feel as you do - you have had an attitude of vengeance against George for a long time and that is obvious - if you want to feel that way it is certainly your choice, but - to come on here and try to influence others into believing just as you do is wrong. So, if there is any "crap" (as you put it......I haven't used words such as that and won't stoop to your level to do so).....it isn't mine.......as I said, you just don't seem to have a clue what this is all about - it was about a problem that arose between George and Archie - certainly not one that you had anything to do with......so, why did you feel the need to come onto this venue to unload on George other than it gave you another outlet to further your anger and ire against him for something that happened almost a year ago.
Todd, I'll tell you something here.....you are the one who first mentioned Tony and you know that - I have said nothing derogatory about him but you have....I don't see the need to get on here and run people into the ground. You, on the other hand, feel so supreme that you feel the need to do so......it shows what you are made of.
Everything I have said is true (and I have the documentation to back up anything I have said) and when confronted with the facts you seem to skirt the issues........leave it alone Todd, there is no point in coming on here just to try to win battles.....that's not what this Forum is for.
Wouldn't it be a nice world if everyone was as perfect as some people think they are?
Now -- blast away if you want -- I will not post to this thread again...........
[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 06-17-2001).]
Originally posted by tgowens: I will not post to this thread again...........
Good. Because everytime you do you just embarrass yourself.
You are the one who made this personal Terry. You decided to go TOTALLY off subject and make this personal by bringing up the newsletter...I NEVER mentioned it until you did. YOU were the one to mention Tony. I mentioned Tony's CAR, and how George F%&^*$ it up. I have desparately tried to avoid making this personal. You are the one who is obviously angry and bitter. And for the life of me I can't figure out why. I never did ANYTHING to you. Ever.
On the other hand you have successfully managed to talk about everything...or should I say everyONE, except the TOPIC-- GEORGE'S BUSINESS!
This started with Archie's complaint about George's failure to stand by his warranty. I joined in to protect other would-be customers by telling them simple facts--which you still have not contradicted, not even once. Oh, you have managed to write novels about what a meanie I am and how my post are all malicious and personal. But you have not managed to address the only thing anybody here gives a damn about:
1) WILL GEORGE GIVE ARCHIE HIS REFUND? YES or NO? AND IS HE GOING TO STAND BY HIS REFUND POLICY?
2) IS GEORGE EVER GOING TO GET A LICENSE (Fishing Licenses don't count) FROM THE CALIFORNIA BUREAU OF AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR TO CONDUCT A LEGAL BUSINESS AS AN AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR SHOP? AND WHEN?
3) IS GEORGE GOING TO GET INSURANCE? IF SO, WHEN?
4) DO ANY OF GEORGE'S EMPLOYEES HAVE ANY TRAINING IN AUTO MECHANICS? GOD KNOWS GEORGE DOESN'T. IF SO, WHO ARE THEY AND WHAT ARE THEIR QUALIFICATIONS?
5) DID HE, OR DID HE NOT DESTROY TONY'S CAR? YES OR NO? NO MORE 5000 WORD ESSAYS THAT DODGE THE QUESTION.
THIS DAMN THREAD IS 40 POSTS LONG AND THE LAST ONE ARCHIE STARTED IS EVEN LONGER AND WE HAVE YET TO GET A STRIGHT ANSWER (an ON-TRACK answer) FROM EITHER OF YOU.
As for George's Apology, "I'm sorry that I was right and you were all wrong". I'm not impressed!
Even YOU must have known that George was opening a can of worms when he wrote that pithy tripe.
So if you don't wish to "lower yourself" to dealing with the issue instead of dragging personalities into a VERY SIMPLY set of questions then I say, ITS ABOUT TIME!
But I grow wary of sparring with George's lacky; George, when are YOU going to be a stand-up guy and fix the problem with Archie, obey the LAW, follow the standards of ethical business conduct, and REALLY apologize?
Knightrider31, It's not out of hand, just off-topic. Terry and George are under the false impression that if they heap enough manure on this problem that something beautiful will grow.
[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 06-17-2001).]
