ok Todd - you have forced my hand........I will post this one time just to set the record straight from my perspective.

To answer your questions.....

1) WILL GEORGE GIVE ARCHIE HIS REFUND? YES or NO? AND IS HE GOING TO STAND BY HIS REFUND POLICY? - what are you asking me for? I cannot make a commitment for George any more than you can.......

2) IS GEORGE EVER GOING TO GET A LICENSE (Fishing Licenses don't count) FROM THE CALIFORNIA BUREAU OF AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR TO CONDUCT A LEGAL BUSINESS AS AN AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR SHOP? AND WHEN? - Fiero Shop has a license from the Division of Licensing, Bureau of Automotive Repair (Registration #AL213649) as I have mentioned in my earlier posts.[b]

3) IS GEORGE GOING TO GET INSURANCE? IF SO, WHEN? - [b]George has insurance.

4) DO ANY OF GEORGE'S EMPLOYEES HAVE ANY TRAINING IN AUTO MECHANICS? GOD KNOWS GEORGE DOESN'T. IF SO, WHO ARE THEY AND WHAT ARE THEIR QUALIFICATIONS? - Yes, George's employees have training in auto mechanics. Who they are and what their qualifications are can be discussed freely with any customer who desires to know.

5) DID HE, OR DID HE NOT DESTROY TONY'S CAR? YES OR NO? NO MORE 5000 WORD ESSAYS THAT DODGE THE QUESTION. - Again, why are you asking me? I do not have knowledge of the situation and as such, am not qualified to comment on it.

On the other hand you have successfully managed to talk about everything...or should I say everyONE, except the TOPIC-- GEORGE'S BUSINESS! - Exactly - George's business is George's business - I don't have to talk about it, everyone else does.

I joined in to protect other would-be customers by telling them simple facts--which you still have not contradicted, not even once. - Todd, I would suggest that, if you intend to tell facts that you know what those facts are and not what you think them to be -- facts have to be accurate to be meaningful and what you are purveying is obsolete information, hearsay, and conjecture and that is why I am disputing your words - that along with the fact that you are continuing a personal battle with George and using this forum to do it.....

....WE HAVE YET TO GET A STRIGHT ANSWER (an ON-TRACK answer) FROM EITHER OF YOU. - I always give straight answers when they are required and if they are of such a subject that I am qualified to answer. It is obvious from your statements that you do not have facts but rather conjectures and as such you are not qualified to comment on the facts as they stand today. That was my whole point all along, thank you for making it abundantly clear - you were not involved in the Archie/George/Robin transaction and as such, you have no facts.

What you have brought into this is an ugly bit of vengeance reminiscent of a little kid aiming at getting back at someone. Now, run along because no one wants to play any more.

Angry? Me? - You bet I am! - I am angry that there are people like you who feel the need to antagonize others - just like the little bully in school - every school had one and I guess that is why you are here.......so, like I said -- blast away - you want to dispute the facts? come over to the shop and see the licenses and credentials......then will you issue a public apology for your inaccuracies and misinformed information? Probably not -- That was all George was doing was apologizing - You, on the other hand chose to turn it into a blood bath by slinging your arrows intended to wound and harm -- and I suppose you think you are helping the Fiero community by it all.........

Now, I am leaving this post and this forum. I have my business to attend to and I simply will not waste my time on people like you........

I applaud posters like Songman, BAM-BAM, CoolBlue87GT, firstfiero, Oreif, Robert, and stsmithgt for being polite, respectful and considerate. It has been a pleasure to know and post with those people on here.

As I said before, I hope that Archie and George get this worked out - it is up to the two of them.......

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 06-17-2001).]

1) WILL GEORGE GIVE ARCHIE HIS REFUND? YES or NO? AND IS HE GOING TO STAND BY HIS REFUND POLICY? - what are you asking ME for? I cannot make a commitment for George any more than you can.......

Then why do you keep posting?

2) IS GEORGE EVER GOING TO GET A LICENSE (Fishing Licenses don't count) FROM THE CALIFORNIA BUREAU OF AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR TO CONDUCT A LEGAL BUSINESS AS AN AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR SHOP? AND WHEN? - Fiero Shop HAS a license from the Division of Licensing, Bureau of Automotive Repair (Registration #AL213649) as I have mentioned in my earlier posts.

I guess when I listed the phone number of the Bureau of Automotive Repairs to confirm that George is operating illegally I assumed too much. I thought you would actually call before posting. I'll try again: GO to http://www.dca.ca.gov click on the "AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR" icon, click on the "VERIFY A LICENSE" icon, type in fieroshop or George Miller, or AL213649. IN EVERY CASE, you will get the following answer, "NO RECORDS FOUND"

Hmmm, must be his fishing license number.

3) IS GEORGE GOING TO GET INSURANCE? IF SO, WHEN? - George HAS insurance.

.......well? who is the bonding company? What is his liability level? How can he have insurance without a certificate from the fire marshall (required to get insurance). What is the number of the certifiacte? The Richmond City Fire Marshall has never heard of the Fieroshop either. Want their phone number?

4) DO ANY OF GEORGE'S EMPLOYEES HAVE ANY TRAINING IN AUTO MECHANICS? GOD KNOWS GEORGE DOESN'T. IF SO, WHO ARE THEY AND WHAT ARE THEIR QUALIFICATIONS? - Yes, George's employees have training in auto mechanics. Who they are and what their qualifications are can be discussed freely with any customer who desires to know.

Gee, I could have sworn I DID ask the question. Let's see...hmm...if so, who are they and what are their qualifications?... YEP, that seems to qualify as a question where I got my degree.

5) DID HE, OR DID HE NOT DESTROY TONY'S CAR? YES OR NO? NO MORE 5000 WORD ESSAYS THAT DODGE THE QUESTION. - Again, why are you asking me? I do not have knowledge of the situation and as such, am not qualified to comment on it.

Again, then why are you taking George's side on something you have no knowledge about?

Todd, I would suggest that, if you intend to tell facts that you know what those facts are and not what you think them to be..

You really should try to take your own advise Terry. My facts are supported by phone numbers, website addresses, names, dates, and I only mentioned FIRST HAND experiences I have had with George unlike you who has nothing of substance to add here. I BOUGHT a clutch from George, THAT IS WHY I JOINED IN THE ARCHIE THREAD. I saw George destroy Tony's clutch with my own little eye balls. THAT is also relevant information for anyone concerned about doing business with George in relation to clutches. That is why I am here, no personal vendenta, I have better uses for my time. And if I did want to harm George or his business I would have done it a LONG time ago. Archie asked the question, I related my experiences. Period. Where exactly do you get your facts? From one of George's flyers no doubt.

Now, run along because no one wants to play any more.

Boy, its a good thing that YOU are not getting personal. I'll try to watch my P's and Q's and be more mature Mr. Owens, sir.

come over to the shop and see the licenses and credentials......then will you issue a public apology for your inaccuracies and misinformed information?

Fine. Do you mind if I bring the Fire Marshall, Consumer Affairs Officer, EPA, and Richmond Better Business Bureau along?......It's awfully quite all of a sudden.....

I applaud posters like Songman, BAM-BAM, CoolBlue87GT, firstfiero, Oreif, Robert, and stsmithgt for being polite, respectful and considerate. It has been a pleasure to know and post with those people on here.

Congratulations Terry, I would have sworn that it was physically impossible to stick an entire human head up 7 posters asses at the same time. Perhaps you should re-read their posts. What I read is that they do not seem to value your opinion that much. I'm not saying that mine is any better. But at least I don't feel the need to ingratiate myself to the other posters to extracate myself out of a self-made house of cards. I don't have to, I have facts.

As I said before, I hope that Archie and George get this worked out.

That much I agree with. But the ball is in George's court and so far its a swing and a miss.

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 06-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 06-17-2001).]

Hey guys... I'm gonna take a chance at getting between two angry men here...

George said he was willing to call the guy and help Archie find a satisfactory conclusion to his problem. I say we give him that chance. Nothing is going to come from this battle between you two. The main question here was what is going to be done about a clutch. Let's just see that resolved.. Deal?

Todd, I agree that you were brought into this without trying to be... and you have a right to be angry about that. But sometimes it is best to just back off from a situation. Same for you, Terry. Let's let Archie and George handle it from here. Archie must be out of town or something or just chosen to stay out of this, but I say tomorrow is another business day and we should give George the chance to do what he said he would do...

When it is all said and done here, we all do want the same things.. Forgive me for butting in between you two...

------------------

Tennessee Fiero Owners

I quoted from the license because I am sitting here looking at it! The web site you cited also has the following disclaimer: "While the Department believes the information to be reliable, human or mechanical error remains a possibility, as does delay in the posting or updating of information. Therefore, the Department makes no guarantee as to the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, currency, or correct sequencing of the information."

Personally, I don't feel the need to sit here and answer to you. If you want to go on a one man campaign just to try to make yourself look good you will have to do it some other way.

Todd, you are an immature little child who refuses to grow up - your attacks based on "facts" are simply too ludicrous! You evidently lack the maturity to talk to someone in an intelligent manner and

"I would have sworn that it was physically impossible to stick an entire human head up 7 posters asses at the same time."

You are showing just what you are made of Todd............your language befits your personality. I do not have to resort to profanity to get a point across.

"Again, then why are you taking George's side on something you have no knowledge about?"

I haven't taken anybody's "side", or, haven't you noticed?

"You really should try to take your own advise Terry. My facts are supported by phone numbers, website addresses, names, dates,............Where exactly do you get your facts? From one of George's flyers no doubt."

As I have said, I am LOOKING at this license. As to other facts I have cited, I have the letters and emails from the quotes I have made. Other facts are from my direct knowledge having been at the Fiero Shop for the past ten months. I don't need you to get on here and create a tirade about what "used to be" - it does no good - if you want to comment about YOUR experiences, that's fine but don't sit there and say things like "George is operating illegally" when you really don't know what you are talking about. I have been here - I am looking at his license, I think that qualifies me more than you to determine if he is operating illegally or not.........

"The Richmond City Fire Marshall has never heard of theFieroshop either. Want their phone number?"

You sure are going to a lot of trouble and making a lot of calls just to try to prove a point, aren't you? Much more than the average person would -- it makes one wonder just why you are making such a fuss!

"...unlike you who has nothing of substance to add here."

I defer to the authority (or, self professed "know-it-all")

"I don't feel the need to ingratiate myself to the other posters to extracate myself out of a self-made house of cards."

I don't have to "ingratiate" myself to anyone -- I was simply acknowledging their courtesy.

Todd, the very first time I ever met you (and you probably don't even remember) you tried to impress me with your knowledge. People don't have to tell others how great they are, the others will know. I wasn't impressed as you seemed to want to make me think that you know a lot - personally, I don't care what or how much a person knows, it's what they do with it that's important to me. If they can use their knowledge for the good of the community I appreciate them......if they want to use it as you are using yours, I loathe it.

I am much older than you and have had many more experiences than you and been in the business world longer than you have been alive - I don't need you to tell me how to run my life, what to think, who to associate with, who to do business with or anything of the sort. I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN - THIS WAS AN APOLOGY FROM GEORGE - LEAVE IT AT THAT!!!!!!!

No sweat Songman. As far as I am concerned everybody should have the right to post an opinion on any subject.

I would normally just turn my back on childish disputes but when a business, or friend of a business, posts outright false information which could mislead prospective consumers, I gotta act.

I have to admit too that I'm kinda enjoying myself. I may have been dragged into this subject by George's initial... "reference" to me but I'd be a fool to leave a poker game in which I am holding an Ace high flush!

Bring It On!

quote Originally posted by tgowens: ...Now, I am leaving this post and this forum. I have my business to attend to and I simply will not waste my time on people like you........

Wow...this says it all to me. What was the name of that shop again?

I can't believe where this went...and to think it was all brought back up again by a befuddled apology.

I do hope everything gets worked out...

Pure Gold! Damn, I'm loving this:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tgowens:
I quoted from the license because I am sitting here looking at it! The web site you cited also has the following disclaimer: "While the Department believes the information to be reliable, human or mechanical error remains a possibility, as does delay in the posting or updating of information. Therefore, the Department makes no guarantee as to the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, currency, or correct sequencing of the information."

You won't mind if, based on your clear objectivity, I take the word of the State of California over you.

Personally, I don't feel the need to sit here and answer to you.

You're doing a great job of it. I have not received a correct answer yet.

Todd, you are an immature little child who refuses to grow up - your attacks based on "facts" are simply too ludicrous!

You mean the "facts" that you have yet to disprove even once? Those facts?

You are showing just what you are made of Todd............your language befits your personality. I do not have to resort to profanity to get a point across.

F*&$%#@ 'A' right!

I haven't taken anybody's "side", or, haven't you noticed?

That is a joke right? I get it...good one!

Other facts are from my direct knowledge having been at the Fiero Shop for the past ten months.

I've known George for 5 years. Go on and tell me AAAAAAAAALL about the man!

if you want to comment about YOUR experiences, that's fine

It is!? Oh thank you Mr. Owens!!

but don't sit there and say things like "George is operating illegally"

Why not? He is! Registering a business Name or getting a resale number is all fine and well. I know George has done those things. But that does not mean he has a license to provide Automotive Repair Services in the State of California.

You sure are going to a lot of trouble and making a lot of calls just to try to prove a point, aren't you?

Damn right! You've been there for 10 months? When was his last State Inspection? When did he last have his Fire Extinguishers tested? What does he do with his used oil, anti-freeze, and hydrolic fluid?

Are you seriously telling me that as a resident of this state I don't have a right to know? George should count his stars that I havenot reported him to the authorites! Instead I am giving him the chance to get his act together! WHY? because we actually need a fieroshop in Northern California. But by God it had better be a legal and above board operation. THAT is not negotiable. So if George IS a freind of yours, then be a freind to him and tell him to get his act together!

Todd, the very first time I ever met you (and you probably don't even remember)

I'll be honest Terry. I don't remember. You obviously did not impress me much.

you tried to impress me with your knowledge...I am much older than you and have had many more experiences than you and been in the business world longer than you have been alive

Well, I'm gald YOU are not trying to impress anyone.

I HAVE SAID IT BEFORE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN - THIS WAS AN APOLOGY FROM GEORGE - LEAVE IT AT THAT!!!!!!!

If you can't stand the heat Terry, get out of the kitchen. George did NOT apologieze. ANYONE reading that SO-CALLED apology was scoffing at it.

Look at my number of posts! How do you think I found this site? A dozen people told me that George was making an ass out of himself and gave me this web address. Apology? I'd rather be tied to a chair and forced to watch reruns of designing women for 7 straight days than have to re-read that self-serving, insincere, venomous, garbage again. The only thing George is sorry about is that everyone is seeing him for what he REALLY is.

Go on Terry, give me more reason to keep posting. You are doing your "freind" a big favor by keeping this thread going.

Read your own posts and tell me what you think the readers here think of George's shop. Keep Posting!

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 06-17-2001).]

Todd, "when a business, or friend of a business, posts outright false information which could mislead prospective consumers,..."

I have not posted one false statement here and I resent your insinuation. As I said, I have documentation to back up every statement or claim I have made, otherwise, I would not make them. To me, that means they are accurate and factual.

Songman, once again, I agree with you - that was the point I tried making long ago - let the individuals involved resolve it rather than having people who are not involved try to uncork just to maintain a vendetta.

TRiAD, "Wow...this says it all to me. What was the name of that shop again?"

I am not sure what that says to you - all I have said is that I have more important things to do than to be insulted and called a liar! I value honesty and integrity highly and was raised to treat others with kindness and respect - It just took me a long time to realize that others weren't raised with the same values. And, just so you know, the shop being mentioned is not my shop. I run an entirely different business and have for many years. I have been in the aforementioned shop working on my own Fieros. - but, that is exactly what I am talking about - one persons opinion influencing another - it happens and when it is slanted and biased as this thread has gotten to be it is wrong. I have maintained that all along and that is why I have been posting. the Fiero Shop has a multitude of customers who would attest to their products and service and I am sure that there are a few disgruntled customers as well - all businesses have that. George made an apology and that was the point - all of this other nonsense came about when others felt the need to jump into the act and criticize someone who apologized.

This is ridiculous! let George, Archie, Terry, Robin and Todd solve this/these matters away from the Forum. This happens averytime two people here do not agree. First it starts with a little tit for tat exchange followed by heavy flaming. Then when the apology comes, like was said in an earlier reply, "The wolves come out". These matters can't end untill Cliff has to close the thread (which I hope he does)Then another will start in it's place. This is not a matter of Forum business, this personal between seperate parties. At this point, instead of wasting bandwidth here, waste it in your individual E-Mails. This has no place here. This place is about Fiero information, not someones opinion on business ethics.
I don't know any of you personaly and chances are I never will. But if I do have the pleasure of meeting you at a show or somewhere else, I want it to be a fond experience.
George, Terry, Archie, Todd, good luck to all of you in your respective businesses. You all have issues with eachother that need to be rectified. 1-800-CALLATT save each other a buck or two.

Peace out!

------------------
Knowledge is POWER!
That is why the ignorant remain Weak!

Gee, one of the sad things about threads like this one is that it becomes very difficult to figure out who has the most credibility. Since one of the disputes seems to be whether or not the shop has the proper license, how about posting a scan of the shops license? Seems to me that if a proper license could be shown, that would help establish Terry's credibility. No license? Maybe Todd is the credible one.
Just an idea.

ok, just a few quick points. (and I am not on anyone's "side" just I thought or two from someone that was once in a similar situation)

1) the last post from Fieroshop :

quote Whatever decisions are made about me in the forum I would just be happy if you kept them to yourself. At this writing my shop is overloaded with work and I have more work then I know what to do with.We also have several hundred customers who will not go anywhere else as they all know what I sell and install, I will warrant the parts and labor.

this sounds like a "I don't care if you come to my store for parts, I don't need your business" statement. Not trying to flame you, just letting you know what it sounds like from my P.O.V. ((point of view))

2) being that I (was) part owner in a Diesel Repair shop, I sometimes connect drivers selling stuff, that other drivers need. At one point a friend was selling a Transmission from his tractor, and the guy buying it could not wait for a check to be sent from state to state. (due to the fact that he had an arrival time of 3 days.) I trying to be a friend charged the price of the Transmission to the guys credit card for my friend, and sent the transmission on it's way. needless to say the when the transmission stopped working I had to eat the cost of another transmission simply because I allowed the transaction to take place within the confines of our business.

If that happened here or not I can't say and won't try to say, but IF it did, then I would hope the Fieroshop would "step up to the plate and take the hit." I will not be so easily swayed into not sending any of my purchase needs away from Fierostore because of this, if I did, then my mistake should have put me out of business too. However I did have to "take the hit" and loose allot of money on something I had nothing to do with other then trying to help someone I respected.

3)(this is just a question for Archie or Fieroshop or whomever) what kind of lining is on the clutch plate? just curious as we use blade type clutches in diesel app.s

sorry for the long post, just trying to offer some 3 person views without a bias.

[This message has been edited by fierofrek (edited 06-17-2001).]

[This message has been edited by fierofrek (edited 06-17-2001).]

Bam-Bam, you're right. I guess I am one of those wolves. But I feel so angry about the manipulation of the whole thread that I feel an obligation to relate the real story.

Obviously that means others will have their own version of "the real story". And so goes the soap opera. Didn't want it to be that way but when you are dealing with someone's livelyhood they can get a little "subjective".

Credibility? Well, I posted a link to the Califonria Bureau of Automitive Repair AND their 800 number. That's where I get my info.

You guys can check it out for yourselves. Do a search on The Fiero Shop or the number Terry claims to be their license and the State says, "sorry charlie, no license"

[This message has been edited by Toddster (edited 06-17-2001).]

The way I see it, one is right and one is wrong.
The only way to truely answer this question?
Take it before the judge and show evidence (legal evidence) and prove your points...

We can all insert our perspective's here about what weve read or what we feel.
We can beat the drums and climb the wagons.

Either way, one or more respectable people could suffer because of the out come of non-judicial directions (ie people's opinions having bad effect's on ones business) taken by members here in our forum.
You all are adults and know how easily people are swayed by opinions.

I for one, really appreciate that fact that our fellow members here keep us all up to date on "whos ripping off who".
I also believe that within Cliff's rules, we all have the right to post our feelings over matters like this one.

I just wish "Judge Judy's a$$ owned a Fiero right now and was here to help!

------------------
Harry Waggoner
1985 GT 266K+ FOCOSEVA,FOCOA
"If you want to blend in, take the bus!"

Rodrv6, thank you for the idea - as I have said, I have documentation to back up the statements I have made.........

Now, can everyone leave this alone and let the people involved resolve it???????

Interesting. Particularly the State Seal in the center of the "license" which, I believe, should be in blue ink and not black.
I'll still take the word of the State of California Terry. But if you really insist that the State computers have just misplaced George's licence or that the operators on the Bureau's 800 number are clueless then I'll call the Secratry of State tomorrow and resolve the question once and for all.

Will HIS word on the subject will be enough to resolve the matter Terry?

I simply cannot believe this -- a scan of the license is in black and white and you still dispute it! Todd, you do what you want - I have proved my point with documentation issued by the Division of Licensing (as I stated in my earlier post) as I said I could do - I do not deal in fabrications or conjecture but in fact - fact is, the Fiero Shop is licensed and that puts this to rest.............end of story.......I have the proof and you don't, it's as simple as that!

I don't want to get into the middle of this but why does the scan of the license say "VOID"?
The tops of the "V" are just above the center of the bar-code, The "O" Is just below by the Registration number, The "I" is on the 07 of the receipt number, and the "D"
is around the word shop.

Is this a watermark? I am not going to pick sides. But it does look like the license isn't any good with the "void" down the left side. I am not from California so I have never seen an actual license (unscanned) and it's just something I noticed.

Dave, it is a watermark which shows when light passes through the document (such as scanning or copying) to prevent someone from duplicating a license. On the original the watermark is not visible on the face of the document..........

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 06-18-2001).]

OK, Thanks. I never scanned/photocopied anything with a watermark to see what it does. I just wanted to check.

Wow, I take a couple of days away from this and you guys get crazy.

You know what guys, this is getting totally out of hand.

The fact that tgowens is in the Fiero Shop today (as witnessed by the fact that he is scanning a document that should be hanging on the wall there) means that George is also there in the Shop and monitoring this thread.

Fiero owners across the US and around the world are sitting here, reading this, and wondering just what the hell is going on in the Bay area.

All of this yelling and name calling from a group of people who should be sharing a common interest is appalling. It would be bad enough if it was coming from different areas of the country but you guys are all in the same region and you are destroying yourselves.

George, this part of this message is being said DIRECTLY to you.....

You are either a very stubborn man or a very stupid man. When I initially agreed to purchase a clutch from you, I based that decission on trust. I trusted your reputation and your written & verbal guarantees, warrantees and promises. For the price of a clutch, you have allowed your reputation to be dragged thru the mud for several weeks. The fact that Owens needs to be in your shop today to be scanning a document from your wall indicats that you not only endorse but, in fact, are participating in this latest flame fight.

For the matter of a few hundred dollars, you have destroyed any positive reputation you may have had AND you've participated in the "Tearing Apart" of the Bay Area Fiero community.

As I said, You are either very stubborn or very stupid.

A very stubborn man would would allow his own business and his own Fiero community to be torn apart just because he didn't want to honor his Guarantees & Warrantees.

A Very stupid business man would actually participate in this flaming (destroying his reputation) to get revenge or the "Final Word" against Bay area people with whom you've been fueding with for some time.

From the beginning you have had the chance to do the right thing. You could have simply said "Hey Archie, looks like that thing didn't workout, I'm sorry about that. Here's a refund and a little something for your trouble." For a few hundred $$$ and a few polite words it would have been over with and your reputation would have been all the better for it. And the rest of the world wouldn't have know how much hatred there is in the Bay area.

But instead, you immediately tried to put the blame on someone else (anyone else). You treated this customer like he was just some Joe Blow and you tried to blow him off by telling him that he installed &/or broke in the clutch wrong. That might have worked when you are dealing with some Joe Blow on the phone, but it didn't work with me. Then you tried to claim that your weren't the one who solicited & made this sale. Then you told several other stories that didn't agree with other things you've said.

Now you sit there, in your office, right next to tgowens letting him speak for you and allowing this flaming to go on. You must figure that as long as the Flame war is going on, it will keep people from demanding that you honor your word.

If you were a real smart person, you would have done the right thing from the start.

Now, speaking to all of you, I'd ask you to cool your jets. I know that if this argument was going on between Fiero people in the Chicago area, I and many others would be trying like hell to stop it. For the sake of the Bay area Fiero people, I'd like to ask that everyone take a breath.

George, forget it..... keep my money, I've been screwed before. I'll display your POS clutch on the wall in my office and think of you whenever I look at it. But don't you worry, you can keep my money, I've learned once again not to take anyone at their word.

Enough said.

Archie

Archie, just so you know, I am here because I have been doing some work here on my car, George is NOT here until sometime tomorrow........you said, "The fact that tgowens is in the Fiero Shop today (as witnessed by the fact that he is scanning a document that should be hanging on the wall there) means that George is also there in the Shop and monitoring this thread." - things are not always as they appear to be and that's what I have been trying to get across on this forum.........see? Even you made the assumption that if I was here that George was too.....not so. Now, I am not criticizing you for that but merely trying to point out that what someone thinks doesn't necessarily make it right.

As I have said before, I admire you and your work with the V8 in the Fiero - I have no complaint with you or your business and never have but you are right about one thing - this has gotten out of hand.

And, I speak for myself, not for George - and George will speak for himself and not for me.

It is unfortunate that this has happened and I have said several times that I do indeed hope that you two can work it out.

You are both important members of the Fiero community and it is a shame to see this go on and on........

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 06-18-2001).]

To tell you the truth, if I had someone who was speaking (or not speaking) for me like you are speaking (or not speaking) for George, I'd throw him out on his ear.

You have not helped George at all. And if you have been carrying on this flame war without his knowledge, you have done him a great dis-service.

If you are there to work on your car, I'd suggest you get to work on it and quit screwing things up for George any worse than they are.

I'll be real honest with you.... if you were sitting at my shop PC doing what you are doing right now, I'd never let you in the door again.

The only thing that could be worse than George sitting there next to you endorsing what you are doing is if you were doing it on your own in HIS shop, on HIS PC, when you were supposed to be there to do something else.

Like I said before, Enough Said.

Archie

Archie, I used to like you but you are beginning to get to me too -- you have no idea of the situation yet you feel the need to comment on it -- for your information, I am on my OWN computer and not his - I have tried throughout all of this to maintain a balance and now you are starting with me! I have said nothing against you OR the situation but have said only that I hope the two of you get it resolved -- my arguments with others are simply that they are misinformed and inaccurate and I feel that, in order to formulate a proper opinion, they should either be involved or have facts.......

Now, if I have said something to you that has angered you, I apologize for that. As I said, I have not taken anyone's "side" nor do I intend to do so.

Any decision to "throw me out on my ear" is certainly George's to make.

I am not on this forum to help George in this nor am I here to hurt him but, the choice to be here or not is mine to make.

Your suggestion to work on my own car has been noted. And, what I do in this shop and when I do it is between George and me not between you and me - the FACT is, you don't know where I am supposed to be nor what I am to be doing nor are you qualified to tell me.

and, THAT is enough said.........

quote Originally posted by tgowens: Any decision to "throw me out on my ear" is certainly George's to make..........

I'd suggest you go back and edit some of your posts before George sees them in the morning.

Archie

suggestion noted.......thank you for the advice. No need to though......

quote Originally posted by tgowens: TRiAD, "Wow...this says it all to me. What was the name of that shop again?" I am not sure what that says to ...And, just so you know, the shop being mentioned is not my shop. I run an entirely different business and have for many years.

Yeah, I wanted the name of YOUR shop. I want to be sure never to let my shadow pass through your door...

The verdict is IN.

The Fiero Shop DOES NOT have a License!

I called Sacramento and spoke to the assistant to the Chief of the Bureau of Automotive Repair PERSONALLY. No 800 numbers, no websites with disclaimers. I spoke to THE MAN (or woman in this case)!

The Fiero Shop apparently had a license issued last September and had it VOIDED shortly thereafter. Good eye Oreif. They could not discuss the reasons for the license being voided.

If you wish to confirm this, call The California Buruea of Automotive repair in Sacramento California on 1-916-255-3145 and ask for Susan.

Does THAT end the discussion about George's license Terry?

Can we move on NOW?

Hmmm... So the they came out to his shop, let him keep his license, but stamped VOID on it? That sounds like a rather strange way of doing things. Why wouldn't they just confiscate his license?

The watermark to prevent photocopying sounds much more credible to me.

As I mentioned above, none of this really matters to the point at hand... George offered to help Archie get his situation handled and I wouldn't mind seeing him given the chance to do that... He made that offer on this very public forum so... you see what I mean?

After that, then ya'll can start threads like this all over the forum if you want...

------------------

Tennessee Fiero Owners

It is a watermark.

Most documents, business checks, etc that want security for the purpose of thwarting counterfeiting have them as well, including ours.

So do/did our ND drivers licences, at least at one time. Scanned mine several years back when we first got a scanner and the word "ILLEGAL DUPLICATE" showed up. No matter how you worked it in regular light, you could not see those words on the licence though.

You know what, it took me forever to erase those words so I could give it to my younger twin adopted brother so he could go drinkin with me!

Well, time for me to sit back and continue watching this bad episode of "Days of Our Lives" with the sincere hope it gets better sometime before it goes off air.

------------------

Jsocha...

Are you following me from one bad thread to another? heheh

------------------

Tennessee Fiero Owners

But of course Songman!

"Excuse me <holding his recent creation on the sandwich plate and the knife that he now holds within his hands>, but do you have any Gray Poupons?"

------------------

quote Originally posted by Toddster: The verdict is IN. The Fiero Shop apparently had a license issued last September and had it VOIDED shortly thereafter. Good eye Oreif. They could not discuss the reasons for the license being voided.

Why would the state of California issue a paper VOIDED license?

Fierobear, I can't answer that. I am simply reporting what the State said and I listed the phone number to the Bureau of Automotive Repair. If you don't want to take my word for it that I called them then PLEASE, BY ALL MEANS, EVERYBODY, Call them and ask for yourselves. It seems to be the only way to resolve the issue. SOMEBODY PLEASE CALL AND LET US KNOW WHAT THEY TELL YOU.

You all have three ways of proving it to yourselves

1)call the Consumer Affairs hotline on 1-800-952-5210, then press 1-2-0-1-2 to get to an operator

OR

2)go to the Website: http://dca.ca.gov and click on "Automotive Repair", then click on "verify A License", then type in the Supposed license number AL213649 (from Terry's bogus license above) and you will get the answer "no record found"

OR

3) Call the Director of the Buruea of Automotive Repair in Sacramento directly on 1-916-255-3145 and they will tell you in person exactly what I have been saying since post number 1, The Fiero Shop does NOT have a valid license.

Also, The State Seal in Terry's scan is the wrong color. Clearly, this is a photocopy of a license with plenty of white out. not enough to fool Oreif however. Nice 20/20's, I never even noticed that.

Anyway, my fingers are getting tird of typing the obvious over an over again:

NO LICENSE!

from what I have read and heard from other Iw ouldn't hesitate to buy from you either. I t was a great thing that you cleared up this whole archie problem. you seem to know what you are doing. and like you could be a lot of help to alot of people. So thanks for being a help! :-)

Corinne

------------------
1984 Sweet Candy Apple red Fiero sport coupe :-D

OK, my name was mentioned, so it's time for me to enter.

I don't give a RATS ASS whether the Fiero Shop has a license, EPA inspection, or what have you. I've had enough experiences with other *licensed* shops to know that in many cases, a license doesn't mean dick.

Oh, you want some "facts"? ok, here we go:

When I first bought my 86 coupe, I had them adjust timing. They screwed it up.

When I got my Formula, it died 30 miles up the road. Pep Boys (the only shop I could find, I was 400 miles from home) wanted to charge me $500 to replace every sensor on the car. Too bad the real problem, the ignition module, wasn't on the list. Being a large national chain, I assume Pep Boys has the proper licenses. Lotta good they did me.

Most *licensed* shops and *licensed* mechanics don't give a s&%t about Fieros, hate to work on them, charge more for the trouble or just tell you "we don't work on those." When they do work on Fieros, they still screw them up. I'm sure you'd get 100 stories from others who have gotten botched repair jobs from *licensed* mechanics. I've read many stories of crappy mechanical work on the Fiero list.

It would be interesting to see if we could get all persons who have used the Fiero Shop to relate their experiences, bad and good. I'll bet the good outweighs the bad.

Has the Fiero Shop screwed things up? Yes. I personally know of 2 botched clutch jobs. They were done right after the shop opened. I wonder how many they've done right since. Probably more than 2.

I install satellite dishes, and have for around 7 years. I know I've botched 1 or 2, but I've also done probably 300 right. Everyone makes mistakes, noone is above it.

Has the Fiero Shop had bad mechanics? Yes. They've also had good ones, like the guy from Sequoia Institute, who was being professionally trained. We have severe labor shortage problems in the bay area and the cost of living is astronomical, so the fact that there is a Fiero-only shop at all is a minor miracle.

I'd take an unlicensed shop that gives a damn about Fieros over a licensed shop that doesn't any day of the week. George is far from perfect, but he seems to care about Fieros and has helped my with mine. I have 6, and he's worked on 4 or 5 of them.

A couple of weeks ago, my Formula wouldn't start. I called George and he suggested checking the wiring from the coil to the ignition module. I replaced it from my spare engine, and damn if the thing didn't fire up and has ever since. It would have taken me weeks of noodling, or never, to find that problem. It's not in my Factory Manual. I wonder what a licensed mechanic would have charged me? $500 for sensors?

The Fiero Shop is an asset to the Fiero community. It sure as hell has been to me. There have been many more positives versus negatives, as far as I can see.

As for the club newsletter, it doesn't matter that Todd quit, our board of directors was very unhappy with the content problems and voted to fire him, kick him out of the club and suspend publication until further notice. Those are the facts.

I don't like any of this. Todd, George, Terry, Bill (dxr_dad), Tony, and Robert are all friends and I've enjoyed their company. We all used to be able to get together, have a cold one and talk Fieros. Unfortunately, it didn't last. Too bad that we can't all get along, but I'm seeing too many agendas at work here. Me, I'm just happy to sit around and talk Fieros with my buddies, whoever they are and however flawed they (and I) may be.

[This message has been edited by fierobear (edited 06-18-2001).]

My pleasure Corrine. One thing I can't stand is a con. I see youare from OHIO. You might wat to contact NIFE (Northern Illinois Fiero Enthusiasts). it's your nearest major club and its a good one. they have a list of shops from Wisconsin to Penn that are fully qualified and licensed if you ever need quality car care. You can reach them on :
http://www.fierofocus.com

Good luck

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Fierobear....John? What happened to your other ID?

I was travelling, and didn't have my password with me.

quote I am disappointed in you...again. I just sold a sunroof and traded you a wing for a song and you come back here and spew S---?!

I get along with you just fine, Todd, until this subject comes up. I figure that we just agree to disagree. I'm not trying to dress anyone down, just give the facts as I see them. I have no agenda, and I don't want to fault anyone if it's not due. I mention the positives and negatives and I'm trying to be objective. I like you and George, and it kills me to see my friends at eachother's throats.

Frankly, I'm very surprised with the venom you direct at George. You don't like him, fine. He can be a pain in the ass, but so can most people from time to time. I'm willing to cut him a break. I'm willing to put aside my disagreement with you over the newsletter, because I enjoy your company. We talk Fieros, compare notes and trade parts. Cool by me.

quote first thing is first. Correct your mistake. You said: "...Todd quit, our board of directors was very unhappy with the content problems and voted to fire him, kick him out of the club and suspend publication until further notice..." That is pure crap and YOU KNOW IT! I was told by your predicessor Ray Dosdorian that the club voted to suspended me AND George for ONE meeting. THAT IS IT !!

Perhaps that's true, but I also distinctly remember hearing that the board voted to rescind your membership. I heard many unhappy comments about the newsletter content. Mary (our club treasurer) returned your check for lifetime membership. George was suspended, but he quit as well.

I had high hopes for the newsletter and confidence in you. It looked fantastic, you sold ads and I was happy. Then I read it. I (and the club's board) felt you overstepped.

You may have quit, a suspension may have been mentioned, but I definately remember the board talking about removal from the club. If I'm wrong, I'll apologize and stand corrected.

quote I still have Ray's email. Do I really need to post it here? Do I John? Smell what you're shoveling.

OK, go for it. I remember that Ray was mad enough to chew lead at the idea that you reworded his "President's Column", that the meaning was changed to support your position.

quote What can you possibly be thinking? Unless George is using your ID without your knowledge, I can't imagine what you are smoking. Set the record straight.

That's what I was attempting to do. Being that I consider both of you to be friends, I stated the facts, as I saw them, positive and negative. You brought up the club issue, mentioned that people should contact me if there is any doubt.

quote If you don't like this thread then don't participate. George Flamed me in his so-called apology. I am here to defend MY side of the story and I have done so flawlessly. no one needs you coming here and trying to stir the pot with CRAP that is not even related to the issue, and not even REMOTELY true.

Not remotely true? Wow, we've got a lot of truth floating around here and none of it seems to agree. I have no agenda, simply setting the record straight when my name and club are brought up. The name "John Szpara, club president", "Golden Gate Fieros (GGF)", "club newsletter" all were brought up, so now they are an issue to me.

Whether or not George's shop is licensed are not germain to the clutch question, but you brought that up. What's the difference? You don't need some special license to sell clutch parts.

quote Moreover, if you don't care that George is unlicensed, uninsured, under investigation by the consumer affiars board, in violation of pollution laws, and failing to back-up his warranties, then frankly, your opinion is not needed. The 99.99999999% of the rest of us Californians DO GIVE A "RATS A$$"!

Fine. Don't take your car there. I value his shop. He's building a business in a very expensive environment, so if some of his licenses are lacking, I'm not worried. Maybe he can't afford it. The proof is in the pudding, cars are getting fixed - including mine.

I only care about one test - does he repair my cars and have Fiero parts on hand or not. For me, the answer is yes.

I do business here in the bay area, and I know that the overhead is murder.

We've heard from lots of pissed off people, I'm just adding that I've had good experiences. I'm not allowed to do that?

Alright John,

I hear your sincerity so I won't push it. I accept your apology.

But we differ on one very important matter. You feel that George is a BSer and a pain but that you are willing to tolerate that. OK, fine.

I was too: For 3 years I sat at the same table as you and talked Fieros over a beer and pizza and listened to George's Crap.

When I got my Contractor's license George had to tell everybody that he was a contractor once. I checked, He never had a contractor's licence in California. Do I give a damn? No. Why, because we were just a bunch of guys shootin' the s--- over a beer.

It was not hurting anyone.

BUT....the minute George started his business the BS MUST stop. We are talking about taking people's confidence in hand and taking their money.

You say you don't care if George is licenced or insured. Would you feel that way if his shop burned to the ground with your car in it? Who knows, maybe you would. You seem to be a pretty accomodating person where George is concerned.

But what about some young lady who knows nothing of cars. Suppose it was her car that got toasted in George's fire-trap? What then?

There is a reason for licenses, insurance, and EPA inspections, John. I said MANY MANY posts ago that if George Got his act together I'd do exactly what he wants, leave him alone. But he simply flat refuses to do it!!!

I can't tell you how many times I went over to his place in Hayward and suggested that he spend just $3 per pan for drip trays to put under the cars. $3!!! I must have told him to do it 10 times. George didn't do it for one simple reason: Geroge does not care!

He obviously does not care to resolve his problem with Archie, He obviously cares nothing for the environment. So why should someone who relies on their car for their daily transportation think that George will care about doing a professional job on their car?

And even if he DID care, he isn't qualified. I have forgotten more about Fieros than George will ever know. Despite THIS, I don't set myself up as some sort of expert like George trys to do. Caring about Fieros and caring about people are two different things.

I too run a business in the Bay Area so I appreciate the fact that is is expensive to live here. But I have several mechanics, RIGHT HERE IN LITTLE OLE' MORGAN HILL, that I regularly trust with my Fieros. Why? Because they care about ME! And if they screw-up, I'll be compensated!

That won't happen with George. So you, and other people, are free to use George's shop all you like as long as you know the facts. I'm not telling anyone here to not go to George. I'm telling them that if they do, they should know the truth, and not buy the advertising BS that George is so famous for.

And the truth remains:

He's unlicenced, uninsured, and unqualified.

George, fix your problems and I'll shut up. I Promise! Don't fix them, and I'll never stop trying to sound the warning.