PS: I would never use synthetic for new engine break-in, the rings aren't going to cut, it's too good a lubricator. Always use organic oil, then switch!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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03:13 PM
watts Member
Posts: 3256 From: Coaldale, AB, Canada Registered: Aug 2001
Originally posted by artherd: I would never use synthetic for new engine break-in, the rings aren't going to cut, it's too good a lubricator. Always use organic oil, then switch!
I'll second that - heck, I'll make scans out of my A&P books that'll back up that statement!
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03:19 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Now you guys got me second guessing again..... It is my understanding that the y-bodies come with synthetic straight from the factory. I don't know how many times this has been debated over on ls1.com. Over there the majority say syn. for the LS1 not sure why. It did have organic for the first 50 miles. Then it got the synthetic. A&P too huh... Me too. I do remember in the aircraft mechanics power plant book or AC43-13. Had a break in recommendation, But it wasn't regular oil either it was made especially for break in.( I could be wrong it has been at least 10 years since I have opened either of those books) But the jugs on most aircraft engines are giant. So that might have something to do with it. The oil also stays cooler for they are dry sump. It is also my understanding that the oiling problem on the LS1's happens more on organic than synthetic. I guess I will have to go back over there and open the debate again. I put about 200 miles since the swap and it hasn't used any oil which is a little surprising to me. Well I am getting pretty far off topic so I will stop rambling LOL
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03:44 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Originally posted by artherd: PS: I would never use synthetic for new engine break-in, the rings aren't going to cut, it's too good a lubricator. Always use organic oil, then switch!
Best! Ben.
I totally agree.
Street & Performance supplied this engine and they recommended break-in on Fossel and then switch to the fake oil.
We had about 300 miles on the break-in oil and then switched to Mobil 1.
IMHO, rings just will not seat on plastic oil.
Archie
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05:41 PM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
lol 'fake' oil, I'm going to start calling it that )
Many engines are coming from the factory with synthetic, HOWEVER, those same engines are run on a dyno for about 500miles and come PRE-BROKEN-IN!
I don't know specifically about the LS1, but most of this is done with organic oil, and the synthetic put in for delivery (and the rest of the car's life.)
'fake' oil is fabalous stuff, Mobil-1 even has a MIL- part number! It's actually so darn good, that if used in break-in, the motor won't wear enough )
LS1Swap: I'd go back to an organic for the next 500miles or so, then drop some 'fake oil' in and stand on the throttle ) (assuming your motor was new or you installed new parts. If it's been run, even a little, you're likely fine.)
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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08:40 PM
Sep 23rd, 2002
jstricker Member
Posts: 12956 From: Russell, KS USA Registered: Apr 2002
Originally posted by LS1swap: Me too. I do remember in the aircraft mechanics power plant book or AC43-13. Had a break in recommendation, But it wasn't regular oil either it was made especially for break in.
Most of the time for A/C engines, mineral oil is recommended. That's probably what you're thinking of.
quote
The oil also stays cooler for they are dry sump.
Very few horizontal opposed A/C engines are dry sump unless they're acro engines. Almost all are wet sump.
Originally posted by LS1swap: Now you guys got me second guessing again..... It is my understanding that the y-bodies come with synthetic straight from the factory. I don't know how many times this has been debated over on ls1.com. Over there the majority say syn. for the LS1 not sure why. It did have organic for the first 50 miles. Then it got the synthetic. A&P too huh... Me too. I do remember in the aircraft mechanics power plant book or AC43-13. Had a break in recommendation, But it wasn't regular oil either it was made especially for break in.( I could be wrong it has been at least 10 years since I have opened either of those books) But the jugs on most aircraft engines are giant. So that might have something to do with it. The oil also stays cooler for they are dry sump. It is also my understanding that the oiling problem on the LS1's happens more on organic than synthetic. I guess I will have to go back over there and open the debate again. I put about 200 miles since the swap and it hasn't used any oil which is a little surprising to me. Well I am getting pretty far off topic so I will stop rambling LOL
According to interviews with Pat Hill and others of the Corvette design team, the LS1 and LS6 have tighter tolerances and special rings, especially the newer ones MY 01 and up. Synthetic is run from the get go. (delivery) Whether they use different oil during break in at the factory I couldn't say.
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[This message has been edited by godalex (edited 09-23-2002).]
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10:11 AM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
I guess I will error on the side of caution I will switch back to organic. It did break in for the first 50 miles on organic. Then it got synthetic (Mobile one) this is the first engine that I have ever used synthetic on. Before I have always used organic. I got 218,000 on my SE and 240,000 ( I travel allot) on my pick up so it cant be that bad. I kind of thought the same myself about it, it was just there was so much hype about switching to mobile one as soon as possible that I bought into it. Not trying to steel your thread Dave... Your car looks great good luck!
PS. It has been 10 years since I have touched an aircraft engine, so I could be wrong, but I could have swore the lycomings we had in the shop were dry sump... Maybe it was the radial I was thinking of. Maybe my next swap should be a PT-6 LOL
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07:23 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
Well, so long as you started it with organic, you'll be doing allright. I would put about 500miles just to be safe though, then switch to 'fake' for good
Is your LS1 a new crate motor?
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
I'm just getting caught up from the last four days, and what a ride it's been.
I am still using dinosaur juice until I get to 2000 miles, then I'm switching to Mobil 1 based on the recommendation I got from Sallee Chevrolet. The beast, whose official name is Chrysalis, is up to about 1300 miles now. And please, enough of the oil discussion. Thanks.
Will is correct about the color, it is NOT Admiral Blue as I stated before, it is 2002 Corvette Electron Blue. You have to see it in person to have a real appreciation for it. It is the most beautiful shade of blue I've ever seen and is absolutely breathtaking on this car. It is a very specific mix of colors and flake powders that has a subtle pearlescent quality to it in spite of being a two-stage paint. I am going to use my limited photographic skills to try to get a nice shot of it in beauty light (dusk/dawn) sometime in the next few days, then scan it in to post here.
The pic that Archie took was of a very burned out Dave, who hadn't showered in two days nor shaved in a week and was really exhausted from the frantic work of getting this car together on a deadline. Archie is probably pretty tired out too, and many thanks to him and his employees for their help and hard work getting the car together in time. It was body-off painted in just five days, and I'd also like to thank Steve of Lakemoor Bodyworks for his excellent paintwork. We'd literally finished putting the body and interior together just seconds before that picture was snapped. It is more a relief than anything else that the car actually came together so well. I'll dig up some "before" pics of it that you won't believe.
Dave
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02:15 AM
Sep 25th, 2002
LT1Guy Member
Posts: 21 From: Barnesville GA USA Registered: Sep 2002
BTW, the car is officially a KICK to drive. The short throw SPEC clutch is more of an on/off switch than anything else.
Archie
Thats been my experience with this clutch, which I have installed in a few LS1 F-bodies, and with the McLeod Street Twin in my 97 Camaro SS. I love it!
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01:24 PM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
Originally posted by artherd: Well, so long as you started it with organic, you'll be doing allright. I would put about 500miles just to be safe though, then switch to 'fake' for good
Thanks for posting the video, it truely shows how 'bad a$$' these little cars can get!!! Everybody should keep in mind that the launch he did was pretty conservative, there's a little more hiding under there!
That's exactly what I was thinking. He was barely touching that pedal there. I love the sound though. Can't get enough of it. I love it so much that I ripped out the audio, made a .wav file out of it and made it my Windoze starting sound! Rock On!!!
quote
Originally posted by California Kid: Hey....that sounds awefully familiar!!!
Thanks for posting the video, it truely shows how 'bad a$$' these little cars can get!!! Everybody should keep in mind that the launch he did was pretty conservative, there's a little more hiding under there!
After watching those videos I just realized its time to get rid of the iron duke and save up some $$$$ for a v-8. Crazydave your car is awesome congrats on it.
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12:05 AM
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Coilover/Koni time dude! You're pulling those fronts clear to the shock's maximum extend! ;D
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Go Koni (and held coilover for spring), they're worth every penny twice over, because you can setup the car *any* way you like with them!
Car looks totally nutty-quick! Hope you bought a neck brace! I'm impressed with how well it hooks too. Sounds incredible too!
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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03:30 PM
scrotum_pat Member
Posts: 737 From: Eldridge,Iowa,USA Registered: Feb 2002
Oh my goodness!!!!! That scared the crap outta me and im infront of a comp, I have a massive grin right now. I dont know if I can wait another year for my upgrade.
I'm currently up in New Jersey and am up to about 1600 miles. The clutch doesn't seem to get any smoother as time passes, but I have been in a couple of rush-hour jams today on I-95 and it wasn't unmanageable, it just gave me some time to try to find a technique to engage it smoothly. I still haven't really found one other than revving to about 2k while releasing the pedal. I prefer to keep engagement revs to about 1200, but it shudders at anything under 1500.
Thanks to you guys for converting the videos over. Glad everyone's enjoying them. I still haven't seen them myself, but at least I'm one step closer and can pass it along to others who would like to see. Now I just need a fast PC with a fast 'net connection!
Suspension-wise, this is an all-stock '88 GT except that I replaced the shocks with GR-2s before bringing the car to Archie and all suspension bushings, front and rear, have been replaced with Prothane Polys. It is about as firm as I can stand, and substantially stiffer than my stock silver car with the same shocks. There's a lot of torque to lift the front end up, no doubt, but I've done about all I'm willing to do, any rougher and it'll have the ride quality of a go-kart. I don't want this to be a car I don't want to drive because the ride is too harsh. You've gotta strike the right balance, and I have neither the time, the money nor the inclination to re-engineer what GM spent a boatload on already. The car's handling is neutral right now, and has a very balanced feel that inspires confidence. The ride height is right for the wheel/tire combo too, so why should I mess with it? I dunno how long you guys have been tinkering with cars, but one thing I learned pretty quickly is that by changing one small thing you usually screw up two or three other things.
Dave
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08:50 PM
LS1swap Member
Posts: 1181 From: McHenry,IL.USA Registered: Jan 2001
Hey Dave there is a Northern IL. Mod fest being planned in general chat. If you make it back on time bring the car. I am sure every one would like to see it.
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09:11 PM
PFF
System Bot
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Hey Dave, I actually noticed my ride got BETTER going to the Konis (yeah. Weird, I know.)
KYBs have the SAME damping on compression as rebound... not very good. Infact, just sloppy. They start with a "k" and have a little band across 'em, so people automatically think they're the bee's knees and they've saves SO much over the Konis. They're wrong.
The Koni really are great stuff, and I *highly* recomend them.
I dialy my car with 225/40/18 fronts 30miles each way, and I love it.
Best! Ben.
quote
Originally posted by crazyd: I'm currently up in New Jersey and am up to about 1600 miles. The clutch doesn't seem to get any smoother as time passes, but I have been in a couple of rush-hour jams today on I-95 and it wasn't unmanageable, it just gave me some time to try to find a technique to engage it smoothly. I still haven't really found one other than revving to about 2k while releasing the pedal. I prefer to keep engagement revs to about 1200, but it shudders at anything under 1500.
Thanks to you guys for converting the videos over. Glad everyone's enjoying them. I still haven't seen them myself, but at least I'm one step closer and can pass it along to others who would like to see. Now I just need a fast PC with a fast 'net connection!
Suspension-wise, this is an all-stock '88 GT except that I replaced the shocks with GR-2s before bringing the car to Archie and all suspension bushings, front and rear, have been replaced with Prothane Polys. It is about as firm as I can stand, and substantially stiffer than my stock silver car with the same shocks. There's a lot of torque to lift the front end up, no doubt, but I've done about all I'm willing to do, any rougher and it'll have the ride quality of a go-kart. I don't want this to be a car I don't want to drive because the ride is too harsh. You've gotta strike the right balance, and I have neither the time, the money nor the inclination to re-engineer what GM spent a boatload on already. The car's handling is neutral right now, and has a very balanced feel that inspires confidence. The ride height is right for the wheel/tire combo too, so why should I mess with it? I dunno how long you guys have been tinkering with cars, but one thing I learned pretty quickly is that by changing one small thing you usually screw up two or three other things.
Dave
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
Originally posted by artherd: KYBs have the SAME damping on compression as rebound... not very good. Infact, just sloppy. They start with a "k" and have a little band across 'em, so people automatically think they're the bee's knees and they've saves SO much over the Konis. They're wrong.
The Koni really are great stuff, and I *highly* recomend them.
I daily my car with 225/40/18 fronts 30miles each way, and I love it.
Actually I just wanted an OEM replacement for the crappy Monroes that some previous owner had installed, and were seized up so badly that I could barely extend the cylinder even with vise-grips. I would prefer a set of Bilsteins, but I don't know if they make an '88 GT replacement. Has anyone tried this?
Dave
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11:01 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14228 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
If you want to do a little fabricating, you might try raising the forward pivot of the trailing arm on your rear suspension 2-4 inches. This will increase your anti-squat and reduce front end lift.
You might want to look into picking up a set for a mid '80s GN, at least for the front. I know that Bilstein makes them for the GN, and other makes of shocks for the GN will fit the front of the '88 with a very small amount of grinding on the opening in the lower control arm. I currently have GN spec shocks on the front of my Formula.
[This message has been edited by Wannabe (edited 09-27-2002).]
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06:31 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Hey Dave, everyone seems a bit more concerned about your suspension than you are...... "You might want to consider" buying a stock 6 banger and having me pull out that ugly overpowered 430HP Fuel Injected SBC engine and put the 6 in for you.
I'll do the labor for free, if I get to keep all the old parts.
Archie
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07:47 PM
Sep 28th, 2002
artherd Member
Posts: 4159 From: Petaluma, CA. USA Registered: Apr 2001
Will, with the knuckle currently sitting below the front pivoit, wouldn't decreaseing this past the point of paralell actually give more 'squat' on accell? Or is it late and I've got it backwards?
Best! Ben.
------------------ Ben Cannon 88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives" 88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"
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05:28 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14228 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by artherd: Lol, good luck catching him to ask! ;D
Will, with the knuckle currently sitting below the front pivoit, wouldn't decreaseing this past the point of paralell actually give more 'squat' on accell? Or is it late and I've got it backwards?
Best! Ben.
Raising the forward pivot will move the side view instant center and put the vector from it to the contact patch closer to the car's CG, the definition of increasing anti-squat.
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11:04 AM
GTFiero1 Member
Posts: 6508 From: Camden County NJ Registered: Sep 2001
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