Originally posted by JSocha: I know many "good" parents/families that "HAVE" shown their kids and have worked on setting the boundaries, reinforced them to no end, if not prayed for them and they still became little deviants.
On the other hand, I also do know many "bad" parents/families (you know the druggies/drunks/partiers... 50/50 ratio here ) where some have not done the above and if I had my choice of babysitting their kids, I would be more then willing to babysit them or adopt them as my kids, because they have more manners, common sense then alot of kids supposedly in a good upbringing.
Yes, enviromental influences and other things can and may shape and/or mold our personalities. However, we are who we are and believe we are born with what our personality disposition will eventually be. Much like any other mammel/animal. I believe strongly we are born with our predisposition already molded into our fabric.
[b]NEXT![/B]
This is a fact I have also observed and know to be true.
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01:50 PM
Voytek Member
Posts: 1924 From: Calgary, Alberta, Canada Registered: Jan 2001
Originally posted by maryjane: Some will differ with my opinion on this subject of never having been offered the religious teachings. We (all mankind) are God's children. The bible teaches that Jesus suffers the little children, that is, the innocents of the world. If a person has never had the opportunity, he has not had the choice to make, thus has not rejected the teachings or beliefs. I believe then, that these untaught or unreached are suffered, just as the little children are, as they are like little children in God's eyes. In New Guinea and South America, there are undoubtedly peoples who, to this day have never been approached by missionaries or any other Christian teachers. Tho 'heathen', I believe they would fall in this catagory, just as a one yr old child would. Triad, I don't think anyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong- it is an acquired or taught attribute. Ever been around a two yr old? Fun ain't it?
Well said, on all points.
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The kids you mentioned clearly simply haven't been shown their boundaries properly
That's right Triad. You said it yourself - they haven't beeen SHOWN their boundaries, i.e. their ENVIRONMENT hasn't taught them.
You are somewhat contradicting your positions here. If you believe that every human is born with a knowledge of boundaries, than what is the point of the Bible? Would we even need the bible? I mean, we all have our concience already predetermined and not constructed by the environment, right?
I'm being a devil's advocate. Like maryjane said:
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If you find yourself in an inviroment where something is deemed acceptable, or even the norm, it is probably just a matter of time before you give in
. You can't argue this one.
Going back to ****, just because one million people who read **** will not turn into sex offenders, doesn't mean that one of them won't. Even if one person is influenced enough to commit a crime, it is wrong.
You all (who have confessed to have 'peeked' at **** ) are saying: 'look at me, and I'm just as normal as the next guy'.
I'll tell you a short story. I have a friend (former friend, I guess) who is currently in custody in Vancouver, B.C. awaiting a trial for murdering a 10 year old girl.
This is as real as it gets - he was arrested last November after one of the biggest manhunts ever in Vancouver. This is a guy that I have known for a few years. I have pictures with him at a beach or cruisin in his low rider a couple years back.
I've known him quite well. I know he enjoyed a healthy (oxymoron?) dose of **** magazines, videos and made numerous comments regarding sex and young women (girls? - never really defined it).
Does this mean he IS the one who killed the girl? No, not necessarily, although they haven't arrested anyone else in the last 12 months, or granted him bail.
Does this mean that the **** contributed to the crime? No, not necessarily. But then again, can anyone say for sure that it didn't?
Just a thought.
[This message has been edited by Voytek (edited 12-21-2001).]
Originally posted by Voytek: ....You are somewhat contradicting your positions here. If you believe that every human is born with a knowledge of boundaries, than what is the point of the Bible? Would we even need the bible? I mean, we all have our concience already predetermined and not constructed by the environment, right?...
Not at all. I did say we are born with a conscience, I also said we have to CHOOSE to follow it. MANY people make the decision NOT to at a VERY early age.
I also have noticed otherwise good people with terror children, but I have also noticed those are generally the parents who are MUCH more lenient with those children.
But, I have noticed (maybe once or twice, tops) good kids with absolutely horrible parents.
The only thing I can think of here is the kids are probably too scared of their parents to act up. Not because their parents have taught them clear boundaries, but seeing mommy and daddy smoking crack and beating eachother (and/or you) has GOT to have an effect. Some kids will get mean, others will hide within themselves.
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03:28 PM
JSocha Member
Posts: 3522 From: Felton, MN, USA Registered: Apr 2001
Same argument could alternatly be said of those reading and/or following the bible Voytek. Alternate downside.
For example: The David Koresh's (sp?) or Jim Jones's of the world; priests molesting kids; nuns molesting kids; people who are firm followers of the teaching of the bible only to commit crime on a regular basis or other "immoral" acts; Al Capone, etc....
what? the harry potter debat on the second page? WTF goin o here?...
------------------ '88 coupe, 5 speed, custome paint job "I! have a job!!!" Have you seen my website yet? http://www.geocities.com/lithiumeffects/pheageysfiero/ Killed: '97 civic CS auto; Killed by: '94 Civic Ex, '96 Camery LX Vandalised: 2 time (in 2 days).
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09:19 AM
avengador1 Member
Posts: 35467 From: Orlando, Florida Registered: Oct 2001
Originally posted by TRiAD: Not at all. I did say we are born with a conscience, I also said we have to CHOOSE to follow it. MANY people make the decision NOT to at a VERY early age.
I also have noticed otherwise good people with terror children, but I have also noticed those are generally the parents who are MUCH more lenient with those children.
But, I have noticed (maybe once or twice, tops) good kids with absolutely horrible parents.
The only thing I can think of here is the kids are probably too scared of their parents to act up. Not because their parents have taught them clear boundaries, but seeing mommy and daddy smoking crack and beating eachother (and/or you) has GOT to have an effect. Some kids will get mean, others will hide within themselves.
SEEN a lot of hippys kids rebel by becomeing DOC or lawyers or CPA's or cops ALLSO seen alot of preachers daughters go wilded and become strippers and worse. NO one has a fool proof way or only rasing good kids. BUT FUNDIE's who prey on kids and do not educate or get them medical help BELONG IN OR UNDER THE JAIL sames as the one's who beat their kids. AND I MEAN BEAT NOT SPANK or slap.
LOCAL CHRISTIAN NUTS want to refight gayrights NOW IN 2001 IDIoT's want to bash the few tourest we have coming to SOUTH BEACH NOW mayor and local political leaders are afraid the NUTS will scare off the gays. ANNITA BRIANT WAR round 3 comming sooon. AND TOTALY BY CHRISTIANS AND ONLY CHRISTIANS
TRIAD funny when I quote old T you say thats only for jews THEN YOU QOUTE same LAWS about **** WTF is UP with that.
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
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12:20 AM
CoryFiero Member
Posts: 4341 From: Charleston, SC Registered: Oct 2001
Originally posted by ray b: ...BUT FUNDIE's who prey on kids and do not educate or get them medical help BELONG IN OR UNDER THE JAIL sames as the one's who beat their kids. AND I MEAN BEAT NOT SPANK or slap.
Ray, your biased and uneducated slander of people you know obviously nothing about is nothing short of criminal. I cannot for the life of me understand why you chose to pollute a nice forum like this, or why in hell Cliff tolerates you.
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TRIAD funny when I quote old T you say thats only for jews THEN YOU QOUTE same LAWS about **** WTF is UP with that.
You sir, are a liar. If you want to argue that point, do you care to explain what you think you're talking about, or are you going to remain vague and ambiguous (as always) in a futile attempt to hide your ignorance? Once again, only slander from Ray, with no explanation of what he thinks he's talking about, much less any referance of proof.
Again, I can't understand why Cliff forces us to endure your dribble. You're clearly only here to slander and attempt to inflame. You're nothing more than a troll.
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03:04 AM
dennis_6 Member
Posts: 7196 From: between here and there Registered: Aug 2001
Voytek - The point of the Bible is too show that none of us are perfect and we need God. Without the Bible as you said we go look at me I am just as normal as the other guy.
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05:31 AM
PFF
System Bot
Master_Sushi Member
Posts: 1873 From: Oakville, ON Registered: Apr 2000
Originally posted by TRiAD: You sir, are a liar. If you want to argue that point, do you care to explain what you think you're talking about, or are you going to remain vague and ambiguous (as always) in a futile attempt to hide your ignorance? Once again, only slander from Ray, with no explanation of what he thinks he's talking about, much less any referance of proof.
Again, I can't understand why Cliff forces us to endure your dribble. You're clearly only here to slander and attempt to inflame. You're nothing more than a troll.
i was talking about do not allow a witch to live and you said thats just for old jews laws not us christians NOW.then you say about ****
[More of the same laws; Leviticus 18 is all about "unlawful" or "forbidden" sexual relations. They include;
* close relatives, * mother, * father's wife (not always the person's mother), * sister of any kind (including in-law), * granddaughter, * aunt, * daughter in-law, * "do not have relations with both a woman and her daughter, or her granddaughter", * wife's sister while your wife is living, * during menstrual cycle, * neighbor's wife, * "Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech" (not sure the meaning of this one), * same sex "for that is detestable", * animals...]
THEN YOU SAY thats why **** is bad and I guess gays too from the last part!!!! IS NOT THAT JUST FOR OLD JEWS TOOOO?????? or just some laws and not others WHO PICKS THEM as what to go by now??????
on 12-14 at 11:23 TRIAD SAID "Ray, in Exodus, Moses is relaying the laws God gave the Israelites for the Israelites amoungst themselves alone. It also says rapists of virgins must pay the "bride-price" and marry them, and that people raping animals should be destroyed, and if you loan money to a friend in need, do not charge interest, and people who sacrifice to other gods should be destroyed...etc, etc, etc...Anyway, that's only ONE, where's your "MANY" references to destroying witches? Hmm?
At any rate, these were SOCIAL laws to be applied AMOUNG THE ISRAELITES. This had NOTHING to do with "outsiders"" END OF 12-14 TRIAD QUOTE
SO WHO LIED TRIAD??????????????????????? ABOUT WHAT??????????????????????????????
INTERESTING that you still want to ban ME just because you do not LIKE THE TRUTH!!!! THATS VERY CHRISTIAN OF YOU SOS same as the past records of BURN THE HERITIC.
SO IF a man DOES NOT RESPECT THE SABBATH I CAN KILL HIM LIKE THE GOOD BOOK SAID???? WILL YOU HELP????? OR I CAN SELL MY KID AS A SLAVE AS LONG AS ITIS TO A BELIVER[ thats in the book tooooo]
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 12-30-2001).]
Originally posted by ray b: ...SO IF a man DOES NOT RESPECT THE SABBATH I CAN KILL HIM LIKE THE GOOD BOOK SAID???? WILL YOU HELP????? OR I CAN SELL MY KID AS A SLAVE AS LONG AS ITIS TO A BELIVER[ thats in the book tooooo]
It does not say anywhere that a man not respecting the Sabbath is to be killed, or that it's legal to sell your children into slavery, as long as it's to other believers. If you want to hold that it does; show reference, and please quit spouting useless thoughts on what is in there and what is not without reference.
As for your other stuff, people asked me my perspective from a Biblical point of view of ****. Of course I give Biblical laws to explain my position; that was the question posed.
You are wrong about something else, when I said the commandments were for the Israelites only (God's people) and not for "outsiders", I did NOT say they weren't for US today. These same commandments hold for ANYONE wanting to call themselves a Christian. This includes those about treating "outsiders" with nothing but grace, Ray...this means no taking over the world, no burning heritics, non of your evil claims. Now, these are to be tempered with the grace Christ gave us...no more "eye for an eye" and so forth, which therefore disavows execution of people for beastiality, idolatry, and so-on.
Like I said before, you refuse to learn, you refuse to see the truth, you're comfortable with your paranoid dilusions, so why bother asking any more questions? You ask the same questions, I give the same answers (WITH reference), and yet, you continue to believe your conspiracy theorist websites, so quit asking already...you know the real answers and you don't want to face them.
As for me wanting you banned Ray, it has nothing to do with our difference of opinion. MANY people in this thread disagreed with my point here and there, did I ask Cliff to ban them? No. Ray, it's your attitude, and th fact that you intentionally try to inflame otherwise intelligent conversation, and intentionally insult people by typing in jibberish, even though ALL of us have seen your more "lucid" posts in other threads.
What it comes down to, Ray, is that you're about as insufferable as anyone I've ever met on ANY forum, and you're nothing more than a troll. Cliff has a policy (that I'm not sure why he rarely upholds) about slander, flaming posts, and trolls. He asks us only to make an attempt to respect eachother as people, even if we can't respect each other's views. This is no problem for the rest of us, but you continue to attempt to instigate trouble, and Cliff continues to let you.
It's a real shame, and a major detriment to our society here on his forum.
Originally posted by TRiAD: It does not say anywhere that a man not respecting the Sabbath is to be killed, or that it's legal to sell your children into slavery, as long as it's to other believers. If you want to hold that it does; show reference, and please quit spouting useless thoughts on what is in there and what is not without reference.
As for your other stuff, people asked me my perspective from a Biblical point of view of ****. Of course I give Biblical laws to explain my position; that was the question posed.
You are wrong about something else, when I said the commandments were for the Israelites only (God's people) and not for "outsiders", I did NOT say they weren't for US today. These same commandments hold for ANYONE wanting to call themselves a Christian. This includes those about treating "outsiders" with nothing but grace, Ray...this means no taking over the world, no burning heritics, non of your evil claims. Now, these are to be tempered with the grace Christ gave us...no more "eye for an eye" and so forth, which therefore disavows execution of people for beastiality, idolatry, and so-on.
Like I said before, you refuse to learn, you refuse to see the truth, you're comfortable with your paranoid dilusions, so why bother asking any more questions? You ask the same questions, I give the same answers (WITH reference), and yet, you continue to believe your conspiracy theorist websites, so quit asking already...you know the real answers and you don't want to face them.
As for me wanting you banned Ray, it has nothing to do with our difference of opinion. MANY people in this thread disagreed with my point here and there, did I ask Cliff to ban them? No. Ray, it's your attitude, and th fact that you intentionally try to inflame otherwise intelligent conversation, and intentionally insult people by typing in jibberish, even though ALL of us have seen your more "lucid" posts in other threads.
What it comes down to, Ray, is that you're about as insufferable as anyone I've ever met on ANY forum, and you're nothing more than a troll. Cliff has a policy (that I'm not sure why he rarely upholds) about slander, flaming posts, and trolls. He asks us only to make an attempt to respect eachother as people, even if we can't respect each other's views. This is no problem for the rest of us, but you continue to attempt to instigate trouble, and Cliff continues to let you.
It's a real shame, and a major detriment to our society here on his forum.
BS the way you shift in and out of GODS LAWS AT YOUR WHIM NUMBERS 15 32 to 36 is about killing sabbath brakers{DO YOU READ YOUR BIBLE????} ALLSO SEE Deuteronomy 13 about killing deamers FOR THE SALE OF KIDS RULE LOOK IT UP YOUR SELF IT IS IN THE BIBLE, IN THE LAWS THE BIBLE IS FULL OF ODD EVIL IDEAS no need for ME to make up anything IT IS IN THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!! and is not false wittness a SIN OF FIRST RANK one of 10 C, so why do you do that to ME, over and over and over in this very thread!!!
Originally posted by ray b: BS the way you shift in and out of GODS LAWS AT YOUR WHIM
I don't. You simply didn't understand the context. Maybe because you refuse to?
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NUMBERS 15 32 to 36 is about killing sabbath brakers{DO YOU READ YOUR BIBLE????}
Personal attacks...nice. BTW, you're right. Back in Numbers, there was a commandment to stone sabbath-breakers. My bad. It still falls under Christ's laws given under grace, and should not be followed anymore. People (including you, I believe) have arguesd the simplicity of the Israelites, and how they apparently required laws that we, as a more civilized people no longer require.
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ALLSO SEE Deuteronomy 13 about killing deamers
Dude, did you read this? This isn't simple idolators, this is false prophets and people trying to specifically lead Israelites away from God. This means it's a defense against aggressors. It's also something meant only for the time. That's right, now I said it. You see, there's some laws in the OT that are definitely still for today, and others (usually drastic and/or violent) that are clearly not. Christ did not abolish the law, but He "perfected" it. He showed us grace, love and forgiveness.
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FOR THE SALE OF KIDS RULE LOOK IT UP YOUR SELF IT IS IN THE BIBLE, IN THE LAWS THE BIBLE IS FULL OF ODD EVIL IDEAS no need for ME to make up anything IT IS IN THE BOOK!!!!!!!!!!
Against my better judgement, I attempted to give you the benefit of the doubt. I searched under every form of "child" "sell" and "slave"...and you're making things up again. I cannot find it anywhere, or anything resembling it. Face it, you never read this in the Bible (because you've apparently never read it directly), you heard it on one of your "websites". If you want to challenge this, you must provide reference.
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and is not false wittness a SIN OF FIRST RANK one of 10 C, so why do you do that to ME, over and over and over in this very thread!!!
Jesus said all sins are equal. At any rate, "giving false witness" is lying about someone, and I have not done this about you, or anyone else here. You, however just slandered me. Again. Thanks man, I can feel the love.
Maryjane? "Triad, please define troll." Here you go.
"Troll;(netiquitte) One who instigates slanderous and/or intentionally inflamitory conversation (flames, flame wars) on public and/or private internet forums. This person has no intent except to cause misunderstanding and argument, and offers no useful benefit to the forum. This person therefore also shows no usefullness to his or her existance on said forum.
See parasite."
I just made this up, so ther may be better out there, but basically, you can substitute the entire description with; "See RayB and/or edsB52"
Originally posted by TRiAD: Jesus said all sins are equal. At any rate, "giving false witness" is lying about someone, and I have not done this about you, or anyone else here. You, however just slandered me. Again. Thanks man, I can feel the love.
Maryjane? "Triad, please define troll." Here you go.
[b]"Troll;(netiquitte) One who instigates slanderous and/or intentionally inflamitory conversation (flames, flame wars) on public and/or private internet forums. This person has no intent except to cause misunderstanding and argument, and offers no useful benefit to the forum. This person therefore also shows no usefullness to his or her existance on said forum.
See parasite."
I just made this up, so ther may be better out there, but basically, you can substitute the entire description with; "See RayB and/or edsB52"[/B]
EXODUS 21 - 7 WHEN A MAN SELLS A DAUGHTER AS A SLAVE,SHE SHALL NOT GO OUT AS THE MALE SLAVES DO.ect. AND DO NOT SELL TO OTHERS,later in verce 21
AND J C SAID "I MAKE NO PART OF THE LAW PASS AWAY"
SAUL PAUL REPEALED THE LAW IN FIRST OF MANY PROTESTANTS/REVISIONS BUT NEVER REALY SAID WHAT PARTS
------------------ Question wonder and be wierd
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05:04 PM
Joe Torma Member
Posts: 3485 From: Hillsborough, NJ USA Registered: Jul 2001
Originally posted by ray b: EXODUS 21 - 7 WHEN A MAN SELLS A DAUGHTER AS A SLAVE,SHE SHALL NOT GO OUT AS THE MALE SLAVES DO.ect. AND DO NOT SELL TO OTHERS,later in verce 21
Wow, Ray. You just impeached yourself. READ THE WHOLE SECTION! "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as manservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money."
You see Ray, back then, they blurred the lines of "selling into slavery" with marriage. It was the custom of the time, and was nothing that was commanded from God. It was man's custom, and was also followed by NON Israelites. This is why you have problems understanding; you find one sentance you think supports you, and make no effort to learn more about it.
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AND J C SAID "I MAKE NO PART OF THE LAW PASS AWAY"
Right. He also said "I give you a new law. Love your enemies..." Like I said, He didn't repeal the old, but He did amend it, and taught us to live in grace and forgiveness.
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SAUL PAUL REPEALED THE LAW IN FIRST OF MANY PROTESTANTS/REVISIONS BUT NEVER REALY SAID WHAT PARTS
You keep stating this, but cannot give any proof. How's about we try this again; I won't make statements I can't show reference for, and you won't either. MMkay?
No, you won't agree to that. It would impede your trolling capacity.
Triad- A Troll: By your definition, we are all guilty of this at one time or another. Both you & Ray need to understand, there will never be any winner in this debate/war. You are both like the person inside a dark, inflated balloon, with a flashlight. You each can examine every millimeter of the inside of the baloon, but can never see anything outside that confinement, nor inside the others balloon (world) Moreover, I think both of you enjoy this tiff way too much, inspite of the comments you make to each other. Just look back on how much each off you has made the other think in the last few weeks; you really wouldn't have it any other way. Admit it guys, you enjoy it!!
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 12-30-2001).]
The difference? Well, it's liek this; Mach10 and I took out disagreement earlier in this thread (evolution vs. creation) to email, and discussed it like civil adults. No flames, no name calling, but no baseles info either.
The outcome? We realised we were saying about the same thing, that God could have used evolution as His tool for creation.
Yeah, Ray has got me to pull the Bible out a few times and check what little info was lucid enough to look up, but his insults and slander take the joy out of what could be a truly wonderful debate.
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02:27 AM
Rare87GT Member
Posts: 5046 From: Wichita, KS USA Registered: Oct 2001
You guys are crazy. 22 pages long about Harry Potter. My gosh you guys are insane. This topic has got to go. This is ridiculous. Cliff get rid of the topic before there are replies.
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03:19 AM
Leper No longer registered
Report this Post12-31-2001 04:14 AM
Leper
posts Member since
quote
Originally posted by Rare87GT: You guys are crazy. 22 pages long about Harry Potter. My gosh you guys are insane. This topic has got to go. This is ridiculous. Cliff get rid of the topic before there are replies.
I think it's a little late for that.
BTW. Rayb is just a fairy tale. Conjured up to start (flame)wars on it's behalf by the people who belive it's real.
) where some have not done the above and if I had my choice of babysitting their kids, I would be more then willing to babysit them or adopt them as my kids, because they have more manners, common sense then alot of kids supposedly in a good upbringing.
