Design: "The purposeful or inventive arrangement of parts or details "

Now since none of the Zumalt parts are interchangeable, or used with Archies Kit, I don't think it's a re-design. Some of you guys really like to grasp for straws that aren't there.

And Darth, you have me figured all wrong on why on jumped in here in the first place.

You keep hearing about faithful followers? I guess if you believe in what you think and are not afraid to say it, then you should do that for anyone! Archie had my respect before and after he ever sold me anything. Is he harsh at times ?- YOU BET, but provoked before he is harsh. He has a no BS attitude and I for one like it. It is just sad some people do not have thick skin. They can dish it out but have a very hard time taking it back.

People need to step back and see that he is behind a lot of scenes. Someone mentioned Wheatstock, he also had the free go cart tickets at the dells, one of the sponsors for Fierorama, and many more. We all know that his Kits are awesome. So to say he does not contribute is a very false statement.

Just my .02 cents
Mike

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: But Zumalt did it well before him.. So it's a 'redesign'..

Tsk tsk sir. Zumalt's kit is completely different, with new axle shafts as a main component. But to revisit my post, I stated that his was the only one "to pass the tests of time", meaning he's still selling it, and Gary Zumalt is where??

.

[This message has been edited by I'm Back (edited 07-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: And if the parts weren't patented or were otherwise different enough to not be patent infringements, then it still falls under the purview of a sort of unofficial infringement if the parts were indeed interchangeble.

Only in your little world, Ed.

You never answered my question... where was Zumalt back in 1986 when Archie did his first Fiero V8 swap using a leftover Camaro engine?

quote Originally posted by Boomtastic: Tsk tsk sir. Zumalt's kit is completely different, with new axle shafts as a main component. But to revisit my post, I stated that his was the only one "to pass the tests of time", meaning he's still selling it, and Gary Zumalt is where??

Zumalt is in his shop.. I should know, I was there 1.5 years ago and bought my 67 Mustang fastback off him.. Good guy, you should see his shop! Wooo. Now that man has some projects going.. Nice lambo rebody (not a rebody.. Think it's tube chassis).. But there is still many a Fiero sitting around there!

Ah, edited your post, I see... I should have quoted the entire thing. I'll be sure to do that from now on.

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: Only in your little world, Ed. You never answered my question... where was Zumalt back in 1986 when Archie did his first Fiero V8 swap using a leftover Camaro engine?

Actually I misread your post. My new statement would be: If none of the parts are interchangeable, but the general intent of the kit has the same function of previous kits manuf by other people, then it is a redesign/reengineer. Not that that's a bad thing. I've never seen an Archie kit, but my impression of them are that they are now pretty good. I was told by credible sources that in the early days of Archie kits that they were somewhat rough. That's understandable if true, and if someone pipes in with how they were gold from the start, that would be unbelievable. Hell, even Hiundai's are better than they were - 737's are way better than they were, so there is nothing wrong or unusual about the first line of a product being far inferior to the final products years later.

As for where is Zumalt - I dunno. I don't care. I only see that as important if someone states how great his kits were and we wish he was here making them. He quit making them, so he had no lasting power, whether by failure or by just not wanting to make them anymore. To say that Archie learned nothing from him is ridiculous. Even if Archie used his kits as a model of what not to make/design, Zumalt still proved to be an asset to SBC Fieros. Is there anyone before Zumalt? IF not, he is the pioneer.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: If none of the parts are interchangeable, but the general intent of the kit has the same function of previous kits manuf by other people, then it is a redesign/reengineer.

Sorry, Ed, but that's wrong. If 2 people design something to do the same thing, but have no contact with one another and are unaware of each other, it may be 2 similar designs, but one is not a redesign of the other. A redesign, by definition is a revision of an existing design.

That's like saying the Ford GT is a redesigned Viper. The general intent of both products is the same, even though no parts interchange.

At this point, you're just arguing to argue. Just like your EdsB52 days.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 07-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Formula88: That's like saying the Ford GT is a redesigned Viper. The general intent of both products is the same, even though no parts interchange.

"Sorry, Ed, but that's wrong. If 2 people design something to do the same thing, but have no contact with one another and are unaware of each other, it may be 2 similar designs, but one is not a redesign of the other. A redesign, by definition is a revision of an existing design."

Valid to a point, especially if you are talking large assemblies like entire cars, but when you are talking about smaller specific devices I think the redesign defintion is more correct.

Also, Zumalt had his kit in existance before Archie, right? Well, if you want to state that Archie didn't learn from hsi kit then go ahead, especially since I recall reading writings from Archie stating he knew of Zumalt's kit and talked about the shortcommings of it.

Hmmmm, not going to comment about the contributions that Zumalt made, even if his kits sucked as the clones would likely state, and the only benefit was to establish what not to design. Colors are showing.

"At this point, you're just arguing to argue. Just like your EdsB52 days."

Bill, are you in there? These are the kinds of arguments I've grown accustomed to .

[This message has been edited by I'm Back (edited 07-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Also, Zumalt had his kit in existance before Archie, right?

I don't know - that's what I've asked more than once. What was Zumalt doing in 1986 when Archie did his first Fiero V8 swap with a leftover Camaro engine? Granted, I didn't ask this question directly to you the first time, Ed, but it sounds like you'd have an answer to it...

At this point, the judge is going to berate me for badgering the witness...

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 07-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: I don't know - that's what I've asked more than once. What was Zumalt doing in 1986 when Archie did his first Fiero V8 swap with a leftover Camaro engine? Granted, I didn't ask this question directly to you the first time, Ed, but it sounds like you'd have an answer to it... At this point, the judge is going to berate me for badgering the witness...

I believe Zumalt said he did his in 84-85.. I can't verify this of course, since I was a wee lad.. But it is my understand Zumalt did it first, and hten Archie had one and noticed the 'shortcomings', so did a redesign...

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: I believe Zumalt said he did his in 84-85.. I can't verify this of course, since I was a wee lad.. But it is my understand Zumalt did it first, and hten Archie had one and noticed the 'shortcomings', so did a redesign...

Excerpted from Archie's website ( www.v8archie.com ):

quote His story starts out back in 1982 when Pontiac introduced the finalized Fiero design to the public. Right off the bat, he liked this car. Mid-engine, two seater, space frame, 4-wheel disc brakes, rack & pinion steering, non-structural body panels, and other unique features caught his eye. He felt that this was going to be the "55 Chevy" of the next generation. The only thing he didn't like about the design was the 4 cylinder engine. But he knew there was rumors of a power upgrade targeted for next year. The story of the first V-8 Fiero starts in 1985. Every since the original announcement of the Fiero he was excited about the car and couldn’t resist talking about the car with anyone who would hold still. Archie has a, non-car-guy, brother that had heard so much about the Fiero that he bought an ‘85 GT and a few months later he bought an ‘86 SE. Every time his brother (with wife and kids) would come to visit they would drive both Fieros. During these visits, and while the families were visiting inside, Archie would just pour over these 2 cars studying each and every feature. These cars became the inspiration for the first V-8 Fiero. Of course Archie wanted a Fiero, he couldn’t afford a new "Loaded" Fiero and wouldn’t have a use for a lesser Fiero. Finally, without the knowledge of his brother, Archie and his wife decided that he should buy a used ‘84 Fiero and swap an extra V-8 engine from one of his Camaros into it. The first swap took 5 months to complete and was completed in April 1986. The motor that was being transplanted into the ‘84 was a 327 out of a 1967 Camaro. After a lot of hard work, it was in and ran like a charm.

No mention of a Zumalt kit.

EDIT - typo

[This message has been edited by LZeitgeist (edited 07-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist:

"I don't know - that's what I've asked more than once. What was Zumalt doing in 1986 when Archie did his first Fiero V8 swap with a leftover Camaro engine? Granted, I didn't ask this question directly to you the first time, Ed, but it sounds like you'd have an answer to it..."

I'm certainly no expert in the field, but I understand that Zumalt's were in existance, and that Archie wanted to improve upon them.

"At this point, the judge is going to berate me for badgering the witness..."

Sustained

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: "At this point, the judge is going to berate me for badgering the witness..." Sustained

::chuckle::

quote Originally posted by jstricker: I hate to be the one to break it to you Mastermind, but you're not perceived as a threat to Archie at all. You don't sell kits, you don't even have yours running. John Stricker PS: I don't think you want me to tell you what I perceive you as.

I'm responding only to make it clear that my 4.9 is running and has ran everyday since Ed Parks installed it. John, I'm not expecting a response from you. I'm only stating this because I did not address it earlier in the thread and I want everyone to be clear on that fact.

[This message has been edited by Mastermind (edited 07-19-2004).]

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Valid to a point, especially if you are talking large assemblies like entire cars, but when you are talking about smaller specific devices I think the redesign defintion is more correct.

Sorry, Ed, but you're wrong. Redesign means starting with an existing design and changing it. The size of the design has nothing to do with it. If you designed a bucket, and Mastermind designed a bucket, and the two of you didn't know each other, how could one be a redesign of the other?

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Also, Zumalt had his kit in existance before Archie, right? Well, if you want to state that Archie didn't learn from hsi kit then go ahead, especially since I recall reading writings from Archie stating he knew of Zumalt's kit and talked about the shortcommings of it. Hmmmm, not going to comment about the contributions that Zumalt made, even if his kits sucked as the clones would likely state, and the only benefit was to establish what not to design. Colors are showing.

You got tired of waiting for a reply WHILE YOU WERE TYPING THAT? Hmmm, Can't really reply until after you've posted, now can I?

Was Archie working on a V8 before Zumalt? I don't know, and no one has shown any evidence one way or another. You said you think Z was first, but if I think the moon is made of cheese that doesn't make it so.

But I think you're getting side-tracked. Re-design or no, you still troll after Archie, then play the victim and cry that he's coming after you. So you'll understand if I don't put a lot of credibility into your opinion.

My apologies. I must have had you confused with someone else, I thought yours was still a work in progress.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: I'm responding only to make it clear that my 4.9 is running and has ran everyday since Ed Parks installed it. John, I'm not expecting a response from you. I'm only stating this because I did not address it earlier in the thread and I want everyone to be clear on that fact.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: My apologies. I must have had you confused with someone else, I thought yours was still a work in progress. John Stricker

John, thanks for extending the courtesy. Apology accepted.

Jesus Christ.

quote Originally posted by JeffMN: Jesus Christ.

Oh, now we are bringing religion into this....we're all going to Hell.

quote Originally posted by JohnnyK: or he hadn't seen it yet.. I don't think i've ever seen him in o/t.. course.. he can't respond now after that comment.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... This is the funniest thread I've ever seen. ROFLMAO, you guys are SOOOOOOOoooooooo STUPID!!!!!!!.

Darth The Dirty Deed Doer, Starts an Archie ashing thread over here in O/T by posting a quote from another thread in General. He wanted to flame me but he saw what happened to the MasterBaiters' rating bar when he hijacked my thread. Besides Darth The Dirty Deed Doer, knows that I never visit O/T & he figures he can get a couple of days worth of Archie bashing before I find the thread. The little baby JohnnyKrap sounds like He's about to cry when He find that nobody invited Archie to this party.

Darth started this thread on Friday, JohnnyKrap discovered Archie's not coming late Sunday. I spent the weekend Driving around town with my V-8 Fieros, enjoying the weather and having fun. You 4 morons spent the weekend sitting on your hands, in front of your keyboards waiting for me to find this stupid thread. You guys should have a contest to see who's the dumbest. Oh wait, I guess you have been having that competition since Friday. HaHa, the jokes on you!!!!! ROFLMAO!!!!!!

If that's not enough EDsB52 has to drop in & let his stupidity hang out, again. Hey Ed, weren't you the 1st person Cliff ever booted off? Remember this thread? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20011127-1-008559.html Yeah I thought you might remember it. Remember those threads where you said an LT1 makes it's power at 1500 RPM & & & Remember this qoute about LT1's "There is no need to run that thing over 3000 rpm except for an instant when racing." https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000001/HTML/20020208-2-011358.html Yeah........ those were the days. There is a whole bunch more of your quotes in the archives, if you ask nice someone will explain to you how to use the search function.

MasterBaiter, What can I say that hasn't already beed said......... It was real funny how you disappeared a couple days when you 1st saw your rating bar. You spent months earning that red bar then when you got it you think you're gonna turn it around by posting a link to some Zip-Ties for sale. You are the weakest link. & I'll predict that your red bar will be flashing soon.

JohnnyKrap, There's some great threads in the Archives on for you too. I remember the one where you bought a sandwich to-go at one resturant then went into a Bar/Grill and ordered a Beer and proceeded to unwrap & eat that sandwich. You couldn't understand why they asked you to leave. You are runner up for the weakest link.

Darth the Durty Deed Doer, your Dumb....... but you're the smartest of this group (BTW, that's not a compliment). You get home from flipping burgers in the wee hours of the morning and you see that MasterBaiter is getting all the attention & you're not getting any. Figuring that negative attention is better than none at all, so you gotta get someof that. You get these guys all sturred up & sit & watch them turn bright shades of red. You think you're pretty smart, but remember MasterBaiter thought he was on top of it when his bar turned red on him. Yeah, you started this thread because you were looking to cheer me up. Well you're not fooling anybody, even Cliff has your number. If you're so concerned about the turmoil on the Forum, maybe you should mind your own business and quit telling me what I should say or do.

Everybody that's been watching this thread......... Go look up these 4 clowns in the old posts in the archives. You'll find that in their early posts each one of these guys called me on the phone at one time or the other & you'll read their complaints that I didn't treat them right. I would submit to you that given the attitudes that you've seen from them in this thread, maybe I had good cause to not want to talk to them on the phone. And guess what, all 4 of them are still crying about it.

Ok, for 4 days now these babies have been crying about how I mistreat them & they've called me names and they've abused others who've disagreed with them in this thread. Now watch them start crying about how I've mistreated them in this post.

Archie

I got about 150 miles of cruising in my sig car this weekend and I didn't have anyone bad mouth me.......hmmmmm must be the Internet....

------------------

johnnykrap? Archie lets his colours fly.. not that it matters to most.. I don't even remember that sandwich story at ALL.. so it couldn't have been that traumatic.. Never even bashed ya.. Just saying Zumalt did it first.. Even you can admit that.. Just thought I'd post that I didn't think you'd visit OT.. However, I AM rather flattered that you took the time to look me up! Can't say I would have done the same for you.. Curious about this sandwich story though? Look it up for me again, would ya? You seem to be curious about my past.. Wonder if it's The Second cup.. that would be ironic.. You are a sad old man..

quote Originally posted by Archie: Darth the Durty Deed Doer, your Dumb....... but you're the smartest of this group (BTW, that's not a compliment). You get home from flipping burgers in the wee hours of the morning and you see that MasterBaiter is getting all the attention & you're not getting any. Figuring that negative attention is better than none at all, so you gotta get someof that. You get these guys all sturred up & sit & watch them turn bright shades of red. You think you're pretty smart, but remember MasterBaiter thought he was on top of it when his bar turned red on him. Yeah, you started this thread because you were looking to cheer me up. Well you're not fooling anybody, even Cliff has your number. If you're so concerned about the turmoil on the Forum, maybe you should mind your own business and quit telling me what I should say or do. Archie

LOL I need to change my S/N to SimonBarSinister then since I am such a bad guy for suggesting people should cheer you up. As for flipping burgers, the only place I flip any burgers are on the grill on my back porch. Sorry, but you don't even know me, but please keep trying its funny to watch the BS pour out of your mouth.

If you must know what I have been up to all weekend and last week, here it is: http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128898 That's right, ANOTHER SWAP UNDERWAY, worked on only by me PERSONALLY, I don't have to have other people do it for me.

And by the way, it is nice to have the apptitude to be able to work on cars OTHER than Fieros. As for Cliff, he voiced his opinion and he is certainly entitled to it. But at least I respect his forum enough to talk about something like this in OFF TOPIC, where it belongs. Unlike you who clogs up tech and general chat with your BS. But now since you have "contributed" to this thread, it really belongs in the TRASH CAN.

Again, since you can't compete in the arena of ideas, you have to resort to character assasination because that's all you are good at.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-20-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Sorry, but you don't even know me,

And you don't know me, why can't you mind your own business & quit being such and A$$.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: If you must know what I have been up to all weekend and last week, here it is: That's right, ANOTHER SWAP UNDERWAY, worked on only by me PERSONALLY, I don't have to have other people do it for me.

Does that mean you finally finished that V-6 Fiero swap? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/047231.html What did it take you? 4 months???, don't break you arm patting yourself on the back.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: But now since you have "contributed" to this thread, it really belongs in the TRASH CAN.

Yeah you want this one in the trashcan because you know that Cliff doesn't Archive the trashcan. All your other bashing posts are in the areas of the Forum where they will be Archived. 5 years from now people will still be able to find out what you were like when you were a young A$$hole.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Again, since you can't compete in the arena of ideas, you have to resort to character assasination because that's all you are good at.

Ideas, let's see ideas?!? V-8 Fiero, Suicide doors, chop tops, GT40 on Fiero et al yeah I guess you're right. How can my ideas compete with the Great Darth?

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: .........., you have to resort to character assasination because that's all you are good at.

I see, & the last 3 pages of this thread had nothing to do with character assasination? Sure.

quote Ok, for 4 days now these babies have been crying about how I mistreat them & they've called me names and they've abused others who've disagreed with them in this thread. Now watch them start crying about how I've mistreated them in this post.

Another of my predictions comes true.

Archie

quote Originally posted by Archie: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...... This is the funniest thread I've ever seen. ROFLMAO, you guys are SOOOOOOOoooooooo STUPID!!!!!!!. Darth The Dirty Deed Doer, Starts an Archie ashing thread over here in O/T by posting a quote from another thread in General. He wanted to flame me but he saw what happened to the MasterBaiters' rating bar when he hijacked my thread. Besides Darth The Dirty Deed Doer, knows that I never visit O/T & he figures he can get a couple of days worth of Archie bashing before I find the thread. The little baby JohnnyKrap sounds like He's about to cry when He find that nobody invited Archie to this party. MasterBaiter, What can I say that hasn't already beed said......... It was real funny how you disappeared a couple days when you 1st saw your rating bar. JohnnyKrap, There's some great threads in the Archives on for you too. Archie I got about 150 miles of cruising in my sig car this weekend and I didn't have anyone bad mouth me.......hmmmmm must be the Internet....

This is classic Archie with yet another typical insult laden diatribe devoid of substance. "Darth The Dirty Deed Doer" "MasterBaiter" JohnnyKrap the little baby" "you guys are SOOOOOOOoooooooo STUPID!!!!!!!." All perfect examples of what I have been talking about regarding Archie's lack of communicative civility. Archie's juvenile verbal tantrums are simply inexcusable and PFF deserves better.

[This message has been edited by Mastermind (edited 07-20-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: This is classic Archie with yet another typical insult laden diatribe devoid of substance.

Yeah, kinda like your first 10 posts in this thread.

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: Archie's juvenile verbal tantrums are simply inexcusable and PFF deserves better.

You could go start your own Forum, I know a guy named Eric that could sho you how to do it.

Archie

Here's a suggestion for an experiment. Read all the post in this thread then associate a age with the poster and if their rating is accurate given the content of their post.

[This message has been edited by Mastermind (edited 07-20-2004).]

quote Originally posted by Mastermind: This is classic Archie with yet another typical insult laden diatribe devoid of substance. "Darth The Dirty Deed Doer" "MasterBaiter" JohnnyKrap the little baby" "you guys are SOOOOOOOoooooooo STUPID!!!!!!!." All perfect examples of what I have been talking about regarding Archie's lack of communicative civility. Archie's juvenile verbal tantrums are simply inexcusable and PFF deserves better.

So is this the classic moment when you're gonna tell everyone that Archie started it in this thread and you were just defending yourself?

EXACTLY!!!! Well put Formula88

Let's look at just the facts of THIS thread.

1) It was started to cheer Archie up (so it was said)
2) Others came in and started to Flame on Archie
3) It kept going by certain individuals for a couple days
4) Archie see's it and strikes back at the individuals

I guess if this is the "so called" typical Archie then so be it. He did not bash anyone until bashed upon.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So is this the classic moment when you're gonna tell everyone that Archie started it in this thread and you were just defending yourself?

[This message has been edited by YellowRooster (edited 07-20-2004).]

quote Originally posted by YellowRooster: 1) It was started to cheer Archie up (so it was said)

Yeah, so He said. On page 2 he said this .........

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Thats what this thread is all about. You know, Archie does have some interesting products and generally does have some good ideas. The problem is he gets on here and has this attitude that everyone is out to get him and make his business fail. What he fails to see is that if he is capable of running a successful business outside of the internet, then he has nothing to worry about that gets said here on the internet. I just don't see how jumping up and down on people's heads is going to help his business. Guess thats just the way I look at it, who knows I could be wrong. Maybe jumping up and down on peoples heads and insulting them will make them even more eager to buy your products or services.

so go figure.

Archie

wow, I would have expected better from Darth...total set up

"Sometimes you realize a thread can only get worse from there on. It's not like people will spontaneously fall into each other's arms, apologize and move on." ¹⁾

1) From: 101 answers to the question "Why are threads moved to the Trash Can?"
Also available in paperback.

Dang, no archiving now... bummer.

It will always be archived here, in my heart.

Guess that debunks all your theories that he is too mature to respond... Hell, even my theory that he couldn't respond to it after somebody said that..