Lavoy actions are not that of someone who was surrendering (based on the video). He was walking around, most likely not listening to commands of officers. That would indicate he is not surrendering, but instead is still a threat. This makes me think he already decided on his actions before this event. Sad that he had to endanger others, if he really wanted to go out this way.
The daughter said she was lying on the floor of the SUV. What was she able to see from there?
People have stated there are already gun shots in the vehicle before he got out, driver side front windshield. Speculation has been made he was diverting fire from vehicle which had his daughter in it. Also, this is a 55 year old man that just crashed, disorientated and stumbling through the snow. I haven't heard audio, I don't know what the commands are. Also notice how he just flys out the door into the snow, almost like he instantly transports? What was cut there?
As for what the teenage girl seen, I imagine bits and pieces between cowering and peeking out a window. I am inclined to believe her at this point, as far as what she thought she saw.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-29-2016).]
It's all speculation right now, The video shows him reaching, but it doesn't show if for a gun or clutching from being shot. No audio is provided, muzzle flash isn't visible. Need the body cam footage, dash cam footage, and/or traffic cam footage if available. Reports that they ran after being fired on at the first stop. Don't know if that is true or false. You can't tell from the aerial footage.
Lavoy actions are not that of someone who was surrendering (based on the video). He was walking around, most likely not listening to commands of officers. That would indicate he is not surrendering, but instead is still a threat. This makes me think he already decided on his actions before this event. Sad that he had to endanger others, if he really wanted to go out this way.
The daughter said she was lying on the floor of the SUV. What was she able to see from there?
I never got into this story, but I did watch this video, all I can say is he had to have a death wish to reach for ANYTHING but the sky. They for sure did not ask to see an ID, so reaching into his jacket is a hostile move given the circumstances. He ran into an Officer during a chase and was lucky shots were not fired then. Jumping out of the vehicle and running in ANY direction without instructions from Officers is asking for trouble. My opinion is that he committed suicide by cop for the purpose of being a martyr for his cause. Gambling that people will be angered (at an unjustified Police shooting) and rise up against the Government? And bringing an end to Government land grabs or what ever caused all this.
The man looks to be reaching repeatedly in the video provided by the FBI. It clearly shows this.
I also do not fully believe the cut and paste job of a video that we got. Every vehicle will have recording. Something this big is always recorded. I would imagine that the white truck has video also. We are being fed BS here.
Wow, picked up a neg for stating an opinion that is not angry or offensive. No name calling, just an opinion based on the same video everyone else here is voicing opinions on.
Wow, picked up a neg for stating an opinion that is not angry or offensive. No name calling, just an opinion based on the same video everyone else here is voicing opinions on.
The man looks to be reaching repeatedly in the video provided by the FBI. It clearly shows this.
I also do not fully believe the cut and paste job of a video that we got. Every vehicle will have recording. Something this big is always recorded. I would imagine that the white truck has video also. We are being fed BS here.
My thoughts also... everyone has a camera on them (phone) and they are cheap to buy and mount (gopro type). Hmmm... strange that we haven't heard anything... but I will wait.
I have earned some negs, but after the thread that is going on about FF getting baned, and people stating concerns over unjustified ratings, I did not expect such a quick negative rating over a simple difference of opinion.
[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-29-2016).]
IF, this is true they got there because of his own actions. He ran into an Officer trying to breach a road block. This is hardly controversial.
Per the FBI statement linked to in one of my post, he did not hit the agent. Also notice the agent moved in front of his path, before moving away. BTW, I did not neg you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-29-2016).]
Looks like he could have been pointing to where he was hit(if shot already) or grabbing an area that was hurt in the accident. Doesn't absolutely look like he is clearly reaching to draw something. Not sure why they wanted to release the video so soon. Could hurt them more then it helps.
Since it was a joint FBI, Oregon State Police operation, and the OSP supposedly fired the shots. They should have body cams. Release that footage to clarify, unless of course there is something they need to hide.
Per the FBI statement linked to in one of my post, he did not hit the agent. Also notice the agent moved in front of his path, before moving away. BTW, I did not neg you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
You and I have the luxury of time to gather information and make decisions based on extra facts. Officers at the scene did not, they reacted on what they saw from their perspective. I would be completely shocked if you had given me a neg for this thread. I respect your opinion and those expressed by others, EVEN if I disagree with them. We all are entitled to opinions and seeing others opinions may help shape mine, for those differing opinions I am great full for.
Since it was a joint FBI, Oregon State Police operation, and the OSP supposedly fired the shots. They should have body cams. Release that footage to clarify, unless of course there is something they need to hide.
I doubt they have anything to hide related to this incedent. Body cams may only show glimpses of snow and green blurred scenery. But having a preconceived opinion of any incident will prove a person's accusations more than any acual evidence.
You and I have the luxury of time to gather information and make decisions based on extra facts. Officers at the scene did not, they reacted on what they saw from their perspective. I would be completely shocked if you had given me a neg for this thread. I respect your opinion and those expressed by others, EVEN if I disagree with them. We all are entitled to opinions and seeing others opinions may help shape mine, for those differing opinions I am great full for.
Lol, you still have a positive from me. I seriously doubt that will ever change. I don't have a preconceived. I remember both wacos, and ruby ridge. I also remember Lavoy stating he would rather die than be caged. Just looking hard at the evidence and not believing either side. I do believe in the cause the Bundys were fighting for, I do not agree with their methods.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-29-2016).]
Lol, you still have a positive from me. I seriously doubt that will ever change. I don't have a preconceived. I remember both wacos, and ruby ridge. I also remember Lavoy stating he would rather die than be caged. Just looking hard at the evidence and not believing either side. I do believe in the cause the Bundys were fighting for, I do not agree with their methods.
I hear you.
I did not accuse you of bias, that is why I used general language.
Duane Ehmer carrying Lavoy FInicum's gun on his hip. Seeing as the FBI didn't give it back, it means he didn't have it at the shootout. Not saying he didn't have a back up at the time, but it wasn't the revolver everyone seen.
Here is a pic of Finicum with the same gun.
[This message has been edited by dennis_6 (edited 01-29-2016).]
Duane Ehmer carrying Lavoy FInicum's gun on his hip. Seeing as the FBI didn't give it back, it means he didn't have it at the shootout. Not saying he didn't have a back up at the time, but it wasn't the revolver everyone seen.
Here is a pic of Finicum with the same gun.
Kind of seems like he planned a one way trip. Left the trade mark gun behind?
I am Reverend Don from the Church of the Latter Day Dude. I don't think any of the videos that I've seen are conclusive and I would like to see more before deciding what happened. I agree with all or nearly all of what the Pastor said. Anytime I get pulled over I move slowly or not at all and I keep my hands visible. And that's without guns in the vehicle that they know about and without stating 'they'll never take me alive. I'm sorry he got killed.
The only facts we know are: Finicum said he wouldn't be taken alive (or words to that effect) on video. Finicum was known to be armed. Finicum was killed when stopped by LEO.
There are gaps in the facts, but being on record that he refuses to be taken to jail and has frequently been seen armed doesn't leave a lot of room for different outcomes.. Everyone taking part in the occupation of that building will go to jail or a morgue. I can't think of any outcome where they'd be allowed to walk away without being arrested.
The only chance for them to get off without jail time, or worse, is to leave of their own accord, and they'd go free in that case only if the Feds were being generous in order to bring a swift and peaceful conclusion to the standoff. I don't really see that happening. I don't know what their end game is, but the Feds will end this one way or another. They'll go full Waco if they have to. (none of this is condoning action - only my expectation of what is likely to happen)
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 01-30-2016).]
I'm guessing that they will be charged and convicted of felonies and then lose their right to own guns. Big backfire! I don't think that they gave it much thought when they occupied the refuge. Just not the way to protest.
I'm guessing that they will be charged and convicted of felonies and then lose their right to own guns. Big backfire! I don't think that they gave it much thought when they occupied the refuge. Just not the way to protest.
Very true. They should have just set the place on fire and looted everything in sight.
Lots of differences there. You're just kidding right? Sometimes I don't get the joke. The militia although not entirely innocent hasn't done very much vandalism but when you go in there heavily armed it's way different from the criminal rioting and looting. Thank god the thug rioters weren't armed like that. Apples and oranges to me. I don't condone either one at all, for any reason.
Meh....it's a minor swipe....and rather predictable under the circumstances.
Whenever a Black person says something negative about those guys in Oregon, one or more of their supporters usually come back with "But...but....Baltimore.....but....Ferguson." Since neither is acceptable, neither negates the other.
But, if it gets them through the night, carry on.
[This message has been edited by Doni Hagan (edited 01-30-2016).]
... Whenever a Black person says something negative about those guys in Oregon, one or more of their supporters usually come back with "But...but....Baltimore.....but....Ferguson." Since neither is acceptable, neither negates the other.
...
No. You come in to stir the pot. Where was your negative comments on the black rioters?
Once again, it is ok for a black man to crack a joke about whitey, but damned be the white guy that posts facts about the black guy.
So, what reparations do you expect?
Neither is acceptable, but one is destructive to the tune of millions of dollars. The other not so much.
Thousands of rioters, or 8 white guys having a sit in?
Meh....it's a minor swipe....and rather predictable under the circumstances.
Whenever a Black person says something negative about those guys in Oregon, one or more of their supporters usually come back with "But...but....Baltimore.....but....Ferguson." Since neither is acceptable, neither negates the other.
But, if it gets them through the night, carry on.
I love you Doni but the Black thing is not working. Few care about color. It really is about a profile.
I didn't say he couldn't do it. He can say whatever he wishes...and I've got his back. Free speech and all that. The world would be a patticularly bland place if we all saw it the same way.
Lots of differences there. You're just kidding right? Sometimes I don't get the joke. The militia although not entirely innocent hasn't done very much vandalism but when you go in there heavily armed it's way different from the criminal rioting and looting. Thank god the thug rioters weren't armed like that. Apples and oranges to me. I don't condone either one at all, for any reason.
No, nobody "condones" either. They just turn a blind eye. Doni says the comments are "predictable." I say the police response, or in the case of looting blacks, the lack of response, is equally predictable.
Both wrong, but one will be punished, the other won't. Very predictable.
[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 01-30-2016).]
The few remaining occupiers have said they will not surrender without pardons for themselves and everyone else involved. This should have been the demand for the whole group from the beginning. To think that the offer to "just go home quietly" was anything other than a divide and conquer strategy was an insult to anyone's intelligence. Those guys were stupid to not wear masks and they were stupid to leave that compound for any sort of "meetings"! They should have had "outsiders" shuttle supplies as long as that was allowed but once inside their perimeter, they were there to stay to the end.
Now it is on the shoulders of four men to hold out for the freedom of everyone known to be involved. Time is not on their side.
[This message has been edited by Boostdreamer (edited 01-31-2016).]
I didnt see a drawn gun. He simply could have been having a hard time walking on the rough ground in deep snow and trying to keep his balance. If Im carrying in my hip holster, a lot of times I put my hand over it when running or walking on rough ground to keep it from falling out on the ground. not all of mine have a thumb break.
