There are some trade offs. With the MSD unit it will be techically not be emissions compliant, although it may pass the treadmill test using the 1988 standards for the car.
The MSD unit is a bank to bank batchfire fire, speed density type ecu. So I'll loose a tiny bit of low speed drive manors and a little MPG and it may be a little persnickety untill it warms up. Here is a link that shows some more information on the ecu. http://www.umiracing.com/ga...y/Images/Catalog.pdf
The goal of the car is to be a street legal track car that I can beat the snot out of with out the worries of breaking drive line parts. So I can certainly live with all that.
The ECM , Harness and Software that you reference cost $1900. By comparison if you purchased a ready made harness, used the factory PCM, and HP Tuners VCM tuning suite software you'd be in the neighborhood of $1300. If you wired yourself then deduct about $650.00. So a DIY wiring job should cost about $650 with the software. If you sent the PCM out for programming then you could rewire for $100 and probably have its programmed for another $100. The GM PCM appears to be the better and more cost effective alternative but the programming issues might prove challenging.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE WILDCAT" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 02-16-2009).]
Usually when you buy a complete drop out it includes the harness and ECU. I did not find out untill later there is a stand alone ECU for the LSJ from GM. racing. P#12610648 for the Ariel Atom. It's already setup for the stage 3 tune. I'm think it may use the electric throttle too.
The best option would be to rip the tune from #12610648 and put it in your ECU that came with the motor. It would be virtually free for the right person.
I have one here but I have not had a chance to play with it yet.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Usually when you buy a complete drop out it includes the harness and ECU. I did not find out untill later there is a stand alone ECU for the LSJ from GM. racing. P#12610648 for the Ariel Atom. It's already setup for the stage 3 tune. I'm think it may use the electric throttle too.
The best option would be to rip the tune from #12610648 and put it in your ECU that came with the motor. It would be virtually free for the right person.
I have one here but I have not had a chance to play with it yet.
Keep the post alive. This is getting interesting. I want to do an Ecotec for my next swap. Been hessitant to do so until now but with the right engine management, one of the main obstacles wil be removed. I don't know if you are aware of it but Ecotecs have found their way into dune buggies, a 6 second turbo dragster (Don Nase Jr) and other sport compact classes. These applications must use stand alone PCM.s without all of the interface garbage. Some may use aftermarket engine management while others may use the GM PCM.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, 3.4" Pulley, N* TB, LS1 MAF, Flotech Exhaust Autolite 104's Custom CAI 4T65eHD w. custom axles, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE WILDCAT" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Don't forget boats!, very popular in power boat racing too. I think you will find the motor has invaded the 2.0-2.5 liter class of just about every form of racing. This is no way as huge as the popularity of the V8's but with diligent searching you can find the trickle down of speed parts for the ecotec.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I have been working on the IMSA body of the ecotec car for a while in preparation for a speical Norm's front clip due in hopefully this month. See the body work in a seperate post.
I needed to get the rear clip in shape to finish the exhaust system. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098086.html I had made the exhaust system earlier with the cast iron manifold and the regular rear clip. I liked they way the two supertrapps look so I'm going to try to re-use as much as I can.
I'm thinking I may extend the lower pan as close as I can to the cat.
I just need to fill in the bits between the top half of the header and the cat.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
It's been cold and rainy for the last few days here in Houston and I've been stuck inside. I can only image what you northerners must put up with.
I've started back in the exhuast preparing the bits that I can off the car.
I cut off the tsudo flange and installed two V-band clamps on the first set of collectors.
The V-bands are real nice units. They will allow me to drop the exhuast system with out unbolting the header to work on the engine. Also I can make a race only second section and swap it out easy.
I got a set of used Burns merge collectors that I modified with a expansion cone to bring it up to 3" diameter of the rest of the system.
I wish I could weld as smooth a bead as the guys at Burns.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I made an offer on one but the guy only budged by 150. So I got an LSJ at half the price and I'll just turbo it later on. If anyone is interested, there is a LNF on ebay right now for just over 4000. I would LOVE to see someone put that in their Fiero. I would, but I'm not rich enough.
I had to spend a few weekends cleaning out the garage to make room for the ecotec fiero. The HOA has written me up a few times about "inoperatable vehicle" in view. So rather then face the frickin lawyers I made nice and moved it inside.
I have installed a winch on the floor in the back of the garage so I can roll it in and out to work on it. I really need a bigger place to work.
I've been working on the body on and off and made a little progress smoothing out the fiberglass.
After I get the car running and sorted, I have a GXP turbo that will replace the super charger. The LSJ is limited by belt slipage and excessive wear. Also the heat generated by the supercharger becomes excessive over 20 psi. But that's a little down the line.
I have been reading good things about the mefi-5 ECU's, you can get total control of the electric bits.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
does the LSJ have the piston oil squirters ? i have been watching cobalt ss prices and they have been dropping lately .i want to do an automatic car sometime but this time i going to buy the whole donor car .
Yes, the LSJ has squirters, better rods and crank. Also it has a better cylinder head too. GM does recomend going to forged pistons when going over 300 hp, the stock rotating assembly is good to about 500hp before needing better rods.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
After I get the car running and sorted, I have a GXP turbo that will replace the super charger. The LSJ is limited by belt slipage and excessive wear. Also the heat generated by the supercharger becomes excessive over 20 psi. But that's a little down the line.
So does that mean you'll essentially have an LNF then? Aren't these engines very similar? How much from the GXP are you switching over?
Would it be easier to get the engine running first, so the car can move in and out of the shop on it's own power? (aka. Pontiac assembly plant. )
The LNF's have the same bottom end, but have variable cam timing heads on top. I got a good deal on a new turbo/manifold unit on ebay awhile back, so it's just waiting in the wings.
If a nice LNF drop out comes along at the right time I might modifiy another cradle and swap it out.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
ccfiero350 ---- did you use a viton O-ring, copper or something in between the V-band clamp flanges? I have sets of V-band clamps for my exhaust when I get around to making them. I believe there is supposed to be a gasket between them and wanted to know what you used and where to get them..
V-band clamps come in several styles, some need gaskets to seal, metal or synthetic, some do not . A good design for exhuast would be the kind with out gaskets. The good ones to get have sexes. There is a little step on the ID so the hot gases have to make a few right angle turns before escaping. The flat ones are more prone to leaking.
Do not use the ones with o-rings or plastic sealers for exhaust., they will just burn up. They are for liquids and cool gases. The ones with copper crush washers are typicaly used for hi-vacuum applications.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Oh.. okay... I do have the ID stepped-in ones... So I don't need gaskets then? If I were to get gaskets I want to look for the copper ones or should I stay away from all?
[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 04-10-2009).]
If you have a little step lip on the ID with a mating step relief on the other piece ID, you got the best one for exhaust. No gasket is needed.
For Exhaust stuff you do not want any gaskets, In my case I would just loose them anyway.
If you are doing intake stuff, you will need the extra sealing. The copper ones are the best but you can only use them once, so viton works better here in the engine compartment.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I'm still a bit confused if his kit will work for an LSJ and/or an LNF. Does his shift kit work? Is it needed? C350, could you clarify please?
As straightforward as the Ecotecs look, I'm surprised they're not more popular swaps. Maybe his website should be advertised better.
Sometimes I wonder if a similar kit to Roger Thelin's would work with Honda and/or Mazda engines. The latter two are common as dirt and well documented. (some even have low end torque )
On page one it pretty much details out Roger's kit. It is made for the readily available standard ecotec. The LSJ or LNF are the premium crop of the ecotecs. Although the engines share the same blocks there are some key differances. The big one that Roger capitalises on is the oil pan. He uses the two big bolts coming out of the bottom to mount with. The LSJ and LNF have smooth bottoms, no bolts, and hold and extra quart of oil.
The other big differance is that LSJ and LNF are bolted to the big honker F35 transmission which has a differant mount bolt patern and a two shaft shift/selector rather then a single shaft on the F23.
I think you will be seeing more of these in the future but it will not be as popular as the V8's are.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Do you think Roger could make a kit that works for the F-35 then? I really like the idea of having a Torsen type LSD. Couldn't I just switch the oil pan to the regular one, or some sort of Accusump/dry sump system? (Do they make one yet?)
When I started this project, Roger was finishing his prototypes and so I bought one of his kits to see what could be used for both versions. The front cross bar but not the mounts he designed could work for both motors. So I kept the 2x3 tube and fabbed everything else to fit the LSJ.
You could change oil pans and use Roger's front engine mount setup with the LSJ, but you would still have to fab the transmision mounts and shifter asembly.
Roger's kits are very well thought out and is probably the fastest, easiest way to get an ecotec motor and transmision into a fiero, just not a LSJ ecotec with a F35 tranny.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Oh. Do you think he'll offer an LSJ/LNF (would it be the same kit?) kit if there was enough demand for it? Especially with the F-35 tranny. (or F-40 in case Saab engines are common Stateside)
I re-read my post. I guess I misunderstood earlier. I thought you meant that you and Thelin had a prototyping agreement of some sort. (shared R&D, or something like that.) The adapters you made are probably 1-off, right? Or do you have templates to make more of them?
I shared with Roger about the differances between the two setups, plus he's probably seen everything I published here as everybody else has.
I'm a big fan of paper templates (so much cheaper then steel and you can cut it with scissors). The only thing I did not use templates and I wish I did was the shift linkages. I did it 3 or 4 times and ending up frankinstiening the parts together.
Once you see how it was done it's pretty easy to duplicate the results.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I've been bogged down and have not spent much time with the mechanicals of the car as of late. I did finally finish smoothing out the bumper and spraying some primer on it. I have to say I'm better at a lot of other things then body work.
I need to get the fender cut outs done so I could position the tips of the exhaust. Two 4" supertraps from the previous exhaust system.
The baffles will add about an inch to the length of the tips.
The outside tube gets hung by a HD exhaust hanger welded to the frame horn. The hanger has a s-bend applied to it so I can muscle it around to the right possition after everthing has a few spot welds to hold it together.
I made a standoff from the frame to bolt the 1st stainless bracket on in the lower left corner. The second one will be on the inlet side of the cat.
The next hard part is to take the two 2" pipes from the top part of the header, merge them , go under the frame and go into the 3" inlet of the cat. I ran out of the right lenth of 2" tube ans will have to start again this weekend.
As you can see by this view, it has to dip down to go under the frame. It should be a real pita to get it all hooked up.
I did swap out the rear deck lid for an 84 unit. (Thanks sparx22!) for the additional cooling it can provide. I cut out the under side of the deck lid to get maximum exposure through the grill. Since this is going to be a street legal track car, it's not going to be in a lot of weather. (hopefully)
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I had to come to some compromises as I got down to the last turn. I had to frankenstien a super sharp bend right after the expansion cone.
I taped up the ends and ran a purge gas inside the tubes to avoid crusty boogers along the inside of the welds.
Here it is all welded up.
As you can see it not much more then a long tube header with a cat and muffler tips.
I'm thinking with the 3" diameter pipe it should have a deeper tone for a 4 banger, and the 4:2:1 header will give it a differant pulsation sound then the more common 4:1 header. Can't wait to hear it run.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
Having spent the last few years working heavily with this engine (cobalt ss/sc) I can tell you that its got some really wicked instant torque, but be prepared for heatsoak issues above 14psi. there is a hard ceiling at about 280-290hp. unfortunately there are very few reliable, daily driven 300+hp LSJs floating around. and the few that are, have spent over 5k to get it.
good luck getting it all finished. and kudos on tackling such a unique swap!
I'm anticipating the heat problems with the stage 3 mods to the motor. One of the good things about the LSJ in the fiero is that I will not have the radiators dumping their heat load right back on the blower housing and with the 84 grill you get lot's of ventilation to help out keeping that puppy cool. When Norm delivers my front end, I have some big aluminum radiators to help with the additional heat.
------------------ yellow 88 GT, not stock white 88 notchie, 4 banger
I also have the tsudo header on my swap, would you be interested in making me one of the custom pieces you have? Im really uneasy taking it to an exhaust shop to do it, people ask to many questions lol.
Does it fit under the stock trunk or would you guess it would?
)
