Originally posted by Gwain: For those of you who have not received your EGR plate yet (you'll know that you're one if you haven't received it):
I did not quite anticipate the demand, and did not run enough to cover all interested parties initially!
We're doing another run this week to cover the rest of you, and put some on the shelf for later. I tried to ship in the order I received addresses. Sorry for the delays.
What a pro this guy Gwain, plate arrived nicely packed with a printed letter, business card and CAD file. I will do business with him anytime, If we weren't so far away LOL.
while re-pinning my ECM connectors - I found an error in my wiring harness
on the Fiero ECM connector, there are 2 lines for each injector bank control. while pulling the terminals from the Fiero ECM and plugging into the 7730 ECM, one at a time - I come across what looks like an error in Darth's re-pinning diagram. here is a green wire which is supposed to be a blue wire, and a blue wire where there should be a green wire. the car ran, so it must be the diagram - not the harness....start digging into this....
here is what we got 2 green for inj bank A, and 2 blue for inj bank B. Not sure why - probably because the old Fiero ECM internal switch doesnt have the nutz to switch the injectors, so, it needed to split the load. anyways, in the wiring harness, there is only 1 wire for inj A & 1 wire for inj B. which means there is a "Y" for the wire to split into 2 terminals. I saw they did this for a MAP terminal also. anyways - I follow one of the leads down to the "Y". I find the factory had mixed up the "Y" wires. the "main" blue wire had a 2nd green lead tied to it at the "Y", and the main green wire had a blue lead tied to it at the "Y". ug. anyways - since the new ECM uses only 1 terminal now, just cut the wrong "Y" lead off, and all was happy again. but, boy did it confuse me untill I saw what went wrong. had I followed the incorrect wiring color code of the wiring harness - I would have had a VERY messed up injection system, either having only 1 bank of 3 injectors firing constatnly - or having all 6 firing as one bank constantly.
re-pinning is pretty easy, once you get the hang of it. for the "release tool" - I am using a bent open hair pin. works nice. remove enough electrical tape from the harness, so you can handle single wires, put the connector in a vice, hang the wiring, so it doesnt "pull" on the connector. if you look into the face of the connector, you see 4 rows of holes. the outter are the realease holes. in them, you will see the realease tab, on one side of the hole. stick the tool/hairpin into the hole, flat along the realease tab, you'll feel it hit bottom, maybe even hear the tab realease, now pull the wire out. that easy. they do make an official tool for this also. I expect that works even better. the hairpin is slightly to narrow, and sometimes misses the realease, and is soft, so you need to flip it over a few times as it bends.
Originally posted by Hudini: Now I'm going to have to check my wiring too. Thanks for the heads up.
How long before she fires up?
I'm sure mine was just a bad day at the factory. but - no harm in chacking. it fairly easy to spot. on the Fiero connector: C15 & D16 should be blue (on mine D16 was green) and D14 & D15 should be green (on mine D15 was blue) on the 7730 connector its BC11 should be blue - just follow it back to a taped up spot - thats where the "Y" is. make sure it is blue after that also BC12 is the green one. same thing - follow it back to the taped up spot - make sure it green after that also.
also - if anyone interested - I have a 3 solenoid EGR valve - never used (except for engine break-in) - engine was never in a car - $40. PM if interested
Originally posted by Pyrthian: 2 green for inj bank A, and 2 blue for inj bank B. Not sure why - probably because the old Fiero ECM internal switch doesnt have the nutz to switch the injectors, so, it needed to split the load. anyways, in the wiring harness, there is only 1 wire for inj A & 1 wire for inj B. which means there is a "Y" for the wire to split into 2 terminals. I saw they did this for a MAP terminal also. anyways - I follow one of the leads down to the "Y". I find the factory had mixed up the "Y" wires. the "main" blue wire had a 2nd green lead tied to it at the "Y", and the main green wire had a blue lead tied to it at the "Y". ug. anyways - since the new ECM uses only 1 terminal now, just cut the wrong "Y" lead off, and all was happy again. but, boy did it confuse me untill I saw what went wrong. had I followed the incorrect wiring color code of the wiring harness - I would have had a VERY messed up injection system, either having only 1 bank of 3 injectors firing constatnly - or having all 6 firing as one bank constantly.
The wiring on my car was like that, also. Like you, I just snipped the wrong colored legs off the injector Y-junctions, and removed the redundant wires from the sensor circuits.
To give Darth some credit, he does specify the correct wires to use for the injectors. He just has the colors for the ones to delete backwards. As long as you follow the pin numbers, you'll be fine.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 01-11-2008).]
Originally posted by Blacktree: The wiring on my car was like that, also. Like you, I just snipped the wrong colored legs off the injector Y-junctions, and removed the redundant wires from the sensor circuits.
To give Darth some credit, he does specify the correct wires to use for the injectors. He just has the colors for the ones to delete backwards. As long as you follow the pin numbers, you'll be fine.
wow, what year is yours? mines 85
and, yes - if you follow his sheet - it will be fine. it just scared me when I went to pull D15 and it was blue - not green. had to make sure what was what.
To give Darth some credit, he does specify the correct wires to use for the injectors. He just has the colors for the ones to delete backwards. As long as you follow the pin numbers, you'll be fine.
To be honest it really doesn't matter on the injector wiring. Both injector outputs from the 7730 fire at the same time; thus all 6 injectors fire at the same time. So it really doesn't matter how you have them hooked up to the ECM.
well, my next stumblingblock: the crank sensor since I am also adding the DIS, I need to wire this in also. I went to the local "u-pull-it" yard, and cut off the connectors for the DIS module. took em home, and compared them to my schematic (89 baretta) and noticed the 3-pin crank position sensor was wired different than the schematic shows. in the schematic, it shows 2 wires, and I guess a shielding sleeve wired to the center post - using all 3 connectors. on the one I brought home - there are only 2, one of them being the center post. so, I wnet thru the PDF's Darth had posted, and noticed on the 93 Firebird - it 2 wires, one of them being the center post. and, checking more into this - looks like they used a twisted pair instead of sheilding. and - the thing that makes me worry is: the way its labelled in the PDF. the post are "A C B" not "A B C" like all the others. is this a typo on one of them?
so, the Q: can I use the twisted pair connector as is? are there different crank sensors & different DIS modules? I expect not, they are the same, just 2 different approaches for noise suppression. on the connection between them
well, my next stumblingblock: the crank sensor since I am also adding the DIS, I need to wire this in also. I went to the local "u-pull-it" yard, and cut off the connectors for the DIS module. took em home, and compared them to my schematic (89 baretta) and noticed the 3-pin crank position sensor was wired different than the schematic shows. in the schematic, it shows 2 wires, and I guess a shielding sleeve wired to the center post - using all 3 connectors. on the one I brought home - there are only 2, one of them being the center post. so, I wnet thru the PDF's Darth had posted, and noticed on the 93 Firebird - it 2 wires, one of them being the center post. and, checking more into this - looks like they used a twisted pair instead of sheilding. and - the thing that makes me worry is: the way its labelled in the PDF. the post are "A C B" not "A B C" like all the others. is this a typo on one of them?
so, the Q: can I use the twisted pair connector as is? are there different crank sensors & different DIS modules? I expect not, they are the same, just 2 different approaches for noise suppression. on the connection between them
Just use the twisted pair of wires as-is. Most of the time this is what I find on 3.1 DIS systems; no shield wire.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: just use the twisted pair of wires as-is. Most of the time this is what I find on 3.1 DIS systems; no shield wire.
-ryan
thanks - thought that was the way to go.
anyways - while wiring up the rest of the DIS system - I was totally amazed that ALL of the existing Fiero distributer wiring transfers, wire color & all to the DIS module, and, for the power, the remaining EGR wires (A & D) work perfectly. the only thing that needs to be added is the twisted pair from the crank sensor to the DIS module. I thought this was gonna be a maze of wires. removing my A/C is more complicated than switching to the DIS.
and, yes, I am just going blindly step by step with no "pre made" plan.... a rough idea - but no plan.....
anyways - while wiring up the rest of the DIS system - I was totally amazed that ALL of the existing Fiero distributer wiring transfers, wire color & all to the DIS module, and, for the power, the remaining EGR wires (A & D) work perfectly. the only thing that needs to be added is the twisted pair from the crank sensor to the DIS module. I thought this was gonna be a maze of wires. removing my A/C is more complicated than switching to the DIS.
and, yes, I am just going blindly step by step with no "pre made" plan.... a rough idea - but no plan.....
GM has been kind to us in keeping with the same color wires that serve the same function across car/truck and engine lines. Sure beats some imports I remember installing remote starts into that had sometimes as much as 8 wires under the dash that were all the same color but all had different functions!
Darth, sorry if these questions have already been asked but:
1. Does this upgrade still allow the "Check Engine" light to function like stock ?
2. Do you require a "core" ECU for this upgrade ?
Thanks
1) YES
2) I'm not sure what you're asking. A core implies that you are buying a 7730 ECM upgrade "kit" from someone; which none are being sold by me or anyone else that I am aware of. If you are going to do this upgrade or have it done by someone else, then you will either need to supply the 7730 ECM or pay for the purchase of one. Then you will need the mem-cal out of this ECM reprogrammed for the application. If your 7730 ECM doesn't come with a compatible V6 mem-cal, you will have to buy one seperately.
OK - I was unsure that, to make this purchase from you, if i needed to send you an ECU with $$$ and you send me the new ECU, or do I just send you $$$ ? i think you answered it though. Thank you
[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 01-21-2008).]
Darth, I just wanted to be sure I got the right ECM. I have a label on mine that has:
SERV. NO. 16196404 BFAU
*86BFAUM832210326*
and the MEMCAL reads DELCO BFAU 0172
I got this out of a Z-16 Beretta.....not sure what year, but an earlier post with an ECM look-up link shows this as a '91-'93 PFI LHO. The MEMCAL code doesn't match what the link has tho'. I know I read somewhere in this thread that there might be a company making a crank-trigger that could be used to convert the original Fiero 2.8 to use the DIS feature? Any line on this? Do you know who makes this? Lastly, can someone tell me how to get that darned distributor plug / oil pump drive out of a 3.1? I fought with two very exposed units on partially dismantled 3.1's but could not get them to pull out of the block, they spun freely, but would not lift out!
Darth, I just wanted to be sure I got the right ECM. I have a label on mine that has:
SERV. NO. 16196404 BFAU
*86BFAUM832210326*
and the MEMCAL reads DELCO BFAU 0172
I got this out of a Z-16 Beretta.....not sure what year, but an earlier post with an ECM look-up link shows this as a '91-'93 PFI LHO. The MEMCAL code doesn't match what the link has tho'. I know I read somewhere in this thread that there might be a company making a crank-trigger that could be used to convert the original Fiero 2.8 to use the DIS feature? Any line on this? Do you know who makes this? Lastly, can someone tell me how to get that darned distributor plug / oil pump drive out of a 3.1? I fought with two very exposed units on partially dismantled 3.1's but could not get them to pull out of the block, they spun freely, but would not lift out!
Thanks
I dunno - dont sound right.... last 4 numbers should be 7730
Darth, I just wanted to be sure I got the right ECM. I have a label on mine that has:
SERV. NO. 16196404 BFAU
*86BFAUM832210326*
and the MEMCAL reads DELCO BFAU 0172
I got this out of a Z-16 Beretta.....not sure what year, but an earlier post with an ECM look-up link shows this as a '91-'93 PFI LHO. The MEMCAL code doesn't match what the link has tho'. I know I read somewhere in this thread that there might be a company making a crank-trigger that could be used to convert the original Fiero 2.8 to use the DIS feature? Any line on this? Do you know who makes this? Lastly, can someone tell me how to get that darned distributor plug / oil pump drive out of a 3.1? I fought with two very exposed units on partially dismantled 3.1's but could not get them to pull out of the block, they spun freely, but would not lift out!
Thanks
I haven't seen this ECM service number before, but the PROM BCC looks valid for this application. Does this computer you have look like the 7730 ECM I have pictured in this first post of this thread? If so, we might be able to use it (this might be one of those cases where GM updated the ECM for an application and changed the service number).
EDIT TO ADD: I just checked and I do have a stock BFAU chip program on file and it does appear to be compatible with the 7730 ECM; so the computer and mem-cal you have SHOULD work for this application.
-ryan
[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-22-2008).]
Thanks Darth. It does look exactly like the one in the first post. So far I seem to be in business! Now to just figure out a crank trigger upgrade for the 2.8. (without pulling the motor for a crank swap)
Anyone happen to remember what page of this thread that the car list that these came in was posted? I've only got a few minutes of internet time a day and was therefore hesitant to go digging through all 12 pages myself.
Anyone happen to remember what page of this thread that the car list that these came in was posted? I've only got a few minutes of internet time a day and was therefore hesitant to go digging through all 12 pages myself.
JazzMan
lol - nope...but, I think it was within the first 3.
but - over all - I think the easy way is to look for alum headed 3.1 MPFI engines - the ones with the wide flat upper plenum. tho - these wont have the right code mask - unless you plan on DIS also. finding a distributer based one is not an easy find. in my local u-pull-it - I have only seen ONE V6 firebird.....and it was to new...was also DIS....
Here is the list from Advance Auto: (EDIT: not all of these had the 7730 with every engine available. My 87 Century has a Duke with a different ECM. The V6 version had it though.)
hey i bought a bin file from you and im trying to wire up the 7730 im a little confused on the diagram for intance, it says to move pin A4 to GF9 how do i tell what pin is A4 or even GF9 ????????????????????????????????? im sure this was coverd but i cant seem to find it?
hey i bought a bin file from you and im trying to wire up the 7730 im a little confused on the diagram for intance, it says to move pin A4 to GF9 how do i tell what pin is A4 or even GF9 ????????????????????????????????? im sure this was coverd but i cant seem to find it?
if you look on the back of the connectors, you will see the letters. they are on the outter corners. but, the confusing part is the new connector. the "G" is the yellow one. the "B" is one of the 2 black ones. once you spot it, you'll see. bright light helps
Just a heads up for DIS converters. I just found out that a place makes CNC machined external universal crank triggers. The are going to be making more available shortly. The only way (so far) I found to get them was the 60*V6 store for $130.00. I am e-mailing them directly to see if they are available at other places also. The guy from this place TCE was very nice to me and responded very quickly.
Just a heads up for DIS converters. I just found out that a place makes CNC machined external universal crank triggers. The are going to be making more available shortly. The only way (so far) I found to get them was the 60*V6 store for $130.00. I am e-mailing them directly to see if they are available at other places also. The guy from this place TCE was very nice to me and responded very quickly.
awesome. just so y'all know: the only extra wire you need to run for DIS is in fact the crank trigger. the existing 2.8 distributer wires are EXACTLY the same - you just move them to a new connector. and, use the power wires from the EGR solenoid for the DIS power, since the 2.8 EGR solenoid is abandoned with the 7730.
[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 01-27-2008).]
awesome. just so y'all know: the only extra wire you need to run for DIS is in fact the crank trigger. the existing 2.8 distributer wires are EXACTLY the same - you just move them to a new connector. and, use the power wires from the EGR solenoid for the DIS power, since the 2.8 EGR solenoid is abandoned with the 7730. actually - you dont even need the 7730 to run the DIS. with JUST the crank trigger & the DIS block, you can run DIS with a Fiero ECM
Please explain! I have the SFI 3400 stuff in a box in the basement.
No you can't. The code mask used in the Fiero ECMs is set up to interface with distributors only. DIS systems have different timing reference points and spark dwell times which aren't 100% compatible with distributor based systems. If you want to run DIS, then you will need to be running the 7730 or other DIS-compatible ECM.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: No you can't. The code mask used in the Fiero ECMs is set up to interface with distributors only. DIS systems have different timing reference points and spark dwell times which aren't 100% compatible with distributor based systems. If you want to run DIS, then you will need to be running the 7730 or other DIS-compatible ECM.
-ryan
bummer. it sure looked like it sofar. I was basing on the amazing consistancy I have been seeing in the different setups I have been looking at, while wiring in my 7730. especially the 3.1 Camaro, which is dist based, using what looks like a classic ignition module, running on the 7730. I was thinking the backward compatibility for that might also be a forward compatibility for us.
You can run a distributor engine using the 7730 and appropriate code mask (like the $8D), or you can change code masks (say, to the $A1) and run a DIS engine with the 7730
Originally posted by Will: You can run a distributor engine using the 7730 and appropriate code mask (like the $8D), or you can change code masks (say, to the $A1) and run a DIS engine with the 7730
yup - I was just assuming the actual signals were as consistant as everything else. but, I guess I should have looked into the part numbers for 7730 igntion modules vs Fiero ignition modules before saying anything. because by looking at the schematics - the DIS module was just an outgrowth of the igntion module. and, with GM being super nice about consistancy....or - to lazy to redesign , assumed the the dist referance & EST would be the same. because that is the only feed from the ECM.
Don't DIS engines fire on the exhaust stroke too for emissions purposes? That's why there are 3 coil packs with 2 plugs on them. Is it 1+4, 2+5 and 3+6? That way when #4 fire on combustion stroke, #1 fires on exhaust stroke and vice versa...
Don't DIS engines fire on the exhaust stroke too for emissions purposes? That's why there are 3 coil packs with 2 plugs on them. Is it 1+4, 2+5 and 3+6? That way when #4 fire on combustion stroke, #1 fires on exhaust stroke and vice versa...
not for emmision purposes - but, because its an easier design. it just happens to help emisions also. instead of having 1 coil for each cyl, there is one coil for each pair of opposing cyls. the spark plug wires are connected to each end of the one coil. so, when it fires the one coil, it sparks 2 wires. it is also easier on the coil. and keeps the plugs cleaner.
yup - I was just assuming the actual signals were as consistant as everything else. but, I guess I should have looked into the part numbers for 7730 igntion modules vs Fiero ignition modules before saying anything. because by looking at the schematics - the DIS module was just an outgrowth of the igntion module. and, with GM being super nice about consistancy....or - to lazy to redesign , assumed the the dist referance & EST would be the same. because that is the only feed from the ECM.
The signals serve the same purpose, but as was stated above, the timing is different.
Originally posted by Will: The signals serve the same purpose, but as was stated above, the timing is different.
while I believe Darth - I am still digging on my own to see what the actual difference is. From what I have seen on the MegaSquirt site, the is no difference. But - MegaSquirt is also designed to handle either also.
the timing is handled my the "module" in each. its the "adavnce" which comes from the ECM. on the white wire. that is the only thing that comes from the ECM. the timing advance.
But the ECM modulates the coil signal relative to the reference pulses provided by the module...
yes, and again - where I am just assuming compatibity between the 2 systems. the one coming from the pick-up coil, and the one coming from the crank trigger. both read in the ignition module. and, this is where I see the problem - the crank trigger has a 7th pulse - 10* off of TDC #1. I dunno if the dist referance is a raw signal of 7 pulses or a signal of 6 pulses created by the module. I guess just hooking up and oscilliscope to the white wire & the a 2nd pick-up on the purple/white wire would answer this instantly. but, after doing more looking around - that 7th pulse is the why the Fiero ECM wont work. looking at the megasquirt info some more - I see the ECM receives the 7th pulse - which means 2 things: 1> the Fiero ECM would be mighty confused by the 7th pulse 2> the DIS enabled ECM has a clue as to when TDC #1 is - unlike the Fiero ECM.
oh - another reason it wont work - them referance pulses on the Fiero are genarated by the pick-up coil - which twists with timing adjustments, while the crank trigger is 100% fixed.
anyways - luckily - swapping in the 7730 is way easy sofar anyways. the re-use of the Fiero EGR solenoid wires to carry the knock & fan controls means the additional wiring is super easy & accessable.
a rough idea - but no plan.....
