No big deal if you need to re-tune. You've probably wrapped your head around what works, whats needed and what you don't need to touch. So you can start over, well informed of what you're going to need to attack.
I've been working with tunerproRT for many, many years. It really is a pretty dam awesome program. For tuning fuel trims, I usually wire my wide band O2 sensor straight to an unused 0-5V input so that it logs in the datastream. Sometimes I can just wire it into something like a deleted corrosivity sensor input, or deleted EGR feedback, but often I have to liven up an unused input, add a read from that pin, and add the value to the datastream. It sounds like a lot, but once its done, tuning gets way easier!
Then, in tunerpro, I create a datastream variable that looks at the current fueling corrections, (INT + BLM) and the end result from the wide band, and makes a correction factor. I use a hystegram to log the averages of this correction factor into a table scaled similarly to the main VE table, then export the data to Excel and have it build me a new VE table based on the one I used when logging and the correction factors. I smooth out the table, then its good to go. I can usually nail it down in 2-3 log and program sessions. If you are interested in this process I can probably help out. But, I don't know how what your process and help is like already.
No big deal if you need to re-tune. You've probably wrapped your head around what works, whats needed and what you don't need to touch. So you can start over, well informed of what you're going to need to attack.
I'm paying someone to do the tuning. He's having to start over.
Everything else you just said is pretty much gibberish to me ... I gotta get educated on how to use TunerPro...
Ho-hum --- another summer pissed away. The SD4 is not all it's cracked up to be.
Sorry to hear that. I was hoping yours would be 'purring like a kitten' or a tiger by now, so as to give me some hope for my SD4 build. I'm finding it frustrating just finding the right parts sometimes. I ordered a bunch of parts from Summit then ended up sending half of them back because there were wrong, didn't fit, etc.
Times like tihs when I miss my old Impala SS. Just buy a new LT-1 Stroker crate engine, drop it in, and off you go.
Sorry to hear that. I was hoping yours would be 'purring like a kitten' or a tiger by now, so as to give me some hope for my SD4 build.
If you can find the parts, putting it together is not the problem. There's little documentation on what plugs to use, plug gaps, timing to use etc. You go with "common sense" and get it running, but you're never sure if it's as "right" as it could be. We're still working on getting the tune for the fuel injection, but winter is on my doorstep.
SD4 gets HORRIBLE gas mileage if you put your foot in it around town, fast starts at the lights or really boogying with it. (about 50 miles on 1/2 of an 84 tank) BUT it is hard to drive this engine slow when it's driving reasonably well. About 20-25mpg cruising on the highway in 5th gear at 70 mph.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 11-06-2014).]
I LOVE this thread !! I'm building a Duke very similar to this motor build but a different car and have a few questions. I'm using the SD4 iron head and the Edelbrock SD4 intake, what distributor did you use (HEI) that fit under the intake? I have the motor almost done but just found this site and love it. If you have time, I could PM you my questions. Thanks for building this as it helps me decide how to go with the next build (SD4 aluminum head)
I LOVE this thread !! I'm building a Duke very similar to this motor build but a different car and have a few questions. I'm using the SD4 iron head and the Edelbrock SD4 intake, what distributor did you use (HEI) that fit under the intake?
For a carb'd engine, the big cap HEI fits, but is tight and awkward to work with once it's in the car. An external coil small cap HEI (w/vaccum advance) from a carb'd 1982 Citation w/Duke engine should work. It has the weights and springs you can change to tailor the advance curve.
You can always use the "big cap" one from a carb'd Pontiac/Jeep with 151 Duke engine. (have the HEI I used in a box since I switched to TBI and computer controlled distributor) (generic Proform pic below) http://www.summitracing.com.../pro-67093/overview/
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
Not much interest in any of this?? But someone paints their GT yellow and there's 5 pages of comments?
Here's what I did on the interior. It was completely removed and a thorough cleaning of the door panels and all other components was undertaken. The floor mats and carpeting was steam cleaned. The sun-faded "blue" speaker grills were recovered with new speaker fabric. The shifter surround and shifter plate were reglued.
While the interior was out, sound proofing was installed as well as a new stereo system. To still maintain a "factory" look a Pontiac CD player was installed, but high-end equipment was used in all hidden locations. New Clearwater speakers were installed in the seat headrests and Infinity component speakers went in the dash.
A factory sub-woofer housing with a Tang-band sub went into the factory location.
To power the sub, a Xtant 1.1i 100 watt mono amp was used. This tiny amp really delivers and is perfect for the job because it can be installed under the passenger seat. Complete stereo writeup here: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000031.html
When I received the car, the radio surround was terribly warped and needed to repaired or replaced.
The lack of an oil pressure gauge in the instrument cluster REALLY bothered me because I consider that the MOST important gauge to have. That's why I installed GT gauges and a new radio surround. It's "factory", looks correct, does the job and I needed to replace the warped radio surround anyway. I still have a 2nd voltmeter in the tach, but that's not a big bother.
I never did like the original T-bar type automatic shifter and most others eithers are either too big (Cobra head type) or look wrong (aftermarket aluminum). I found something perfect from 84-96 Corvette - a small size, top-button, dark grey leather wrapped knob that suits the car's interior perfectly. This is smaller than a similar design used in other GMs like Cavaliers, Grand AMs etc. I mounted it on a shortened shifter shaft and installed a new leather boot I purchased from Rodney Dickman.
The previous owner sold the original "mint" Indy seats. Although the Mr Mike's leathers were nice, I'd have preferred a set of originals, but another set of mint seats are few and far between. As luck would have it, we found some OEM red embossed Indy seat fabric which I purchased and had sent off to Mr Mike. Mike did up a beautiful set of repro Indy seats. I cleaned up the rusty seat rails and repainted them and bought the proper light grey color recliner covers to replace the incorrect dark grey ones the seats in the Indy came with. Once assembled, only an Indy purist would notice that these are not the original seats. The only difference is that the backs of the seats aren't grey fabric like the originals.
The terrible condition of the sunvisors and headliner required that they be replaced. I bought new sunvisors and a headliner recover kit from the Fiero Store. It was a bit of work, but I successfully recovered and reinstalled the headliner and the new visors. I also added the coathooks - 84's didn't have any.
sorry about your efi issues,, What was the reasoning with going with/back to an "o.e.m." ecu? With this engine, big ports,(head and intake) big flow.. why not got multi port.. getting the fuel out of that large intake plenum , that at the rpm you'll most likely be running at 75% of the time, will just puddle fuel on the intake floor.. a simple missing tooth wheel behind/infront(depending on room, {junkyard crawl part) of the balancer you could even have sequential EFI , injectors and injector harness are only a junkyard away.. 4cly harness and 3800 s/c injectors.. measure the intake port spacing and you might find an oem fuel rail that work is off a quad4 or a echotech , then just have the injector bungs welded to the intake.. sell that fancy "fast" TBI unit, and get a 82-88 CCC-q-jet and take the venturi guts out, and now you have a 4 barrel Throttle body with a Throttle position sensor , real cheap,, and won't be to big,, and if you leave the venturi gut alone, it'll work just like every q-jet only opening the secondaries when the engine needs it or you mash the pedal to wide open.. you just might need an adapter if that intake is only drilled for a square bore carb baseplate.. many others have used the 4.0 ford v6 explorer throttle body..
Pretty big quote just to ask that question. No. The stock sunroof - just painted on the topside to body color.
About the FI system. Easier said than done. Not a lot of room for individual injectors etc. otherwise Pontiac would have done it. As it is, NO Duke has anything other than carb or TBI.
FAST system's ECM just flooded my engine. The conclusion was I had a case of "there's nothing wrong - but it just won't work right". Whole story here: http://www.cpgnation.com/fo...day-not-today.22587/
It's running decent enough with the 7165 ECM - just a real bad bog when you punch it WOT that I can't get rid off. Plus I have a knock sensor, ignition control etc. that the FAST did not have (fuel control only). I think I'll need to use a turtle to reduce some of the volume in that huge open plenum.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 05-04-2016).]
Pretty big quote just to ask that question. No. The stock sunroof - just painted on the topside to body color.
About the FI system. Easier said than done. Not a lot of room for individual injectors etc. otherwise Pontiac would have done it. As it is, NO Duke has anything other than carb or TBI. (edit: oops - 1991 Jeeps had port injection Dukes - can't find any details though)
FAST system's ECM just flooded my engine. The conclusion was I had a case of "there's nothing wrong - but it just won't work right". Whole story here: http://www.cpgnation.com/fo...day-not-today.22587/
It's running decent enough with the 7165 ECM - just a real bad bog when you punch it WOT that I can't get rid off. Plus I have a knock sensor, ignition control etc. that the FAST did not have (fuel control only). I think I'll need to use a turtle to reduce some of the volume in that huge open plenum.
I am going efi and multi port.. there is tons of room.. Pontiac/g.m. didn't because of cost.. and it wasn't needed on a stock duke.. low rpm. good mpg. and didn't need to get every ounce of power and m.p.g. out of it, at that time, besides the olds quad made it pointless for them to invest anymore money in the duke.. anyways good, luck.. for now my indy will have a o.e.m. 2.5 built up some until I can afford a s/d and I'd really like to have the alum block that takes the chevy motorsports smallblock 2.2. head.
as far as the fast efi flooding your engine, it's because the injectors are to big.. for the air flow velocity in that intake/head ports.. at the rpm you'll be running most of the time.. should be interesting if the oem hacked ecu can control that tbi t/b better. or if the same problem will be there, to much fuel parking itself on the intake floor..
[This message has been edited by E.Furgal (edited 02-07-2015).]
I look forward to seeing that in your build thread.
There was a beautiful setup on eBay some time back. He wanted big money but wouldn't include the "small bits". And I wasn't sure if it would fit the engine bay or what I could use to control it at the time. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...130314-1-084387.html
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 10-06-2015).]
The transmission in the Indy is getting harder to shift, sometimes almost impossible.
I've checked the shifter mechanism itself for broken welds/cracks. Everything's OK. The cables are new Dickman units. I disconnected them from trans. The shifter/cables work freely. I tried shifting the transmission manually. It's notchy and binding somewhat. Won't go into 1st at times. I suppose there's an internal wear problem on the forks or something IN the transmission.
I also ordered the same Bully clutch I have in my GT. I'm tired of that 'heavy" effort Spec clutch I have in there... Because of the Bully pressure plate redesign, the pedal effort is light while still giving great clamping force. Bully Clutch: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/129057.html
EDIT: cradle taken out May 21
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 06-13-2016).]
I had issues with shifting the old Getrag. We split the case and all the gears and differential looked OK. The problem must be with worn shift forks or something else (synchros replaced not long ago).
Below is a NOS FWD Getrag 5-speed I picked up last year. I had the Fiero's Getrag bellhousing half of the case swapped over.
Of course, now is also a good time to refresh the cosmetics of the engine too. I needed to replace a leaking rear main seal. Did the oil pan gasket at the same time. Dirt and grime was washed off and the engine block spray-bombed Gloss Black.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
You have to do the engine bay and cradle too! It's the easiest time to do all this. (axles will be cleaned up once transmission is back on cradle) I'm amazed how many people skip this step - too excited about doing their engine swap I guess.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
I got my flywheel back from resurfacing and assembly balancing.
The flywheel HAD been zero balanced before, so I was surprised to see it needed anything at all. The clutch is brand new, but even it needed a tweak to bring it into neutral balance. This thing should be glass smooth to 8000 rpm!
The rear main seal had a slight leak and needed to be changed. Easiest way to get it out is to drill 2 small holes in the seal and screw in 2 metal screws. You can then pull it out with a claw hammer.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
Half my O-rings were the wrong type and I DO remember the guy at the A/C shop matching them up saying "these are a little thinner, but they should still seal fine." NOT!! What a lot of grief it has caused.
I've run the system to a vacuum of 20 lbs. It's still holding 1/2 hour later so far...
It's up and running. Yay! - no oil leaks anywhere (new rear main seal, axle seals, transmission halves joint, oil pan gasket)
The clutch and FWD Getrag transmission are working great too. It's getting better as it 'breaks in' - the Getrag was tight and notchy at first because it is NEW.
I noticed a side benefit of the FWD Getrag is shorter shift throws. This is likely a result of the transmission's shorter shift shaft that Rodney's kit bolts on to.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 04-23-2020).]
I always had problems with the A/C after converting to R134a. (new compressor, O-rings, orifice, accumulator etc.) The A/C worked great, but the charge wouldn't last more than a week.
When I dropped the cradle to replace the clutch and transmission, I found a cracked A/C hose tube at the compressor end. Got that welded. I also installed a new condenser I had bought a couple of years ago. And I replaced all the O-rings in the system with the correct ones this time.
It's now working and is blowing SO cold with R152a that it can freeze you out of the car… It appears I have finally fixed ALL the leaks once and for all.
Working on a MPFI system using the Edelbrock 2-bbl intake. The manifold was designed for mechanical fuel injection nozzles. Luckily the bosses are beefy enough to be drilled for electronic injectors.
Edit: added this pic I found online
Here's a mockup of the fuel rail using plastic tube. Have to duplicate it with aluminum.
2-bbl throttle body is from a Dodge 3.9L V6 - twin 42mm bores. The nice part is the TB topend fits a 4-bbl air cleaner - so my carb bonnet fits.
I did an Autocad drawing for the carb intake manifold-to-Throttle Body adapter and had it water-jetted. The adapter bolts to the manifold. Then the Throttle Body bolts to the adapter.
The injector nozzles are dead center where they should be.
Manifold was drilled using a ShopSmith. We started with the center ones.
They were easy. The end ones have 2 angles to get right.
Injectors are tiny Bosch EV14 injectors with extension. 48lb Bosch part number 0 280 158 211 Bosch debuted this size injector in 2012, and without them I couldn't build this system.
Spray pattern of these Bosch injectors.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
Will you need a new fuel pump for those injectors? What ECU / how are you going to tune ?
Same pump, same 1227165 ECM I have in the car right now running the FAST throttle body injection (at 43psi) Go back one page in this thread. Also here: http://www.cpgnation.com/fo...-today.22587/page-10
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-03-2016).]
Amazing thread and awesome work! I really enjoyed reading this, thanks for sharing your knowledge and work and lots of pictures Keep up the great work!
Interesting read and nice car, sorry to see how much trouble you've had with the engine and fueling. I have a race shop about an hour north of you and I road race an '87 GT. I worked at Guyon Racing in Calgary when we built Art McKenzie's rally Fiero with the SD4 engines back in the late '80s and early '90s and still have an SD mechanical fuel injection system set up for alcohol. I do a fair bit of EFI work including tuning and am surprised that you've had trouble finding good tuners in Calgary. I built a 2.0 engine for a sports racer with a race cam that idles at 1000 rpm and makes 200 hp at 7500 rpm that runs the SDS system (local company), very easy to tune and designed for engines like yours that are closer to race than street. I've tuned FAST and AEM Infinity systems for race-cammed engines, wasn't all that pleased with their tech support and ended up doing things my way to make their systems work, and although very capable both systems are quite a bit more complex and harder to tune than the SDS. I usually end up doing the driveability tuning after the engine/car gets off the dyno, seems most tuners just want to do the WOT stuff.
Looks like you're on the right track with the MPFI but the 48 lb injectors are a little big if you're going with that size unless you're planning to boost it, which isn't likely with the 10.5:1 compression ratio. WIth the previous 160 hp reading at the wheels with the auto you're probably in the 220 hp range at the crank, so I'd suggest around the 32 lb range, still enough to supply 260 hp but easier to meter at low rpm and loads. I also do show quality custom headers so if you're still having sealing issues and would like a header with a better flange, cleaner welding and proper sized secondary tubing, let me know and we'll talk Fiero.
[This message has been edited by mender (edited 01-06-2017).]
Looks like you're on the right track with the MPFI but the 48 lb injectors are a little big if you're going with that size unless you're planning to boost it, which isn't likely with the 10.5:1 compression ratio. WIth the previous 160 hp reading at the wheels with the auto you're probably in the 220 hp range at the crank, so I'd suggest around the 32 lb range, still enough to supply 260 hp but easier to meter at low rpm and loads. I also do show quality custom headers so if you're still having sealing issues and would like a header with a better flange, cleaner welding and proper sized secondary tubing, let me know and we'll talk Fiero.
Thanks. I talked a bit with you about your car at last spring's Didsbury show.
If you don't have a V8 Mustang, Camaro, Corvette or a Ricer - there's no tuners here. I certainly don't know anyone local using TunerPro RT which is the only way to program the setup I have. The 48# rating is at 58psi. I'll be running 42psi.
I have to get this installed and see where I stand.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 01-21-2017).]
Thanks. I talked a bit with you about your car at last spring's Didsbury show.
If you don't have a V8 Mustang, Camaro, Corvette or a Ricer - there's no tuners here. I certainly don't know anyone local using TunerPro RT which is the only way to program the setup I have. The 48# rating is at 58psi. I'll be running 42psi.
I have to get this installed and see where I stand.
That still puts the rating at about 41 lbs, enough to support over 300 hp. Not the end of the world but everything's easier when the numbers are closer.
Have to get ends of fuel rail bored/tapped for ORB (O-Ring Boss) fuel fittings. Then bead blast and powder coat intake, adapter/spacer, alt/dogbone mount and throttle bracket.
The Edelbrock manifold was intended for mechanical fuel injection nozzles of that time. This arrangement could not possibly fit without the new compact Bosch EV14 EFI injectors available today.
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 09-02-2023).]
... I worked at Guyon Racing in Calgary when we built Art McKenzie's rally Fiero with the SD4 engines back in the late '80s and early '90s and still have an SD mechanical fuel injection system set up for alcohol.
mender: you have a PM...
A video clip of Art McKenzie's SD4 car...
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 07-11-2017).]
Finally started installation of the Multi-port EFI system I put together. I have to modify my wiring harness and install new connectors while on the engine.
Here's the 2-bbl and 4-bbl manifolds together to show how huge the open plenum is on the 4-bbl intake.
Just a quick test fit to see how it looks in the engine bay. :-)
[This message has been edited by fierosound (edited 11-12-2019).]
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by now, so as to give me some hope for my SD4 build. I'm finding it frustrating just finding the right parts sometimes. I ordered a bunch of parts from Summit then ended up sending half of them back because there were wrong, didn't fit, etc.
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