Next question, I am running fuel lines from the tank. I assume the fuel feed and return go to this LS swap filter I got from Jegs, but I am not sure about the tank vent. I'm wondering if it goes to the device hooked to the intake , (see photos)? This is standard on the LFX motor, but I'm not sure what it is or what it does. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Daryl
The tank vent should go to the filler neck just like stock. This makes sure theair when fueling has a place for the air to escape, once that is blocked off when tank is full, is what makes the gas station pump automatically shut off from the increased pressure.
[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 07-21-2020).]
The tank vent should go to the filler neck just like stock. This makes sure theair when fueling has a place for the air to escape, once that is blocked off when tank is full, is what makes the gas station pump automatically shut off from the increased pressure.
ChuckR That is not the vent I am talking about. There are 3 lines coming convergence from the fuel pump/fuel gauge sender on is fuel supply to the engine, one is the return to the tank, the 3rd is a tank vent, right? That 3rd line is the one I am curious about.
Yes that is the line I am talking about as well. It goes to the small vent line on the filler neck.
This is the Fiero Filler neck, the vent line from the tank goes to the small line on the filler neck.
This is the impala filler neck, it too has the vent line on the filler neck. so I am guessing that the vent line still would go to the filler neck and not to the EVAP.
I am not sure how to incorporate the EVAP system in this way, possibly do an EVAP delete? Or possibly try to Tee off the vent line? If you do not use the filler neck vent line it will need to be sealed off so that it is not a vapor release point / spill point.
[This message has been edited by ChuckR (edited 07-22-2020).]
ChuckR I realize that there is a vent on the filler neck, but there is another vent . According to Guru, it goes to a charcoal canister. What I am trying to determine is where it goes from there and if the canister can be deleted and the vent can go directly to the device pictured. I think it is called a purge valve. The second photo shows the vent I an referring to. The first photo is the purge valve.
On '87's and '88's, the vent from the fuel tank is supposed to go to the expansion tank between the right frame rail and the right quarter panel. IIRC, there's another connection on that volume that goes to the filler neck vent and/or purge system.
Yes that is the solenoid purge valve for the EVAP system, it does go to a canister.
I am not positive but the vent line should go in to this, have one line go to the EVAP solenoid, and one line go back to the filler neck vent. This is a guess, but the system needs to be closed. Or like I said above do an EVAP system delete, and when you have the ECU tuned have it ignore the EVAP codes and run the vent straight to the filler neck.
On '87's and '88's, the vent from the fuel tank is supposed to go to the expansion tank between the right frame rail and the right quarter panel. IIRC, there's another connection on that volume that goes to the filler neck vent and/or purge system.
Thanks for the info Will. Before deciding fieros were going to be my retirement hobby, I hadn't done much mechanic work since I was a teenager 45 years ago.
Yes that is the solenoid purge valve for the EVAP system, it does go to a canister.
I am not positive but the vent line should go in to this, have one line go to the EVAP solenoid, and one line go back to the filler neck vent. This is a guess, but the system needs to be closed. Or like I said above do an EVAP system delete, and when you have the ECU tuned have it ignore the EVAP codes and run the vent straight to the filler neck.
I wish California had common sense laws regulating engine swaps,...but they don't. I had to incorporate the evaporative system vent and purge on my LS4 swap. Basically I used a Monte Carlo evaporative system in the Fiero. Regardless of what the original Fiero had, it is now more like a 2006 Monte Carlo than a Fiero. No reprogramming necessary. For what it's worth, reprogramming is illegal on California engine swaps. Tuning is ok, as long as it does not interfere with emissions equipment. The car will still have to pass a smog inspection visually and run on the rollers with the diagnostic cable hooked up and tail pipe sniffer. Along with a fuel tank and cap pressure test. It would be difficult to program the computer to cheat the inspection.
Sorry I never think of the emissions passing as I live in a state without testing or inspections of any kind. It is silly that they are making you have 2006 emissions when your car is a 84-88. It should be as long as you are passing emissions based on the original car's footprint. If it is an improvement over the original design that should be a net gain regardless if it meets the 2006 standard that engine came with. One of the many reasons I will never live in CA. The laws out there are a freaking mess. Daryl is in AZ though, not sure what emissions he has there. It is simple enough to keep the EVAP canister though.
Sorry I never think of the emissions passing as I live in a state without testing or inspections of any kind. It is silly that they are making you have 2006 emissions when your car is a 84-88. It should be as long as you are passing emissions based on the original car's footprint. If it is an improvement over the original design that should be a net gain regardless if it meets the 2006 standard that engine came with. One of the many reasons I will never live in CA. The laws out there are a freaking mess. Daryl is in AZ though, not sure what emissions he has there. It is simple enough to keep the EVAP canister though.
I only wish I could feel the burden of getting away with the "sin" of no emissions standards For the record I think California is a mess. They have no idea how much better modern engine swaps would be for the environment. But they continue to push the crush old cars rather than improve the old cars mentality. In California environmentalism is a religion that does not tolerate blasphemy.
I wish California had common sense laws regulating engine swaps,...but they don't. I had to incorporate the evaporative system vent and purge on my LS4 swap. Basically I used a Monte Carlo evaporative system in the Fiero. Regardless of what the original Fiero had, it is now more like a 2006 Monte Carlo than a Fiero. No reprogramming necessary. For what it's worth, reprogramming is illegal on California engine swaps. Tuning is ok, as long as it does not interfere with emissions equipment. The car will still have to pass a smog inspection visually and run on the rollers with the diagnostic cable hooked up and tail pipe sniffer. Along with a fuel tank and cap pressure test. It would be difficult to program the computer to cheat the inspection.
Umm... Isn't tuning illegal? The tuned calibration is no longer the calibration that was included with the certified configuration. Likewise, any altered hard parts you're tuning for were not part of the certified configuration.
However, if they can't detect that you have a tuned calibration and all the other indications are good, then a tune is something you can get away with even if it's not strictly legal.
Umm... Isn't tuning illegal? The tuned calibration is no longer the calibration that was included with the certified configuration. Likewise, any altered hard parts you're tuning for were not part of the certified configuration.
However, if they can't detect that you have a tuned calibration and all the other indications are good, then a tune is something you can get away with even if it's not strictly legal.
Exactly. A tune does not always have to be race oriented. A tune can optimize the package. For example the transmission torque safety code, and speed govener. Checking for lean or rich points through the RPM range. A tune absolutely can ruin the emissions test as well. The best idea is to not even mess with the ECM. Get the car running with out mods. But in my case I was ordered to. I had to have the GM dealer refresh ALL of the computers so the all had the same vin number.
Exactly. A tune does not always have to be race oriented. A tune can optimize the package. For example the transmission torque safety code, and speed govener. Checking for lean or rich points through the RPM range. A tune absolutely can ruin the emissions test as well. The best idea is to not even mess with the ECM. Get the car running with out mods. But in my case I was ordered to. I had to have the GM dealer refresh ALL of the computers so the all had the same vin number.
Right... they required you to make it exactly the same as the original certified configuration.
Sorry I never think of the emissions passing as I live in a state without testing or inspections of any kind. It is silly that they are making you have 2006 emissions when your car is a 84-88. It should be as long as you are passing emissions based on the original car's footprint. If it is an improvement over the original design that should be a net gain regardless if it meets the 2006 standard that engine came with. One of the many reasons I will never live in CA. The laws out there are a freaking mess. Daryl is in AZ though, not sure what emissions he has there. It is simple enough to keep the EVAP canister though.
In Arizona, "collector cars" are exempt from emissions.
[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 07-23-2020).]
On '87's and '88's, the vent from the fuel tank is supposed to go to the expansion tank between the right frame rail and the right quarter panel. IIRC, there's another connection on that volume that goes to the filler neck vent and/or purge system.
Will, is this the tank you refer to the one in the photo? If so, I assume the vent from the tank goes to the bottom fitting and the top fitting goes back to the purge valve. Does that sound right?
I wish California had common sense laws regulating engine swaps,...but they don't. I had to incorporate the evaporative system vent and purge on my LS4 swap. Basically I used a Monte Carlo evaporative system in the Fiero. Regardless of what the original Fiero had, it is now more like a 2006 Monte Carlo than a Fiero. No reprogramming necessary. For what it's worth, reprogramming is illegal on California engine swaps. Tuning is ok, as long as it does not interfere with emissions equipment. The car will still have to pass a smog inspection visually and run on the rollers with the diagnostic cable hooked up and tail pipe sniffer. Along with a fuel tank and cap pressure test. It would be difficult to program the computer to cheat the inspection.
Just one more reason not to live in California. I visited as a kid. I had relatives in northern California. It was really nice then, and is probably still nice except for the regulations and such.
Right... they required you to make it exactly the same as the original certified configuration.
Not really, the ref wanted the vin numbers to match because he could force me to. The computers that needed to be reflashed included: Electronic Control Module Transmission Control Module Body Control module Anti-Lock Brake Control Module Radio Heater Ventilation Air Conditioning head unit Satellite receiver I understand the ECM and TCM but the rest is hard for me to explain or understand. He just wanted to see all of the computers have the same vin. I did not see what information he had access to, or if he could even verify the reflash was done, but he was very clear on taking the car to the Chevrolet dealer and have all the systems flashed with the vin number that I had the pinkslip for. I had to provide the receipt to prove I did the reflash. BTW I had the pink slip for the donor car for proof that it was not a theft. This ref hopefully is not typical of all refs. Again I won't argue that a tune can fail your inspection, be on the safe side and don't do it. But what is tuned and how it is tuned may not necessarily be an automatic fail.
There must have been some ignorance on the emissions agent's part, the modules will not communicate unless they are vin matched for the modules that require it, and some modules will deadline the car if they don't match up, which is why late model swaps are so complicated to begin with. If they're in the car working, they match. I identified the chip in my radio that contains the vin for direct matching, but if the programming is not the same, you'll have more, or fewer functions. This approach was used to add navigation, bluetooth and or backup cameras to stock radio boxes that did not have it, as the dealers often will not attempt the RPO add on, or don't have the skill on hand to do it. I have a few important backup modules in case an onboard module fails.
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
ChuckR I realize that there is a vent on the filler neck, but there is another vent . According to Guru, it goes to a charcoal canister. What I am trying to determine is where it goes from there and if the canister can be deleted and the vent can go directly to the device pictured. I think it is called a purge valve. The second photo shows the vent I an referring to. The first photo is the purge valve.
Are you planning to modify the pump assembly to adapt all of the appropriate stock components from the donor car? GM added a fuel pump control module to the 3.6L system around 09-10 so be sure to check into that if you are not aware of it.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-23-2020).]
Yes, the lfx, as does the lf3/lf4, requires a fuel pump control module (fpcm) that receives a CAN signal from the ecu which tells the fpcm what pressure to maintain from the low pressure in tank fuel pump, by way of a PWM signal so the high pressure mechanical fuel pump just off the front head has exactly what it needs. This is all for keeping the direct injection system happy.
Make sure your fpcm is vin matched to the ecu.
Make sure your in tank fuel pump is PWM capable as well.
Make sure you use sheilded twisted pair wire from fpcm to fuel pump for the PWM signal.
There must have been some ignorance on the emissions agent's part, the modules will not communicate unless they are vin matched for the modules that require it, and some modules will deadline the car if they don't match up, which is why late model swaps are so complicated to begin with. If they're in the car working, they match. I identified the chip in my radio that contains the vin for direct matching, but if the programming is not the same, you'll have more, or fewer functions. This approach was used to add navigation, bluetooth and or backup cameras to stock radio boxes that did not have it, as the dealers often will not attempt the RPO add on, or don't have the skill on hand to do it. I have a few important backup modules in case an onboard module fails.
Are you planning to modify the pump assembly to adapt all of the appropriate stock components from the donor car? GM added a fuel pump control module to the 3.6L system around 09-10 so be sure to check into that if you are not aware of it.
Not using the donor bcm or transmission control module . Just the ecm . Not using the donor fuel pump either.
[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 07-23-2020).]
Daryl, I keep seeing your adjustable coilovers. I went back through this thread again and I do not see if you ever said where they came from. I either am missing the post or it is not called out. In your pix i do not see them when you are asking about the rear sway bar, and then they are there in pix after. I am just curious as I want to get a parts list for replacing / refreshing my 88' suspension. Thanks!
Make sure you use sheilded twisted pair wire from fpcm to fuel pump for the PWM signal.
I find it hard to believe that anyone's actually had problems with this. The PWM is delivering motor power. Electronic noise is not going to have a measurable effect on the power delivered to the fuel pump.
I find it hard to believe that even crank sensor wiring needs TWSP... 10,000 RPM on a 58x wheel is only a 10kHz signal.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-24-2020).]
1. Reduce the possibility of a victim from receiving unwanted interference. 2. Reduce the possibility of an aggressor from emitting unwanted interference.
It's hard to imagine that a fuel pump (and its wires) could be a victim, but the "high" power involved means that it could become an aggressor quite easily.
I'm not sure at what frequency the PWM for the fuel pump operates, but PWM solenoids (e.g. auto transmission line pressure control) are typically in the 100-200 Hz range; I would expect anything that rejects 60 Hz powerline noise is safe from that.
The PWM may nominally switch in the audio frequency range, however, every time the switch transitions from on to off (or vice versa), the hit can excite resonant modes in the tens or hundreds of MHz. Of course, this is implementation-dependent.
I don't think anybody plans from the get-go to use special wiring (cause $$)... sounds like the kind of thing that is implemented following problems encountered in testing.
Daryl, I keep seeing your adjustable coilovers. I went back through this thread again and I do not see if you ever said where they came from. I either am missing the post or it is not called out. In your pix i do not see them when you are asking about the rear sway bar, and then they are there in pix after. I am just curious as I want to get a parts list for replacing / refreshing my 88' suspension. Thanks!
The coilovers are made from monroe struts from Rockauto and a cheap coil over kit for a Honda from Ebay. Kit costs under $40, but had to be enlarged on my lathe to fit over the strut.
The coilovers are made from monroe struts from Rockauto and a cheap coil over kit for a Honda from Ebay. Kit costs under $40, but had to be enlarged on my lathe to fit over the strut.
Coleman Racing is an excellent source for this. They sell the coil over components in an assortment of different sizes to tailor fit. I ordered the coils in the desired rate (275) from Summit. It was easier to navigate Coleman through their catalog as opposed to the search engine.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-25-2020).]
The PWM may nominally switch in the audio frequency range, however, every time the switch transitions from on to off (or vice versa), the hit can excite resonant modes in the tens or hundreds of MHz. Of course, this is implementation-dependent.
That also depends on how fast the ramp is... and there's no reason for it to be particularly fast. In fact, the faster it is, the more the inductive componets of the motor produce back EMF for those high frequency components of the signal.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-26-2020).]
Coleman Racing is an excellent source for this. They sell the coil over components in an assortment of different sizes to tailor fit. I ordered the coils in the desired rate (275) from Summit. It was easier to navigate Coleman through their catalog as opposed to the search engine.
Yes I see their website is less to be desired. I did order a catalog. Thanks for that!
Photos of my new vapor canister. When I ordered this on Amazon, it didn't say exactly how big it was or what it was made to fit, but I am really short on space in the engine compartment, so I'm thinking of trying it. What are your thoughts on such a small carbon vapor canister?
Photos of my new vapor canister. When I ordered this on Amazon, it didn't say exactly how big it was or what it was made to fit, but I am really short on space in the engine compartment, so I'm thinking of trying it. What are your thoughts on such a small carbon vapor canister?
That looks like it is from a lawn mower? I did not put my canister in the engine bay, I put it under the expansion tank. I can just barely see it through the side scoop.
When you consider the size of the original for the Fiero, and the typical size of what usually accompanies the 3.6L, I'd say it is severely under sized. There's a lot of expansion taking place in the tank, although not as much as in the donor vehicle because of the size of the tank. I'm recalling the amount of venting I observed in a Fiero upon removing the gas cap after the vent line clogged, it was quite a bit.
As for the tuning issue, it's real simple, two PCMs, an emissions PCM and a performance/edited PCM.
[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 07-29-2020).]
I'm trying to wrap my head around what is going on in this system. It is a closed system, so flow can't be too much. The whole purpose of the system, as I understand it, is to allow for expansion and contraction due to temperature changes and to prevent a vacuum to form as fuel is used in a closed system. That is about 4 or 5 liters of air displaced every 30 minutes . If all it is doing is absorbing fuel vapors from air, that isn't much fuel, or am I missing something?
Originally posted by Daryl M: If all it is doing is absorbing fuel vapors from air, that isn't much fuel, or am I missing something?
On a traditional car with a vented cap, it smells like fuel all the time because evaporation continues non-stop. I suppose if there was enough time, the tank would evaporate until it became empty.
So given enough time parked, and a sufficiently warm fuel temperature, I think the charcoal canister would eventually become loaded with gasoline. At the point it can't adsorb any more gasoline, it will start to smell like fuel outside the car, as gasoline goes straight out the vent.
So, I think the size of the canister would depend on how long you wish the car to remain odour-free when parked.
Once you run the engine and purge the canister, then the clock is reset back to zero.
I don't really know, I'm just thinking out loud.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 07-29-2020).]
For the record I think California is a mess. They have no idea how much better modern engine swaps would be for the environment. But they continue to push the crush old cars rather than improve the old cars mentality. In California environmentalism is a religion that does not tolerate blasphemy.
