Welcome to the One-Stop-Shop for swapping a 3800sc engine into a Fiero! You will likely not come across a more thorough collection of 3800sc fiero swap information, parts, diagrams, or videos than here.
What this thread is: A suggestion for a complete 3800sc Series II or Series III supercharged swap guide with a 4-speed automatic 4t65e-HD transmission. There are TWO COMPLETE ENGINE BUILDS detailed here: -A cheap and easy Series II direct drop-in swap (Build 1) -An all-out Series III supercharged build including changing camshafts, but not changing pistons/crank/bearings/rods (Build 2)
What this thread is NOT: -A pricing guide -A 3800 NA swap guide, though you will find much overlap -A 3800 turbo swap guide, though you will find much overlap -A computer (PCM/ECU) reprogramming or tuning guide -A bottom-end machining/assembly guide (pistons, connecting rods/bearings, piston rings, crankshaft/bearings) -An automatic to manual transmission swap guide -An all-encompassing Buick 3800 engine guide for any car but a fiero -A transmission rebuilding guide -A detailed manual transmission guide -Perfect
3800sc Assembly Diagrams and Torque Specs -Firing Order -Coolant and Fuel Lines -SUPERCHARGER, CONNECTIONS, AND ROUTINGS -HOW TO HOOK UP THE 4t65e TRANSMISSION -Exhaust Setup for Build 1 (below here is for build 2 only) -Torque Sequences -ENGINE EXPLODED VIEW ASSEMBLY DIAGRAMS -HOW A PCV SYSTEM WORKS WITH A NORTHSTAR THROTTLE BODY ON A SERIES III 3800SC -EXHAUST SETUP FOR BUILD 2 -4t65e Transmission
Disassembly, Reassembly and Final Fiero Installation Videos -Required for both Build 1 and Build 2 -Required for Build 2 -Engine Tear-down and rebuild instructions -Porting Heads -INSPECTING THE BOTTOM END (crank/bearings/connecting rods/bearings/pistons/piston rings)
Disclaimer: If you follow any instructions here, you assume 100% liability for your own build. NOTHING is guaranteed to work. If you blow up your engine, it is YOUR FAULT. Do not blindly follow this guide and buy parts until you feel you understand for yourself why and how everything about a 3800 engine works. This build thread is NOT BASED ON THE FACTORY INSTRUCTION MANUAL, but rather years of accumulated modification knowledge from across many companies, personal experience, and the internet. It might be helpful for you to buy a Buick 3800sc factory service manual.
That's a great list of parts however I think it's a bit misleading. Their are many different ways to do the 3800 swap depending on your abilities and finances. Honestly looking over your list I don''t think I used a single part from it to do any of my swaps.
How to pick out parts for your build: 3800 Performance and Specs of historical swaps All options for your engine swap will come down to cost and effort. This build thread details two specific paths. Use the charts and videos below to decide what power you want out and how much effort and money you are willing to invest into the project.
----------------------Modification Selection Chart------------------- The below chart shows the dyno wheel horsepower numbers AND quarter mile track times from different people's 3800 supercharged build setups found posted across the internet. The chart shows the modifications for each person's setup (camshafts, superchargers, cylinder heads, fuel type, boost, compression, etc.). The top of the chart also lists all available supercharged 3800 camshaft design specs. Generally, red colored cells indicate either bad performance or hard to achieve (expensive or lots of other supporting mods required), This chart shows ALL M90 3800sc build track times that are on various forums that I could find, which are linked.
Here my video indicates most common modifications available for the Fiero:
Here ZZP makes a short summary video of common modifications you can make to your 3800sc:
----------------Differences between 3800 Engines------------------ There are many variations of 3800 engines. There are 3 different series, supercharged and non-supercharged (NA). Virtually every engine has a different wiring harness and different parts between years, makes, and models. The ideal donor car or motor to buy is a 1998-2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. If you do not get an engine from a GTP, there are many parts listed below that you will need in addition, just to make it fit in a Fiero.
NOTE: DO NOT SWAP A SUPERCHARGER ONTO A 3800 NA (Naturally Aspirated) BLOCK UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING. THE COMPRESSION, PISTONS, AND RINGS ARE DIFFERENT.
----------------------M90 Gen 3 and Gen 5 supercharger specs------------------ Relevant M90 Supercharger Design and Performance Information: http://www.mscperformance.com/specpg2.html
NOTE: The pulley sizes here are for a mustang engine and do not apply to 3800's, but the rest of the info can be helpful. This is for a Series II/Gen3 supercharger. For Series III/Gen5, subtract approx. 40°F to temperatures here.
Here is a quote from Eaton about the performance of an M90 Gen5 supercharger: The 90-cubic inch Gen V supercharger is very compact. Its housing includes the throttle-body adaptor, crankcase ventilation plumbing, coolant passages, the evaporative emissions purge valve and the rotor drive mechanism. The drive mechanism is sealed and permanently lubricated, obviating the need for oil connections and eliminating a potential source of leaks. Moreover, the Gen V features all-cast components and a larger, low-restriction outlet port. The tuned inlet port is also less restrictive, compared to previous-generation superchargers, allowing a larger (75 millimeter) throttle body. As a result, more air is pumped by the supercharger through the Series III’s induction system. The Gen V’s rotor is finished with Abraidbable Powder Coating (APC) rather than epoxy. APC is a patented material containing graphite that is electrostatically applied to the rotor and baked on. As a result, the rotor requires less clearance within the supercharger housing, resulting in less leakage around its edges, greater airflow at a given operating speed and lower operating temperature. The Gen V’s rotor bearings have been enlarged to increase durability and reduce operating noise and vibration.
As a result, the Gen V operates at considerably higher efficiency than its predecessors. At wide open throttle, the Gen V turns at 700 fewer rpm (a 9 percent reduction), draws 13 percent less power from the crankshaft, decreases operating temperature 15 percent and increases volumetric efficiency 9 percent. For the customer, that means a 9 percent increase in horsepower (see product specifications), and best- in-class acceleration times for the Grand Prix.
Everyone's build will vary for sure depending on wants and needs, however for you to go through the trouble and list what worked for you is greatly appreciated. Thank you. It will, at the very least, give people an idea on what to expect and look for.
[This message has been edited by Spadesluck (edited 03-26-2017).]
BUILD 1: COMPLETE PARTS LIST FOR A CHEAP AND EASY DIRECT SWAP SERIES II SUPERCHARGED 4T65E-HD TRANS BUILD NOTE: THIS BUILD 1 LIST IS COMPLETE AND INDEPENDENT OF BUILD 2, BUT BUILD 2 INCLUDES BUILD 1 LIST!
Preface: The output of this engine is expected 280-300 crank horsepower with easy, minor modifications. Those modifications are: -3.4" supercharger pulley - for slightly increased air -180 degrees thermostat - for slightly cooler combustion -Re-program radiator fan setpoints - for slightly cooler combustion -Tune the computer (ECU/PCM) -Autolite 104 Spark Plugs (2 heat range colder than stock spark plugs) - for slightly higher knock resistance With these modifications, an extra 30-60hp is expected out of the otherwise totally stock series II motor.
This build thread also assumes you optionally delete the following: -EGR system - requires welding and sealing shut holes in exhaust and lower intake manifold, detailed in Build 2. For non-emissions compliant states. Requires reprogramming the computer to delete EGR codes and functionality. -Catalytic Converter and Rear O2 Sensor - For non-emissions compliant states. Requires programming the computer and deleting emissions codes and functionality. -EVAP System/Stock Fiero vacuum lines - requires plugging hole with freeze plug and JB weld. Requires reprogramming the computer. -Stock Fiero intake - requires new intake mounted. -"coffee can" vacuum accumulator canister for stock cruise control - stock Fiero cruise control allegedly works by hooking the vacuum line directly to the supercharger port, since the 3800 has more vacuum than the stock Fiero engine. -balance shaft/tensioner spring (build 2 only)
NOTE: The ideal donor car or motor to buy is a 1998-2002 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP. If you do not get an engine from a GTP, there are many parts listed below that you will need in addition, just to make it fit in a Fiero.
There is no need to separate the 4t65e-HD transmission from the engine. If you do, get new flywheel bolts listed below.
Update: The below build worked great (except for custom wiring issues) and took me less than 1 month. I ran a 13.5 second quarter mile without modifying the tune, and a 1.9 second 60' time with street tires. I drove this build for nearly two years and MAN IT WAS FUN! It was an extremely easy direct-swap effort, and I would do it to EVERY Fiero in a heartbeat. The total cost for hard parts was around $1700; I bought a car with the engine+transmission+axles in it for $500 and scrapped the body to get back $125.
THE LIST: The numbers in (x) are the quantity of parts you need to order. Almost everything can be found at Summit/RockAuto/Autozone/Advanced/Oreillys/ZZPerformance
Air filter (1x) - this entirely replaces the stock air intake and water separator. Air filter is fastened under fenderwell behind drivers' seat and behind the stock intake: K&N RF-1040 - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/knn-rf-1040
Supercharger Pulley (1x): Smoothflow 3.4 Polished Finish Pulley System MPS (Modular Pulley System) - optional, also see supercharger belts - DON'T JUST ORDER A BARE PULLEY! ORDER THE PULLEY SYSTEM WITH THE HUB THAT IS PRESSED ON TO THE SUPERCHARGER SHAFT!: http://www.smoothflowpulleys.com/3800_MPS.html
-----------------------FUEL------------------------ Note: The fuel fittings in this section do not represent any fittings in the custom fuel rail diagram posted below TBD. These are bolt-on for an easy, direct swap.
Push-Lok Fuel Hose (1x) - heat this up in a pot of hot water before pushing the below barb fitting on. Cut into 2 appropriate length sections for both supply and return fuel hoses. Fragola 871006 (10ft) - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fra-871006
Fuel pump: Quantum Fuel Systems 255LPM Fuel Pump HFP-343 (1x) - quieter, cheaper, claimed higher quality than walbro 255 - BE CAREFUL WITH THIS PUMP. THE INLET IS TOO CLOSE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE FUEL TANK AND WILL SUCK AGAINST THE TANK, NOT ALLOWING FOR FUEL FLOW AT HIGH FUEL DEMANDS. I TRIMMED THE BOTTOM LIP OFF OF THIS FUEL PUMP TO GIVE MORE CLEARANCE FOR DRAWING FUEL FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE TANK, WHILE STILL ALLOWING ROOM FOR THE SCREEN TO FIT - REMOVE SCREEN BEFORE TRIMMING. - https://www.highflowfuel.co...8-2-5l-tbi-2-8l.html
-------------------------SPARK---------------------- Spark Plugs - two ranges colder than stock Autolite 606 plugs, gap to .050" or less (6x): Autolite 104 spark plugs - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/atl-104
-------------------EXHAUST (Upgraded Entirely in Build 2)-----------------
NOTE: This exhaust system mates to the stock exhaust headers, which can support up to 300hp. You will have to custom-weld your exhaust. There is no bolt-on exhaust for an engine swap (does someone want to start making these?). See pictures of exhaust for this setup in the Assembly Diagrams section. Final fitment can vary between year models of Fieros, engine mount setups, etc. Best advised to go to an exhaust shop and get one welded up after the engine is in the car.
Exhaust pipes - The best types are mandrel bent stainless steel, but those can be hard to find and expensive. For a lower cost option, go to an auto parts store and pick up the below pipes: 90° bend 3" diameter (1x) 180° bend 3" diameter (1x) - must be VERY TIGHT bend radius, likely needed custom weld job 90° bend 2.5" diameter (2x) - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-622118 Straight 2.5" diameter, 1 ft (1x) 2.5" diameter Exhaust Tips (2x) - Re-used stock Fiero exhaust tips 2.5" diameter generic exhaust hanger U-bolts (2x) - use the stock Fiero rubber exhaust hangers to hang these from.
-------------COOLANT AND HOSES-------------- Heater Hose (1x) - for 87-88 Fieros, may work for other applications but will need longer hoses. Goes with 5/8" barb, you'll have to fabricate and mount a retaining bracket detailed in LostNotForgotton's videos below: Dayco C87641 - 7/8" 3800sc heater hose elbow, can squeeze on to 5/8" stock Fiero heater hose line - https://www.autozone.com/co...se-c87641/315787_0_0
Thermostat housing to drivers' side coolant tube (1x) - cut a few inches off the small end: Dayco E71082 - 1.25" to 1.25" 3800sc thermostat housing to fiero - https://www.autozone.com/ig...2/886135_16004_10495
Coolant/Antifreeze (14qt) - you can really use whatever you want, as long as you don't mix two colors and flush the system properly: PRESTONE AF3000 (AF3000/F) universal antifreeze - https://www.amazon.ca/Prest...freeze/dp/B000KKNBVU
Computer (ECU/PCM) (1x): If you don't have one, get at junkyard for $25 from ideally a 1998-2002 Grand Prix GTP. - Junkyard Search
Harness from the donor car (1x): Again best harnesses and engines are from a 1998 Pontiac grand prix GTP.
Harness from the Fiero (1x)
Fuel pump relay (1x) - if building your own harness -Can use stock Fiero relay or any modern generic car relay that you pull out of the fuse box from the donor car.
Flywheel Bolts (8x) - ONLY NECESSARY if you take off the automatic flywheel. NOT NEEDED if you have a manual transmission. These bolts YIELD and need to be replaced if you take off the flywheel. However if you do install a manual transmission, you will need different flex plate bolts listed in the Mounting and Brackets section.: GM # 24501365 - https://www.gmpartsdirect.c...s/gm-s-bolt-24501365
Supercharger Tensioner Pulley - comes on a 3800sc unless coil pack bracket is missing: GATES 38365 -https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/gates,38365,belt+tensioner,11659
AC/DRYER if doing A/C (1x): Four Seasons 33181 -https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/four+seasons,33181,a/c+receiver+drier+/+accumulator,6972
Custom A/C hose made by a radiator shop (1x) - I had a radiator shop make one. You need an R12 style port for the AC Pressure sensor. I cut one off of a 2001 Pontiac Bonneville AC hose and had it braised onto the Fiero side. I also used the 2001 GTP compressor side AC hose fitting for the compressor that came with the GTP. Beware, there were at least 2 types of compressors/AC hoses on 3800 engines. LostNotForgotton has a video, and people on Facebook fiero pages make the hoses. See LostNotForgotton's video - https://youtu.be/ZyPZkCPJzNk?t=530
If you do want to utilize the AC system, you will need to charge it with R134a or newer refrigerant. The Fiero did not come equipped with this, so you will need to swap all your AC System O-Rings with Hydrogenated Nitrile (HNBR, sizes unknown), and your orifice tube (1x): https://www.rockauto.com/en.../c+orifice+tube,6936
Some sort of engine hoist, two jacks, and two jack stands for engine removal and installation...
----------------MOUNTING AND BRACKETS----------------- I use FieroRog brackets. Order them from Roger here //www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin...orum=4&thread=068855 -engine mount -4t65e-HD automatic transmission mounts (2x) - see below if you are using a Fiero manual transmission -alternator relocation bracket -dogbone engine mount bracket -bolts
Manual Transmission Brackets: If using a manual Fiero transmission, get these from FieroRog: -Custom Flexplate (1x) -Flexplate bolts (8x) - GM 24505092 (call Roger to verify) -manual transmission mounts (2x) - instead of automatic transmission mounts above -Clutch bolts - GM 24571667
West Coast Fiero shifter bracket: NOTE: It is not difficult to construct your own. Some manage to simply unbolt the shifter arm and bolt it on in the reverse direction with other minor modification. Some choose to reverse the linkage action on the fiero side shift lever itself. http://westcoastfiero.com/p...ion-shifter-adapterx
Want to buy axles? Stephen Poe will make axles for you. You must supply him the following information: -Your Transmission Type -Your Engine Type -Your Fiero Type (make/model) -Your engine mount/transmission mount type -Measurements from both transmission output shaft surfaces to the inside surfaces of the Fiero hubs with no axles installed, with wheels on ground. Contact him here: https://www.facebook.com/stephen.poe.5011
Building axles yourself? See LostNotForgotton's axle building video posted below. THESE AXLES REQUIRE YOU USE THE FieroRog/Rodney Dickman ENGINE AND TRANSMISSION MOUNTS LISTED IN THIS BUILD THREAD AND IN LostNotForgotton's VIDEO. FINAL FITMENT CAN VARY. If you do not have a GTP, go get a 1998 GTP passenger's and drivers' side axle from a junkyard. Below are the parts required for building axles.
3800 Fiero driver's side axle (1x): Use a Stock automatic Fiero driver's side axle
GTP Oil Pan Gasket (1x) (needs cutting to fit over non-GTP oil pickup tube; Depending on your car, you can get either get a GTP oil pickup tube or get a non-GTP oil pan gasket to avoid cutting): ACDELCO 12587964 - https://www.rockauto.com/en...,oil+pan+gasket,5436
GTP/Regal angled coil pack bracket (1x) - cut engine mount dogbone off, shown in videos posted below. Get at junkyard including the GTP Tensioner pulley on coil pack bracket: GM 24507211 ; 24504360 - https://www.gmpartsbin.com/...l?partner=googlebase
BUILD 2: Complete Parts List for an all-out Series III Supercharged 4T65E-HD build, excluding bottom end (connecting rods/pistons/crank), IN ADDITION TO BUILD 1 Preface: This build is expected 400+ wheel horsepower if you run E85 and a good tune, non-intercooled. THIS BUILD IS IN ADDITION TO BUILD 1, MEANING YOU MUST ORDER ALL OF BUILD 1 PARTS TOO, UNLESS SPECIFICALLY MARKED OTHERWISE. This list assumes you buy a Series II engine and convert to a Series III supercharger. It would be easier to buy a Series III to begin with. The bottom end is not modified for this build. This build requires modifying the cylinder heads for the increased lift, by cutting down valve guides by .060". More information in the Assembly videos section.
NOTE: THIS BUILD IS TO MAXIMIZE THE POWER OF YOUR 3800 AT A HIGH RPM WITH THE ZZP XPZ CAMSHAFT. IF YOU WANT MORE COMFORTABLE A DAILY DRIVER, CONSIDER DOING YOUR OWN RESEARCH INTO A LOWER RPM CAMSHAFT/VALVETRAIN/TIMING CHAIN/BALANCE SHAFT REMOVAL SETUP. TRY A ZZP VS CAMSHAFT FOR MILD PERFORMANCE GAINS WITH MINIMAL EFFORT THAT ALSO RETAINS DRIVE-ABILITY.
THE LIST: The numbers in (x) are the quantity of parts you need to order. Almost everything can be found at Summit/RockAuto/Autozone/Advanced/Oreillys/ZZPerformance
----------------------Air------------------------
Series III/GENV Supercharger (1x): Get at junkyard or private seller from a 2004+ Pontiac Grand Prix GTP or flat out buy a Series III engine - upgrading from Series II / Gen 3 - https://www.car-part .com/cg...serIntSelect=1145748
Supercharger Bolts for upgrading from Series II / Gen 3 to a Series III / Gen 5 (1x of each): Re-use all GENIII Supercharger bolts, but in addition: 1x M8x1.25x120mm bolt 1x M8x1.25x140mm bolt Can get from Menards. See supercharger upgrade instructions in Assembly Diagrams section
2.8" Supercharger Pulley (1x) - modular pulley system also needed from Build 1. NOTE: If you go below 2.8", it is required to machine down the supercharger snout. INTENSE Racing suggests this is pointless, as smaller pulleys beyond this point make exponentially increased temperature compressed air: SmoothFlow Pulleys - http://www.smoothflowpulleys.com/3800_MPS.html
Optional ZZP 1" Phenolic Spacer for gen 5 supercharger (1x) - NOT COMPATIBLE WITH INTERCOOLER, instead opt for 1/4" if you intercool: ZZ-M90HNSPC-G5-1 - https://zzperformance.com/p.../m90-phenolic-spacer
Injectors (6x) - DO NOT BUY ON EBAY - THEY'RE FAKES. You can tell by the DEKA words on the injection molding; fakes do not have DEKA on them. Series III harnesses came with EV6 connectors and Series II harnesses came with EV1 connectors. Your harness provider should be able to put whichever connector on. If you end up with the wrong ones, it is possible to get an adapter. Siemens DEKA EV1 80# Injectors Intense FIS-840-x - http://intense-racing.com/PROD/FIS-840-x.html or ZZP 110324-6 - https://zzperformance.com/p...-deka-80-injectors-6
optional: I had a friend who is a machinist make these. These need to be drilled for injector holes and tapped for fittings on either end. Injector holes must be milled at an angle, and have 2 sizes.: https://www.rossmachineracing.com/dash6.html The fittings I used are the -6 AN to ORB (O-ring Boss, threaded in to the fuel rails).
-------------------------------Spark-------------------------- Spark Plugs (6x) - Autolite Racing Plugs; last longer and burn better (according to marketing). Have a back cut electrode. They are 3 ranges cooler than stock plugs (Autolite 606). Gap to .035” to .045”. Autolite AR103 - http://intense-racing.com/PROD/ARP-xxx.html REPLACES SPARK PLUGS BUILD 1
-----------------------------Exhaust(ENTIRELY REPLACES BUILD 1 EXHAUST)----------------------------- NOTE: This exhaust setup is pictured in the Assembly Diagrams section below.
Stainless Chinese exhaust headers for a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (1x) - on eBay search "GTP Exhaust" - REQUIRES CUTTING BOTTOM SECTION OF TRUNK TO FIT! Also, Since the Grand Prix GTP headers will likely not fit out of the box, the cross-over pipe will require cutting and re-welding, and the EGR will require welding shut. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i....gtp+exhaust&_sacat=0
Re-using stock valves and porting GENIII heads. Stock Series III valves (1.83") are .030" larger than stock Series II valves (1.80").
Cylinder Head Modification: Machining off .060" off of valve guides, valve job, gasket match intake runners, widened exhaust runners (maintain D shape). Head surface was decked. Performed at machine shop. See below how to videos on custom porting heads.
Head Gasket (1x right and left side) - My cylinders measure out of hole ~0.025". You want .038"-.046" of quench according to INTENSE, so I am going .040" quench + .025" stock = 0.65" thick gasket. NOTE: The arrow and the "L," or Left-Hand Side (LHS) gasket goes on the cylinder 1/3/5 side of the engine. If you look at the rear cover, it goes on the left hand side. INTENSE HGP-0xx - http://www.intense-racing.com/PROD/HGP-0xx.html
Ignore this: Intake Pushrod (stock size 7.029") - MELLING MPR605 (MPR-605) - MEASURE YOURS! YOURS WILL BE DIFFERENT DEPENDING ON CAM, DECKING, VALVES, VALVE RETAINERS AND HEAD GASKET SETUP! Detailed in video section.
Ignore this: Exhaust Pushrod - 7.00" - ZZ-CUSPRD-7.00-5/16-12 - MEASURE YOURS! YOURS WILL BE DEFERNT DEPENDING ON CAM, DECKING, VALVES, VALVE RETAINERS, AND HEAD GASKET SETUP! Detailed in video section.
--------------------------Camshaft, timing chain, and balance shaft removal--------------------------
Machined oil pump cover (1x) - required for rollmaster double timing chain clearance - I surface grinded the non-oil pump side of the cover down by grinding off .023", or buy ZZP's: ZZP # ZZ-OILPCVR - https://zzperformance.com/p...hined-oil-pump-cover
Balance shaft delete 440 camshaft bearing (1x) - POUND THIS IN TO BLOCK OIL PASSAGE, WITH OILING HOLES ON OPPOSITE SIDES SO ITS PLUGGED ENGINETECH CC476 - https://www.rockauto.com/en...amshaft+bearing,5208
Camshaft Bearings: NOTE: It is very difficult to replace camshaft bearings without completely disassembling the bottom-end. MAHLE / CLEVITE SH1812S - https://www.rockauto.com/en...amshaft+bearing,5208
---------------------------------4t65e Transmission-------------------------------- NOTE: I had a professional disassemble my transmission and install the below parts. This is a very complicated process and can be very easy to mess up.
Hardened Input Shaft (1x) - needs GM J-tool and complicated disassembly to be installed properly, must take off valve body to access and replace gaskets. This shaft is to support over 350 whp: ZZP 4340 - https://zzperformance.com/products/input-shafts
Engineered Performance Positraction Differential (1x) - There are a few options out there for differentials. This one is affordable and does the trick. http://www.engineered.net/eplsd.htm
Originally posted by AustinH: Well I am tearing down my 2nd 3800sc engine for a rebuild now and doing a how-to about it.
I decided to launch a Facebook page, as Facebook seems to have replaced some Forums as a modern source of information in many ways. You can find it here:
3800sc Assembly Diagrams and Torque Specs ------------------------------------------FIRING ORDER---------------------------------------
----------------------------COOLANT AND FUEL LINES---------------------------- Ignore transmission lines here, I simplified them with parts in the build lists. New diagrams in transmission section.
-------------------------------------SUPERCHARGER, CONNECTIONS, AND ROUTINGS----------------------------------- Excellent Gen 3 to Gen 5 Supercharger Upgrade Guide: http://www.grandprixforums....en-five-gen-5-a.html
----------------------------HOW TO HOOK UP THE 4t65e TRANSMISSION------------------------
How to connect 4t65 transmission lines to Fiero:
-------------------------EXHAUST SETUP FOR BUILD 1---------------------------
NOTE: Refer to Build 1 parts list. This setup is for mating with the stock exhaust headers, which can support up to 300hp.
EVERYTHING BELOW THIS POINT IS FOR BUILD 2. --------------------------------------TORQUE SEQUENCES----------------------------------------- NOTE: The Torque Sequence refers to the order in which you torque bolts. Head bolt torque sequencing can require multiple steps. Please refer to the torque guide website below for these steps, or to the guide from head stud your manufacturer. For example, Instructions for installing ARP Head Studs - https://tech.arp-bolts.com/...uctions/193-4001.pdf
3800 Engine Torque Specs (helpful to print this off): NOTE: THE TORQUE SPEC CALLING OUT 74 ft-lbs FOR A/C COMPRESSOR BRACKET/STAY IS INCORRECT. SUGGEST TO USE 30 ft-lbs INSTEAD. http://www.torkspec.com/tor...?KI=12-3.8L-231ci-V6
Series II Supercharged Lower Intake Manifold Torque Sequence: NOTE: #5 is not shown, but it is directly below #11.
3800 Cylinder Head Torque Sequence for both sides (follow torque values in the torque spec website for stock or follow the head stud manufacturer's torque specs. ARP Head stud torque specs found here: https://tech.arp-bolts.com/...uctions/193-4001.pdf
-------------------------------ENGINE EXPLODED VIEW ASSEMBLY DIAGRAMS------------------------------ You can find most of these diagrams and the part #s of the parts labeled at many GM parts websites. These diagrams were taken from here: https://www.wholesalegmpart...x-GTP-4DR-parts.html
----------------------HOW A PCV SYSTEM WORKS WITH A NORTHSTAR THROTTLE BODY ON A SERIES III 3800SC------------------- All you do is attach a hose from the Northstar TB nipple (before butterfly valve but after MAF) to the nipple on the supercharger by the PCV. The air goes from the throttle body, through the supercharger nipple, through the intake manifold, through the heads to the crank case, back up through the heads, back through the intake manifold, through the PCV valve, and back into the supercharger intake. There is no way to run a catch can without bypassing the actual PCV in some way, since it sits directly in the Gen 5 Supercharger intake.
-------------------EXHAUST SETUP FOR BUILD 2----------------- Note: See build 2 parts list in conjunction with this picture. This exhaust mates with the ebay chinese exhaust headers. REQUIRES CUTTING OUT BOTTOM PORTION OF FIERO TRUNK TO FIT! ALSO REQUIRES GRAND PRIX GTP HEADERS FROM EBAY! Since the GTP headers will likely not fit out of the box, the cross-over pipe will require cutting and re-welding, and the EGR will require welding shut.
I have not heard of most people re-designing the existing fuel pump circuit. I believe most have utilized the original circuit, especially the oil pressure switch and just upgraded the fuel pump fuse to a 15 amp. Some have replaced the original relay with a newer model, but the wiring has remained the same.. curtis
And supply them with the following information, including programming: Ship them your donor harness and donor computer (PCM/ECU) Fiero Year/Model? Year/Make/Model of donor car engine? Transmission type? Keep or delete EGR? Keep or delete Boost Bypass valves/solenoid? Throttle Body and MAF type? Keep or delete rear O2 sensor after catalytic converter? 88 fiero oil pressure sender 3-pin (only center pin used) Keep or delete EVAP system? 3 pin temp sensor (use the center pin for fiero gauge) Keep or delete A/C pressure sensor connector near compressor connector? Keep or delete Electronic cruise control? Speedometer sensor buffer circuit External or Internal transmission gear selection range switch? MAP sensor type? (1-bar or 2-bar?)
Programming: Delete ABS Radiator fan activate at low temp (185?) and turn off at 180 Accommodate for type of MAF/TPS/IAC tables Vehicle Speed Sensor programmed at: 24,713.7? ppm if using stock 215/60R15 rear tires (double check this) 24,327.5 ppm if using specific 225/60r15 rear tires VATS Security delete Rev Limiter? (Up to ~7000RPM) Amount of timing to add? Determined by below Camshaft type? Supercharger type? Thermostat type? Supercharger pulley size? Spark plug type? Fuel type? (87/89/91/93 octane or E15 or E85?) Cooling type if added? (Methanol injection, nitrous, intercooled?) Head Gasket Type? Compression Ratio? Other modification type? (ported heads, ported supercharger, fuel injectors, exhaust system, valve springs, rocker ratio) custom ported heads
------------------------------Building a harness--------------------------
Want to build your own harness instead? Below are diagrams for doing so. This thread does not supply any wire loom dimensions for laying out the harness - that is owned by harness makers above. It is possible to simply splice all of the connections that you need and lay out your own harness routings, but this is unreliable and messy. This guide will not help with that, but it will help with the final wiring diagram.
Go to http://www.alldatadiy.com/ and buy a subscription to your donor car's information. You can find a PCM pinout diagram of PCM Connectors C1 (Blue) and C2 (Clear) that will be critical in aiding you with building the harness. Below is an example of the PCM pinout diagram of a 2001 Bonneville SSEi. DO NOT USE THIS DIAGRAM IF YOU DID NOT BUY AN ENGINE FROM A 2001 BONNEVILLE SSEi; THEY WILL VARY SLIGHTLY!
Harness wiring diagram (For a GTP harness that works manual Fiero transmission. For automatic harnesses, you will need to ground the VSS LOW Fiero input pin and add the buffer circuit shown below between the GTP computer and the fiero pin):
Speedometer Buffer Conversion Circuit (the input signal to the Fiero speedometer is incompatible with the 4t65e-HD transmission Vehicle Speed Sensor (VSS) output signal) : http://www.gmtuners.com/fiero/fmods.htm
OBDII Connector Pinout: NOTE: The 3800sc Fiero only uses the "VPW" configuration on pins 2, 4, 5, and 16.
External Transmission Range Selector Switch for a 4t60/4t65/4t65e-hd transmission: Note: You will need to purchase one of these and put it on your gear selector if you did not buy a GTP. You may also need the connector for it, available at Rockauto. See above Build 1 Parts List.
Optional: 3800 Electronic Cruise Control (can instead rig up the Fiero vacuum cruise to work)
Disassembly, Reassembly and Final Fiero Installation Videos
----------------------Below this line is required for both Build 1 and Build 2---------------------
Fiero Engine Removal:
How to replace the Fuel Pump :
How To Change The Supercharger Pulley Using The ZZP Pulley Puller:
How to change Supercharger Oil:
How to Install oil sending unit, Thermostat & plugging water pump:
How to install FieroRog Engine Brackets, Belts & Accessories in a 3800 Fiero:
How to Install A Custom Fuel Rail & Swapping Valve Covers:
How to build your own 3800sc Fiero Swap Axles:
How to install Transmission:
How To Mount Engine to Trans/Install supercharger Belt
How To Install an Injection Technology Wiring Harness
How to hook up fuel lines, AC lines & hoses:
Fiero Engine Bay for 3800 Swap Overview
How to install engine in car and hook up exhaust:
Engine Bay Routings/Hookups 1:
Engine Bay Routings/Hookups 2:
Engine Bay Routings/Hookups 3:
----------------------Below this line is only required for Build 2-----------------------
IMPORTANT: BEFORE TEARING DOWN THE ENGINE, PLEASE WATCH THESE FACTORY SERVICE VIDEOS TO SAVE YOU SOME HEADACHES! Buick 3800 Engine Noise and Repair Techniques:
Buick 3800 Engine Mechanical:
Why you don’t want to disassemble the bottom end (rods/pistons/crankshaft/bearings):
-----------------------Engine Tear-down and rebuild instructions-----------------------
How to tear down and rebuild the Lower Intake Manifold: NOTE: I THOROUGHLY CLEANED OUT THE INSIDE OF MY LOWER INTAKE MANIFOLD BY SOAKING IN BRAKE CLEANER AND THEN TAKING IT TO A CAR WASH AND MANUALLY SPRAYING DOWN THOROUGHLY, INSPECTING, AND DRYING.
How to tear down the "long block" (accessories, supercharger, intake, water pump, etc.).:
Installing a Phenolic Spacer instead of Intercooler:
How to remove front cover, balance pulley, timing chain, balance shaft, camshaft, etc.:
How to remove front cover, balance pulley, timing chain, balance shaft, camshaft alternative:
How to disassemble cylinder heads with a valve spring compressor: NOTE: You should drop your cylinder heads off at a machine shop, detailed at the end section of this post. BE CAREFUL WITH THE CYLINDER HEAD DECK SURFACE. DO NOT SCRATCH THE BOTTOM OF THE HEADS. PLACE ON A LINT FREE CLOTH AND DO NOT PUT THEM ON THE GROUND OR A HARD SURFACE UNLESS YOU INTEND TO DECK THEM.
FACTORY SERVICE GUIDE for installing heads, valve train, balance shaft, intake manifold, valve covers, etc.:
How to prepare deck surfaces and assemble cylinder heads
ZZP Installing Heads:
How to assemble cylinder heads, valve train (lifters/rockers/pushrods), intake manifold, supercharger, and throttle body: NOTE: DO NOT USE ARP THREAD SEALANT SHOWN IN VIDEO. INSTEAD USE HIGH TEMP NON-HARDENING RTV SILOCONE.
How to assemble valve train alternative: NOTE: I DO NOT AGREE WITH THE METHOD USED HERE FOR MEASURING PUSH ROD LENGTH. INSTEAD WATCH ABOVE VIDEO.
How to assemble Custom Exhaust, Custom Fuel Rails, Accessories:
PREFACE: According to INTENSE Racing, stock cylinder heads will out-flow ANY M90 supercharged 3800 engine setup. There is virtually NO NEED to modify cylinder heads, UNLESS YOU RUN LIFT HIGHER THAN 0.525, DETEAILED BELOW.
NOTE: I would NOT attempt performing ANY of this at home. Take your cylinder heads to a machine shop. That being said, below is a collection of information about porting 3800 cylinder heads.
Here are the instructions I supplied a machine shop for porting my cylinder heads: NOTE: Maximum valve lift on a stock 3800sc (NOT NA) block and pistons is ~0.600" before running into piston-to-valve clearance issues. Over 0.525" lift REQUIRES machining down valve guides.
1. Machine .060" off intake valve guides to support XPZ Camshaft lift. a. 1.65 rocker arm * 0.354 XPZ camshaft intake lift = 0.5837" lift. Stock lift max is 0.525" before intake valve runs into valve guide with stock retainers. 0.5837"-0.525" = 0.0587". Therefore, cut down top of valve guide by 0.0587" (or 0.060" to be safe). NOTE: LS Retainers add about .005" clearance, meaning max intake lift would be 0.0530". 2. Machine .060" off exhaust valve guides a. 1.65 rocker arm * 0.335 XPZ camshaft exhaust lift = 0.5528" lift. Stock lift max is 0.528" before exhaust valve runs into valve guide with stock retainers. 0.5528"-0.528"= 0.0247". Therefore, cut down top of valve guide by .0247" (or 0.060" to be safe and consistent with intake). 3. Redrill and replace valve guides with Bronze oil lite guides 4. Valve job a. widen valve seats for 1.83" intake valves (on heads now) (stock is 1.80"), 1.52" exhaust b. Replace seats with hardened seats at custom 3 angle cut. c. Back-cut valves with same 3 angle cut. Lap valves if necessary. d. If not replacing seats with hardened seats, don't grind seat, but grind right up to it, without touching it, to maintain factory hardened seat. 5. Blend bowl smooth - remove casting mark and lips on radius a. Street/strip port, Polish combustion chambers b. Smooth short side radius c. Don't drop port floor 6. Gasket Match Intake runners and Lower Intake Manifold a. Don't gasket match exhaust. Keep the D-shape of exhaust ports (can widen a bit) b. Polish runners c. Blend in short side of intake d. Be careful not to grind through walls. 7. Deck head surfaces and record thickness decked by. Need at least 50 Roughness Average (RA) on deck surface to properly seal Cometic Head Gaskets. Valve job video:
Head Porting 1:
Head Porting 2:
Head Porting 3:
Head porting example:
How to lap / grind / regrind valves and valve seats:
------------------------------INSPECTING THE BOTTOM END (crank/bearings/connecting rods/bearings/pistons/piston rings)------------------------------
In addition to porting cylinder heads, on the engine block, measure each cylinder “out of hole” clearance, or the amount which a piston sticks out above the block deck when the crankshaft is at top dead center. Stock piston height should be between 0.012” to 0.025”. If the out of hole measurements for each piston are significantly different than one another, then consider decking the block. At this point, you will need to disassemble the bottom end. If re-using stock bottom end parts, keep every bolt/bearing/rod/piston/journal/cylinder matched with where it came from, including direction. Consider getting the engine inspected and blueprinted, the crankshaft ground, the rods conditioned, the rotating assembly balanced, having new oversized bearings installed afterwards, honing cylinders, and replacing piston rings with correct gap for your boost. This is how to properly tear down the bottom end which is not covered in this guide. Here are the instructions I would provide a machine shop with for working with the bottom-end:
If the rotating assembly is in good shape, re-use all factory items and don't recondition. 1. Measure if block needs decked. .003" out of flat and 50 microinch RA surface or more required for decking. If not leave it. If so, deck block/heads and continue. 2. Disassemble pistons/rods. 3. Keep rods, rod bolts, rod bearings, crank bearings, and journals, etc matched to each other. 4. Clean pistons and rings with oil based solvent. 5. Check rings. Leave stock rings and don't hone if rings are OK. If rings are seized: a. Replace rings (oversized?) b. Gap rings. Adjust gap for 12-14.5 psi roots style supercharger boost (350 deg. Max) c. Hone cylinder bores. d. Oil and install pistons and rings. 6. Measure rods/bearings. If good, leave stock. If rods are worn: a. Recondition rods, bore and find matched bearings (oversized?) b. Clean rod bearing seats with alcohol c. Oil inside of bearings but not in seat, work in oil to crank d. Assemble rods to torque spec with matched bolts e. Measure play (plastigauge) to verify correct size bearing f. Also do replace crank bearings (below). 7. Measure crank bearings for wear a. If crank or rod bearings worn, replace with new bearings (oversize?) b. Plastigauge new bearings once torqued and seated to verify correct size c. Clean main seats with alcohol. d. Oil inside of bearings, torque mains down and rotate crank with oil in inside of bearings. 8. Measure main seats. If round, leave. If out of round: a. Re-bore mains. Select appropriate bearings 9. Measure crank journals. If out of round: a. Machine journal to round b. Replace bearings (oversized?) 10. Measure crankshaft thrust bearing play. Recondition if necessary 11. Check assembly for balance a. If out of balance for 6,700RPM, then re-balance rotating assembly i. Flexplate ii. Torque Converter iii. Crank iv. Pistons 12. Replace front and rear main seals and covers, reinstall everything and torque
Here is a decent video on inspecting the bottom end NOTE: This video does not describe matching and conditioning rods parts. Before disassembling anything for yourself, if you're not an expert, JUST TAKE IT TO A MACHINE SHOP AND HAVE THEM DO EVERYTHING.
Here is a in-depth video about measuring crankshaft and connecting rod journals.
Bigger tires General Altimax RT43 (2x of each size): 225/60R15 rear on stock 15x7" rims (stock rear tire size is 215/60R15) 215/60R15 front on stock 15x7" rims - 1988 fronts came with 15x6.5" rims (stock front tire size is 205/60R15)
Replace end links and sway bar bushings (2x of each): Go to an auto parts store and buy generic end-links and sway bar bushings after having measured your end-link length on your car, if it is equipped with a rear sway bar.
Rear Brake lines: Autozone M10 to M10 Copper-Nickel line 60" (1x) Autozone M10 to M10 Copper-Nickel line 12" (1x) Autozone M12 to M12 Steel Line 36" (1x) Autozone M12 to M12 Steel Line 60" (1x) Autozone M12 to M14 steel line 12" (2x) Autozone M12 to M12 coupler (2x) Dot3 brake fluid
Thanks Austin: lots of good information here. Everybody's swap is different, so the more info we get the more options we have to choose from and the better decisions we make. The electrical diagrams you posted are especially helpful, as are your videos on youtube. thanks again jon
------------------ I'm the original owner of a white ' 84 2M4 purchased Dec 10, 1983 from Pontiac. Always garaged, no rust, 4-wheel drifts are fun! 3800 SC swap to come!
You seem to be very analytical in your approach - researching and then making informed decisions. Curious what your conclusion was regarding the Gen 3 M90 ported vs Gen 5.
I honestly picked up my Gen V + the two series III heads + the Lower Intake Manifold for $150 total... maybe got lucky.
The hype online is that a ported Gen III blower is equal airflow to a Gen V blower.
I think that the 13% less HP parasitic and 15% less heat would remain with the Gen V blower however.
Here are the exact numbers from Eaton found here: http://www.grandprixforums....en-five-gen-5-a.html The 90-cubic inch Gen V supercharger is very compact. Its housing includes the throttle-body adaptor, crankcase ventilation plumbing, coolant passages, the evaporative emissions purge valve and the rotor drive mechanism. The drive mechanism is sealed and permanently lubricated, obviating the need for oil connections and eliminating a potential source of leaks. Moreover, the Gen V features all-cast components and a larger, low-restriction outlet port. The tuned inlet port is also less restrictive, compared to previous-generation superchargers, allowing a larger (75 millimeter) throttle body. As a result, more air is pumped by the supercharger through the Series III’s induction system. The Gen V’s rotor is finished with Abraidbable Powder Coating (APC) rather than epoxy. APC is a patented material containing graphite that is electrostatically applied to the rotor and baked on. As a result, the rotor requires less clearance within the supercharger housing, resulting in less leakage around its edges, greater airflow at a given operating speed and lower operating temperature. The Gen V’s rotor bearings have been enlarged to increase durability and reduce operating noise and vibration.
As a result, the Gen V operates at considerably higher efficiency than its predecessors. At wide open throttle, the Gen V turns at 700 fewer rpm (a 9 percent reduction), draws 13 percent less power from the crankshaft, decreases operating temperature 15 percent and increases volumetric efficiency 9 percent. For the customer, that means a 9 percent increase in horsepower (see product specifications), and best- in-class acceleration times for the Grand Prix.
Ha. Makes it an easy decision when a deal like that falls into your lap....
Just wanted to add my "keep on moving forward"! You are doing FINE work, so keep it(the work), the posts, and vids on youtube coming. I'm sure I'm not the only one taking it all in.
How are you doing the computer? We are looking at hptuners and efilive for a programmer for our sc gtp swap into an 85 Fiero.
How are you doing the computer? We are looking at hptuners and efilive for a programmer for our sc gtp swap into an 85 Fiero.
I would recommend that the OP use HP Tuners to tweak the program as there is a long history with that software. It takes a while to learn how to use editing software but if you add any mods, having it is essential.
------------------ " THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite. "THE COLUSSUS" 87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H " ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "
Just wanted to add my "keep on moving forward"! You are doing FINE work, so keep it(the work), the posts, and vids on youtube coming. I'm sure I'm not the only one taking it all in.
How are you doing the computer? We are looking at hptuners and efilive for a programmer for our sc gtp swap into an 85 Fiero.
Thanks! The above post is correct, I have a friend with HPTuners. James L Brown (who manufactures 3800sc swap harnesses) also programs the PCM for you.
I have been subscribed for a while, I love the videos, they are very informative. When I saw the part about the A/C compressor, I was laughing because I did the same exact thing torquing the nuts to 74 ft-lbs because of how it was described in the list of torque specs. I pulled the threads right out of the compressor bracket, I ended up tapping to the next size with the same thread pitch and using a Time-Sert. Glad to have you and LostNotForgotten giving tips with the 3800 Supercharged install, it definitely helps many of us a lot. I hope you get over 1,000 subscribers soon, you definitely deserve it. Keep up the good work!
Thank you for the updated video. I am in the process of getting all my parts required to perform my 3800sc swap and I have been watching your videos and “LostbutNotForgotten’s” videos. You guys are my inspiration and my guides in doing this swap. I can’t thank you enough for sharing the information.
I have a 3800sc Series II L67, but I’ve aquired a Gen V M90 and L32 lower intake manifold.
Do you know is there any VATS or PASSKEY on the Gen II that needs to be disabled in the ECU? I’d like to test run my engine before I mount it in the Fiero.
Do you know is there any VATS or PASSKEY on the Gen II that needs to be disabled in the ECU? I’d like to test run my engine before I mount it in the Fiero.
You are welcome! Glad to hear. Yes, there is VATS you must disable. You can do that with a programming tool like HPTuners. I have a friend handle all that stuff for me. If your harness came from Danny (Canada) or James Brown, then they would have disabled it already. You can send out your PCM to one of them or take it to a shop to have done otherwise. What are you doing for a harness? James Brown - https://www.facebook.com/pr...p?id=100010340077920 Danny - https://www.facebook.com/danny.mcilmoyle
I wasn’t sure if I should try to use the existing harness and splice into the Fiero wiring or try to get a harness made. The harness is really the only thing I am missing to perform my swap. My engine is from a 1998 Grand Prix GTP so hopefully its not too challenging. What are your recommendations? I pretty handy, but I’d be willing to buy one too save me some headaches...
