Originally posted by CMacD: Given the short wheelbase of the Fiero what would be the upper limit to the size and width of the tires that I can fit? And what about the difference in width of the front tires compared to the rears? Are there formulas for these types of things - or maybe a general rule?
The general rule is that you should maintain the same tire width ratio as the front to rear curb weight ratio to keep neutral tire loading fore and aft. So a car like the Fiero with a 40/60 weight distribution should have tires with the same ratio. To decide where to start, consider that unless you're planning to install power steering (like some have done) the maximum practical width on the front is between 215 - 235. For example, on my project car I used 215's on the front and 265's on the rear.
Choosing the right offset wheels is the next issue since installing wide wheels on the rear can result in clearance issues with the strut and spring perch. Most of the time a simple change to coil overs can solve the problem. In the front, you want to buy wheels that have the correct offset to maintain or lessen the scrub radius, but not increase it at all possible.
[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 01-02-2014).]
Originally posted by CMacD: Yep. That's the plan Nice fat tires too. Which brings me to a very important question. Given the short wheelbase of the Fiero what would be the upper limit to the size and width of the tires that I can fit? Tires too wide for such a short car could go beyond looking sweet to just plain stupid I would think. And more importantly they will also dictate the final width of the design. And what about the difference in width of the front tires compared to the rears? Are there formulas for these types of things - or maybe a general rule?
clark
You can go as wide as you want, really. Depending on your wheel choice, it may look OK, like crap, or just way overdone. Some people are running as wide as 305s on the rear. Like Blooz said though, I'd probably not go wider than 265 or so. I also wouldn't go too large on the wheel diameter. Huge wheels on little cars can look pretty ridiculous. I'm sure you've seen an older (the rounded body style) Toyota Camry or Corolla rolling around on 20" wheels, looking like a 4x4 truck, before. There's a guy in my area with a Geo Metro on like 19" or 20" wheels. Looks really stupid.
Originally posted by Bloozberry: Choosing the right offset wheels is the next issue since installing wide wheels on the rear can result in clearance issues with the strut and spring perch. Most of the time a simple change to coil overs can solve the problem. In the front, you want to buy wheels that have the correct offset to maintain or lessen the scrub radius, but not increase it at all possible.
Do the Corvette wheels work well? I see that Christian has done the Corvette brake a wheel swap and they seem to look about right. Here is his thread - Link. Hubs are modified to 5x4.75" bolt pattern. They are a little wide for the stock 87 but the Fribun will have a wider back end after modifications anyway. Comments? Does anyone know if he is happy with this setup?
I don't know about that particular build, but I know there are several S10/Corvair hub swaps to get the Vette bolt circle for the wheels, in the wild.
I don't know if anyone is running with the huge wheels/tires off the C6 or C7 Vettes though. Unless you're going to use wheels that are only available in that pattern though, I don't know if I'd bother with it. If you can get the wheels you want in 5x100, I'd just stick with the 5x100 hubs to make things cheaper/easier.
Originally posted by CMacD: Do the Corvette wheels work well? I see that Christian has done the Corvette brake a wheel swap and they seem to look about right. Here is his thread - Link. Hubs are modified to 5x4.75" bolt pattern. They are a little wide for the stock 87 but the Fribun will have a wider back end after modifications anyway. Comments? Does anyone know if he is happy with this setup?
You should PM Christian and ask him. He is on PFF ever week or two as we have been trading PM's. His car is an 87, but has 88 front and rear suspension on it.
If you want a rear wheel wider than about 9 - 9 1/2" or a diameter larger than 18" then it might be worthwhile looking at a bolt pattern change. There are plenty of 18 x 9" wheels that come in the 5 x 100 pattern.
First kick at the can for the rear view. I used the wheel dimensions from Christian's pic as a starting point because I thought the tires looked about right for this project. I'm still not quite sure what they will end up being but this is close enough for now. There are some discrepancies with the previous side view at the moment but I wanted to put something "out there".
Neil - you will notice something that can pop up at speed Not sure if this is what you had in mind - but its there. Again I would truly like to hear people's opinions. You all were a great help for the side view.
You've got to come up with a new name for the car too! Fribun... it sounds like something you eat that's been boiled in oil.
After looking through a ton of city and village names in Italy I think I like the name Melina. It means honey - sweet! Of the other names there were Merlina, Gallio, Messina, Valeggio, Parrano, Marzano, Bianca, Montagano, Palermo, Mirabello, and Valdina that were interesting. I figured it looks Italian so it should probably have an Italian name. (Yeah Blooz - I agree - Fribun sounded strange.)
The roof needed some tending, she needed her name and this is the back end unless anyone has suggestions?
That exhaust is going to be difficult to pull off on a Fiero chassis...
Also... instead of the Ferrari rounds... an LED lighting system that follows the contour of the black area and complements the reflectors would be cool...
I was reading through the previous page where you are talking about the raked screen. If you keep the side window B-Pillars straight up, you will need to get custom side glass. Archie's glass is a 3" chop. Looks amazing but really removes head room in these cars.
One idea I had on one of my projects was to cut the a-pillars at the bottom, the same as Archie's kit but to leave the angle of the roof to a-pillar the same at the top. What that would do is rake the screen back a couple inches at the top and lower the rear of the roof panel down by a couple inches. This leaves the side windows the same and the B-Pillar would need to be cut down, maybe 1-1.5" at the front edge and maybe 2" at the rear edge. The B-Pillar would then also rake back a bit to lay backward bottom to top. This would give you the rear side window rearward rake you are looking for and not require new side windows.
Drawbacks to this method (that I can think of are): 1. I am not sure if the rear of the side glass will still sit tight up against the B-Pillar window seal after the rake. On the Archie kits, the side windows are significantly different curvature at the back as the B-Pillars need to be pulled out at the bottom to match back up to the frame after removing 3". with the rake as above, the B-Pillar isn't too curved at the lower section yet so you may get away with no changes 2. I did some initial measuring at the time and you have enough room to move the front side window track lower mount froward by about 2" max. Not sure if that will give you enough rake of the roof line that you are looking for. Rear track did not have any issues that I saw. 3: Rear window will now also be raked back and smaller so a new one needed and a decision as to whether the rear rake of the rear window is acceptable to you. I thought I might be making a new rear window area out of fiberglass anyway so I wasn't too worried about that area. 4. Last item for me was once I put the side window at a rake, the side dew wipes and rubs may need to be adjusted to still provide a contact and seal against the new side window angle.
As for a different windshield curvature, that is easily managed with either a mid 90's Sebring Coupe (make sure it is a Coupe not convert) or a Plymouth Breeze. The Sebring goes into the Fiero screen frame fairly well with only a bit of filling on the a-pillars and the lower edge can be filled and mounted using expanding foam and a new screen tray. We, in the replica hobby, do this regularly. The Breeze would require some glass cutting but would allow for a closer bottom edge fit for you.
Again, car is looking great and I think it will end up being a very interesting project for you.
One idea I had on one of my projects was to cut the a-pillars at the bottom, the same as Archie's kit but to leave the angle of the roof to a-pillar the same at the top. What that would do is rake the screen back a couple inches at the top and lower the rear of the roof panel down by a couple inches. This leaves the side windows the same and the B-Pillar would need to be cut down, maybe 1-1.5" at the front edge and maybe 2" at the rear edge. The B-Pillar would then also rake back a bit to lay backward bottom to top. This would give you the rear side window rearward rake you are looking for and not require new side windows.
Don
Yeah - that's kinda what I was wondering. If that would work. I'm sure when I start chopping it will become apparent fairly quickly. But that's what's tough about the design part for me - I know very little about the Fiero. I can think a line looks really cool just over a bit and not realize that I just created a major headache for the sake of a few inches. Thanks for the suggestions and encouragement Don. I'll have to play with that.
That exhaust is going to be difficult to pull off on a Fiero chassis...
Also... instead of the Ferrari rounds... an LED lighting system that follows the contour of the black area and complements the reflectors would be cool...
Yeah - I thought about that. I have seen a few kits with different pipe placements but they are usually stretches. The design is pretty flexible back there so I could put them in the default spots if required. I may end up trying my hand at custom pipes too. Not sure at this point.
The rounds are my fave - I don't think I could ever consider replacing them
Melina! Excellent choice of names. It's very a-propos. The rear end looks really sexy too, and I agree that the round tail lights are an important design element.
I'm still stuck on the side view and the location of the back glass though. I don't mean to belabor the point, but when you superimpose the location of the stock rear glass onto the Melina, it comes out way further back than what you might expect from the side view:
Specifically, do you plan to extend the roof as far back as the stock window location? If you don't, then you'll be cutting significantly into the cabin space. If you do, then I think a top view sketch of the car would help show how you're planning to address that area.
Neil - you will notice something that can pop up at speed Not sure if this is what you had in mind - but its there. Again I would truly like to hear people's opinions. You all were a great help for the side view.
Generally, I think it looks awesome. Great job! +1 on the name.
Some thoughts that pop to mind....
A. I'll need to actually see the spoiler up to see how it looks with respect to the mesh.
B. Where do those small curved reflectors come from? ...you wouldn't want to manufacture those, so I'm guessing you found them on something.
C. Not sure I like the tunnels being this pronounced.
Have you thought of creating a 3d CAD model and running it though a CFD analysis program to optimize the flow characteristics?
Melina! Excellent choice of names. It's very a-propos. The rear end looks really sexy too, and I agree that the round tail lights are an important design element.
I'm still stuck on the side view and the location of the back glass though. I don't mean to belabor the point, but when you superimpose the location of the stock rear glass onto the Melina, it comes out way further back than what you might expect from the side view:
Specifically, do you plan to extend the roof as far back as the stock window location? If you don't, then you'll be cutting significantly into the cabin space. If you do, then I think a top view sketch of the car would help show how you're planning to address that area.
I like where the design is going, but I think a bigger question than what Blooze is asking is how you plan on reshaping the side windows and or b-pillar. Totally different than the stock Fiero.
Originally posted by Bloozberry: Specifically, do you plan to extend the roof as far back as the stock window location? If you don't, then you'll be cutting significantly into the cabin space. If you do, then I think a top view sketch of the car would help show how you're planning to address that area.
Blooz - I like how you brought the two views together. It does provide a good way of determining the distances. I do plan to extend the roof back as far as the stock distance - essentially keeping the cabin the same size. You are correct in that I haven't fully investigated how that will happen. I can see your point that it may be awkward to accomplish and I think you are correct that a top view is in order. I would like to keep the B-Pillar location stock - although I would suspect that I will need to tailor it a bit to get the chop top and rear window glass to work. (I would assume that there is a high possibility that it will need a new rear window - unless one could modify the housing and there is room to shift it down another 6 or 8 inches.) I had expected to wrap the top of the C-Pillars (rear sails) into the back half of the roof - essentially keeping the design of the roof as close to stock as possible. Right now the sails look like the 458 spider and suggest that two roll bars should go behind the occupants heads. I don't know that this is a completely accurate representation and probably won't be that way. I planned on ditching the side glass altogether as it is really not needed at this point. Bob had asked about them.
clark
[This message has been edited by CMacD (edited 01-07-2014).]
I've been following this thread, but haven't had time to post. I see you didn't need my input for the side view, though - I think you have that down pat now. The first ideas for the rear are too Ferrari-esq IMO. The bottom half looks great, but you need to loose the round taillights. The Gallardo came to mind, & there are other Lambos that have more angular taillights that would go well with the body style. http://www.lamborghini.com/...2/gallery/#!image/20 I don't think you'll have a problem with the center mounted exhausts if you simply cut the bottom of the trunk out. This leaves you more room for the diffusers & IMO looks great. Also, in order to move the roof forward as in the side view, I think you can move just the rear window (& maybe part of the firewall) forward at least a few inches.without loosing any of the cockpit space. Doing this while chopping the top should be easy enough. BTW, your original name/concept came from a real kit, right? If so do you have any links for that? HTH, ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Originally posted by Tha Driver: The first ideas for the rear are too Ferrari-esq IMO. The bottom half looks great, but you need to loose the round taillights. The Gallardo came to mind, & there are other Lambos that have more angular taillights that would go well with the body style.
Hey Paul. I will take the too Ferrari-esq comment as a compliment. At first the Fribun was looking more straight lined like a Lambo but during the course of the design it turned more Ferrari like. Other than the Countach I really do appreciate the sultry lines of the Ferrari's. I don't think you are going to be able to win me over to the "other" side. I really do like the round tail lights. They are a must for me. They were the first things I penciled in for the back end.
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I don't think you'll have a problem with the center mounted exhausts if you simply cut the bottom of the trunk out. This leaves you more room for the diffusers & IMO looks great.
Cool. I think the exhaust and diffusers while a little aggressive are one of the "exotic" features of the rear view. I kinda like them too.
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BTW, your original name/concept came from a real kit, right? If so do you have any links for that? HTH, ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver"
Not a kit actually. From a prototype for the new Vector by Stefan Shulze. It reminded me of my childhood crush for the Countach. Tribun
My thoughts with the tunnels were primarily aesthetic, I don't think they'll cause any flow issues. We'll address the CFD analysis later in the design....
One question that we (like how this has now become a group effort ) need to consider is that of power. What engine do you (we ) want to put into this. Clearly that will affect deck height, and possibly air intake flow requirements.
Well, here is the first kick at the cat for the nose. Its pretty bland at the moment. I think I want some spice up front but don't have a feeling for it yet. Anyone have any ideas?
Originally posted by Neils88: One question that we (like how this has now become a group effort ) need to consider is that of power. What engine do you (we ) want to put into this. Clearly that will affect deck height, and possibly air intake flow requirements.
Ah. To be honest I was hoping for an amazing exhaust note above power. Something in the 8000 rpm range would be nice At one point I was looking to see if anyone had successfully put a large bike engine in a Fiero but alas did not find any. My son has a Cadillac Seville with a Northstar in it that he will be selling soon. That is an option but it sounds so North American. Don't get me wrong. I love North American - My sister purchased one of the very first Fieros through my fathers GM employee plan, but in this Italian looking vehicle the sound would be incongruous. Every time a real Ferrari passes me on the road the first thing I do is roll down the window. There is nothing sweeter than to hear an exotic engine pass by. Are there any reasonably priced options that can get me there?
[This message has been edited by CMacD (edited 01-09-2014).]
3.4 Twin Dual Cam - Despite it's reputation as fragile (timing belt, meh), if taken care of, this engine great fun to drive. I don't care that it's not the most powerful engine option, hearing a 60* V6 revving over 7000RPM is addicting. I can't find a youtube video that does it justice. A 3.4 DOHC Build then... F40 Turbo by Fierobsessed...
Northstar - You already know about that... it may sound too American with a Caddy exhaust, but most of the sound from a Ferrari comes from exhaust tuning/design. My 88 Northstar build thread by GSXRBOBBY
Originally posted by Neils88: My thoughts with the tunnels were primarily aesthetic, I don't think they'll cause any flow issues.
I sort of agree. They'd look better if the exhaust tips were moved out and into those areas, rather than being under the center "hump" of the rear diffuser area.
So I checked out some Youtube videos of Ferrari engine sounds. WOW. Those cars sound so out of this world. I don't know that any amount of exhaust tuning on a 6 cylinder GM powerplant is ever going to create anything like that. At the risk of oversimplifying things wouldn't it be possible to tack a sprocket onto the output shaft of a large motorcycle engine and connect it via chain to a 3 times larger sprocket at the head of a GM transmission? The Smartuki people sell kits to convert a smart car into a suzuki powered beast. They seem to keep the motorcycle engine fairly stock. Of course the Fiero is much heavier but you can gain a fair amount of mechanical advantage from gear reduction. You would probably need it too. I don't think many tranny's would appreciate 12,000 RPM. But that reduction would make the pull 3 times easier on the engine and give the transmission 4000 RPM not? http://www.smartuki.com/
I'm just musing out loud here... The Ferrari 308 gtsi only had 205 bhp @ 6600rpm. Of course it also had 179 lb-ft @ 4600rpm. The Suzuki GSXR is easily capable of 190 bhp. Just thinkin. I know it would be a Frankenstein with not that much power - but it would sound awesome.
Of course the pics in the first thread were hosted by a service that no longer exists, but you can read the coversation. Ooo... on page 4 he switched to photobucket and the account is still active. Yay. And of course it ends in tragedy...
The second thread ends with a fairly predictable result... choosing a new direction.
[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 01-10-2014).]
Originally posted by CMacD: So I checked out some Youtube videos of Ferrari engine sounds. WOW. Those cars sound so out of this world. I don't know that any amount of exhaust tuning on a 6 cylinder GM powerplant is ever going to create anything like that.
You certainly aren't going to get the exact sound from a GM V6 as a Ferrari, but you're certainly not going to get it with a 1000cc motorcycle engine either. Yeah, you'll get 12000 RPM from the tiny engine, but it's not going to sound like a Ferrari. It will sound like a motorcycle engine. The GSX-R engine swapped in the car in that other video sounds the way it does partly because of the engine and partly because of the exhaust, which looks to be styled very much after the Ferrari exhaust design. But it doesn't sound like a Ferrari.
Exhaust tuning can do a lot more for sound than you might think. You're building the car of your dreams. Is a GM V6 part of your dream? If not, what is? V8? DOHC? If you're going to swap the drivetrain, go with what you want. The engine, intake, and exhaust can all be tuned to get a sound close to what you want.
Originally posted by dobey: Exhaust tuning can do a lot more for sound than you might think. You're building the car of your dreams. Is a GM V6 part of your dream? If not, what is? V8? DOHC? If you're going to swap the drivetrain, go with what you want. The engine, intake, and exhaust can all be tuned to get a sound close to what you want.
If not, what is? The most reasonable way to get an Italian (exotic) sound would be it I guess. Personally I have no clue when it comes to engine or exhaust tuning. My impression, from what I read others doing, would be that it is a very inexact science where people cut and paste different options to create something unique. I hope I am wrong about that - but this is how it seems. I have no doubt that people can make a GM V6 sound substantially different from stock but is there a procedure to make one sound like a Ferrari 308 for example? I am not skilled enough at this one to have any confidence that I could get it right unless someone lays it out for me. I think that's why I like the idea of a large bike engine. No it doesn't sound exactly like a Ferrari - but it sure is close right out of the gate.
Originally posted by CMacD: If not, what is? The most reasonable way to get an Italian (exotic) sound would be it I guess. Personally I have no clue when it comes to engine or exhaust tuning. My impression, from what I read others doing, would be that it is a very inexact science where people cut and paste different options to create something unique. I hope I am wrong about that - but this is how it seems. I have no doubt that people can make a GM V6 sound substantially different from stock but is there a procedure to make one sound like a Ferrari 308 for example? I am not skilled enough at this one to have any confidence that I could get it right unless someone lays it out for me. I think that's why I like the idea of a large bike engine. No it doesn't sound exactly like a Ferrari - but it sure is close right out of the gate.
What do you want out of the engine though? HP? Torque? High RPM? Acceleration? Raw power? Or just the sound, and you don't care if your car can move like it looks and sounds or not?
There are literally a million options. You say a large bike engine sounds close to a Ferrari, but I certainly don't think it does. There are very distinct differences between just the sounds, let alone the severe lack of displacement and cylinders the motorcycle engine has. I'd say the stock 5.3 V8 in my truck with factory exhaust sounds more like a Ferrari, than that bike engine does.
Heck, you could go all electric, and install an exterior sound system, and have a sound recording of a Ferrari played back appropriately matching the acceleration and any "gear" changes that happen.
Originally posted by dobey: Heck, you could go all electric, and install an exterior sound system, and have a sound recording of a Ferrari played back appropriately matching the acceleration and any "gear" changes that happen.
OUCH!
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What do you want out of the engine though? HP? Torque? High RPM? Acceleration? Raw power? Or just the sound, and you don't care if your car can move like it looks and sounds or not?
#1 is sound (higher rpm's go here too I think) #2 is about 200 HP (The honest truth is that I won't ever use much more. I'm not the 1/4 mile type of guy.) #3 Fuel economy - I work 35 miles from home and I would like it to be a daily driver in the summer. I'm not saying I need the 50 MPG I get from my TDI but something over 30 would be nice if possible.
When my 23 year old talks about exotic cars the first thing he mentions is top speed and 0-60 times. When I talk about them it has to do with the sexy looks, lines, and sounds. I't can't have the acceleration of a Chevette but it doesn't need to stand toe to toe with a Corvette either.
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There are literally a million options. You say a large bike engine sounds close to a Ferrari, but I certainly don't think it does. There are very distinct differences between just the sounds, let alone the severe lack of displacement and cylinders the motorcycle engine has. I'd say the stock 5.3 V8 in my truck with factory exhaust sounds more like a Ferrari, than that bike engine does.
All the options are what have me a bit concerned. Because I don't have any knowledge of them all I can do is draw upon my experience. And that is limited to the pathetic sounds I hear from tin cans in the city during the summer. Very rarely do I ever hear anything that sounds pleasing to me. Love the notes from the bikes as they zip by, hate the notes from the lowered cars that try to sound like them.
I'd say you want the 3.4 DOHC V6 then. It gives you fair bit more RPM than the stock 2.8, isn't a terribly difficult swap, and the exhaust should be fairly easy to tune to get the sound you want. It has pretty good fuel economy, but 30 MPG is probably a little bit of a stretch.
It's around 200 HP stock, and fairly easy to get the exotic sound out of.
A 2.0 or 2.2 Ecotec 4 cylinder will give you a bit better economy, but isn't 200 HP stock in the easily swappable forms. You could build it up a little and/or go with a turbo to get more power. Exhaust should be fairly easy to tune to get a sound similar to what you want, as well.
Those are probably the two easiest options to get where you want with the engine. Transmission choices can help or hurt fuel economy, and can add quite a bit to the cost, too.
Nice fat tires too. Which brings me to a very important question. Given the short wheelbase of the Fiero what would be the upper limit to the size and width of the tires that I can fit? Tires too wide for such a short car could go beyond looking sweet to just plain stupid I would think. And more importantly they will also dictate the final width of the design. And what about the difference in width of the front tires compared to the rears? Are there formulas for these types of things - or maybe a general rule?
) need to consider is that of power. What engine do you (we 
