"How the A.T.F., Key to Biden’s Gun Plan, Became an N.R.A. ‘Whipping Boy’"
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The federal agency tasked with enforcing gun laws has been hamstrung for years by the firearms lobby. Now, the president’s plan to rein in gun violence hinges on the A.T.F.’s success.
A "read" indeed . . . 16 minutes (Read-o-Meter.) A plethora of photographs. It's protected by a subscriber paywall, but if you haven't been going online (to the New York Times) you would (should) have access as a "freebie." And if not, there's a "hack" that could get you access, that's been shared by forum member maryjane. You can use this link to read what maryjane said about this. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/...ML/126343-2.html#p46
I have not read it or even scrolled through it in any systematic way.
If you are reading this, I think you would not deem it a waste of your time to access the article (if you can do it) and give it a quick "eyes on" to see if it looks like something you would like to read or scroll through.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 05-03-2021).]
Oh the big bad gun lobby representing 5 million citizens? Ha, I would love to hear the salt but alas I cannot force myself to read another progressive diatribe written with the idea that my inalienable constitutional rights are subject to government approval. I am a citizen, not a subject.
I don't know how many guns were "gun-walked" to Mexico during "Fast and Furious" but surely it could only have been like a drop in an ocean of more than 2 million guns.
Would you (2.5) say that the Katie Pavlich video that you just posted contradicts that estimate from Mexico's Foreign Ministry, which was published in the New York Times?
Will you admit that our government violates the regs and laws it claims are there to preserve safety?
Will you admit that our government violates the regs and laws it claims are there to preserve safety?
Why is your question worded in a way that suggests that I have ever denied it?
Yes. Taking the government of the United States at all levels, from the most central and national authorities at the federal level, to the most local offices of regional or county or municipal government, and considering every day of every year from 1787 (or 1619) forwards to date, and considering every possibility for government violating the laws, codes, protocols and executive orders (etc.) that pertain to public safety, occupational safety, transportation safety, firearms safety (etc.), there's no doubt that U.S. government has at certain times and for certain periods of time done exactly that (violations of safety) and will doubtless do so again in the future. It is most assuredly happening at this very moment.
Where does your ask or question take us?
I have not read or even scrolled through the 2A-related article that I just posted (three forum messages back from this one) but I think it's likely there is significant intersectionality between this ask or question from "sourmash" and the content of that article.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 05-03-2021).]
Just reread how you didn't answer the question for insight in why it was asked as it was.
I didn't ask if they acted in a way that subverts public safety. I noted, violates regs and laws, not safety. Laws and regs passed for supposed public safety.
Will you admit that the FEDERAL government, specifically the BATFE, has violated federal regs and laws?
It was asked in an initially certain phrasing because as you know we recognize that your positions are as a media statist and frankly as an apologist for an increasingly authoritarian state.
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 05-03-2021).]
Just reread how you didn't answer the question for insight in why it was asked as it was.
I didn't ask if they acted in a way that subverts public safety. I noted, violates regs and laws, not safety. Laws and regs passed for supposed public safety.
Will you admit that the FEDERAL government, specifically the BATFE, has violated federal regs and laws?
It was asked in an initially certain phrasing because as you know we recognize that your positions are as a media statist and frankly as an apologist for an increasingly authoritarian state.
It seems inescapable that the FEDERAL government, specifically the BATFE, has violated federal laws and regulations. My mind goes to the "Fast & Furious" operation and other similar "gun-walking" operations during the tenure of U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder. But I couldn't tell you exactly which federal laws and regulations were violated. Is there a federal law or regulation (?) that reads "Undercover operations involving straw purchasers of firearms and what would otherwise be illegal firearms trafficking are allowed, but cannot be allowed to spiral out of control and become a government maintained profit center for criminals and criminal organizations."
You changed the wording of your question. Before, you posed it using the present tense: "violates . . ." This time, you used the past tense: "has violated . . ." That makes it easier and more agreeable for me to respond to your question in the affirmative sense of "I admit . . .".
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 05-03-2021).]
Originally posted by Hudini: Oh the big bad gun lobby representing 5 million citizens? Ha, I would love to hear the salt but alas I cannot force myself to read another progressive diatribe written with the idea that my inalienable constitutional rights are subject to government approval. I am a citizen, not a subject.
As I said, I have not read it or even scrolled through it carefully, but I do believe it is chock full of interviews with former ATF managers and agents who describe their experiences at ATF in considerable detail. Think "granular."
One of the for-profit gun dealers calling in for transfers notified the ATF that they were approving multiple gun sale transfers to gang and probable straw purchase buyers. The ATF instructed the store to continue to approve the sales & transfers.
Then the FEDERAL gov goes on the public offensive about the number of American arms being used in cross border crimes.
Originally posted by sourmash: One of the for-profit gun dealers calling in for transfers notified the ATF that they were approving multiple gun sale transfers to gang and probable straw purchase buyers. The ATF instructed the store to continue to approve the sales & transfers. Then the FEDERAL gov goes on the public offensive about the number of American arms being used in cross border crimes.
]Originally posted by sourmash: Your post doesn't contain an accounting from one of the gun stores that the government was using to arm foreign criminal gangs.
And . . ?
Was it the express purpose of the DOJ, as headed up by AG Eric Holder, to provide guns to foreign criminal gangs, or was that just a kind of collateral damage that came about because the undercover operations involving "gun walking" were mismanaged or sloppily managed or became corrupted (bribes; kickbacks; secretive deal making) at the middle and lower levels of supervision within the DOJ?
I think the key phrase in my previous post--that one that I just referenced--is "drop in the ocean."
I think that longish (16 minutes of reading) article in the New York Times that I put on display here previously (should be on this same page of the thread here) would be a good read or browse for someone like yourself, or someone who is interested in what you are saying here.
So why haven't I read it or looked at it more carefully?
Walking a few dozen weapons into the hands of an organized criminal cartel causes more consequences than it does to some coyotes. So there is no drop in a bucket which is equal between the two. Giving a Liberator pistol to a resistance fighter is giving him the op to acquire a real weapon to accomplish his mission.
You can change the entire political structure of a country to ease or abate drug trafficking, human trafficking or drive people into another country as they flee the crime, which is what was done in the ME and is the excuse used by all those economic migrants that flood our Southern border.
If you're saying the illegal activity of our fedgov was a drop in the bucket, you won't find anyone honest who believes your assertion. They emboldened the criminal gangs and today they're emboldening BLM, antifa to commit political violence as well as signaling the invading aliens laws don't matter.
I think you should review some of the earlier posts in this thread. The President and/or his puppeteers are either not concerned with "violence", or they are.. and would like to direct it. They certainly do not have a plan that would reduce it.
I think you should review some of the earlier posts in this thread. The President and/or his puppeteers are either not concerned with "violence", or they are.. and would like to direct it. They certainly do not have a plan that would reduce it.
They don't have a plan to reduce it because the problem is not guns it's people. Do you know the #1 indicator whether someone may become a mass shooter? They grew up in a single parent home. The federal government has made a whole generation of folks dependent on it and then blamed everyone else for the unintended consequences. It's madness blaming me for all the gang shootings in Chicago and other big cities.
To me the biggest indicator that the anti-2A crowd is trying to deceive is the fact that their numbers for "violence" include suicides.
A large number of mass shooters like the Columbine shooters, Adam Lanza, the theatre shooter were on SSRI psychotropics. They inhibit impulse control.
But we should understand that most all shootings are in "diverse" areas. Diverse communities. Diverse cities. Is that how diversity is our strength is evidenced?
They don't have a plan to reduce it because the problem is not guns it's people. Do you know the #1 indicator whether someone may become a mass shooter? They grew up in a single parent home. The federal government has made a whole generation of folks dependent on it and then blamed everyone else for the unintended consequences. It's madness blaming me for all the gang shootings in Chicago and other big cities.
To me the biggest indicator that the anti-2A crowd is trying to deceive is the fact that their numbers for "violence" include suicides.
Their stupid plan (agenda) is stated that its intent is to reduce it, but it only addresses the tool.
But yes I agree! And all the reasons that led to single parent homes...
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Originally posted by sourmash:
A large number of mass shooters like the Columbine shooters, Adam Lanza, the theatre shooter were on SSRI psychotropics. They inhibit impulse control.
"How the A.T.F., Key to Biden’s Gun Plan, Became an N.R.A. ‘Whipping Boy’" "The federal agency tasked with enforcing gun laws has been hamstrung for years by the firearms lobby....."
If you are reading this, I think you would not deem it a waste of your time to access the article (if you can do it) and give it a quick "eyes on" to see if it looks like something you would like to read or scroll through.
Cry me a river, rinselberg that might as well read "the government needs your help to successfully remove your rights."
Cry me a river, rinselberg that might as well read "the government needs your help to successfully remove your rights."
Absolutely.
States are now passing Constitutional Carry legislation. In multiple states you can now carry openly or concealed with out govt permission cards (permits). This should have always been the rule.
Originally posted by sourmash: Absolutely. States are now passing Constitutional Carry legislation. In multiple states you can now carry openly or concealed with out govt permission cards (permits). This should have always been the rule.
That's legislation. I think the most important observation in the NYT report that I referenced is that the A.T.F. has been undercut, so that its managers and agents cannot be effective in enforcing the laws that are in their remit to enforce.
But for certa8in, the aft does retarded things. They said if you use an arm brace on a pistol length ar-15, it's ok. Then they said if you touch it to your shoulder like a stock, you're a felon. They may have changed again since then.
..the A.T.F. has been undercut, so that its managers and agents cannot be effective in enforcing the laws that are in their remit to enforce.
Not undercut enough. They are in many ways redundant, do not use funds efficiently or appropriately. They are in many ways an agency looking for relevancy while constantly dancing on overreach, wasting time putting forth rules defining the characteristics of tools for law abiding citizens that get overturned in courts.
But they FEEL GOOD! Virtue signaling, once again, solves nothing.
Sound good too, sprinkling a facade of caring. The goal and effect of them even if some don't think so, is to disarm the law abiding citizen. Shouldn't be legal to use tax money for this. Bans don't have the advertised effect either, never will.
San Jose: The killer used handguns, so proposed laws regarding rifles would have made no difference. The killer used 15-round mags which are already illegal in CA, so current laws are meaningless. The killer had been saying for years he was going to do this and had previously been detained by CBP upon returning to the US from the Philippines because he had books on terrorism and notes about how he hated the Transit Authority for whom he worked.
I have said many times before, we will not solve the problem unless we are willing to face the problem.
As long as we continue to blame guns, we are only perpetuating the problem. We are taking the easy way out. We are making it worse.
Lead, follow, or get the FLICK out of the way.
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 05-27-2021).]
San Jose: The killer used handguns, so proposed laws regarding rifles would have made no difference. The killer used 15-round mags which are already illegal in CA, so current laws are meaningless. The killer had been saying for years he was going to do this and had previously been detained by CBP upon returning to the US from the Philippines because he had books on terrorism and notes about how he hated the Transit Authority for whom he worked.
I have said many times before, we will not solve the problem unless we are willing to face the problem.
As long as we continue to blame guns, we are only perpetuating the problem. We are taking the easy way out. We are making it worse.
Lead, follow, or get the FLICK out of the way.
Although this is not the place for my comment, since the San Jose shooting was mentioned, I'll share some info.
My friend works at that location and he was standing next to another co-worker when Sam approached them both. Sam stood in front of them, pointed his finger at my friend and said "I'm not going to shoot you", pointed to the co-worker next to him and said "I'm not going to shoot you either", then pointed to the guy right behind my friend and said "I'm going to shoot him".....aimed the gun between my friend and co-workers heads and shot the guy behind them. He knew exactly who he wanted to kill that day.
Not only has failure not been a deterrent, it is has been an incentive to continue doing the same things.
Leftists believe that any failure of government is irrefutable evidence of the need for even more government.
Amen....to wit: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." These words are usually credited to the acclaimed genius Albert Einstein.
[This message has been edited by Sage (edited 05-28-2021).]
There appeared to be plenty of red flags around Cassidy. His ex-wife said he was volatile and talked of killing his coworkers. An ex-girlfriend accused him in a 2009 court filing of “enraged” liquor-fueled mood swings, and a Department of Homeland Security memo obtained by the Wall Street Journal indicated U.S. customs officials had found him with “a black memo book filled with lots of notes about how he hates the VTA.” And in a news release Thursday afternoon, the Santa Clara County Sheriff’s Office said Cassidy “has been a highly disgruntled VTA employee for many years, which may have contributed to why he targeted VTA employees.”
But Santa Clara County District Attorney Jeff Rosen said it did not appear anyone had tried to invoke the red-flag law to disarm Cassidy.
Nobody saw to mention the multiple mass shootings by Blacks, done with handguns. 14 were shot in one event at a party. 8 ot 10 shot in a random crowd as the shooter went after 1 person. That was in the past week.
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Originally posted by williegoat:. I have said many times before, we will not solve the problem unless we are willing to face the problem.
So, what is the problem we need to face? What's the fix?
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As long as we continue to blame guns, we are only perpetuating the problem. We are taking the easy way out. We are making it worse.
Facing the problem sounds like the easy way out to me. So what is it, in your opinion?[/QUOTE]
If we can prevent half of the illegal gun violence by Black males as a start, it would make a big difference, but how do we do that?
Interesting the state with the strictest gun laws has the most problems.
From 5/26
Also Gun Free Zones are a bad idea, common sense tells one that, and Red Flag laws are unconstitutional.
Note: Per Rinselbergs article, he did talk about killing his co workers. That is disturbing.
other articles: "Samuel Cassidy, used three pistols, all legally obtained" "An ex-girlfriend accused him in a 2009 court filing of “enraged” liquor-fueled mood swings"
Originally posted by sourmash: So, what is the problem we need to face? What's the fix?
Probably in most instances it is lack of individual personal responsibility and consequences of actions. That can be broken down all the way through most any instance or example. Not simple or easy though, the kart has long run away without the horse.
According to the Governor... 4090 New Yorkers (with guns that gun laws don't stop of course) out of 19 million New Yorkers...cause 48.5% of the crimes committed with guns.
Also it is now conveniently a disaster emergency and public health emergency, (since the Covid health emergency apparently just ended).
I'm not quite sure whats going on with the narrative here. Playing both sides? Shooting his old arguments in the foot?
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 07-08-2021).]
The ATF still trying to take down manufacturers, and making law abiding citizens felons for being involved in shooting sports, not to mention....having the ability to defend themselves.... meanwhile our country takes its thumbs off of terrorists who threaten us.
