If you go back to my previous message at the very end of Page 3 in this thread, about the op-ed from Ioan Grillo, you would be looking at my previous message . . .
Bet you didn't see that one coming.
Ioan Grillo's thinking starts with the NICS. He wants a more complete implementation of the NICS, nationwide, extending it to purchases at gun shows and "private sales." It's an op-ed, and he's not expressing the specificity and level of detail that would seem to be called for in the drafting of actual legislation, but that's his direction.
Does anyone think that the NICS is going to be canceled in the foreseeable future?
I think it's here to stay, and I think that suggests a very logical question for 2A supporters, 2A enthusiasts and 2A fundamentalists alike.
Is it nobler to endure the slings and arrows of an expansion of the NICS regime to include gun shows and private sales, or to take arms against this idea when the NICS in its current manifestation already resembles a literally permanent fixture of the American 2A landscape for as far ahead as the eye can see?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 02-26-2021).]
As the retina absords light that travels to the eye for neural processing to create vision, we can only see the past.
Tha NICS has always lacked the proper funding for full implementation as written.
Gun show sales are covered under the NICS, and always have been if the seller is a FFL holder. Private sales were specifically and intentionally excluded from the NICS legislation.
Now go do your homework and report back as to why that exclusion was written into the statute.
Originally posted by rinselberg: Does anyone think that the NICS is going to be canceled in the foreseeable future?
I think it's here to stay, and I think that suggests a very logical question for 2A supporters, 2A enthusiasts and 2A fundamentalists alike.
Is it nobler to endure the slings and arrows of an expansion of the NICS regime to include gun shows and private sales, or to take arms against this idea when the NICS in its current manifestation already resembles a literally permanent fixture of the American 2A landscape for as far ahead as the eye can see?
The answer to the question you didn't ask on this post is yes, NICS is an infringement to the American citizens right, that the 2nd Amendment explains. Noble could perhaps be defined as disallowing any further infringement.
This is some text from a report that I essentially came upon just by chance.
quote
A Nevada man is facing multiple charges after being accused of purchasing 283 guns in Utah and selling them in Las Vegas.
[name REDACTED; sex Male; age 32] of Las Vegas, is charged with nine counts of making a false statement, one count of dealing in firearms without a license, and one count of travel within the United State with intent to violate federal law by dealing firearms without a license, according to an indictment.
Charges allege [REDACTED] purchased approximately 283 guns in Utah in 2020. Using a conservative estimate, he spent about $176,000 on the guns, including 147 Glock pistols.
[REDACTED] came to the attention of agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives in Salt Lake City in July after purchasing a large number of firearms during May, June, July, and August throughout Utah.
Agents received federal firearms licensees with numerous locations across the state that [REDACTED] firearms purchases were suspicious in nature given the multiple purchases he made and different explanations he offered to store employees during the transactions, according to the Utah U.S. Attorney's Office.
The ATF also received a tip that [REDACTED] was trafficking the guns in Las Vegas.
According to the indictment, ATF firearms tracing shows that firearms originally purchased by [REDACTED] have been recovered in California by law enforcement officers investigating various crimes.
All 19 of the recovered firearms were recovered within a short time-to-crime ratio of between 2 and 91 days. One of the recovered firearms was used to commit a double murder [in California], according to the complaint.
Under federal law, FFLs are required to send a report to ATF when there is a sale of multiple firearms to the same purchaser within a short period of time. ATF uses the information to investigate potential firearms trafficking cases.
Each count of making a false statement during the acquisition of firearms carries a potential sentence of 10 years in federal prison. Dealing in firearms without a license has a potential five-year sentence. The final count of the indictment, travel within the United States with intent to violate federal law prohibiting dealing in firearms without a license, has a maximum sentence of 10 years.
How come the ATF officials weren't charged with murder in Fast & Furious for telling gun shops to approve the sale of arms when the shops told the ATF they knew the individuals were making straw purchases? One of those rifles was used to kill a Border agent. Gov't was the cause and problem.
One of the mass shooters not long ago wasn't supposed to own arms but NICS approved the sale. Gov't isn't the answer.
The Utah man had probably been warned previously. It's common, but not mandatory, for the ATF to confront and inform private dealers at shows when they're violating this or that. If you do it again they'll let you hang yourself, but usually after the 3rd time while you continue to do it. They'll also falsely accuse your compadres, even confiscating their arms and charging them. Saw it happen to the brother of a man who was dealing guns without a license. His brother wasn't proven to be but still cost him $20k for a lawyer. The agents damaged some of his arms which was just tough crap for him.
Watching how Canada gets screwed will give tips on similar ways they may try and screw us in the future.
The above is an air gun channel, so he takes note that BB, Pellet, and paintball guns are screwed too....
"Oh Canada" why don't you have anything even approximating the original title of this thread?
That is why you have youtube channels of Canadians farting around with BB guns and pellet guns.
They're unarmed subjects, not citizens, and they'll do as they're told.
The United States has over 10X as many firearms in the hands of it's citizens than Canada has total population so I don't think our northern neighbor has much of anything instructive for us regarding gun rights other than how not to form a national constitution.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-03-2021).]
They're unarmed subjects, not citizens, and they'll do as they're told.
The United States has over 10X as many firearms in the hands of it's citizens than Canada has total population so I don't think our northern neighbor has much of anything instructive for us regarding gun rights other than how not to form a national constitution.
I think overall we do agree, the steps they have taken and not taken, could be warnings to us.
Are uninformed/misinformed people who don't seem to use logic, or see a big picture, the real problem our freedoms are always at risk?
I also notice when people talk about important topics like this, there seem to be steps agreed upon, and then the next points made by the interviewee contradict the points they already agreed upon. It is as if everything just said went back out the window. Failure of critical thinking?
Add to that, bad twisted facts.
It is good however, to see some students such as these willing to listen.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 03-10-2021).]
I also notice when people talk about important topics like this, there seem to be steps agreed upon, and then the next points made by the interviewee contradict the points they already agreed upon. It is as if everything just said went back out the window. Failure of critical thinking?
I believe it's more of an inability to coherently organize their thoughts to even get to the point of being able to engage in critical thinking.
Critical thinking is defined as "the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment".
That objective analysis and evaluation first requires putting data into some kind of arrangement or disposition in relation to each other.
It has been my observation that those who rely on their emotions, rather than objective data, to form their ideas and opinions have the most trouble organizing their own thinking, much less being able to properly evaluate data.
I truly believe that is why we see so many Lefties simultaneously holding two or more completely contradictory and irreconcilable positions in their heads and they never give it a whiff of notice or concern.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 03-10-2021).]
I'm thinking for some it falls on ears that hear, that know, and even understand, but willfully act counter to its truth.
I would say many of the deaf ears seem to belong to scared voters who vote for politicians which are against these rights.
The problem is they will only hear what they want to hear. Guns are scary and we are probably going to get killed by a hand guns will be the next thing. It will not end, this will continue until one side or the other loses or blood is spilled and executive orders are signed.
For the record the best home defense weapon is still the shot gun, you want someone to drop a load in their pants rack a 12 ga in a dark room. Personal "defense" weapons are used to protect us from those that are hiding in plain sight, not those that enter in the dark. Both foreign and domestic.
[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 03-19-2021).]
For the record the best home defense weapon is still the shot gun, you want someone to drop a load in their pants rack a 12 ga in a dark room. Personal "defense" weapons are used to protect us from those that are hiding in plain sight, not those that enter in the dark. Both foreign and domestic.
Some thoughts:
Its good to have a light on your weapon to identify the threat, since we don't get to choose when and where they appear
I see Personal vs Home defense as essentially just referring to where you are at a given time, and who is with you.
Foreign and domestic, that brings to mind organized military threats or guerrilla warfare. I do wonder how many nations would think twice before a ground attack on us due to US citizens being armed. If they did, assuming they would not have shotguns as primary weapons, I would prefer something at least similar in effect to their weapons. ...Though the biggest threat may simply be fire.
Its good to have a light on your weapon to identify the threat, since we don't get to choose when and where they appear
I see Personal vs Home defense as essentially just referring to where you are at a given time, and who is with you.
Foreign and domestic, that brings to mind organized military threats or guerrilla warfare. I do wonder how many nations would think twice before a ground attack on us due to US citizens being armed. If they did, assuming they would not have shotguns as primary weapons, I would prefer something at least similar in effect to their weapons. ...Though the biggest threat may simply be fire.
Training and practice. A light wont do you any good if you turn it on and you still cant hit your target. I would also hate to fire something in our house that would penetrate the walls and hurt someone out side of the house. Our home is never really dark, so unless there is a power outage I can see well enough to defend us. Being only two of us I only have to know where one other person is. My girlfriend hates guns, but she understands the need for one.
As for defense against an outside aggressor I would want something that is as equal or better than what they have if possible. It only takes some research to find out how close the Japanese were to California. If something like that happened today, I believe it would end differently. Cut the power and start some fires, **** the entire state could be shut down. My butt just puckered up writing that.
Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey has signed legislation that aims to prohibit police and sheriffs from enforcing federal gun laws that violate the 2nd Amendment.
Be it enacted by the Legislature of the State of Arizona:
Section 1. Title 1, chapter 2, article 4, Arizona Revised Statutes, is amended by adding section 1-272, to read:
1-272. Sovereign authority; right of the people to keep and bear arms
PURSUANT TO THE SOVEREIGN AUTHORITY OF THIS STATE AND ARTICLE II, SECTION 3, CONSTITUTION OF ARIZONA:
1. AN ACT, LAW, TREATY, ORDER, RULE OR REGULATION OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT VIOLATES AMENDMENT II OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES IS NULL, VOID AND UNENFORCEABLE IN THIS STATE.
2. THIS STATE AND ALL POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OF THIS STATE ARE PROHIBITED FROM USING ANY PERSONNEL OR FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO ENFORCE, ADMINISTER OR COOPERATE WITH ANY ACT, LAW, TREATY, ORDER, RULE OR REGULATION OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT VIOLATES AMENDMENT II OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
Way to go, Doug!
[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 04-07-2021).]
"1. AN ACT, LAW, TREATY, ORDER, RULE OR REGULATION OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT VIOLATES AMENDMENT II OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES IS NULL, VOID AND UNENFORCEABLE IN THIS STATE.
2. THIS STATE AND ALL POLITICAL SUBDIVISIONS OF THIS STATE ARE PROHIBITED FROM USING ANY PERSONNEL OR FINANCIAL RESOURCES TO ENFORCE, ADMINISTER OR COOPERATE WITH ANY ACT, LAW, TREATY, ORDER, RULE OR REGULATION OF THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT THAT VIOLATES AMENDMENT II OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES."
THAT IS AWESOME! Wonder if the Federal gov will someday figure out that it isn't allowed to break the fundamental rules either.
From the comments section after an article on former vp bidens executive bloviation.....
"You libs will be happy to hear that my guns are liberal too! - They stay in their safe space almost all of the time doing nothing. - They only work after someone else feeds them. - They are unable to clean or care for themselves. - They make lots of noise and cause destruction. - None have an IQ higher than 60. - and they are easily triggered."
I thought it appropriate, an accurate comparison and funny.
From the comments section after an article on former vp bidens executive bloviation.....
"You libs will be happy to hear that my guns are liberal too! - They stay in their safe space almost all of the time doing nothing. - They only work after someone else feeds them. - They are unable to clean or care for themselves. - They make lots of noise and cause destruction. - None have an IQ higher than 60. - and they are easily triggered."
I thought it appropriate, an accurate comparison and funny.
I wasn't intending to "butt in" here, but I hope it does no harm if I say that I find that funny. About the guns being "liberal." I'm certainly "liberal" by almost any standard.
I say this because I just posted something else that I wanted to single out as funny, from a (generally) opposite or "liberal" perspective, in political terms. Not about guns. About some other thing that surfaced in the news media some days ago. That Topic is working its way down the Front Page. It's currently down in about the 7th slot from the "pole position" at the very top.
I hypothesize that there are people who are ambidextrous (so to speak) in this way--Left and Right--in terms of what strikes them as funny and their willingness and proclivity to admit to what strikes them as funny, and people who only find (or admit to finding) these kinds of jests and satirical "humors" as funny when the humor aligns with their own polarization between Left and Right.
Could I support that hypothesis with data?
You bet I could.
Anyway--"pardon the interruption."
Thinking about it again--I can't give an unqualified pass to that "none [of the guns] have an IQ higher than 60" part." At least, I need to single that out, out of an abundance of caution. That part is (or could be, depending on how it's wielded) a misfire or an ill-aimed shot.
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-26-2021).]
Legal language is precise and individual words have important meaning. Many states are what are called "SHALL ISSUE" states where law says that the applicant (absent any criminal record disqualification) SHALL be issued a concealed carry permit.
Other states, particularly Leftist ones, have "MAY ISSUE" laws where the state decides whether or not the applicant has "a good reason" to be issued the (rare) concealed carry permit.
From the article: "The petition for a writ of certiorari is granted limited to the following question: Whether the State's denial of petitioners' applications for concealed-carry licenses for self-defense violated the Second Amendment," the court said in an order."
That is very "narrow" as far as SCOTUS writs of cert. go and it more than indicates that the court does NOT intend to mess around with other states CCW laws.
[This message has been edited by randye (edited 04-30-2021).]
" "The court rarely takes Second Amendment cases. Now it’s decided to hear one of the most critical Second Amendment issues," NRA Institute for Legislative Action executive director Jason Ouimet said in a statement. "We’re confident that the court will tell New York and the other states that our Second Amendment right to defend ourselves is fundamental, and doesn’t vanish when we leave our homes."
The case will likely be argued in the fall"
I suppose the real argument is what falls under states and what falls under federal.
[This message has been edited by 2.5 (edited 04-28-2021).]
For anyone who doesn't know: How the Fast and Furious scandal is related to the 2nd amendment. Useing the data they purposely caused to claim that there isn't enough gun control regs in the USA. ATF, Attorneys office, and others...
At the 15:55 min mark, and 20:15...
"90% of guns found in Mexico"
Some of the coverup and retaliation: from the 21:30 min mark
Mexico’s Foreign Ministry estimates that more than 2.5 million guns have flooded over America’s southern border [to buyers in Mexico or buyers that took the guns across the border and into Mexico] in the last decade [of 2010 to 2020.]
I don't know how many guns were "gun-walked" to Mexico during "Fast and Furious" but surely it could only have been like a drop in an ocean of more than 2 million guns.
Would you (2.5) say that the Katie Pavlich video that you just posted contradicts that estimate from Mexico's Foreign Ministry, which was published in the New York Times?
[This message has been edited by rinselberg (edited 04-30-2021).]
If Biden and Obrador are serious about stopping the flow of guns, in either direction, maybe they could work together to put up some kind of barrier like...I don't know...maybe a wall or something. If Obrador thinks the guns are coming from the US, maybe he should chip in some pesos...you know...Mexico could maybe PAY FOR THE WALL.
No, I guess that would be just silly, you know...racist or something. Maybe Mexico is racist against gringos. You think?
I don't know how many guns were "gun-walked" to Mexico during "Fast and Furious" but surely it could only have been like a drop in an ocean of more than 2 million guns.
Would you (2.5) say that the Katie Pavlich video that you just posted contradicts that estimate from Mexico's Foreign Ministry, which was published in the New York Times?
About 1800 to 2500 in the largest F&F gunwalking operation, tho ATF says the official # is 1,961 guns but that wasn't the only ATF operation that was done. There were others before that, all part of umbrella Project Gunrunner. Most notable besides F&F was was Operation Wide Receiver that ran from early 2006 to late 2007 and that one lost about 450 guns. '06-'07 was under President G.W. Bush.
We will probably never know the real scope and numbers, as the 2016 House of Rep lawsuit to force Atty General Eric Holder's DOJ to release all gunwalking records was dropped when the Dems took control of congress.
Well well, SCOTUS has decided to take up a gun rights case after 10 years of silence.
"On Monday, the Supreme Court agreed to hear an appeal by two petitioners challenging New York’s denial of their applications for concealed-carry firearm licenses. "
About 1800 to 2500 in the largest F&F gunwalking operation, tho ATF says the official # is 1,961 guns but that wasn't the only ATF operation that was done. There were others before that, all part of umbrella Project Gunrunner. Most notable besides F&F was was Operation Wide Receiver that ran from early 2006 to late 2007 and that one lost about 450 guns. '06-'07 was under President G.W. Bush.
We will probably never know the real scope and numbers, as the 2016 House of Rep lawsuit to force Atty General Eric Holder's DOJ to release all gunwalking records was dropped when the Dems took control of congress.
Are you insinuating our government doesn't want to pursue the truth openly?
[This message has been edited by sourmash (edited 05-02-2021).]
I don't know how many guns were "gun-walked" to Mexico during "Fast and Furious" but surely it could only have been like a drop in an ocean of more than 2 million guns.
Would you (2.5) say that the Katie Pavlich video that you just posted contradicts that estimate from Mexico's Foreign Ministry, which was published in the New York Times?
Will you admit that our government violates the regs and laws it claims are there to preserve safety?
