quote Originally posted by avengador1: Looks like Tinton upset the apple cart and got himself banned.

Why do you say that?

quote Originally posted by MadMark: Obviously something happened, I just looked him up on the member list and he is gone. As clueless as he seemed to be, he seemed harmless. If he was banned, what was it for?

You can see his status of banned in this thread.

I basically don't give negatives. Honestly, everyone on here that I've disagreed with has a positive from me.

But I gave him a negative, as obviously... so did several others.


I'm cool with people expressing their views... but there are only four things in this world that I hate more than anything.

1 - Communists / Communism
2 - Minivans
3 - Deer Ticks
4 - People who act like they are victims.

He basically met two of those categories.

Sorry...

As you can well imagine, he and I do not agree with much of anything. But, I would never give him a bad rating for that. Oh well, he was fun to one sided debate with.

quote Originally posted by MadMark: Obviously something happened, I just looked him up on the member list and he is gone. As clueless as he seemed to be, he seemed harmless. If he was banned, what was it for?

From Cliff's own words:
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quote Originally posted by Tinton: I bet I can get banned by the end of the weekend based just on political beliefs. Not even flaming or personal attacks or anything .

Wow, are you really that stupid? You inject a sick political remark into a thread which is about the death of innocent people (children) then claim that if you get banned it's because of your political believes? Are you for real?

Let me help you out here. I will ban you so you can't blame anyone else but me. And you can't say it's because of your political beliefs because as a Dutch guy, I couldn't care less whether you are a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Constitutionalist, or whatever you can think of.

So for the record, you were banned because you are a moron. And that's a first.
------------

I felt he deserved to be banned.

quote Originally posted by theBDub: Wow, are you really that stupid? You inject a sick political remark into a thread which is about the death of innocent people (children) then claim that if you get banned it's because of your political believes? Are you for real? Let me help you out here. I will ban you so you can't blame anyone else but me. And you can't say it's because of your political beliefs because as a Dutch guy, I couldn't care less whether you are a Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, Constitutionalist, or whatever you can think of. So for the record, you were banned because you are a moron. And that's a first. ------------ I felt he deserved to be banned.

I missed it, but in this case i do agree with the action. What tinton said went way beyond 'healthy disagreement' and was uncalled for..

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 09-16-2012).]

I didn't see that thread and that thread and the actions that Cliff took are fine with me.

I´m sorry to see someone banned. I think people should calm down a bit and think before writing down something they cannot take back.
I can tell you a story about freedom and communists. The second world war started when Stalin and Hitler agreed to divide Europe. Finland (my country) was given to Stalin. They started the war when the earth was frozen enough to carry their tanks. So that was autumn 39. In Poland those two armys met and they saluted eachother. Finland was asking help from US but was denied because we had war going on. In the same time US was selling gasoline to soviets so they could use their tanks. Commies put one million men with motorized army 3000 tanks and 3800 planes against us while Finland population was 3,5 million, 32 tanks and 114 planes which were old. It took 110 days and they were stopped. Then the commies started new war by bombing 18 towns. Then Finnish troops went over the border and attacked Soviet troops pushing them far from the border. But what happened.
United States gave notice the diplomatic relations and England declared war to Finland. Huge US material help was seen in the front line against us and even 600 US bombers were sent to destroy Finnish front lines. Luckily a heavy thunder storm stopped them. We lost the war and some land but stayed independent. So we could say"we know what is freedom" but did they who were against us.
My father was there the whole time and my mother was a volunteer to collect the bodies and pack them into coffins to be sent home.
You can bet that in the family the word socialist or communist were not favorite. However they wanted that everyone in the country has reasonable social security.
If you read the latest Time you can see that a lot of things in US are subsidized by covernement. Is that socialism?
And what comes to the taxes, every country collects the taxes somehow. You should not look the income tax only but look the bottom line tax value, then you know how much average person pays taxes. If rich people pays low taxes then someone is payin for them.
EG. we didn´t have earlier real estate taxes but high income taxes. Now the income taxes are lower but I´m paying almost 1000 euros real estate taxes (two years ago it was half). So what is the result? Nothing or perhaps worse. The school is free (best in the world), medicare is low priced (my medical bill is about 2000 bucks a month and I pay 1,50 euros per medicine after certain level). US is using 1,6 times more money per person than in Finland for medical care. So this subsidized system is more efficient than US. And it is always possible to go to private school and hospital if one likes.
So my point is that please do not call us socialists because we are not (we were the only one to fight them) and find out the truth behind the figures. The Nordic countries are quite similiar and are perhaps best doing compared the rest of the world. However there is much to do here and the only thing to do things is democracy not to ban people thinking other ways (that is more mullah way).
Take care. It´s Fiero we love.

quote Originally posted by Fieromotion: I´m sorry to see someone banned. I think people should calm down a bit and think before writing down something they cannot take back. I can tell you a story about freedom and communists. The second world war started when Stalin and Hitler agreed to divide Europe. Finland (my country) was given to Stalin. They started the war when the earth was frozen enough to carry their tanks. So that was autumn 39. In Poland those two armys met and they saluted eachother. Finland was asking help from US but was denied because we had war going on. In the same time US was selling gasoline to soviets so they could use their tanks. Commies put one million men with motorized army 3000 tanks and 3800 planes against us while Finland population was 3,5 million, 32 tanks and 114 planes which were old. It took 110 days and they were stopped. Then the commies started new war by bombing 18 towns. Then Finnish troops went over the border and attacked Soviet troops pushing them far from the border. But what happened. United States gave notice the diplomatic relations and England declared war to Finland. Huge US material help was seen in the front line against us and even 600 US bombers were sent to destroy Finnish front lines. Luckily a heavy thunder storm stopped them. We lost the war and some land but stayed independent. So we could say"we know what is freedom" but did they who were against us.

Nothing personal, but I think you left out the part where Finland were German sympethizers. They let the Germans use their airports and military bases to stage attacks. They also fought side-by-side with German soldiers at one point... so... no victim story there.

But aside from all that, I still like Finland, they make the best Formula-1 drivers.

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: Nothing personal, but I think you left out the part where Finland were German sympethizers. They let the Germans use their airports and military bases to stage attacks. They also fought side-by-side with German soldiers at one point... so... no victim story there. But aside from all that, I still like Finland, they make the best Formula-1 drivers.

Don't they make read heads too? Or is that just Ireland?

quote Originally posted by theBDub: I felt he deserved to be banned.

Although it seemed to me that lately he was jumping around picking fights, and although the turning of some kids dieing horrably into a political thing was at the worst in bad taste, I do not think he deserved a ban.
That is what the ratings are suposedly for.

But all that is moot.
It seems to me he requested a ban.
And his request was granted.

And although Mr. Pennock stated he was banned for being a moron, I think Cliff was just being funny.
Because if Cliff starts banning for moronism, literally half of T/OT is goooooooone.
And I don't exclude me in that Rapture.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 09-17-2012).]

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Don't they make read heads too? Or is that just Ireland?

Not sure, but they definitely have the best F1 drivers...

Kimmi Raikonnen, Mika Hakkinnen, Heikki Kovalainnen... and there was another one too... Nocolai Makinnen too I think?

Now that I think about it... I think all the Harkonnen in DUNE were Finnish too and not really from Geidi Prime... hahah...

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Although it seemed to me that lately he was jumping around picking fights, and although the turning of some kids dieing horrably into a political thing was at the worst in bad taste, I do not think he deserved a ban. That is what the ratings are suposedly for. But all that is moot. It seems to me he requested a ban. And his request was granted. And although Mr. Pennock stated he was banned for being a moron, I think Cliff was just being funny. Because if Cliff starts banning for moronism, literally half of T/OT is goooooooone. And I don't exclude me in that Rapture.

Yeah, I rate more frequently than others do.

quote Originally posted by Tinton: Republitard policy of being greedy, me me me, everyone look out for themself leaves many people left behind. Socialism = win. I''ll give up the dream of being ludicrously wealthy in order for more people to be happy. If you've got a job that would make you wealthy anyways, its not like socialism would make you POOR. Those who believe differently are at the very least misanthropes, and the extreme right-wing idiots border on anarchists.

This is from the guy that went to college on his families dime, and purchased his house from trust fund money. (I still have the chat log somewhere from him telling me about it.)

quote My life is straightened out much better than anyone else I know. I'd like to think I know how to manage things quite efficiently.

Man, looks straightened out to me. Good thing someone else was willing to break their back so you could be the person you became.

quote Originally posted by Tinton: I've been to France. Its not that bad...but honestly I was just using it as an example, its not where I'd actually move. I lived in the UK for a while. I got medical treatment there for $50 that would've cost $1000+ here. And if I'd been a citizen of the UK it would've been free. Health and working conditions are most important to me. Here in the US for salaried positions you're hired on for 40 hours/week, but they expect 50-60 or more. Fark that. Something like 5 days off per year? **** THAT. France and many countries over in Europe you can expect as much as a month or 2 off per year.

I remember that, it was your awesome summer trip through Europe, or was it around the world. I forget. In any case it was an awesome trip, you had a lot of fun, and didn't have to pay for that yourself either.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: That there should tell you something .. if no one agrees with you, one must question your own sense of reality.

Here is to hoping he grows up and grows out of this mindset he seems locked into. Tinton isn't a bad guy, just seems stuck in a juvenile mindset and that he does great in life.

(I liked the part where he talked about socialism being better because it takes away greed, then bragged about how much money he was going to make.)

Brad

[This message has been edited by twofatguys (edited 09-17-2012).]

German lovers? Hmm. There were two wars we had with soviets. My version was very brief about the game. The winter war was the first one where Germany and Soviets were allies. Would you really think the Finns trusted both of them. After this war we had about a year peace time which ended to the soviet bombing. During the piece negotiation we had to give the south peninsula Hanko area to soviets. Finns tried to have military coalition with Sweden but Stalin denied it (later he found he made a mistake). Germans asked permission to use northern harbours for moving troops to north and that was given. Germans had used Sweden for transportation and they bought Swedish steel for weapons. Should we blame Swedes. No, I don´t think so. It was not ethic but they ketp the country out of war and earned well. I don´t even blame US not helping us but I blame US to help commies.
Yes we fighted with nazies against Soviet but our leaders kept saying that it was separate war and they never signed a paper where Finland was linked to nazies like other countries did. Almost in the end of the war president Ryti signed a personal contract with Germans to get more material help to stop the Soviets. This contract binded himself to Germany. The covernement and people was left out. Could you think some politician doing that now. Soviets tried a break through in Karjala isthmus with fire which was heavier than D day in Normandy but they did not succeed. One of the reasons was new one man tank destroyers from Germany. Ryti wrote to his diary. If you have to choose from two evils, choose the less bad.
After the war US lended money to Finland because we had to pay all damage we caused to Soviets. Later have come up that US and Finnish armies had reconnaissance and intelligence cooperation after the war against Soviet.
Are we victims. Of course we were victims of others political and material greed. But do I feel like victim? No, absolutely not. I´m proud of my father and mother who put their lives to save the country and fight communism and built the country from almost zero to one of the welthiest in the world. Do I need sympathy? No, I need good and reliable friends who say what they have to say.
This whole proces from my side started from the words freedom and socialists. I hope I made my point that the world is not black and white and everyone makes good and bad choices. If they are happy with their choice that is fine.
Earlier referred to Time magazine. That is Time September 17 which has interesting column, "the welfare state". It´s good to know how the things are in the world. I can always correct locals if they give a wrong statement. I have also seen that you guys have good knowledge even from tiny Finland. Actually I was surprised. Good for you.
Take care

Hello and nice stories that put a human side to the suffering of WW2. Thanks Norm

Thanks everyone if you red my blast. If I´m going back to the original subject of French 75% income tax. I believe that is only political theatre. If a high income person lives in France it is for sure he finds a way not to pay high income taxes. I don´t know the French tax laws but here in Finland you can, if you have your own company, decide not to take salary from the company. Then the income tax is zero. Then you take the same amount as a divident which are tax free. As a result you earn a lot without tax. Then someone else has higher taxes. Usually those have salary payments.
One notice about the socialists (missleded). I believe in France like in Finland the so call socialists are wealthy people. Here they have their houses cars vacation houses etc. I cannot believe that they like to give those away to common use (in socialism one cannot own anything) or given to those who don´t have. Anyway they do have that possibillity all the time. They should walk as they talk. RIP.
That´s all folks.

I'm loving this...

http://www.foxnews.com/worl...an/?intcmp=obnetwork

quote Originally posted by Uaana: ?? So the question is, why aren't you taking it? That's a resume' builder. Little story, I moved from N. MN where $8 an hour was good pay to the T.C. metro area, doubled my income as in I went from $15k a yr to about $30k just by moving south 120 miles. Banged about the first 2 years and had an OMG a $12 an hr job fall in my lap (remember where I came from) I've been with this company 12yrs as of the 14th. I started in Customer Service.. But fought my way up. I'm not top level now by any stretch, but making a comfortable +$60k salary. I've got what you're looking for, but worked my way up to get it. I know what you're talking about 50-60 yrs ago.. In the town I grew up in, you went to H.S. and then you went to work for the railroad end of story. Solid pay, nice life.. Then the 70's/80's hit death of the steel industry. Death of the "I pull this lever" and make $50k a year union job. Sorry, we're not an industrial nation anymore end of story. Now you have to grow your skill set and show you know what you're doing. FYI, I'm an Operations Manager.. The position in my company didn't exist last year I created it. Basically I'm a triage/fixit manager. One half keep the wheels on the bus rolling, and one half find a better way of doing things. Last year I'd peaked at the position I was at, 6mos later two dept's were in a bidding war over me. I think I'm doing just fine for a H.S. drop out, Former Marine combat engineer. It wasn't handed to me, I worked for it.. Why do you think you should just jump to my level? Yes you might have some skills at making sure the button turns green when pressed, but do you know the commerce system? Do you know how it interacts with the SAP and fulfillment system? Have you built up a network of experts within a company you can call on to help you trouble shoot an issue? BTW you might want to try oh.. networking? Ever heard of Linkedin? I've been approached by 3 companies and 4 former employers for positions.. but like you.. I'm a lil lazy and don't what to give up the benefits I've got for the risk of more work and less benefits.. even if it is a little more money.. "Is the juice worth the squeeze"

Thanks for the story.
In 1987 I was making $19 a hour in construction and had noticed how used up the 40 year old guys were compared to my Dad and looked to change fields. I willingly took $8 a hour at 20 years old to be in a field that does not use you up. 13 years of steady work and too slow of raises, and I did not make that much but, with great experience including some years that I took all the overtime I could get to pay for a big gun collection. After that I was able to take a good position in a Network Operations Center at $21 a hour. I went for another 8 years until I made almost $30 a hour when the job went overseas. I eagerly took whatever job I could get after because I know that no job is a dead end unless you let it. You can always expand on the experience. My current employer recognized the value of my diversified experience and after one nice raise, I am close to where I was at the NOC job.

The thing is, life is about choices, I have made many choices that others would not and it is because of who I am that it works for me.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: (I liked the part where he talked about socialism being better because it takes away greed, then bragged about how much money he was going to make.) Brad

Heh, i had missed that...

He also bragged about getting paid under the table so he didn't have to pay so much taxes.

An interesting update, no surprise.


French tycoon's threat shakes Socialist tax plan


"Bernard Arnault — the richest man in Europe — has ignited an uproar in France over taxes, citizenship, patriotism and what policies the government needs to promote growth."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/worl...-plan/#ixzz28GOBLiVh

http://www.foxnews.com/worl...-socialist-tax-plan/

quote Originally posted by 82-T/A [At Work]: I'm loving this... http://www.foxnews.com/worl...an/?intcmp=obnetwork

I AM SURE THAT SOB NEEDS ALL 42 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TAX WEALTH NOT INCOME
THAT IS WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: An interesting update, no surprise. French tycoon's threat shakes Socialist tax plan "Bernard Arnault — the richest man in Europe — has ignited an uproar in France over taxes, citizenship, patriotism and what policies the government needs to promote growth." Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/worl...-plan/#ixzz28GOBLiVh http://www.foxnews.com/worl...-socialist-tax-plan/

This is just one guy, what do you think will happen with the rest of the producers and workers?

Atlas Has Shrugged!

quote Originally posted by ray b: I AM SURE THAT SOB NEEDS ALL 42 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TAX WEALTH NOT INCOME THAT IS WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS

You're right--he's the greedy one.

"That is where the real money is" I can almost see you doing the Mr. Burns.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I AM SURE THAT SOB NEEDS ALL 42 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TAX WEALTH NOT INCOME THAT IS WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS

Why should you care what he has? Or are you so jealous that you cannot stand anyone who has more than you? As Ayn Rand would say, you are a looter.

quote Originally posted by MadMark: Why should you care what he has? Or are you so jealous that you cannot stand anyone who has more than you? As Ayn Rand would say, you are a looter.

GOOD

ANNIE WAS A LOONIE
AND A CLASS B WITCH
AND A POOR WRITER

quote Originally posted by ray b: GOOD ANNIE WAS A LOONIE AND A CLASS B WITCH AND A POOR WRITER

Ah the refuge of the unintelligent, ad hominem attacks. Just for your information she has sold an awful lot of books, which seems to refute your aligations on it face, but I wouldn't expect you to have read them since your comprehension level is so low. Maybe someday we can have Atlas Shrugged done up in a comic book format just for you.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I AM SURE THAT SOB NEEDS ALL 42 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! TAX WEALTH NOT INCOME THAT IS WHERE THE REAL MONEY IS

I am going to ask you to take 2 steps back. People with 42Billion are the one that were supposed to buy up divisions of GM that they deemed worthy, not the government. People that figure out how to earn and accumulate that kind of money are the ones that can bring back and make profitable companies that failed to exercise good judgement. I might buy up a failed city if I can get the money together sometime soon. What do you suppose Stockton CA is worth after all the debts and obligation go in the trash?

quote Originally posted by FriendGregory: People with 42Billion are the one that were supposed to buy up divisions of GM that they deemed worthy, not the government. People that figure out how to earn and accumulate that kind of money are the ones that can bring back and make profitable companies that failed to exercise good judgement. I might buy up a failed city if I can get the money together sometime soon. What do you suppose Stockton CA is worth after all the debts and obligation go in the trash?

Well said sir.
Buying a city, any city, to me, sounds an awful lot like a headache. A perpetual headache.

quote Originally posted by ray b: I AM SURE THAT SOB NEEDS ALL 42 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Need is not relevant. All you *need* is a cave, a rock to sit on and some scavenged food, anything else is aspiring to be more and no one has a right to say you have enough.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: Need is not relevant. All you *need* is a cave, a rock to sit on and some scavenged food, anything else is aspiring to be more and no one has a right to say you have enough.

IN NUT-CON DOGMA BEING A PIG HAS BECOME A VIRTUE

THAT WHY THE ONLY FAIR TAX IS A TAX ON WEALTH
IT WORKS FINE ON HOUSES
EVERYONE PAYS BASED ON THE PROPERTY VALUE
WHY NOT TAX ON WHAT THEY OWN
INSTEAD OF EARNINGS OR SPENDING [SALES TAX] ?

i HAVE HEARD A LOT OF INSULTS ON THAT IDEA
BUT NO REAL DEBATE ON THE FAIRNESS OR JUSTICE OF SUCH A TAX PLAN

quote Originally posted by ray b: IN NUT-CON DOGMA BEING A PIG HAS BECOME A VIRTUE THAT WHY THE ONLY FAIR TAX IS A TAX ON WEALTH IT WORKS FINE ON HOUSES EVERYONE PAYS BASED ON THE PROPERTY VALUE WHY NOT TAX ON WHAT THEY OWN INSTEAD OF EARNINGS OR SPENDING [SALES TAX] ? i HAVE HEARD A LOT OF INSULTS ON THAT IDEA BUT NO REAL DEBATE ON THE FAIRNESS OR JUSTICE OF SUCH A TAX PLAN

So what you want is to tax what someone has accumulated eh? Well, most people accumulate money, property and wealth by holding onto what they have and not doing and buying every new toy out there. So you want to punish people who have chastened themselves and denied themselves over the years? Why? They earned it. They paid taxes on it while they were earning it. You had nothing to do with this accumulation of weath.

So then what you want is for wastefull people to get the benefit of the frugalness of this other person? How is that fair?

If you go out and waste your life away by not working, by taking drugs, by over indulging in alchohol you think you deserve to take from someone else? You sir are a cretin a thief and a looter.

quote Originally posted by ray b: IN NUT-CON DOGMA BEING A PIG HAS BECOME A VIRTUE

Yes, striving to better yourself is a virtue.. If you want to call that being a pig, so be it.

quote Originally posted by User00013170: He wants to prevent them from accumulating in the fist place. Personal wealth inst compatible in a socialist society.

So then what he wants is to bring everyone down to his level. How nice of you RayB.

Wouldn't it be better to let people have the opportunity to better themselves?

quote Originally posted by MadMark: So then what he wants is to bring everyone down to his level. How nice of you RayB. Wouldn't it be better to let people have the opportunity to better themselves?

That is how socialism works. Forced equality, towards the lowest common denominator. ( as opposed to Communism, which operates off voluntary equality )