quote Originally posted by SGS: No, apparently you weren't paying attention. In my example, you don't have a choice because the chain put the mom and pops out of business. You, as a customer, are now a captive market. You don't have an option. The only parts store at your disposal is the chain. And what's unfair about that trade practice? Who is it unfair to and why? Technically, shoplifitng would be considered an "unfair trade practice". Unfair to the merchant, not the thief.

True, the thief no longer believes he is wrong, if he ever did--regardless of what the law says. His belief doesn't change the fact that he has broken the law.

own pg 6

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-13-2010).]

Ironic that people are arguing about Microsoft has a monopoly in a thread about stealing Mac OSX.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Did I say or infer that you did? I simply asked a question.

Oh, your right.
You asked:

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Is that all you got out of his post?

I should have replied, "All of what?".

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Do stand by your "words" that your mom went to Best Buy and bought you Win 7 as a gift?

I never ment that, which is why I said "a copy", and not "the copy".
It was being used as an example, to counter your insistance that FREE equates to STOLEN.
And I stated it in that form, as you well know.
Here it is below:

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Did you recieve Win7 from someone for free?

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: You mean like a copy that my Mother bought me from BestBuy for Christmas? See what I mean? Free don't mean stolen. The question should be, "Did you recieve an illegal copy of Windows 7 from someone?"

It was used as an example to illistrate that you could not seem to form the correct question.
It was not ment in the literal sense, nor was it formed that way.
But you know that, as I have explaned it to you several times already.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-12-2010).]

Actually--I do not know the difference between "a" copy and "the" copy. When I buy software, I just have the original from the store and that's it. As I understand it, any copy you might make is for personal use as backup only and that is it. The copies are not to be given away to other people to use or to be sold. Is that an incorrect understanding?

I do not form my sentence structure to suit the person answering. One of my peeves in life is that people tend to make up a question in their mind and answer that one instead of the one that was asked. It may make it easier on them, but it doesn't answer the question that was asked.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Actually--I do not know the difference between "a" copy and "the" copy.

I was using "a copy" as a fictional depiction, as opposed to "the copy", which implies a more physical exsistence.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: When I buy software, I just have the original from the store and that's it. As I understand it, any copy you might make is for personal use as backup only and that is it. The copies are not to be given away to other people to use or to be sold. Is that an incorrect understanding?

No, you are correct.


.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-12-2010).]

This just keep getting better. SGS claims he is an engineer in the energy industry yet he is too cheap to pay for software.

Hey look, I'm an engineer!

Just in case he tries to edit it

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: I never said in no uncertain terms that I was 100% against unlawful downloads. I said it was stealing & wrong, plain & simple. I never 100%ed anything. And I don't think I have ever been sure enough of anything to state "in no uncertain terms". My words are effed up enough most of the time on their own, so much so that they don't require any twisting simply to try to prove a point by twisting them soley for the purpose of using them against me.

I posted that in your defense, as that's how I remembered it. Didn't go back and re-read it, as I didn't think it neccessary. You were certain enough about it to start a thread about it, so i figured you at least felt pretty strongly about it. 51%?

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: This just keep getting better. SGS claims he is an engineer in the energy industry yet he is too cheap to pay for software. Hey look, I'm an engineer! Just in case he tries to edit it

No what gets better is you making **** up about what I said.

In fact, on the previous page of THIS thread, I said:

quote Most of the pirated stuff I have is NOT because I couldn't afford it, I just thought that the value to the consumer was woefully low.

Which makes you an idiot.

quote Originally posted by SGS: Which makes you an idiot.

It makes you a cheap skate thief. You have a job and you can afford to pay for your software. You choose to steal it instead. That makes you lower than someone who steals because they can't afford it.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You were certain enough about it to start a thread about it, so i figured you at least felt pretty strongly about it. 51%?

Eh, 51% is fair.

I hope others don't judge my "certainty" by the threads I start!

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: It makes you a cheap skate thief. You have a job and you can afford to pay for your software. You choose to steal it instead. That makes you lower than someone who steals because they can't afford it.

Possibly. But I could right my wrongs and no longer steal.

You'll always be an idiot.

My first post to this thread Boonie was simply to point out that to do this for $240 you couldn't unless you either pirated the software (OSX) or had a legal copy for free and installed it on the machine which is a violation of Apple's EULA. The author of the article (NOT YOU) made it pretty clear he pirated the software.

I never thought YOU did this and in fact you later made it clear you had no real desire to do it (build the computer or steal the OS), but you found it interesting and posted the write up. There's nothing wrong with that, IMHO. I recall a while back where you posted that you decided to get rid of (most/all) of your downloaded software because you didn't think it was right to use it. Certainly nothing wrong with that either. IOW's, I have no problem with you posting the article or most of your comments later, even though I don't always agree.

To be honest, it's a good way to get a cheap but fast Mac. If I had a legal copy of OSX I might even do it, even though it violates Apple's EULA, but I wouldn't steal the OS to do it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Eh, 51% is fair. I hope others don't judge my "certainty" by the threads I start!

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If I had a legal copy of OSX I might even do it, even though it violates Apple's EULA, but I wouldn't steal the OS to do it. John Stricker

But if you had a legal copy and did this, it would then be an ILLEGAL copy. You would be violating Apple's EULA, breaking the law, and you would be costing Apple money.

So in other words, you didn't pirate the OS, you would be pirating Apple's proprietary hardware.

So after YOU throwing many of under the bus for piracy, you just said you might do something like this. Interesting.

First of all, I shouldn't be posting at all in this thread since I have no clue what it's about. But I glanced over it and saw people making remarks about pirated software. So I wanted to get my 2c in on that subject. So please bear in mind that's the only thing I'm offering my opinion on.

quote Originally posted by SGS: This is probably the most interesting and thought provoking comment in this entire thread related to piracy. Cliff, at first you compare it to raping an expensive call girl that you can't afford, then you freely admit you do it. Piracy that as, not raping call girls. Based on your analogy, would you rape an expensive call girl if you had the opportunity? Of course not. That's what makes many of these analogies invalid.

No, of course I wouldn't rape a girl. The whole point of my post was to show you that by using the same mindset, you could justify raping a girl. Sorry you missed that point. It's probably because my native language is not English that I couldn't get that across.

quote You also mention that you "always try to pay for the software if you can."

I did a literal translation from Dutch to English. I meant to say "always try to pay for the software when I can". Not that it matters much, but just wanted to set that straight.

quote So does that mean that not being able to afford it is justification?

Errr. I'm pretty sure I said I don't try to justify it. I'm fully aware it's wrong and illegal. But when I have money to spare on my computer, it first goes toward the software I'm using which has not been paid for (yet). And that's the problem with most users who are pirating software. They will use the money on anything else first, before actually using it on paying for the software. They'll spend hundreds of dollars modding their system, getting the latest SLI'd videocards, using watercooling with LED lighting in every tube, using the latest Alienware fans, etc, etc. They spend hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars - and for what? So they can show off how good that pirated game runs which would have cost them $50 if they bought it legally.

So again, yes, I sometimes use pirated software. But I don't try to justify it by saying it's not stealing. It is. But I'm also fully aware there's a difference between stealing a pencil or a TV from a store. They're both still stealing though.

First off, let's be very clear. I called you no names. I said

quote Finally, for you to make these analogies to try to justify your illegal behavior has me convinced you are most likely a morally bankrupt idiot, if you believe what you're typing.

I intentionally added the last part because in several posts you added "playing devil's advocate" or something similar. That leads me to be uncertain as to what you really believe and what you're just making up to stimulate the discussion.

In response to that I was called by you, with no reservations, a "typical brainless American consumer". I assure you I am not. I recognize that others own things that are not mine, they are offered to the market at a price THEY set, and I make the determination if it's worth that amount to me to pay for it or I simply don't have it. I won't decide that it's overpriced and therefore I'm entitled to steal it from them. That is the whole point of the discussion and the point you have made over and over again, that you are entitled to steal or take IP if you think it's over valued. You are NOT entitled to do that and you are both morally and legally wrong for doing so.

I think you've illustrated your point fairly well. One can only hope the FBI has also seen your illustrations and show you the error of your ways.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by SGS: Wow, now we have resorted to name calling. John, I'm sorry that your the typical brainless American consumer that's willing to take it in the chute at the hands of people who are obviously more intelligent than you, and can freely bilk you out of your money while having you love them for it. I have only been trying to illustrate that there is another side of the story that leads people to act as they do, but as you said early on, it's all black and white. Yep, no gray area. I'm going jail, hell, etc., and Microsoft deserves my first born because I pirated their software....but they have done nothing wrong at all. So I guess I'll give up on trying to illustrate my point, since no one seems to want to genuinely explore the other side of the coin. We've been discussing every possible facet of piracy being wrong, but at the mention of the fact that there's another side of the story, everyone pretty much denies it.

quote Originally posted by SGS: Possibly. But I could right my wrongs and no longer steal. You'll always be an idiot.

Except your name calling is an opinion and my label of you is a fact admitted to by your own words.

[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 01-12-2010).]

i like potatoes.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Except your name calling is an opinion and my label of you is a fact admitted to by your own words.

No, you talking out of your ass in more than one thread and being instantly refuted with facts by multiple posters pretty much means it's a fact that you're an idiot. The funny thing is that you could have spent a few minutes researching before you opened your mouth, and you wouldn't have made yourself out to be so ignorant of the topics being discussed.

And hey, you said that you pretty much believed the electric car documentary, which shows how your thought process works. I think you were the ONLY person in that thread that had that opinion about the documentary after the actual facts started rolling in.

It's called thinking. You should really try it sometime.

So just to recap, you should think more, and talk less.

Since I explained what industry I worked in, maybe you can do the same...because you strike me as the type of guy who messes up my order at Taco Bell.

LOL.

Apparently somebody's panties are in a wad.

Even if I did work at Taco Bell, I would still be a better person than you, thief.

How does it feel to know that people working at Taco Bell are more honest than you are?

quote Originally posted by SGS: No, you talking out of your ass in more than one thread and being instantly refuted with facts by multiple posters pretty much means it's a fact that you're an idiot. The funny thing is that you could have spent a few minutes researching before you opened your mouth, and you wouldn't have made yourself out to be so ignorant of the topics being discussed. And hey, you said that you pretty much believed the electric car documentary, which shows how your thought process works. I think you were the ONLY person in that thread that had that opinion about the documentary after the actual facts started rolling in. It's called thinking. You should really try it sometime. So just to recap, you should think more, and talk less. Since I explained what industry I worked in, maybe you can do the same...because you strike me as the type of guy who messes up my order at Taco Bell.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: So again, yes, I sometimes use pirated software. But I don't try to justify it by saying it's not stealing. It is. But I'm also fully aware there's a difference between stealing a pencil or a TV from a store. They're both still stealing though.

Cliff, nothing against you, but I wonder if any of what you said will go unchallanged?

I'm just trying to figure out what the difference is between me & you in this instance.
As you can read in this thread, I pretty much got pulled over the coals for saying almost the same thing.

Is it becouse you own this site, and some people see that as power, and don't want to chance challenging that power?
But it is OK to ream me out, simply becouse I have no precieved power.
Which could be extended to say that it is ok to look the other way when the powerfull steal, but not the powerless?
Or is it just a matter of "being liked"?

Believe me when I say this is not about you at all.
Or even about you getting reamed equal to me.

This is about the double-standard exibited by some here, when it comes to the opinions & actions of others.
If someone gets reamed for supposed "stealing", I would expect everyone in that same boat to get the exact same treatment from those that have made it their job to repremand this sort of thing.

Nothing personal.
As it should be.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Eh, 51% is fair. I hope others don't judge my "certainty" by the threads I start!

No I don't judge anyone, but I do compliment you on the subject matter of your posts.

I actually was looking at web pages of "rolling your own.." errrm I mean making a PC into a mac.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: LOL. Apparently somebody's panties are in a wad. Even if I did work at Taco Bell, I would still be a better person than you, thief. How does it feel to know that people working at Taco Bell are more honest than you are?

Nope, no panties in a wad, it's just frustrating to know that the internet is a perfect place for morons like yourself to have the same influence over people who are genuinely trying to learn something as the people who know what they're talking about. I disagreed with many people in the electric car thread, but you're the only one that consistently babbled about things that were clearly not factual, and some of which were actually prohibited by fundamental laws of physics. To the people who don't know any better, what you say is just as valid as what anyone else says.

And then you come into this thread, obviously wanting to throw me under the bus, and put words into my mouth in doing so.

I'm just trying to figure out what you actually have to contribute to either of these threads, because so far I haven't seen anything.

quote Originally posted by SGS: And I would hope that no one bites their tongue just because it's Cliff's board. If Cliff is the type of guy that would ban someone because they had a different opinion than he did and they expressed it, then this board wouldn't be worth much.

No, he definatly would not do that, as he has shown numerous times in the past.

But I DO believe that some here let Cliff slide on some opinions that they hungerly jump on others for having.

(i'm starting to feel more like 84Bill everyday!)

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-12-2010).]

Poor thing, playing the innocent victim now.

I didn't put any words in yoor mouth. You self identified yourself as a theif. You self identified yourself as an engineer. Even a Taco Bell worker can tell that an engineer can afford $50 for a video game.

I only brought one thing from the other thread which is relevant to this thread. Sorry, but people who steal when they can just as easily buy the item are scum. It is not my fault you fit that mold.

quote Originally posted by SGS: Nope, no panties in a wad, it's just frustrating to know that the internet is a perfect place for morons like yourself to have the same influence over people who are genuinely trying to learn something as the people who know what they're talking about. I disagreed with many people in the electric car thread, but you're the only one that consistently babbled about things that were clearly not factual, and some of which were actually prohibited by fundamental laws of physics. To the people who don't know any better, what you say is just as valid as what anyone else says. And then you come into this thread, obviously wanting to throw me under the bus, and put words into my mouth in doing so. I'm just trying to figure out what you actually have to contribute to either of these threads, because so far I haven't seen anything.

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Sorry, but people who steal when they can just as easily buy the item are scum.

Wow, scum.
Really?

Or they are doing it, in part, for the thrill............

no need to D/L or pirate snow OSX.6
apple is happy to sell snow as a up grade DVD disk
everything you need is on the legal sale disk
sold on line or in a store for 29.99

BUT APPLE DOESNOT think thats ok

because

a they donot want their OSX on a nonapple built box

b they want you to only load the upgrade on a osX.5 box

c they donot want you to change OSX in anyway

BUT THEY SCREWED UP
because
all the OSX.6 stuff is on the disk
it works as a clean install even if apple doesnot want you to do that when they took you money for it
use a free D/L installer to hack the OSX.6 system and it will load and WORK on allmost any resent computer

so go to an apple store and get the disk
now who is the pirate
apple who wants this not to happen
so they can sell overpriced hardware
at about twice the cost of a = performance intel built box
but keeps selling the disks

quote Originally posted by maryjane: True, the thief no longer believes he is wrong, if he ever did--regardless of what the law says. His belief doesn't change the fact that he has broken the law.

I disagree, a thief knows he did wrong, he doesn't care.

When Adobe released Photoshop 4 in 1994 or so, my boss came back from a big show (I think it was the CES or something like that) with several copies of it. He gave two copies to me and I installed it on a computer I no longer use and my computer at work. My boss also brought back a copy of Premiere 6 in 1999 or 2000 from the same show and I installed it on my government computer. I used both pieces of software to produce video for the government. Since we have some folks here who know about these things--I obviously don't know anything--am I guilty of stealing PS4 for me and Premiere 6 for the government?

I know some stories about software piracy by higher ups in government that would either disgust you or curl your hair. When MS sells licenses, it is a license for some to steal.

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: When Adobe released Photoshop 4 in 1994 or so, my boss came back from a big show (I think it was the CES or something like that) with several copies of it. He gave two copies to me and I installed it on a computer I no longer use and my computer at work. My boss also brought back a copy of Premiere 6 in 1999 or 2000 from the same show and I installed it on my government computer. I used both pieces of software to produce video for the government. Since we have some folks here who know about these things--I obviously don't know anything--am I guilty of stealing PS4 for me and Premiere 6 for the government? I know some stories about software piracy by higher ups in government that would either disgust you or curl your hair. When MS sells licenses, it is a license for some to steal.

Depends on how you define 'copy'. I have got software disks from shows myself from booths at tradeshows and user groups. All legit for me to use as i please.

You may have ethics rules about accepting gifts due to being involved with the government, but that wouldn't be the same discussion.

EDIT: Pretty much at any Microsoft bash they throw disks at you.. Free gifts are always great, and legal.

[This message has been edited by User00013170 (edited 01-12-2010).]

quote Originally posted by SGS: Possibly. But I could right my wrongs and no longer steal. You'll always be an idiot.

So by your own admission, you could abide by the law, but you CHOOSE to steal.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So by your own admission, you could abide by the law, but you CHOOSE to steal.

Kinda like speeding.
Or any other law you break intentionally.
You could CHOOSE not to break the law, but you take a chance.

I guess the REAL question is at any given point in time is, "Is it worth it if I get caught?"
"Is speeding worth the chance of getting caught?"
Most times for most of us, the answer is yes.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So by your own admission, you could abide by the law, but you CHOOSE to steal.

Umm, do you really need anyone to answer that question? Who could possibly answer "no, I have no choice but to steal" and be taken seriously? Some other examples:

No, I had no choice but to speed.

No, I had no choice but to lie.

No, I had no choice to to write the hot check.

It seems that everyone who is bashing people who have pirated software in this thread have NEVER done anything wrong.

I'd submit that if you broke the speed limit today, you're not better than I am for downloading a movie. You broke the law, AND since you didn't get caught, you cost revenue to the municipality that could have caught you in the form of a citation. On top of that, you put those around you at risk.

Some people have mentioned speeding in this thread, but it was blown off as "no big deal". But when piracy is blown off as some as "no big deal", then people are hoping the FBI catch on and send us to prison.

quote Originally posted by SGS: Umm, do you really need anyone to answer that question? Who could possibly answer "no, I have no choice but to steal" and be taken seriously?

I also wonder who could say shoplifting is an "unfair trade practice." Not much you would say to justify your actions would surprise me.

'Oh, yeah, I steal, but not really cuz their stuff is really expensive and I've got plenty of money but the stuff isn't really worth it so even though it's not great and I could pay for it I steal it, but it's not like really stealing something like a car or a boat, it's more like stealing an idea, and the companies are evil anyway so by stealing from them, but not really stealing, I'm serving the greater good, and stuff.'

Right.

quote Originally posted by SGS: But if you had a legal copy and did this, it would then be an ILLEGAL copy. You would be violating Apple's EULA, breaking the law, and you would be costing Apple money. So in other words, you didn't pirate the OS, you would be pirating Apple's proprietary hardware. So after YOU throwing many of under the bus for piracy, you just said you might do something like this. Interesting.

Slap an Apple sticker that comes with everything Apple that you buy and it's suddenly, like magic, it's Apple hardware!

So, if someone buys a goldfish from Wal-Mart, breeds it, then gives me one of the fish-puppies, am I a thief?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: I also wonder who could say shoplifting is an "unfair trade practice." Not much you would say to justify your actions would surprise me. 'Oh, yeah, I steal, but not really cuz their stuff is really expensive and I've got plenty of money but the stuff isn't really worth it so even though it's not great and I could pay for it I steal it, but it's not like really stealing something like a car or a boat, it's more like stealing an idea, and the companies are evil anyway so by stealing from them, but not really stealing, I'm serving the greater good, and stuff.' Right.

The point is that "unfair trade practice" is largely defined by the perspective of which side of the transaction you're on. In ANY "unfair trade practice" I can assure you that the person benefiting the most didn't think it was unfair.

As I have said about 6,000 times in this thread, I'm not trying to justify my actions to ANYONE. I'm simply illustrating that there's more to the story than just MY actions.

There are "unfair trade practices" that you probably participate in all the time....you just didn't know they were unfair, and you didn't know what was going on.

I think many taxes levied by our government are unfair, but according to most of you, I should just pay up or pack my stuff and move. Because trying to change it would be wrong.

I think a business making a reasonable profit in a free market is great. But I think a business that maximizes profit by purposely limiting free market opportunities for consumers is unfair....and is paramount to theft. Many of you don't think that's theft, because I have the OPTION to spend my money elsewhere. And THAT is where the smoke and mirrors comes into play.

And every time I bring up a scenario to illustrate that, it mostly gets ignored. So you guys are having a good time while Boondawg and I try to address every comment, while you pick and choose which one of ours you can address.