quote Originally posted by williegoat: SGS, how far are you willing to take this principle? If each of us does what he believes is right, based on some perceived injustice, that is anarchy. That will eventually result in the total breakdown of society. We are civilized only because we agree to certain rules and understand that others have rights.

That's a very good point, and I agree with you. Part of what I have been trying to show, except that people won't always engage and answer my questions, is that companies selling products to consumers are often completely profit motivated, could care less if the consumer gets any value, and are aware that consumers have limited choices in many situations. That, in my opinion, is no less thievery than pirating software is. Simply ME not buying a company's product isn't going to hurt the company enough for them to increase their value to consumers as long as most people are sheep about it and blindly spending their money.

But it seems that no one else has caught on (or agrees) that companies who KNOW that they don't have to give value to consumers aren't just as bad as the people who steal their stuff. If we can understand the persective that many of the companies are out to bilk you out of your hard earned dollars, now some "tit for tat" on the part of the consumer seems justified.

That's where I was going with the Robin Hood reference.....although it does make me wanna change my location to Sherwood Forest....

Thank you. In an ideal situation, the free market would eliminate those who did not offer value. I understand that because of corruption and government intervention, that does not always happen. However, if we usurp our principals, we do not help in any way.
(and I know now that you understand that)

Yeah, and in many cases, we don't have a free market. When it comes to consumer computer operating systems, Microsoft basically has a monopoly. Apple has a little market share, and Linux is still a LONG way away from being prime time for average computer users.

I mentioned appliances earlier. Even though there are many brands, there are only a few companies actually making these things. The brands are simply rebadged products. One man's Chevy Cavalier is another man's Cadillac Cimmaron.

Lots of this sort of thing going on. Consumers are often being handed their hand in this poker match, and I don't have a problem with breaking a few rules to even the score. In a true free market I wouldn't have to do that; in a monopoly or oligopoly, I do.

That's why I brought up the scenario with the auto parts store earlier, which no one replied to. If those in control are going to steal from you, and you're always going to play by the rules, then you're probably going to lose. Principles are great, but if you're laying at the bottom of the pile, they're not always worth much.

If I get value from a company, I spend my money there. If I don't, they don't get any of my money, and sometimes I get a chance to recoup a little of what I was screwed out of. It may not be "right" but I'm ok with that....just as the company is ok with with screwing me, which also isn't right.

So, if someone were to ask you to share a file, you wouldn't have a whole lot of problem with it--even if you had agreed not to?

quote Originally posted by hookdonspeed: wow, poor boonie, this thread got turned into trash, .

Naw, It's cool, I am a big fan of conversations following their natural course of discussion.
Lord knows I have unintentually done it to other peoples threads!

Plus, I wasn't really sure of how my original post of "How To Roll Your Own Mac" would be recieved, to begin with.
I knew it was a little iffy, but I really found it just too interesting to pass up.

And I have allways found the topic at hand interesting.

I'm calling this one a win! (lord knows i've been in enough losers!)

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by SGS: But if Robin Hood was taking from the rich what rightfully belonged to the poor, he wouldn't be a thief. You said that yourself.

Your arguments get fuzzier and fuzzier.
I'm expecting you to bring up the "nobody really ever 'owns' anything. We're all just temporary tenants of this world and only use what is here while we're alive"

You can argue philosophy all you want. A judge would likely laugh at you.
And when judgement day rolls around, I'm sure the angles in Heaven will get a big kick out of your "shades of gray" ideas on right and wrong.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: So, if someone were to ask you to share a file, you wouldn't have a whole lot of problem with it--even if you had agreed not to?

That depends on the circumstances. I have already been asked to share files on this forum, and I declined.

So I'd say that in some circumstances, yes I would share, and others I would not.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And when judgement day rolls around, I'm sure the angles in Heaven will get a big kick out of your "shades of gray" ideas on right and wrong.

When that day comes, I am already so screwed on my "Black & White" transgresions, that the "Gray" ones are going to be little more then a joke.
Like stealing a car, then getting pinched on a pack of gum!

I'm hoping to plead the whole thing down to something lesser.
But i'm definatly going to cook for aleast some amount of time.

He can't just let me skate, just becouse I have done a few good things.
If he cuts me slack, then he's got to for everyone.
The whole system would fail.
Everyone would just do what they wanted.

There has got to be consequences.
Not just here & now, but forever after.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by SGS: According to the article posted above, more pirates WOULD be willing to pay for software IF it was of better quality.

I don't believe that argument at all. So software is good enough to steal but not to buy? I want Mac OSX on my computer but it is too crappy for me to pay for it? Then why are you stealing it in the first place?

I'm sure lots of people spend scores of hours playing games that they pirate because those games are so crappy.

I have been a PC gamer since the 80's. The crappiest game today would blow away anything that we played back then and adjusted for inflation I'll bet we paid the same price. Software quality has gone up dramatically over the years. The free software available today blows away anything available ten years ago. Anyone that uses quality as an excuse is spoiled and they have no idea how good they have it.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: When that day comes, I am already so screwed on my "Black & White" transgresions, that the "Gray" ones are going to be little more then a joke. Like stealing a car, then getting pinched on a pack of gum! I'm hoping to plead the whole thing down to something lesser. But i'm definatly going to cook for aleast some amount of time. He can't just let me skate, just becouse I have done a few good things. If he cuts me slack, then he's got to for everyone. The whole system would fail. Everyone would just do what they wanted. There has got to be consequences. Not just here & now, but forever after.

Maybe the entire purpose of human existence is to see if we can successfully self regulate.
We have free will, whether god given or simply randomly developed, we have the power to progress or to wipe ourselves out. In order to progress, we must cooperate with and respect one another. In order to destroy ourselves, we need only follow our self serving animal instincts.

Maybe, just maybe. We are doing a lot better than we were a thousand years ago.

Now I gotta go watch "The Simpsons"

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-10-2010).]

Bernie Madoff would be the 1st to tell ya that there's no better value than getting something for free at someone else's expense.

I try very hard to never do business with those who start off small--I might just be the next step up their ladder.

If I admitted on a public forum I've stolen tens of thousands of dollars of software I wouldn't put my name or address out there either.

Quit with the BS of someone might get to you, that's cowardice. I've posted with my real name and location for nearly a decade just here and have only had one issue, but that was dealt with and that person won't ever do it again. Posted the same way as a founder of AVSIG on Compuserve back in the early '80's. You hide because you don't want to get caught in a criminal act.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by SGS: What does it matter where I'm from?

You kids need to quit your bickering.

I plan on doing this to my (incoming) Dell mini 10v, although the process for the mini is much easier (although I'm sure issues will arise along the way, just like doing something to a Fiero. ) OS X Snow Leopard, Windows 7 and Ubuntu all on one little netbook should be quite intriguing.

[This message has been edited by Valkyrie (edited 01-11-2010).]

What many people are missing is that these non MAC PCs running a MAC OS is actually good for Apple. It will help get people familar with MAC and they may actually buy one. Microsoft has said in the past that leaked OSes and software actually help boost product excitement and increase sales. It is like drugs you get them hooked then take their money.


Sean

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: I don't believe that argument at all. So software is good enough to steal but not to buy?

Everything has its price. If it cost $40 to buy a single movie ticket would you go to the movies much? Probably not. How often would you go if it was $4? It's all about how much it's worth to you. Lots of people won't pay $60 for a new PC game, but they might be willing to pay $20.....the problem is that it's not available for $20. But it's all over the web for free, so that's what they do. And that follows with what I said earlier: the person who's not gonna pay $60 but pirates the game isn't costing the software developer money. Don't take my word for it, it's in the article that was posted.

quote I'm sure lots of people spend scores of hours playing games that they pirate because those games are so crappy.

Once again, you're looking at it black and white....and it's not.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: BS Justification, IMHO. If you can't afford or don't want to pay for the product you have no right to have it. Period. I'd really like my wife to have a new CTS to drive to work, but I won't pay for it, so I should just be able to go take one? I think not. I also don't want to hear about any justification because it's not that much money. Man asks a woman if she'll have sex with him for $1,000,000. She thinks about it and agrees. He then asks if she'll have sex with him for $10. She's insulted and says "Of course not, what do you think I am, a whore?" Man answers "We've already established that, now we're just negotiating price." At what price does it become a crime? The price of a new CTS, or the price of a pack of chewing gum? Answer.........BOTH are the same crime. John Stricker

Stop being such a freakin boyscout John. Anybody willing to go through all of this trouble to make this PC was never going to go out and purchase a Mac OS in the first place. This is more of an exercise in tech fun than an attempt to steal from some company.

The tech part as far as the hardware was fine and nothing would have been said if the part about pirating the software were not in the article.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: The tech part as far as the hardware was fine and nothing would have been said if the part about pirating the software were not in the article.

To fair, they only hinted at that.
And they did mention buying the OS.

And the bottom line is stealing is a personal choice.
No one can force it.

Thanks for the build thread, Boonie. I will look into it. My expertise(if I have any)is both analog and digital hardware and your thread brought me back to my first '286 computer I built many moons ago before WinAnything. (I HATE NT, btw)

quote Originally posted by maryjane: The tech part as far as the hardware was fine and nothing would have been said if the part about pirating the software were not in the article.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: To fair, they only hinted at that. And they did mention buying the OS.

It's against the EULA to install OS X on anything but a Mac. So you're breaking the "law" before you even pirate a copy of OS X. I imagine that's the context the article was written in.

[This message has been edited by IEatRice (edited 01-11-2010).]

Conn,

It's no secret you and I are diametrically opposed politically but this response from you not only shocks but disappoints me. Really. I thought better of you. I still do. I'll chalk this up to a temporary lapse of your normally good ethical judgment.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by connecticutFIERO: Stop being such a freakin boyscout John. Anybody willing to go through all of this trouble to make this PC was never going to go out and purchase a Mac OS in the first place. This is more of an exercise in tech fun than an attempt to steal from some company.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Yes, I remember your thread some months ago--where you stated in no uncertain terms that you were 100% against unlawful downloads. I also assumed that the text of this build was probably not yours originally. copied and pasted is what I figured.

He is using a pirated copy of Win7 from what I have read.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: He is using a pirated copy of Win7 from what I have read.

Really.
Since you have made such a libelous statement, you now must prove it.
Show me where you read that i am using a pirated copy of Windows 7.

This should be good, considering I am not now, nor have I yet even used Windows 7, either pirated or otherwise.

P.S. I never said I was 100% against unlawfull downloads.
I said it was stealing.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-11-2010).]

Hell, even *I* am not using a pirated copy of Windows 7!!!

quote Originally posted by starlightcoupe: Thanks for the build thread, Boonie. I will look into it. My expertise(if I have any)is both analog and digital hardware and your thread brought me back to my first '286 computer I built many moons ago before WinAnything. (I HATE NT, btw)

I remember moving to the 'pc' world when i got a 286 so i could run OS/2. It was also a home built ( tho i don't consider sticking some boards in a box as building, its more like 'assembling'.. )

I hated the Intel architecture, ( still do ) but i did see that it was the future and would be left behind if i didn't keep up.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Really. Since you have made such a libelous statement, you now must prove it. Show me where you read that i am using a pirated copy of Windows 7. This should be good, considering I am not now, nor have I yet even used Windows 7, either pirated or otherwise. P.S. I never said I was 100% against unlawfull downloads. I said it was stealing.

Are you putting me on? I don't even think my statement can be considered liabless.

Topic: With Windows 7, Which Would Give Me A Bigger Boost In Gaming?
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/070664.html

Topic: Boondawg Breaks Character...............Should I Upgrade My Computer?
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/070766.html

Topic: I Want A Free Copy Of Widows 7, And I Ain't Taking Hell No For An Answer!
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/070579.html

Just so you don't edit anything...

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Are you putting me on? I don't even think my statement can be considered liabless. Topic: With Windows 7, Which Would Give Me A Bigger Boost In Gaming? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/070664.html Topic: Boondawg Breaks Character...............Should I Upgrade My Computer? https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/070766.html Topic: I Want A Free Copy Of Widows 7, And I Ain't Taking Hell No For An Answer! https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/070579.html Just so you don't edit anything...

Where did you read anywhere in there that I am using a pirated copy of Windows 7?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Where does it say anywhere in there that I am using a pirated copy of Windows 7?

So you are comfortable with the fact that I am saying you are a liar?

Also, I believe I read a post of yours were you thanked someone for sending some software. Now I guess I would be assuming/inferring it was Win7, given the thread you started about wanting a free copy. Doesn't really matter at this point, I have already damaged your credability. I can probably go through and find the post I am refferring to and ask the other person involved. Whether they tell me it was in fact Win7 or not that they sent you is moot at this point. I stated something, you asked me to prove otherwise and I did. Going forward you can lie about anything you want, I can't expect you to be honest.

quote Originally posted by SGS: Once again, you're looking at it black and white....and it's not.

Actually, theft if fblack and white. Either you steal or you don't steal. This is not stealing bread to feed your family. This is being a cheap skate and not paying for an OS or a game that you play.

I have had things stolen from my yard. These are cheap things such as sprinklers. What does it say about the person who would act in an unethical way over a $3 lawn sprinkler? What does it say about the person that would do so for a $50 video game. How much are your ethics worth if you turn yourself into a theif so cheaply?

No matter what the price point, there will always be someone that will try to steal it. People get caught shoplifting bubble gum every day.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: So you are comfortable with the fact that I am saying you are a liar?

WTF are you talking about.
I have never ran Windows 7.
Peroid.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Also, I believe I read a post of yours were you thanked someone for sending some software.

People send me software.
That don't make it stolen.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Now I guess I would be assuming/inferring it was Win7,

Actually, you are not assuming/inferring that I recieved or own a pirated copy of windows 7, you stated that you read that I was USING a pirated copy of Windows 7.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: given the thread you started about wanting a free copy.

How does a free copy automaticly turn into stolen?
Where does wanting turn into getting?
Where does getting turn into using?

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Whether they tell me it was in fact Win7 or not that they sent you is moot at this point.

Yes, It Is moot, becouse you said you read I was USING a pirated copy of Windows 7.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: I stated something, you asked me to prove otherwise and I did.

And we are right back to you said you read that Im using a pirated copy of Windows 7, and I tell you that I am not now, or have I ever used a copy of Windows 7, pirated or otherwise.
So you have proven nothing, despite your claim that you have.

quote Originally posted by ls3mach: Going forward you can lie about anything you want, I can't expect you to be honest.

No really, is there something wrong with you?

The simplest thing for you to have done would have been to ask me if I would ever use a pirated copy of Windows 7.
I would have answered yes.

But I have not used Windows 7 yet, in any form.
Which means you have falsely accused me.

I will, however, accept an apology, when you can admit that you jumped to conclusions and you were wrong.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-11-2010).]

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: Really? Show me where it says I am using a pirated copy of Windows 7.

Sorry but your evasiveness incriminates you. This is not a court of law. Unless you do something like post a picture with your holding a Win 7 box then it sure looks like you pirated it.

Or even simpler--explain that you do not you have--have never had--or recieved--or asked for a copy of Win7 that you didn't pay Microsoft for?

When did the circus come to town?

I didn't see any trucks.....

Just FYI.....I only paid $30 for my LEGAL copies on Win7. Does that mean they are at least partially stolen since that's not the retail cost and everyone knows that?

I also, I have no box and no media for Win7. So does that mean I actually pirated it?

quote Originally posted by SGS: When did the circus come to town? I didn't see any trucks..... Just FYI.....I only paid $30 for my LEGAL copies on Win7. Does that mean they are at least partially stolen since that's not the retail cost and everyone knows that? I also, I have no box and no media for Win7. So does that mean I actually pirated it?

It just means that if MS ever cracks down on it you will never be able to update your OS again.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Window-...?hash=item2304b92e60

That guy is not longer selling keys and his relisting was removed. The other listings are for accounts that have less than 10 ratings. I guess eBay cracked down on the first guy.

quote Originally posted by SGS: When did the circus come to town? I didn't see any trucks..... Just FYI.....I only paid $30 for my LEGAL copies on Win7. Does that mean they are at least partially stolen since that's not the retail cost and everyone knows that? I also, I have no box and no media for Win7. So does that mean I actually pirated it?

Dunno--did you ask/verify where they came from and why they were so cheap?

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: Sorry but your evasiveness incriminates you.

I have never used Windows 7.
Period.
How is that evasive, and how does that incriminate me?

quote Originally posted by Doug85GT: This is not a court of law. Unless you do something like post a picture with your holding a Win 7 box then it sure looks like you pirated it.

Looks can be decieving.
And in this case Is.

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-12-2010).]