Funny thought: You are denied access into heaven becouse you pirated Windows 98se two weeks before you died.
Stealing is stealing.
DOH!

Like I said, to me, it's about value. I just think that companies have found more and more ways to give consumers less and less value for their money.

The fact that you can pay $1500 for a TV and the warranty is only a year is ridiculous. Sure, they'll sell you the extended warranty, for $400. Ridiculous.

Appliances, same gig. 40 years ago, you could buy a refrigerator that would last 25 years. Remember that? People used to replace them because the colors went out of style, not because they stopped working! Dad took the avocado green or harvest gold fridge and put it into the garage to hold beer when mom wanted a new one because the old one was ugly. I bought a $1200 Maytag fridge that lasted 7 years. When the guys from Lowe's came to deliver the new one I had bought to replace it when it died, I mentioned that I was pissed that it only lasted 7 years. The delivery guys said that was VERY common. That's all they last anymore.

So they cheapen the construction by a LOT, and lower the price a little, and consumers are none the wiser. I'm pretty sure that if they could build a fridge in 1970 that would last for 20+ years, they could do it today. But that's not good for business...because a consumer that buys a fridge that lasts 30 years isn't going to buy a new one for 30 years.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Why can't I sue you? You're certainly free to sue microsoft, if you want. Or Adobe. Or whoever. There is no prohibition on that. What you cannot do is steal their products and then strut around like you're doing nothing wrong. You are. John Stricker PS: It's always interesting to note that the majority of people that take your side of the argument are anonymous. Often no locations. No names. I wonder why that is? I sign every post. I have my town and state listed. I have nothing to hide from or be ashamed of. Apparently that's not always the case in these discussions.

I wanna play .

So if we go with the Black and White argument We would be in trouble for going even 1/16th of a mile over the speed limit. Everyone is a criminal, no gray area.

I downloaded a copy of a game the other day that I purchased years ago. The disk finally broke, it was chipped for a while, and when it finally went it was actually coming out of the disk drive. I was lucky.

So I purchased the game, I still have the broken disk in the original case (I like the game) I then downloaded a pirated copy instead of buying another copy from __________ (I am not posting everything). (BTW I looked and the game is not being sold, hasn't been for a few years.)

Now legally I own the game, I have an exact copy of the game that has a broken disk, I loaded nothing new into my computer I just have to have a physical disk in the drive to play the game (that I have played since I had Windows 98).

HOWEVER

I did steal the game according to the laws set down now. If I had the foresight to copy the disk before it broke I would be breaking the law there as well. Heck, I was breaking the law when I re-installed the game on Windows XP after having it on my 98 machine.

How was I wrong on this? I really see nothing wrong with what I did, I'm sure the other guys lawyer would see it differently, that's why I keep the original, just in case a jury needs to see it.

I love playing devils advocate.

Brad

So Windows 95 is still protected, right?
If you pirated it tomorrow, dispite it being completely outdated and no longer in use or curculation, it is still stealing, right?

[This message has been edited by Boondawg (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by SGS: I'm not downplaying anything. But if you think that me stealing a copy of Windows is the same offense as me stealing the car from your driveway, then that's your opinion, and you're certainly entitled to it.

So, I'll ask again - how illegal is it? If it's not as bad as stealing a car, is it as bad as stealing a paper clip from work? Somewhere in the middle?
Tell me just what level of "wrong" and "illegal" you believe piracy is.

quote Originally posted by Boondawg: So Windows 95 is still protected, right? If you pirated it tomorrow, dispite it being completely outdated and no longer in use or curculation, it is still stealing, right?

Yes, it is still protected, as is Windows 1.01, and (my first) Windows 3.1

Oooooh, Boonie, you are going to burn.

Brad

Fascinating!
Who would have thought a thread about building a budget computer would turn into such a firestorm?
Good job Boondawg

quote Originally posted by Formula88: So, I'll ask again - how illegal is it? If it's not as bad as stealing a car, is it as bad as stealing a paper clip from work? Somewhere in the middle? Tell me just what level of "wrong" and "illegal" you believe piracy is.

Never really thought about "how" wrong it is I guess. I'd honestly put it as less wrong than stealing a paperclip from work. Because if I couldn't steal one from work, I WOULD have gone out and bought my own paperclips. And, my employer IS out of that paperclip (or more realistically, the money it took to purchase it).

But the $8,000 piece of software on my computer right now? I can assure you that if I didn't have a free copy, I would NOT have purchased one. The software company is NOT out one copy that they just can't find, and they're not out $8,000. What makes software, music, and movies different than TVs, cars, and paper clips is that that can be easily and infinitely replicated. Some people who have pirated stuff would have made actual purchases, others who have pirated stuff would not. So the damamge to the software company isn't nearly is big is the level of piracy would make it seem.

quote Originally posted by SGS: Like I said, to me, it's about value. I just think that companies have found more and more ways to give consumers less and less value for their money. The fact that you can pay $1500 for a TV and the warranty is only a year is ridiculous. Sure, they'll sell you the extended warranty, for $400. Ridiculous. Appliances, same gig. 40 years ago, you could buy a refrigerator that would last 25 years. Remember that? People used to replace them because the colors went out of style, not because they stopped working! Dad took the avocado green or harvest gold fridge and put it into the garage to hold beer when mom wanted a new one because the old one was ugly. I bought a $1200 Maytag fridge that lasted 7 years. When the guys from Lowe's came to deliver the new one I had bought to replace it when it died, I mentioned that I was pissed that it only lasted 7 years. The delivery guys said that was VERY common. That's all they last anymore. So they cheapen the construction by a LOT, and lower the price a little, and consumers are none the wiser. I'm pretty sure that if they could build a fridge in 1970 that would last for 20+ years, they could do it today. But that's not good for business...because a consumer that buys a fridge that lasts 30 years isn't going to buy a new one for 30 years.

So part of your argument is that because you aren't happy with what you bought, you should be able to steal to make up for it?

Were you forced to buy the item in question? Do you not research things before you buy, in order to ensure you're getting a good deal?

quote Originally posted by GT86: So part of your argument is that because you aren't happy with what you bought, you should be able to steal to make up for it? Were you forced to buy the item in question? Do you not research things before you buy, in order to ensure you're getting a good deal?

My argument is that I demand value for the things I purchase. I'm definitely willing to pay for value. I always research, but in today's world, that still may not get you very far. I think a refrigerator should last more than 7 years. I know they ca...they used to be built that way! I think a $1500 TV should have a warranty of more than a year. Hell, it's gonna be obsolete in 4 or 5 years, so it really doesn't have to last that long. It's an electronic device that has no moving parts.

The issue is that the market seems to settle into these "minimums" that the majority of brain dead consumers are ok with. If Maytag cheapens the components in its refrigerators, they can charge a lower price, and more consumers buy their product because they think it's a better deal. Then their competition follows suit, ad pretty soon, you can only expect a fridge to last 7 years instead of 20...for a small savings in the price. And the whole time Maytag keeps running ads with the repair man bored to death because their appliances are so reliable.

So I guess the bottom line is, if you won't give me adequate value for my money, if I have the opportunity, I'll even the score.

ideally everything is absolute. in life there are grey areas.

"thou shalt not kill"

unless...

will you kill to defend your "way of life"?
will you kill to defend your country?
will you kill to defend your neighbors?
will you kill to defend your family?
will you kill to defend yourself?
your home?
your car?
your stereo?
because you think someone was rude?
because you just dont like someone?

thou shalt not kill. simple, right?

we like to think that moral certainty is nice, safe ground, but it isn't. every case has its context. there are times when you must (literally and figuratively) shoot first and ask questions later, but the questions are worth asking, and usually, worth asking first.

quote Originally posted by lurker: ideally everything is absolute. in life there are grey areas. "thou shalt not kill" unless... will you kill to defend your "way of life"? will you kill to defend your country? will you kill to defend your neighbors? will you kill to defend your family? will you kill to defend yourself? your home? your car? your stereo? because you think someone was rude? because you just dont like someone? thou shalt not kill. simple, right? we like to think that moral certainty is nice, safe ground, but it isn't. every case has its context. there are times when you must (literally and figuratively) shoot first and ask questions later, but the questions are worth asking, and usually, worth asking first.

And that's really the point I have been making this entire time. There's context, circumstances, and gray area......in pretty much everything.

quote Originally posted by lurker: ideally everything is absolute. in life there are grey areas. "thou shalt not kill" unless... will you kill to defend your "way of life"? will you kill to defend your country? will you kill to defend your neighbors? will you kill to defend your family? will you kill to defend yourself? your home? your car? your stereo? because you think someone was rude? because you just dont like someone? thou shalt not kill. simple, right? we like to think that moral certainty is nice, safe ground, but it isn't. every case has its context. there are times when you must (literally and figuratively) shoot first and ask questions later, but the questions are worth asking, and usually, worth asking first.

Many interpret the line to read “thou shalt not commit murder”; acknowledging that there is such a thing as justifiable homicide.
The more pertinent example from the commandments would be “thou shalt not steal”.
The question is often asked,”Is it OK to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family?”.

As for the thread.... Here is another way to sample "forbidden fruit"

The EFI-X dongle.... when used it "tells" Mac OS X you have a Mac. (without changing the kernel)

Factory OS X goodness, just the way Mac intended, (But on PC hardware)

How you abscon... I mean purchase OS X snow leopard is up to you and your conscience.

I think how I justify some of this in my own mind is that these companies not making an effort to give their customers reasonable value - especially knowing they have no other reasonable choices - is just as much theft as something like piracy is.

Scenario:

A small town has an auto parts store move in...one of the large chains. Previously, there were only a couple of "mom and pop" type parts store operations in the town. The big chain, using its buying power, drops the bottom out of its pricing with the intent of running the existing mom and pop stores out of business. Within 6 months, this is exactly what has happened, and the parts chain now raises its prices back to a much higher level.

Is that theft on the part of the auto parts chain?

quote Originally posted by williegoat: Many interpret the line to read “thou shalt not commit murder”;

interpret. now there's a grey area. every text i've ever read, from cecil b demille to the torah and bible, clearly says "kill".

quote Originally posted by williegoat: The question is often asked,”Is it OK to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family?”.

this is more appropriate to the topic of the thread.

[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by williegoat: Many interpret the line to read “thou shalt not commit murder”; acknowledging that there is such a thing as justifiable homicide. The more pertinent example from the commandments would be “thou shalt not steal”. The question is often asked,”Is it OK to steal a loaf of bread to feed your family?”.

Since you touched on religous aspects.

"Thou shalt not kill" Thou shalt not steal" are indeed black and white. You are commanded not to break these commandments. If you do, you are to be judged for these transgressions--REGARDLESS of the reason or justification you had when you violated them. We may believe we are justified, but He who judges us may well feel differently. There are no exceptions. Not for combat or anywhere else--we will all be judged.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Since you touched on religous aspects. "Thou shalt not kill" Thou shalt not steal" are indeed black and white. You are commanded not to break these commandments. If you do, you are to be judged for these transgressions--REGARDLESS of the reason or justification you had when you violated them. We may believe we are justified, but He who judges us may well feel differently.

Ok, so if someone steals from me, then am I breaking this commandment by stealing my item back from them if I can locate it?

I apologize, I did not mean to interject any religious justification for or against any behavior.
I was simply responding to Lurker's reference, the translation of which is a hotly debated topic.

However, theft and murder are wrong, regardless of what belief system you follow.

[This message has been edited by williegoat (edited 01-10-2010).]

so uhm, how bout those ravens today? wow, poor boonie, this thread got turned into trash, why wasnt another thread started rather then turn one about hardware into craptalk? oohhh thats right, most people here more then likely just made the choice to ***** for the sake of bitching, not that they honestly give a damn.

Was it ever legally or ethically theirs?

Where are you from?

[This message has been edited by slinger (edited 01-10-2010).]

quote Originally posted by SGS: Ok, so if someone steals from me, then am I breaking this commandment by stealing my item back from them if I can locate it?

In that case, you are not stealing. You are simply recovering that which is rightfully yours.

quote Originally posted by williegoat: In that case, you are not stealing. You are simply recovering that which is rightfully yours.

Ok, so does that make Robin Hood a hero or a thief? He stole from the rich and gave to the poor, but the poor were exploited by the rich and that's how they gained their wealth.

And yes, it's a fictitious story, but it certainly has some parallels with our society.

In my opinion, Robin Hood was a thief and a borderline Marxist.

quote Originally posted by williegoat: In my opinion, Robin Hood was a thief and a borderline Marxist.

But if Robin Hood was taking from the rich what rightfully belonged to the poor, he wouldn't be a thief. You said that yourself.

quote Originally posted by twofatguys: I wanna play . I downloaded a copy of a game the other day that I purchased years ago. ... I did steal the game according to the laws set down now. If I had the foresight to copy the disk before it broke I would be breaking the law there as well.

Nope. Making a copy of software for backup purposes is part of your 'Fair Use' rights.

As to the piracy question, here's an interesting read for you, from a developer who asked people who pirate his games "Why?":
http://www.positech.co.uk/talkingtopirates.html
As a software developer myself, let me tell you the thought that someone will just take my software once it's done is real motivating after coding for 4 hours each night.

quote Originally posted by kwagner: Nope. Making a copy of software for backup purposes is part of your 'Fair Use' rights. As to the piracy question, here's an interesting read for you, from a developer who asked people who pirate his games "Why?": http://www.positech.co.uk/talkingtopirates.html As a software developer myself, let me tell you the thought that someone will just take my software once it's done is real motivating after coding for 4 hours each night.

That's an interesting read, and a lot of the results bring up much of what I have been saying: VALUE.

I rarely go to the movies anymore because so many movies just SUCK these days, and it's not like if you don't like it the theater will give you your money back. I don't see value in it. And like I said, I have pirated movies that I was glad I didn't even pay $1 to rent. The waste of my time was bad enough.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Was it ever legally or ethically theirs? Where are you from?

When I was younger I used to steal software. A friend would buy it then make 10 copies and hand it out. I didn't think anything of it.

Well, I'm older and hopefully wiser now. All of the software that I have is paid for or legally downloaded, ie freeware. It takes a lot of work to create software. It is only fair to pay the people who do it for their labor unless they choose not to be paid such as with freeware or open source.

By stealing software, in the long run you end up hurting the whole community. As revenue goes down, software makers make less software. PC games have been slowly declining over the years specifically because of pirating. If everyone paid for their software we would see a whole lot more and better quality software.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Where are you from?

quote Originally posted by SGS: But if Robin Hood was taking from the rich what rightfully belonged to the poor, he wouldn't be a thief. You said that yourself.

I'm thinking maybe Sherwood Forest?

What does it matter where I'm from?

quote Originally posted by SGS: What does it matter where I'm from?

Just curious. A new member and all ---------they usually tell us a bit about themselves.

SGS, how far are you willing to take this principle?
If each of us does what he believes is right, based on some perceived injustice, that is anarchy.
That will eventually result in the total breakdown of society. We are civilized only because we agree to certain rules and understand that others have rights.

I don't share a lot of personal info online. Too much risk. Information is too easily obtained. I share a little personal info, and then the next thing you know, someone on the forum who disagrees with me about piracy leaves a flaming bag of poop on my front porch.



I say that in jest, but sometimes stuff like that can happen. I'll give you an example. I visited a forum for awhile. It turns out that the admin/founder of the forum was a real ass. He was also a little too loose lipped about his personal details, so in TWO MINUTES I had found his address and was looking at his house on Google. Saw the cars he drove and the whole smash. Had I been motivated enough to teach him a lesson, it would have been VERY easy to do so.

You just never know these days.

But a little about me. I don't own any Fieros. Never have. Almost bought one a few months ago, but I didn't, and I'm kicking myself for it. I was drawn to this forum in researching another project, and I thought I could contribute to some of the technical discussions, so I registered. I'm just a car guy, plain and simple.

And I love a good debate!