Step 1) The bailout will not happen Step 2) The big 3 will declare Bankruptcy Step 3) The Arbitor will re-write the rule book on the UAW and fire the entire management staff. Step 4) The current line of crap cars will be completely wiped-out and new, better, more efficient cars with international appeal will be built and sold around the world. Step 5) The Arbitor will TELL Jenny Granholm what taxes will be paid and she will take it and like it. Step 6) Mitt Romney will be made Car Czar and turn these businesses into profit centers again.
I'm so emotional right now.[sniffsniff=2] I think I'm goin to cry. [/sniffsniff]
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03:45 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37877 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Why is GM profitable overseas and not here in the USA ? What is the only thing different ? The UAW ? Why are foreign car manufacturers able to be profitable here, against the home team ? What is the only thing different ? The UAW ?
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03:54 PM
Nov 21st, 2008
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Me--and 90% of the folks replying? C'mon Steve--think about it. From day 1 you have held these beliefs. I'm all for being tenacious regarding something I believe in, but when a ton of people start showing me where the error of my ways is, I begin to open my eyes and think "Hey Don--you may be wrong on this one".
The whole world at one time said the world was flat and laughed a Columbus when he said it wasn’t.
Just because the world thinks one thing doesn’t always make it right.
quote
Originally posted by aceman: And now you know why the CEO wants millions of dollars in salary! YOU CAN'T PAY SOME PEOPLE ENOUGH TO PUT UP WITH THAT KIND OF BULLSHIT!
Well if the company had no union then the CEO would have to deal with all those people Ace.
In a union shop,
He does not have to.
So I guess the CEO is worth crap then Ace.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
The whole world at one time said the world was flat and laughed a Columbus when he said it wasn’t.
Just because the world thinks one thing doesn’t always make it right.
Steve
Actually, they believed in mermaids, sea serpents, and that they would fall off the edge of the world if they sailed too far. That was pre-1500s Steve. Unless something happened while I was away today, this is 2008, and we are very much better informed (most of us anyway). Do you not even find it odd that you are in such a minority? That so few in congress are eager to bail out the big 3 --especially considering there is a liberal majority? Would you like another straw to grasp at?
Here it is and it is your best hope of preserving your precious union. Only one of the Big 3 fails. That's the best scenario--just get one of them out of the way. Doesn't really matter which one, but it will probably be GM**, since they have the biggest debt and the biggest cost. With only 2 left, that $25 billion "green car" welfare check only has to be split 2 ways. If it is GM that bites the big one 1st, then the other 2 won't have to come back before congress for more $ till about June-July '09. If GM doesn't fold it's cards, then all 3 will be back begging before April '09, because Ford has enough cash to get thru Dec '09 as is. Chrysler is privately owned, and the owner has deep enough pockets to get thru till July '09, unless Cerbus Holding just gets tired of losing money before then. $25 billion ain't enough. $50 billion isn't enough. $100 billion total for all 3 won't even cut it. GM's debt alone is over $250 billion.
Congress, was absolutely livid that none of the Big 3 had any real plans for improving their lot, & has instructed all 3--including UAW, to return before congress in Dec 08, with viable restructuring plans. It also has leaked out, that those plans are to also include tentative plans for restructuring under Ch 11 banckruptcy. Congress sees the same thing most of the rest of us do--that the only way to easily restructure, is under Ch 11 protection. Ch11 puts a firewall up between the corporation and the creditors, nullifies (mostly) the labor contracts, puts congress on notice that Treasury will probably have to assume the pension plan responsiblilities & back any of the public's warranty issues, and most important of all, buys them time.
**Keep in mind Steve, that I own 5 GM vehicles, including a 2008 Chevy truck, so it's not that I don't like GM. I do, but from a business standpoint, they suck. They just suck--everything about them---top to bottom. They are just too big--too heavy, too cost burdened, too debt ridden, too dumb, and their sales just won't support their weight anymore. If they don't cut down to the bare bone, they are done for----all the money in the world can't help them other than postponing the inevitable.
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08:31 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41479 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
The UAW is negotiating the possible elimination of its controversial jobs bank and is considering other concessions to help Detroit's automakers win low-cost loans from Congress, people familiar with negotiations said late Thursday.
Union officers from several locals said they did not know if the concession had been made but expected the jobs bank to be ended as part of a package of shared sacrifice when the automakers and UAW President Ron Gettelfinger return to Congress early next month. The jobs bank pays laid-off workers, sometimes for years.
The disclosure came after Congress kicked back the cash-starved U.S. automakers' urgent pitch for a $25-billion rescue Thursday, saying executives failed to convince lawmakers and the public that the industry knew how to fix itself.
Democratic leaders demanded that automakers submit plans by Dec. 2 for how the loans might be used to transform them into viable companies, promising to bring Congress back into session Dec. 8 if the plans measure up -- a dangerously short time frame for two automakers that may run low on operating cash before paying bills in January.
About time. Like I said previously--when gettelfinger held his press conference, it seemed more like he was addressing his union instead of the public. I'm guessing someone in congress read him the riot act earlier in the day, and he was trying to put a good face on it for his union's sake. Job Banks and the CEO's private plane trip both pee poor public relations.
And to put an end to those who keep saying there are hundreds of thousands of autoworkers in those job banks.
How about the real number. “ The United Auto Workers said it has cut the jobs bank and placed time limits on it in new contracts signed with the companies last year. Still, more than 3,500 workers are getting paid for not working “
A lot less than what you union haters have been saying, though it will likely increase.
The UAW has all along taken cuts in benefits, yet non believe it, non think because you have no college degree you are worth anything other than what you feel they are worth.
Even though non of those who think that have ever worked an auto assembly line.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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09:29 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Actually, they believed in mermaids, sea serpents, and that they would fall off the edge of the world if they sailed too far. That was pre-1500s Steve. Unless something happened while I was away today, this is 2008, and we are very much better informed (most of us anyway). Do you not even find it odd that you are in such a minority? That so few in congress are eager to bail out the big 3 --especially considering there is a liberal majority? Would you like another straw to grasp at?
There are many other examples even today of people who think against the majority and are thought of as nuts.
But have made millions, built empires, created things that others thought was not possible.
That was just the first one that came to mind.
Steve
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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09:37 AM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
How about the real number. “ The United Auto Workers said it has cut the jobs bank and placed time limits on it in new contracts signed with the companies last year. Still, more than 3,500 workers are getting paid for not working “
Paying ONE able bodied person to sit in a job bank is ONE TOO MANY.
There are many other examples even today of people who think against the majority and are thought of as nuts.
But have made millions, built empires, created things that others thought was not possible.
That was just the first one that came to mind.
Steve
The 1st one that came to my mind, as I read that, was UAW. They've certainly made millions--created their own little empire--and the majority of Americans never thought in a million years, that one entity could ever become so powerful they could drag down 3 foundation American corporations as much as they have.
And to put an end to those who keep saying there are hundreds of thousands of autoworkers in those job banks.
How about the real number. “ The United Auto Workers said it has cut the jobs bank and placed time limits on it in new contracts signed with the companies last year. Still, more than 3,500 workers are getting paid for not working “
A lot less than what you union haters have been saying, though it will likely increase.
The UAW has all along taken cuts in benefits, yet non believe it, non think because you have no college degree you are worth anything other than what you feel they are worth.
Even though non of those who think that have ever worked an auto assembly line.
Steve
I've never flown in space either Steve, but I have a very good understanding of what it takes to do so. I've never done a lot of things, but I have a pretty good understanding of most of those too--and of those I do not have a good understanding of--it wouldn't take long to acquire that understanding. You seem hung up of the belief that "If you haven't actually done it--you can't understand it."
There are lots of things you have never done as well Steve, but you probably have a very good understanding of most of them--enough to form a very very accurate understanding & opinion regarding them, yet you don't afford the rest of the world the same attribute when it comes to this particular issue. There is only one thing preventing you from doing this Steve--it's your bias.
Remeber I implored you to have an open mind? I am very fond of ExxonMobil. They are a very efficient company, extremly profitable, but I know quite well that they have made huge mistakes in some of their endeavors, and have lots of room for improvement. They have the expertise and the money to really develop alternative fuels, but have declined to do so. They really need to change that policy. The same holds true for My Beloved Marine Corps. They are no where near perfect and even they admit it, as well as their most ardent supporters.
You, otoh, are so biased, you can't see the forest for the picket signs.
BTW, the job banks # decrease certainly wasn't by UAW's choice was it? They fought that decrease pretty hard--and still are.
General Motors and the United Auto Workers (UAW) have been meeting for weeks now and, according to a General Motors employee, will continue to meet with the UAW as long as they are making progress. The meetings are meant to open up the 2003 contract and renegotiate the health care benefits and pension costs that are pushing the company further into the red.
There is a little talked about contractual agreement that the UAW has with the Big 3 - General Motors, Ford Motor Corporation and Daimler Chrysler - and some auto suppliers, mainly Visteon and Delphi. The agreement is known as Job opportunity Bank Security System (JOBS) or "job banks", or Guaranteed Employment Numbers (GEN). It’s a job security program that was first negotiated in 1987, and was designed to give employees who might otherwise be laid off job security. General Motors won’t talk about it at all. According to Stefan Weinmann, spokesperson for General Motors, "We’re not discussing details of jobs banks for competitive reasons". When asked why they would discuss health benefits and pension costs openly, Weinmann said, "That is public information that can be found in our financial statements, job banks isn’t." According to another source, "this is not the hill General Motors is going to die on in the upcoming negotiations. They are looking for concessions on health care and pensions. In each negotiating period, certain concessions are focused on." In 2003 there was just pattern bargaining, no one company was focused on and a blanket agreement was made by all.
According to a document sent to www.carlist.com, the basic guarantee from the 1987 agreement is that no eligible employee will be laid off over the term of the agreement, except for the following reasons:
Reduced customer demand, a maximum of 42 weeks over the life of the agreement (commonly known as loss of marketshare) Acts of God or other conditions beyond the control of management Conclusion of an assignment known in advance to be temporary Plant rearrangement or model changeover
Eligible employees cannot be laid off because of:
Introduction of new technology (such as robots) Sourcing decisions Company-implemented efficiency actions
After existing seniority rights, eligible affected employees are placed in "Protected Employee" status where they receive full wages and benefits. While in protected status, employees may be assigned to:
Training programs or to replace other employees who are in training Certain non-traditional jobs Openings at other Ford locations (they only have to accept them if the job is within 100 miles of their home, otherwise they can stay in job banks) Other assignments consistent with the intent of the program.
According to Sean McAlinden, Chief Economist and Vice President, Research for Center for Automotive Research, and ex-UAW employee, "the UAW was trying to prevent outsourcing. They believe that profit is something you negotiate - something that is shared. the job banks part of the contract is about 100 pages of an over 500 page contract. In 1987 there was $2 Billion guaranteed for the project, by 1990 it was fully funded. It was thought that Lloyd Reuss was fired because of the spending on the job banks. People are protected, but not the jobs. When a person retires their job is eliminated. Job banks don’t protect the UAW. The UAW is down by 57 percent. Back in 1985 General Motors had 464,000 union members, at that time they were as big as the U.S. Army. At the end 2004 General Motors UAW members were down to 111,000 members; a 77 percent decrease in membership."
Currently, UAW membership is 710,000, down from about 1.5 million in its heyday. As of March 2005 General Motors had decreased its union worker membership to 109,000.
My sister is a union member in a telecommunications business. She will retire in four years with full health care benefits, with no premium, and a pension that is commensurate with her full salary. If she doesn’t get fired. With 24 years under her belt, she still worries that she could be fired if there is an economic downturn. She would lose the benefits she had worked most her adult life to achieve and would go on unemployment for 48 weeks and then she would need to find another job at the age of 51 that would let her live her life as she knows it now. The company would be able to reduce the variable cost of her salary and benefits down to reflect her no longer working at their company.
Not so, for automotive workers in the UAW and other auto manufacturer unions. There are upwards of 10,000 people who are not working but collecting a salary and benefits and some are still accruing seniority. It was best said by John Novak, Morningstar analyst, in a Chicago Tribune article on June 19, 2005, "Essentially, what they are doing is making labor, which in most industries is a variable cost, into a fixed cost. In most businesses, when demand declines, you can downsize your workforce and your costs also shrink."
According to McAlinden, there are three types of layoffs;
temporary layoffs - you know your return date. This might happen if there is a temporary shutdown in a plant. Indefinite layoff - this is supplemented by unemployment benefits. You get 48 weeks of on unemployment benefits and a supplemental from your company to equal 100 percent of your salary. Job banks - After 48 weeks you are reemployed by General Motors (or other group) at which time you receive 95 percent of your salary. You don’t get seniority, but you do continue to receive health benefits.
Lindsey Williams, Corporate Affairs for Delphi, a Tier One Supplier that was spun off from General Motors, for automotive manufacturers, explains the Job Banks dilemma, "When the current job security language was negotiated between the UAW, GM and Delphi’s negotiations team, the competitive landscape was very different. The landscape has changed dramatically and we must re-evaluate any and everything that adversely impacts the bottom line and hinders the company’s ability to be competitive in a global marketplace.
Employees assigned to the JOBS bank report to work, however, may not work on productive jobs and in some instances are idle. We (Delphi) currently have approximately 3,000 employees assigned to the bank with an associated cost penalty of approximately $300 million. This is a cost that many of our competitors do not face."
Williams goes on to say,"It’s important to note that while we are clearly challenged in the current environment, our problems are not with our people, nor our unions, rather the structure upon which we currently operate. The current structure -- conceived at a different time and under different circumstances -- does not allow us to react to a convergence of numerous factors (i.e. - pension contributions, commodity price increases, health care costs, etc.) in a timely manner."
McAlinden says that General Motors job banks costs more per person than Delphi, more on the lines of $120,000 per person per year. The number in job banks is being reported as 3,500 people, but industry insiders believe that number is way low, especially with the closure of the Linden, Baltimore and Lansing assembly lines. At the Lansing Car Assembly line there were 2,900 hourly (or union) members "laid off", in Linden and Baltimore there were 950 and 1,000 union members, respectively, laid off. That would total 8,350 employees without jobs, but that doesn’t count the people who retired, took a package or were deployed to other factories.
If the whispers are correct, then General Motors has closer to 7,000 people that are in job banks or will be soon. That would mean that General Motors is looking at closer to a $840,000,000 hit to their bottom line, versus the $420,000,000 speculators were saying. General Motors will not confirm any of these numbers
Things are looking brighter, at least for Delphi. The UAW-Delphi supplemental agreement was negotiated in May, 2004 and runs through September, 2011. Generally speaking, the wage and benefit package for employees hired under this agreement is roughly 60% of that earned by the current "traditional" employee. New hires average an all-in wage and benefit level of $24-25 an hour, compared to the all-in $60-70 an hour currently being earned. Additionally, there are no JOBS security provisions for employees hired under this agreement.
General Motors does not have a "two-tier" agreement with the UAW. Only Visteon and Delphi have signed this agreement, meaning that the Big 3 still pay their new hires the same rate and the new hires still have JOBS security.
Expect the job banks issue to be on the agenda in 2007 when the UAW opens their negotiations with the auto manufacturers. The discussion will probably center around whether it is the responsibility of one company to finance volunteers, or workers that just sit idle in a hall for eight hours, and keep the local economy going, or whether their efforts, and their money, might be better spent keeping their business as a going concern..
The UAW was contacted several times and never responded.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-22-2008).]
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10:48 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 41479 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Why bother no matter what I tell you, show you or whatever you are pissed because you don’t get that so just keep believing the propaganda of the media, who also hates the unions.
You said you don’t want anyone on the job bank yet its OK for the banks to give all those parties, golden parachutes.
We have a difference in what we feel is earned.
Years of service vs. education I'm done i will no longer try to show you anything here.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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05:02 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16233 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
Why bother no matter what I tell you, show you or whatever you are pissed because you don’t get that so just keep believing the propaganda of the media, who also hates the unions.
You said you don’t want anyone on the job bank yet its OK for the banks to give all those parties, golden parachutes.
We have a difference in what we feel is earned.
Years of service vs. education I'm done i will no longer try to show you anything here.
Go see a therapist man. That chip on your shoulder about education is so freaking big it has replaced your head. If you feel that bad about it why not start taking some courses? Maybe then you can see from a broader perspective. It couldn't hurt.
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05:11 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Why bother no matter what I tell you, show you or whatever you are pissed because you don’t get that so just keep believing the propaganda of the media, who also hates the unions.
You said you don’t want anyone on the job bank yet its OK for the banks to give all those parties, golden parachutes.
We have a difference in what we feel is earned.
Years of service vs. education I'm done i will no longer try to show you anything here.
Steve, Has ANYONE brought up education= deserved higher pay in this thread?
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05:11 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
so it would appear that the UAW is talking about giving up the job bank. that's a part of the problem. what is management going to give up? what are the decision makers going to do to change direction?
Why bother no matter what I tell you, show you or whatever you are pissed because you don’t get that so just keep believing the propaganda of the media, who also hates the unions.
You said you don’t want anyone on the job bank yet its OK for the banks to give all those parties, golden parachutes.
We have a difference in what we feel is earned.
Years of service vs. education I'm done i will no longer try to show you anything here.
Why would the friends of democrats in the media hate the friends of democrats in the unions? Both have similar friends and agendas?
I wish I could "earn" a job bank placement where I can get full pay and bennies for sitting around doing nothing all day making all that money. But silly me I have to work to get paid. Maybe if I didn't waste all my time getting an education I could have a menial job that pays twice as much as it should. Oh wait thats right I don't have that education. I just WORK for a living.
so it would appear that the UAW is talking about giving up the job bank. that's a part of the problem. what is management going to give up? what are the decision makers going to do to change direction?
Well if they can trim the union fat they can spend that money else where in the company to make better cars.
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06:00 PM
PFF
System Bot
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by Phranc: Well if they can trim the union fat they can spend that money else where in the company to make better cars.
all well and good for a partial solution, but are they going to listen to the buying public, or continue telling us what we want? are they going to cut some management fat?
all well and good for a partial solution, but are they going to listen to the buying public, or continue telling us what we want? are they going to cut some management fat?
Just how much management fat is there? And they have been selling what consumers want to buy. People wanted SUV and they sold them. Now more people want smaller cars and they have those too. Its not like GM only has an SUV line up.
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09:03 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
Why bother no matter what I tell you, show you or whatever you are pissed because you don’t get that so just keep believing the propaganda of the media, who also hates the unions.
You said you don’t want anyone on the job bank yet its OK for the banks to give all those parties, golden parachutes.
We have a difference in what we feel is earned.
Years of service vs. education I'm done i will no longer try to show you anything here.
And we wonder why America has lost so many manufacturing jobs...
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10:52 PM
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by Phranc: Just how much management fat is there?
now there's good question.
in my 35 years in the workforce i can probably count the managers who were actually good at their jobs on both hands, no toes required. i've had several managers whose main skills seem to be fence-riding, scapegoating and snorting coke. looks like fat to me.
[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 11-22-2008).]
in my 35 years in the workforce i can probably count the managers who were actually good at their jobs on both hands, no toes required. i've had several managers whose main skills seem to be fence-riding, scapegoating and snorting coke. looks like fat to me.
So why doesn't this affect the profitability in the rest of the worlds markets where GM is very profitable. These same places don't have any union fat. Maybe management is just grizzle.
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11:14 PM
Nov 23rd, 2008
cliffw Member
Posts: 37877 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by JazzMan: And you'd agree, what a counterfeit worker does is artificially depress wages for legitimate American workers, right? JazzMan
Oh course I would agree. I'll go you one more. My vocation, is big on safety. The number one safety tool is communication, in my opinion. I work with seemingly legitimate workers who can speak no english. Some with little to no experience. Because they will work for cheap and will make no waves. They also depress wages. In fact.....
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: The illegals in this country are doing work that Americans WILL do, Cliffw.
....legals are also doing work that Americans will do. Some Americans. My point stands. Many Americans are not willing to do some jobs because of the pay.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: According to market logic, the wage that a job is worth is what a LEGAL] worker is willing to do it for.......
I would say, the market is taking a correction. Just as the UAW will have to. Just as BIG THREE vehicle prices will have to. Not that the corrections I suggest for BIG AUTO will be enough. They also have to give their customers, what they want. Which would be quality and efficiency at an affordable cost. At least commensurate to what they purchase. A workers product is his work. Employers are his customer. Just as I may think my Fiero is worth so much, others may not.
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan: The reason why employers hire the illegals, or counterfeit workers, is because they're willing to do the work for sub-market wages.
Sub-market wages, , ? There are people willing to work for that money. Just as this thread is about gubment subsidizing Big Auto, gubment is subsidizing Americans to sit on their azz and collect benefits...food stamps, free housing, etc. Does that not artificially set wages. If a man is hungry, if a man needs a place to live, if a man is willing and able to work, he will do what is necessary to achieve those ends. If they are not given to them. A bailout, so to speak, . What gets me is the fact that the UAW is a Democratic party believer. The "Share the Wealth" party. I guess only if they do not have to share their wealth, .
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10:02 AM
lurker Member
Posts: 12355 From: salisbury nc usa Registered: Feb 2002
Originally posted by Phranc: So why doesn't this affect the profitability in the rest of the worlds markets where GM is very profitable. These same places don't have any union fat.
i'm sure it does affect profitability. there's also higher (non-union) labor costs here because of more benefits like heath care, unemployment insurance and retirement plans, (most of which we can thank unions for) and higher cost of living. eventually that will catch up with the "developing nations", and hopefully by that time we will still have some industry left.
quote
Originally posted by Phranc: Maybe management is just grizzle.
don't get me wrong. i've never worked in a union shop. the unions are out of control. but theyve done many good things, things we take for granted and wouldn't want to go without. they need to be cut back, not eliminated. like management.
Why bother no matter what I tell you, show you or whatever you are pissed because you don’t get that, so just keep believing the propaganda of the media, who also hates the unions.
'This', is where you make your biggest error Steve. I am not pised because I don't get those sort of benefits. I wouldn't take them if they were offered, as I feel it is stealing--to accept payment for work not being done. It's corporate welfare and nothing else.
quote
You said you don’t want anyone on the job bank yet its OK for the banks to give all those parties, golden parachutes.
Care to show me where I said it was ok?
quote
We have a difference in what we feel is earned.
If you mean the work performed during previous years earned someone the right to sit in a job bank, then it, in effect, means they are getting paid twice (or more) for the same work--once when the work was performed--again when they drew from the job bank. A signature on a piece of paper does not equal "earned" as far as I am concerned. If you are saying it does, the YOU are the one that is saying the "Golden Parachute" clauses are ok, since those clauses are a signed contract with the corporation. You can't have it both ways Steve.
quote
Years of service vs. education
I have no idea what you are alluding with that.
If you would quit allowing your emotions to run rampant, you might see both sides to a discussion.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-23-2008).]
Originally posted by lurker: i'm sure it does affect profitability. there's also higher (non-union) labor costs here because of more benefits like heath care, unemployment insurance and retirement plans, (most of which we can thank unions for) and higher cost of living. eventually that will catch up with the "developing nations", and hopefully by that time we will still have some industry left.
.
That is not what is happening though, they are never going to catch up, at least NOT in time to help anything here, we are going to be brought down to their level of living conditions and pay. This is what happens without a level playing field. The question is, do we do what we can to try and bring them UP to our level? or bring the world and us DOWN to their level.
Me? I choose America and what is good for us is my only concern. I truly believe that we are the victims of a smoke and mirrors game and are busy arguing points that are not the real problem. We are under an economic attack, and some of the answer lays with who the players in the oil futures markets were. It is no coincidence that oil spiking just happened to hit us in a weakened condition.
I am sure the carbon tax will fly through the lawmakers almost effortlessly and finish the job on us.
Not much we can do about the yen/dollar exchange ratio, but when the bailout goes thru, the "Janapnese subsidy" argument will be nullified, since our govt will-in effect--be subsidizing domestic atuo makers.
Not much we can do about the yen/dollar exchange ratio, but when the bailout goes thru, the "Janapnese subsidy" argument will be nullified, since our govt will-in effect--be subsidizing domestic atuo makers.
Not so much. Our bailout is a loan, and the amount is only equal to a few years of the Japanese, which will continue to go on as long as we let them. This yen manipulation form of subsidies does not include direct support that both China and Japan have ALWAYS put into their manufacturing.
What we can do is impose our power as the largest consumer and level the playing field, "fair trade" while we still have it. On developing nations such as China we put in place manufacturing pollution, safety and wage requirements to allow their imports, do not comply? tarrifs. With countries like Japan we tariff their products. And yes prices WILL go up at the stores, BUT they will really be just adjusting to the real costs as our country once again gets tooled up. We are now experiencing some of the real costs of sacrificing our manufacturing base. China is NOT our friend!
Protectionist attitude! hell yes!
Interesting how protecting ourselves and country has somehow become a dirty word.
We've seen over and over that bailout money is not being used properly. This somehow comes as a surprise to some people. What has any of the big 3 done to make us think 1. Will the bailout keep them from going under? Or will it just buy them a few months and we're right back where we started? 2. What chance do we have for the bailout to be repaid? The Big 3 have been in dire financial straits for decades and refused to change. Current UAW concessions may be too little, too late. 3. What will change at the Big 3 to ensure their future success?
Bankruptcy may be the better option. They say it will make people afraid to buy their cars, but people aren't exactly lining up for them now. They've got bigger problems than the perception of the company's liquidity. File Chapter 7, reorganize, and show a possible future. Then let the government guarantee the warranties, just like they guarantee mortgages. Then cut all executive pay and benefits dramatically until any government funds are repaid. CEO and executive contracts are nullified and renegotiated as a requirement of government funds.
Does anyone find it convenient that the Big 3 didn't reach this dire financial need until the government started handing out money? They've been through extreme difficulties in the past and had massive layoffs, plant closings, and reorganizations. Whether through reorganization or business failure, those jobs are going to be lost. A bailout will not sustain the status quo that got them in this mess to begin with.
It's not a loan, and should they get the money it won't be a one-time thing.
I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time either but I swear everything I have read so far says it is a loan. Whether they pay it back, who knows for sure. How about a link to something saying it is not. I think the 25 billion green thing is a grant of some sort.
The dems ARE going to give them the money regardless, everything is posturing so far.
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05:57 PM
GT86 Member
Posts: 5203 From: Glendale, AZ Registered: Mar 2003
I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time either but I swear everything I have read so far says it is a loan. Whether they pay it back, who knows for sure. How about a link to something saying it is not. I think the 25 billion green thing is a grant of some sort.
The dems ARE going to give them the money regardless, everything is posturing so far.
If no one on either side expects the money to be paid back, it isn't a loan regardless of how it is spun for the masses.
I don't know that the Dems are 100% on giving them the money. I agree that a lot of the tough talk now is just posturing, but the original "bailout" was highly unpopular, and they know perfectly well that GM and the rest will be back in a few months asking for more. Unless they feel a lengthy subsidy is going to be politically popular, they may not risk it. They also know that if they grant this "bailout", it's just that much more encouragement for other industries to come calling.
In the end, they'll do what they think is going to give them the best image.
I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time either but I swear everything I have read so far says it is a loan. Whether they pay it back, who knows for sure. How about a link to something saying it is not. I think the 25 billion green thing is a grant of some sort.
The dems ARE going to give them the money regardless, everything is posturing so far.
Just like what got the economic downturn ball rolling to begin with, is a loan? Subprime home mortgages. That $ is all gone forever.
You do realize $25 billion is no where near enough--even for just one of the big 3?
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-23-2008).]
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07:05 PM
cliffw Member
Posts: 37877 From: Bandera, Texas, USA Registered: Jun 2003
Originally posted by Red88FF: Here is an interesting read for you guys. It is only the tip of the iceberg too. http://www.autoyensubsidy.org/ Wake up people!
Hello ?
quote
Your linky Japan's Yen Subsidy....
Subsidy ?
quote
Your linky...opening paragraph “A sharp appreciation of the yen ........
Our Dollar used to be worth four million Pesos. No subsidy there.
, ? There are people willing to work for that money. Just as this thread is about gubment subsidizing Big Auto, gubment is subsidizing Americans to sit on their azz and collect benefits...food stamps, free housing, etc.
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