quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Why isn't GM selling off Saab and Daewoo about now?

Ford just announced they will be selling off their shares of Mazda, and GM will be selling their Suzuki shares. Funny thing is, Mazda as a whole is doing quite well, and has one of the nicest linesup in the autoworld right now.

quote Originally posted by AusFiero: Maybe it is time for GMH to do a takeover bid on the parent GM. Australia is in pretty good shape compared to most at the moment apparently. We have been running a budget surplus for a number of years which has helped with this downturn. Now if only the media would shut up so people spend again.

problem with that is, it wouldnt fix the UAW problem, which would just drag down two of the worldwide divisions instead of only one.....

quote Originally posted by ckfiero: problem with that is, it wouldnt fix the UAW problem, which would just drag down two of the worldwide divisions instead of only one.....

LOL, good point.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Our assy lines were just like yours Steve, but you are so biased, yopu won't admit it. Fast & furious, no room for screwups or slackers. You hesitate, the guy behind you will push you and whatever you are trying to do out of the way and we continued on without them. One misassembled part can scrap the entire fixture. Completed units usually weighed thousands of pounds, some 20 ft long, 12 ft high. I've seen myself dripping wet from sweat at the end of the day, every muscle sore. Get up and do it again the next morning. Maybe the same fixture--maybe a totally different fixture. You need to expand your horizons, open your mind a bit to what the rest of the world does--it's not so different. Look at it this way Steve. I did it--anyone can do it. You did it--anyone can do it. We just aren't that special. We really aren't. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. Any half way intelligent half way motivated person can do any job. It's not brain surgey and it's not rocket science.

Think again Don, just how many people were on your line?
Just how many people were working per shift?

You can not compare a 20 person line or even 100 person or 200 person assembly line to a 1,000 or more person line with yours unless there were that many different jobs.

Were there?

Like someone else said you have to realize that auto assembly plants are like small cities.

Our employee parking lot was over a ¼ mile long on one side of the plant and even longer on the other. And believe me a lot of us car pooled.

That was GM’s smallest plant, smallest.

You can not compare apples to oranges as Ace likes to say. I have worked other assembly lines Don. Built air conditioners, heat pumps on an assembly line. Not the same, not even close.

It’s like comparing a Yugo to a Cadillac.

Yes they are both cars but the differences are extreme.

If you have never worked in an Auto assembly plant on the line you can not even compare the differences.

Steve

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-20-2008).]

Your bias is evident. Bigger doesn't mean different. Just on a smaller scale. Same attention to detail--same quality concerns--same need for quanatative output. You may chose to continue in your beliefs if you wish Steve, but the fact that virtually everyone here disagrees with you, should be at least a clue that you are allowing your bias to cloud what is otherwise usually good judgement.

Ya know Steve, even my beloved Marine Corps makes major mistakes, and I have such strong ties to them that I would have died for them. Still would.

As Ace and I said you can not compare apples to oranges.

Size does matter. Somehow that just sounds bad.
The shear difference in employee count makes it different.
The amount of jobs,
The different jobs,

As I said you can not compare a Yugo to a Cadillac. Other than the fact that they are both cars are they the same?
No.
The shear size difference does make a big difference.
Lets put it in terms you might accept.
You are sending in a squad of marines into a war zone, is that the same as sending in a couple of battalions?
Do they both work the same jobs?
Do they both need and use the same amount of support?
If you have a small squad of men in combat do they have the same jobs as the battalion?
Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Don't need to. I have seen the old Ford truck plant line in operation when it was still running in DFW area. I have toured the Caterpillar plant near Peoria Ill when I was stationed at Great Lakes Naval Training Center. I have seen many Public TV specials and discovery channel specials on the auto plants. I know that of which I speak, and see things from both sides--not just one side. You are extremly biased on this subject and that subjective bias is clouding your judgement. I can't change that.

No Don you are the biased one. See I have worked in those plants you speak of, on the auto lines and the smaller lines in other situations building other things and you can not compare them.

Support, logistics, manpower, timing.

If one line goes down with 200 jobs you can jam up another line with another 200 jobs and so on and so forth.

Try dealing with 250,000 different people in one year that want a raise, or different job, or more benefits without the benefit of a union.

A union helps by you only have to deal with those involved in the negotiations. Not 250,000 different people.

There are good points and bad point to each situation. You only look at it from the outside, you can’t see it from the inside and out as I have.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Me--and 90% of the folks replying? C'mon Steve--think about it. From day 1 you have held these beliefs. I'm all for being tenacious regarding something I believe in, but when a ton of people start showing me where the error of my ways is, I begin to open my eyes and think "Hey Don--you may be wrong on this one".
Your error, is stated in your last post. You have the ability to look at it from both inside and outside, but your bias won't allow you to see and accept both sides. There's a difference between looking and seeing.

I helped move the entire 1st Marine Air Wing from the US to SE Asia. I know a bit about logistics too.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I helped move the entire 1st Marine Air Wing from the US to SE Asia. I know a bit about logistics too.

So are the logistics of moving an entire wing the same as moving a squad? The support needed the same for a squad as they are for a wing? The timing?

If you haven’t worked both places you can not truly understand the differences. I have. Have you and the others here who keep saying it is the same?

I understand why people think they are the same, they just have never worked both types of lines.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

how's about some return to topic: If GM goes under

what is the actual problem with this? what are some good points to giving them a mercy death?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: how's about some return to topic: If GM goes under what is the actual problem with this? what are some good points to giving them a mercy death?

The problem with GM and the rest of the big 3 going under will be catastrophic to the country as I have said in an earlier post.

Not only will 250,000 jobs be lost, the taxes from those jobs will be lost.

The support for those jobs will be lost. The companies that make the parts for those companies.

The 750,000 retirees will lose their retirement.

That alone is one million more people who will lose their incomes. Then all those others who make parts for those will lose their jobs.

It will just snowball.

Can we absorb that many jobs in this country, without it being a catastrophe.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: The problem with GM and the rest of the big 3 going under will be catastrophic to the country as I have said in an earlier post. Not only will 250,000 jobs be lost, the taxes from those jobs will be lost. The support for those jobs will be lost. The companies that make the parts for those companies. The 750,000 retirees will lose their retirement. That alone is one million more people who will lose their incomes. Then all those others who make parts for those will lose their jobs. It will just snowball. Can we absorb that many jobs in this country, without it being a catastrophe. Steve

so, you think it would be better to let it continue?
you think it should be nationilized/subsidized by the US Taxpayers?
so - in effect - every US taxpayer buys a new car every 5 years - whether they actualy do, or not. is that how it should be?

what is wrong with letting them fail, and allowing new, productive auto companies to grow from the ash?

I really dont want to pay for a new car every 5 years, without actually getting one. and that's the cycle which is being proposed.

If GM, Chrysler or Ford files for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, they will be forced to reorganize, not totally disappear. They will be indentured to many and will have to renegotiate contracts. This event will set a new standard for all automotive manufacturers to follow. That is what the Unions are worried about. It will not be the end of the world, the world of auto manufacturing will change but not end. This change will be painful to many but, it will not be the disaster some are calling for. I believe that Chrysler will be the first to fold, they may eventually be taken over by GM but who knows.

Ron

quote Originally posted by blackrams: If GM, Chrysler or Ford files for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy, they will be forced to reorganize, not totally disappear. They will be indentured to many and will have to renegotiate contracts. This event will set a new standard for all automotive manufacturers to follow. That is what the Unions are worried about. It will not be the end of the world, the world of auto manufacturing will change but not end. This change will be painful to many but, it will not be the disaster some are calling for. I believe that Chrysler will be the first to fold, they may eventually be taken over by GM but who knows. Ron

so a stronger "Big Three" could come out of bankruptcy? all good with that.

just really worried about the many retired folk who have been promised a decent retirement. no matter how you spin it - taking that away is unjust. but, maybe the retirees could sue the management for mismanaging to this point. Make Rick Wagoner and the likes pay their retirement. I am 100% OK with that.

They are talking about loans not a free ride. Not anything else, they are in this shape because of the economy. No one is buying anyone’s cars like they were a few years ago.

Bankruptcy could be even worse Ron, would you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy?
Do you think they could actually emerge?

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Not only will 250,000 jobs be lost, the taxes from those jobs will be lost.

No more $700.00 dollar hammers. There is way too much waste in government. Just as there is in every segment of society including Big Auto and the unions.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Can we absorb that many jobs in this country, without it being a catastrophe?

There are 12 million illegals doing work that Americans won't do. Will they pay the same ? No, so what ? What is a catastrophe ? One can argue it is when he lost his job. People can concede now that the system is broken and adjust, or, put an illegal out of work. The strong survive. There may be strength in numbers but, when the heard of lemings (or whatever they are) go off the cliff, no one survives.
Steve, how is this bail out gonna work ? What will it fix ?

quote Originally posted by cliffw: There are 12 million illegals doing work that Americans won't do. Will they pay the same ? No, so what ? What is a catastrophe ? One can argue it is when he lost his job. People can concede now that the system is broken and adjust, or, put an illegal out of work. The strong survive. There may be strength in numbers but, when the heard of lemings (or whatever they are) go off the cliff, no one survives. Steve, how is this bail out gonna work ? What will it fix ?

It will keep those retirees incomes going and pay those working now to keep building cars until the economy strengthens and sales are higher.

It is a loan they are looking for now. They didn’t ask for that 25 million they have been promised to make alternative vehicles. That they have as yet not seen.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: They are talking about loans not a free ride.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: A loan ? Fill out an application. You got a co-signer ? Do you have any collateral ? What is the loan for ? What plan will it achieve ? Will you have the means to pay it back ?

I am sure many existing auto manufactures will loan them the money they want if they put up collateral. Many American businesses might also with collateral. They want a loan with no plan, no guarantee, and risking no collateral.
It is not a loan.

Anyway.......
The UAW spokesman has already said they have no intention of giving up any more than they already have. Management has stated to congress that they have NO plans for restructuring the companys. Will their demise result in depression for the nation? Probably. Will still it occur if they are bailed out? Probably. So, why would anyone throw $ at a problem that $ alone can't fix? Answer is "You don't". "You can't". And, I am pretty sure the final answer from congress is going to be "We won't".
Both management and UAW are intrenchably set on the idea that the companys aren't broken and don't need fixing other than having more $, and untill those thought lines change, the problems can't be fixed-ever. Bankruptcy, as destructive as it may be, will force those changes on both sides, and there is no doubt that both sides have to accept and emplement huge changes. They are asking for $25 billion in guaranteed loans. That's on top of the $25B in loans for "green" development that has already been approved. Divide that between the 3 companies, and they won't end up with very much each. About $16.7 billion each if equally divided. Won't last them long--not nearly long enough--especially in GM's case. They have billions due in early '09 and again in 2010 for benefit/pension payments alone. This down economy is now expected to last thru 2010 at the minimum, and congress is adamant that the 1st $25 billion be used exclusively for what it was approved for--'green vehicle R&D & toolup costs". That might get the Volt into the dealer's showrooms, but nothing more and the Volt alone can't save GM.
Remeber--all it takes is 3 creditors to call and a company goes into banckruptcy/insolvency. GM has hundreds if not tens of thousands of creditors beating on their doors as I type this. GM alone has close to $286 BILLION in debt today.

11 months ago, their financial report was as follows:
All figures are in thousands (add a zero to the end of each number-every figure below is actually in billions..)
Dec 2007
Liabilities
Current Liabilities
Accounts Payable.................................................113,973,000
Short/Current Long Term Debt.................................6,047,000 5,666,000 -
Other Current Liabilities - - -

Total Current Liabilities.............................................113,973,000
Long Term Debt 285,750,000
Other Liabilities 56,242,000
Deferred Long Term Liability Charges.........................4,477,000
Minority Interest.......................................................1,039,000
Negative Goodwill - - -

Total Liabilities.........................................................461,481,000

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: .......and pay those working now to keep building cars until the economy strengthens and sales are higher.

Do we really need all those people building cars now ? Dealer lots and port of entry lots have zillions of cars being stored.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: It is a loan they are looking for now. They didn’t ask for that 25 million they have been promised to make alternative vehicles. That they have as yet not seen. Steve

Yes, they did. And, it's $25 Billion--not $25 million. Big 3's lobbyists asked congressional members from Michigan to sponsor the bill, and just yesterday, GM's president/ceo whatever, Rick Waggoner, asked to be allowed to use their portion of that $25 billion as part of a bridge loan to keep the company going. Senate said no--house may say otherwise.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-20-2008).]

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Bankruptcy could be even worse Ron, would you buy a car from a company in bankruptcy? Do you think they could actually emerge?

Steve,
That would depend on the product they offered. I do own a few 20 year old Pontiacs that I manage to keep going without much original manufacturer's support. I buy American when ever I can. I do have one foreign manufacturers vehicle, a Honda Valkyrie motorcycle but everything else is American or at least an American label. Dodge, Jeep or Pontiac. Yes, I do think they can come out of this. Chrysler, I'm not so sure about but, I do believe that Jeep will survive under some one's banner. I don't support a loan, I think management has to change or at least change the way they do business, I think the unions are overly compensated and the products are not compatible with what Americans think they want. The Big Three are slow to react to changes, some of that is due to union issues but I won't put the blame wholly on them. Management allowed this situation to get where it is. The UAW has almost always been overcompensated IMO but, because management could always raise the price of cars to us, they didn't mind the packages the unions asked for. They also didn't have the competition in the past they have now. A strike by the UAW has always scared all of the Big Three into compromising so as not to allow the other two manufacturers to gain any significant edge. Well, IMO, they screwed up. They should have fought tooth and nail for compensation packages that were more in line with what the actual oncoming competition was doing. I don' blame the Unions for getting what they could but, I also don't have any compassion for them when the shoe is on the other foot. Competition drives capitalism. Be competitive or don't survive. Unions contracts and poor management decisions have resulted in the current situation. The rest of the country is suffering in this economic recession, the Unions unwillingness to share in the pain does not endear them to most Americans.

Ron

[This message has been edited by blackrams (edited 11-20-2008).]

Warranties were also discussed yesterday. It was reported on MSNBC, that congress would be discussing a plan to authorize funding to guarantee warrantee claims from dealerships while F,GM & Chrysler restructured, should they go into bankruptcy Ch 11. Ch 7 would be a whole other ball game.

quote Originally posted by blackrams: Steve, That would depend on the product they offered. I do own a few 20 year old Pontiacs that I manage to keep going without much original manufacturer's support. I buy American when ever I can. I do have one foreign manufacturers vehicle, a Honda Valkyrie motorcycle but everything else is American or at least an American label. Dodge, Jeep or Pontiac. Yes, I do think they can come out of this. Chrysler, I'm not so sure about but, I do believe that Jeep will survive under some one's banner. I don't support a loan, I think management has to change or at least change the way they do business, I think the unions are overly compensated and the products are not compatible with what Americans think they want. The Big Three are slow to react to changes, some of that is due to union issues but I won't put the blame wholly on them. Management allowed this situation to get where it is. The UAW has almost always been overcompensated IMO but, because management could always raise the price of cars to us, they didn't mind the packages the unions asked for. They also didn't have the competition in the past they have now. A strike by the UAW has always scared all of the Big Three into compromising so as not to allow the other two manufacturers to gain any significant edge. Well, IMO, they screwed up. They should have fought tooth and nail for compensation packages that were more in line with what the actual oncoming competition was doing. I don' blame the Unions for getting what they could but, I also don't have any compassion for them when the shoe is on the other foot. Competition drives capitalism. Be competitive or don't survive. Unions contracts and poor management decisions have resulted in the current situation. The rest of the country is suffering in this economic recession, the Unions unwillingness to share in the pain does not endear them to most Americans. Ron

yup, we got 3 old fighters in the ring who have beatin' each other silly - and now, many fresh young trim fighters have jumped in the ring.

fat flubby self-important

we need NEW

dump this junk

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

A job is worth what any worker is willing to do the work for. I'll shovel feces for a quarter/hour if I get hungry enough.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: I'll shovel feces for a quarter/hour if I get hungry enough.

Point well taken but, as the old saying goes, this thread is worthless without pics.

Ron

In a perfect world:

Step 1) The bailout will not happen
Step 2) The big 3 will declare Bankruptcy
Step 3) The Arbitor will re-write the rule book on the UAW and fire the entire management staff.
Step 4) The current line of crap cars will be completely wiped-out and new, better, more efficient cars with international appeal will be built and sold around the world.
Step 5) The Arbitor will TELL Jenny Granholm what taxes will be paid and she will take it and like it.
Step 6) Mitt Romney will be made Car Czar and turn these businesses into profit centers again.

Well, I can post pics of the manure shoveling part, but right now, I ain't gettin quite $.25 return on it. OK, I ain't getting nothing for it. Kinda like GM--my costs outweigh my recievables on the cow feces, and the cows seem to not even appreciate my cleaning endeavors. Won't even pay for the shovel. Not even my cows either. You shoulda seen Jane last year when that Simental bull backed up and dropped a nice big squishy load right on the hood of her 84. (I had to turn away so she wouldn't see me laughing)

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: The problem with GM and the rest of the big 3 going under will be catastrophic to the country as I have said in an earlier post. Not only will 250,000 jobs be lost, the taxes from those jobs will be lost. The support for those jobs will be lost. The companies that make the parts for those companies. The 750,000 retirees will lose their retirement. That alone is one million more people who will lose their incomes. Then all those others who make parts for those will lose their jobs. It will just snowball. Can we absorb that many jobs in this country, without it being a catastrophe. Steve

If GM goes under, another car company with a better managed and more competant work force will fill their place. If they fall, it's not like people will stop buying cars, it's just that if they are used to buying North American tax subsidized junk they will have to look at other options. I think this is a great opportunity for companies such as Toyota to bolster their manufacturing strength in North America, and to take advantage of the unions and the Big 3's plight. Myself, I am taking a small amount of satisfaction watching filled the paniced Canadian Auto Workers on TV crying out for a government bailout or else it will be doomsday for the world. They had one decal applicator at a plant in Ontario saying that him and his wife depend on his income, and that they have a half a million dollar mortage and two vehicles to make payments on and the possibility of a wage cut, or even worse, loss of his job would financially ruin them. He said the government must step in to help him. Maybe this is one of those highly technical jobs Steve talks about. It's just nice to see that the light is finally coming on and they are finally realized that their golden goose is cooked. Even more satisfying is that I think it is even starting to sink into these knuckleheads that it is their own greed and outrageous demands that largely put the companies in their current situation.

Let them fall.

Getlinger (UAW) is holding a press conference at high noon.


SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) -- Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers union, is holding a news conference at noon Eastern Time Thursday at union headquarters in Detroit. Gettelfinger, along with the heads of General Motors Corp. , and Chrysler LLC, appeared before Congress on Tuesday and Wednesday to petition the government to provide ailing U.S. auto makers with bridge loans to support operations.

Quick!! Buy textiles stock. Big demand for crying towels both currently and in the near to long term future.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: You shoulda seen Jane last year when that Simental bull backed up and dropped a nice big squishy load right on the hood of her 84. (I had to turn away so she wouldn't see me laughing)

Now, that's something I would have paid good money to see, a pic with the bull doing his thing showing Jane's face in the background. Priceless.

Sorry Jane, it would be funny.

Ron

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: If GM goes under, another car company with a better managed and more competant work force will fill their place. If they fall, it's not like people will stop buying cars, it's just that if they are used to buying North American tax subsidized junk they will have to look at other options. I think this is a great opportunity for companies such as Toyota to bolster their manufacturing strength in North America, and to take advantage of the unions and the Big 3's plight. Myself, I am taking a small amount of satisfaction watching filled the paniced Canadian Auto Workers on TV crying out for a government bailout or else it will be doomsday for the world. They had one decal applicator at a plant in Ontario saying that him and his wife depend on his income, and that they have a half a million dollar mortage and two vehicles to make payments on and the possibility of a wage cut, or even worse, loss of his job would financially ruin them. He said the government must step in to help him. Maybe this is one of those highly technical jobs Steve talks about. It's just nice to see that the light is finally coming on and they are finally realized that their golden goose is cooked. Even more satisfying is that I think it is even starting to sink into these knuckleheads that it is their own greed and outrageous demands that largely put the companies in their current situation. Let them fall.

well - there is an idea - how's about Canada step up and bail them out?

Genuine Monkey Crap

lol - decal applicator....with a 1/2 million $ mortgage, eh?
and - these are the guys at the bottom - just imagine the outragousness at the top

There are THREE in the 'Big 3'. If one goes down, you can bet the others will take notice REAL QUICK to fix themselves. This may be what the industry needs. Suppliers can at least be kept in business because people that would have bought the fallen ones cars, will have no choice but buy from the survivors...boosting up their sales, thereby keeping those suppliers afloat. Suppliers not trimming themselves would fall with it. Most suppliers ' usually ' dont just deal with one manufacturer.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: It's just nice to see that the light is finally coming on and they are finally realized that their golden goose is cooked. Even more satisfying is that I think it is even starting to sink into these knuckleheads that it is their own greed and outrageous demands that largely put the companies in their current situation they are the ones that overcooked that goose and now have to eat it.

Fixed that for you.

Their reaction would simply be--better burned goose than no goose at all. Business as usual.
Anyone listen to the Getelfinger press conference? How many American UAW workers does it take to build a car compared to the # of American workers in import car companies located further south? I seem to recall it was about double the #, but couldn't catch all of it. MNBC kept breaking for commercials.
Sounded more like he was speaking to his UAW members than to the US population and congress. But, he did admit quite readily, that if the big 3 failed, the slack market share would be taken up by other car makers like Toyota, Honda, MB etc.

Looks like a senate committee has come to some sort of agreement to allow big 3 to dip into & use the $25B "Green Car" fund to help them out, but no one thinks the resolution will pass on the full floor of the senate.
Ford/GM stock up on this news tho. So much for their stock price woes being tied directly to the rest of the economy.