Steve, the rest of the country really doesn't care much. They are willing to take the risk, as they see it as a case of an entire culture--top to bottom--of the whole industry being overpaid and completely out of touch with today's world. Everyone is going to have to give a lot to save the US auto industry. I personally do not think it can be done--with any amt of money. They are too big-too clumsy--too ineffecient. Way overmanned and way overweight--top to bottom.

More and more it looks like this will be the straw that breaks the union's back. The UAW (and CAW) workers will have to take MAJOR wage cuts for the Detroit 3 to become competitive. I'm not saying salaried won't, but the pain won't be as bad. There's no reason for unskilled labour to be making the equivalent of $75 an hour (with benefits). Anyone who doesn't think labour costs are a major portion of the cost of a vehicle is delusional. If you cut labour costs by half, you'd see a 10%-15% drop in the price of vehicles.

Remember, these labour costs trickle down too. Lots of the Tier 1 suppliers have UAW workers as well. They're not as well compensated as OEM workers, however many of them are still overpaid.

I don't think we will see much of a drop in vehicle prices for the end buyers, but we will see either a big reduction in the overall costs of operations and thus, a reduction in the amount of qtrly loss--which right now, is all we could hope for. They are still at least 1 yr away from profitablility, under even the best scenarios. IF they can get thier operating costs down, pay some or most of their debt down, then MAYBE they get get enough private investers (car buyers) back into their business to make them profitable again.
You have to remember--they already make and sell more cars than any other single manufactorer. Selling cars is not the problem--costs is. Because of high accross the board costs--they essentially are selling their products at a loss. Only 2 ways to remedy this:
1. Increase their sales by about 1/3 again over what they have now.--ain't gonna happen--the industry is too competitive, and that would take way way way too long anyway.
2. Reduce costs. They have absolutely positively GOT to get their costs and debt down. There is simply no other way to get out of this without that happening. An infusion of billions of dollars of loaned money will only "appear" to help--for a very short period of time---it doesn't address the real problem, and only adds to their already staggering amt of debt.

IF the US Govt were to take over the pension liability, it may help some. GM has a contactual obligation to make a pension fund payment in 2009 and another in early 2010, that is an ungodly amt for GM to somehow come up with. UAW has taken over a part of that, and has taken over all of the management of pension fund payments, but the $ still has to come from GM, and to be honest, until they begin to be profitable again, they can't afford to make the payments. The cash just isn't there, and won't be even if all of management were to immediately go on a no-salary status. (work for free). That's how bad it is.

You guys don't seem to realize that even cutting wages to reduce vehicle costs here in the US isn't the answer. The Asian Car Companies can easily reduce their vehicle cost prices in the US below that, because their profit margin is a lot greater. Secondly, those "blue collar" and "white collar" automotive people pay a considerable amount of taxes. Taxes lost by those reduced wages, have to come from somewhere in the form of increased taxes for everyone.

Now if the goal is to reduce the USA standard of living to that of 3rd World Countries, that would be the right approach. I thought the USA was a "Land of Opportunity" to live a better life than other Countries, but the winds of change appear to have taken a curve with our Leadership of recent years.

I've never thought highly of the Unions or high paid Executives, but I don't think that they are the "substance" of the issue today.

If GM fails, Ford and Chrysler will follow, there is no doubt about this, they all share the same Supplier Base. If one tumbles, Suppliers have to increase their piece price to remaining Companies, driving the vehicle cost up. If one tumbles, a larger percentage of their sales will go to the imports.

It's interesting to see other opinions posted here, these are just some of my thoughts, and I think I've expressed enough of my thoughts on the topic, we're in a huge mess.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Taxes lost by those reduced wages, have to come from somewhere in the form of increased taxes for everyone. .

Or maybe the governments could cut spending.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: You guys don't seem to realize that even cutting wages to reduce vehicle costs here in the US isn't the answer. The Asian Car Companies can easily reduce their vehicle cost prices in the US below that, because their profit margin is a lot greater. Secondly, those "blue collar" and "white collar" automotive people pay a considerable amount of taxes. Taxes lost by those reduced wages, have to come from somewhere in the form of increased taxes for everyone.

Not the cost of the car at the dealership--or even to the dealer. The cost of building the car. As far as increasing everyone elses taxes to make up for the shortfall in tax revenue? So be it. No difference there and the federal treasury doling out billions of $ to keep a dinasaur afloat. And, every segment of GM's problem is dinasaurian in nature. That manufactoring model is headed for distinction just as surely as if an asteroid were to hit Michigan. No business can continue to pay wages and costs like GM is when their profit margin is so low, and it will take years, even under the best scenario for them to become profitable.

quote Now if the goal is to reduce the USA standard of living to that of 3rd World Countries, that would be the right approach. I thought the USA was a "Land of Opportunity" to live a better life than other Countries, but the winds of change appear to have taken a curve with our Leadership of recent years.

You can not have it both ways. If the company isn't making a profit--and it isn't and won't for the forseeable future, none of the work force can expect to make the kinds of wages and benefits they have under good times.

quote I've never thought highly of the Unions or high paid Executives, but I don't think that they are the "substance" of the issue today. If GM fails, Ford and Chrysler will follow, there is no doubt about this, they all share the same Supplier Base. If one tumbles, Suppliers have to increase their piece price to remaining Companies, driving the vehicle cost up. If one tumbles, a larger percentage of their sales will go to the imports.

NO they do not have to increase their piece price. They too have to cut thier workforce down to the size the new market requires--just as they have had to hire more workers in the past, when the market expanded. That's how all business segments work. A workforce to meet the needs of the market--no more no less. It happens in financials, tech, mining, and everywhere else, and it has to occur in the auto supply and manufactoring segment as well. Yep, lots of people
will be out of a job, but capitalism does not pay people to sit on their backsides and do nothing. Socialism does tho.

quote It's interesting to see other opinions posted here, these are just some of my thoughts, and I think I've expressed enough of my thoughts on the topic, we're in a huge mess.

Forget about the shortfall of Taxes you will experience...how about the loss of that expendable income? After all, by nature, those blue-collar workers are the type who spend 110% of the money they GET in their wage packets...and there are still a lot of them in concentrated areas. And possibly mny of them have credit agreements (both mortgage AND consumer credit) which they will probably be unable to sustain making repayments BECAUSE of their history of spending to the last penny and beyond every payday. This contraction in freely-spent money in the localities where these workers live is not going to hit the big chainstores so much as any local, family run and small businesses....
BUT...this happened all over the Uk many years ago, when both the Coalmining industry, and the Motor construction industry folded. Many many MANY local businesses folded rapidly. Some of the laid-off workers took their severance pay and moved to Spain, and bought businesses here, in Tourism. many many many lost the lot. Some started small businesses with that severance pay, and survived. New businesses moved into the area, and started to revive the local economy too. Nobody was crippled for ever..but many were seriously injured.
I would advise Barack Obama have a few consulting sessions with Maggie Thatcher..could do no harm, IMHO.
Nick
And a final thought...Tony Blair took over from the Conservatives with New Labour, and did well for a few years, using policies that were in fact the structure of Conservatism, and did it better than the Conservatives could at the time. I wouldn't be surprised to see Barack Obama doing the same thing. But keep a tight rein on him...because 'Old Labour ' lurked in the background, and got Blair out. Look at 'New Labour' now. Dead and almost buried. Thank God.
You, in turn, will find a David Cameron yourselves. That won't be bad..I have faith in him
Nick

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 11-16-2008).]

I don't see the point of the govt "bailing" GM out. Give them cash now, they'll just be back in a few months asking for more. GM is so inefficient and so unprofitable at this point in time, I don't think there's anyway to bail them out. At least, there's no way GM could ever pay back the money it would take to get them profitable again. And really, the entire culture of the Big 3 (labor and management both) is antiquated and not likely to change unless they crash. They're likely to fail even with handouts, so don't bother.

Since our govt seems to love the idea of handing out cash, why not try to get some benefit from it? A bailout would basically be turning GM into a modern-day Public Works Administration project, so why not just go all the way and bring back the PWA? Take the workers that become unemployed, and spend that bailout money on infrastructure projects, where at least we'd see some tangible benefit. Better than throwing it away trying to bail out broken companies.

We done done it. it is us that has destroyed America this is just the beggining ,Yes ,we DONE did it. we GOTTER DONE
I see some of the anvil heads are begginning to wake up..
This is nothing ,wait.. till G.M ,Ford , and the other company go under,, we are not England this is really much bigGER
The people have demanded,, insisted,, fought for ,, that more and more manufacturing go to another country .THE LOWEST PRICE remember the 3 calls YOU made to auto parts store to find lowest price?? screw quality
Chinese quality has improved, thanks to your many purchases,, that led to having the money to improve quality
My post last year about the destruction of our economy and Japanese cars ?? remember?? many many hated them ,,BUT WAIT worse is comming, I know !! but will keep my mouth shut ..Let this sink in some more .
WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND IT IS US.. it is me ,it is you gentle reader
Its to late !!
GOD, GUNS, GUTS AND FIERO,S MADE AMERICA GREAT some of you are beginning to understand what that means

I wonder how many million of any possible handout goes into the corp Pres and execs pockets ?

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Steve, the rest of the country really doesn't care much. They are willing to take the risk, as they see it as a case of an entire culture--top to bottom--of the whole industry being overpaid and completely out of touch with today's world.

Actually, I do care. I do not think that they should get a bail out. Not because I believe that they are overpaid or out of touch. I do know that I have been buying Toyota. I don't care if they are overpaid or out of touch. It is not my job to care about them. Not so much because of the risk, as because I see it as failure. We got an industry that is operating at a loss everyday. What was the million/billion bailout figure they wanted? Maybe someone can put it into perspective. How much profit did they make yearly ? I know it differs year to year but, I would guess that their handout that they are asking is just a drop in that bucket. They did not save for a rainy day ? I also guess that the bailout request is only a drop in the bucket of what they need. It is not funny to me that they are asking for money and offering no plan about how that money will work.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Everyone is going to have to give a lot to save the US auto industry.

What did they ever give us ? We already gave them a lot, for what they produced. They made a profit from us.

quote Originally posted by California Kid: I know it's a real messy complicated situation, but you have to remember our elected government put GM, Ford, and Chrysler in the position it's in today.

Can you elaborate ? Are you talking about the equality of import/export taxes ?

quote Originally posted by California Kid: Reason: To reduce snip costs to be more competitive with imports coming into the USA. That happened just in the last 12 months. They did it because they had to and eliminated a middle class job base here in the USA for those parts, and this will continue to happen with "all" Industries in the USA until something is done about it.

Hmmm, interesting thought. Similar to one American company competing against another. Thing is, is that we are competing with the world now. I think this is a good thing. For all the talk about Obama redistributing the wealth, the rest of the world is actually trying to earn some. America the great has shown the world how to prosper (which is the correct way to redistribute the wealth). Based on the way we did. What are we afraid of ?

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: This is something you people who say let them go need to think about. He hit it right on the nose. If GM and the others go under there are going to waves of companies that supply them going under. Think Detroit is a ghost town? Half of America will look like that. And that will send us into a depression of cataclysmic proportions.

I have thought about that Steve. First off, I expect a depression. It has also been predicted by various economists. Whether or not the GM bailout goes through.
Guess what ? It is a conspiracy to get rid of the illegal immigration problem. There will be no jobs that Americans won't do. J/K about a conspiracy, . People will work for less, just as companies try to sell for less. Capitalism made us rich, why abandon it now ? In favor of what ? Welfare ? Corporate welfare ? Pulleeese, .
I have faith in America.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: What did they ever give us ? We already gave them a lot, for what they produced. They made a profit from us.

There are a lot of good arguments here and I'm pretty biased so I'll stand back, but this statement struck me pretty good and made me say 'wow' to myself. The US auto industry allowed us to win WWII. This industry is our last bastion of the ability to make 'stuff' of every kind. With the worst case scenario of that 'stuff' being tanks, artillery, heavy weapons, etc. The US will continue to spiral out of control and into oblivion if we keep giving away our ability to fabricate and produce things of every size.

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: The US will continue to spiral out of control and into oblivion if we keep giving away our ability to fabricate and produce things of every size.

We are not giving it away, we want too much to keep it.

quote Originally posted by CTFieroGT87: The US auto industry allowed us to win WWII. This industry is our last bastion of the ability to make 'stuff' of every kind.

I agree with the first thought. General Motors produced the M1 and M2 30 caliber military carbine rifle. I actually had the honor of shooting an M2. I was flabbergasted that it was stamped General Motors. This was in '82. I take my statement back that they did not give us anything. Perhaps it is time to pony up again ?
The second thought, debatable. GM could fold. Someone will buy them. They might have to settle for a fire sale. The factory will be here. There are workers who are well qualified to man the new companies production lines. We have the knowledge. Do we have the will ? That is what it took then. Money does not buy will power.

[This message has been edited by cliffw (edited 11-17-2008).]

In the event that GM does not make the Camaro, you can still get a new one...

Year One makes "new" 67,68 and 69 Camaros, with warranties.

Hardtop or Convertible, your choice.

The ripple affect has started. Only in reverse and it could take the big three and others along with it..

Experts: Supplier woes put auto industry in danger
By BREE FOWLER
p {margin:12px 0px 0px 0px;}
NEW YORK (AP) - The financial woes of U.S. automakers have grabbed Washington's attention, but similar problems at auto suppliers have the potential to set off a cataclysmic chain of events in the industry if key parts makers run out of cash and fail.
As with the automakers, auto suppliers' sales have tumbled this year because of the steep drop in demand for new vehicles.
That has forced suppliers to burn through their cash reserves and slash their costs to stay in business, said Craig Fitzgerald, an automotive analyst with Southfield, Mich.-based Plante & Moran PLLP, which advises about 400 small and midsize auto suppliers.
Meanwhile, banks and other credit providers have become dead-set against lending to any company in the faltering automotive industry, making it difficult and expensive for suppliers to get needed financing.
But if the companies at the bottom of the supply chain don't find a way to recapitalize, Fitzgerald warned, numerous bankruptcies and liquidations among the small companies will set off a string of parts shortages that could reach all the way to the vehicle assembly line.
The resulting disruptions could negate any help the government might give General Motors Corp. "Either they deal with the liquidity issues at the lower tier, or these problems have the potential to just devastate the Detroit OEMs and the other automakers," Fitzgerald said, referring to so-called original equipment manufacturers GM, Ford and Chrysler. "It's an issue equal to what's going on at the Big Three, they just don't have the heft, so it doesn't get quite the play."
In most cases, auto suppliers have their own suppliers, who in turn receive their parts from other companies, meaning that many automotive components pass through a chain of several companies before they're sold to an automaker.
"The fragility of the whole thing is very much like a house of cards," said Bob Viswanathan, an assistant professor of operations management at the University at Buffalo School of Management. "Everybody knows that the finance markets are so interconnected, but the auto industry is worse."
Tom Wiethorn, co-owner of Craig Assembly, said orders for his St. Clair, Mich., company's hose connectors - used in radiators that end up in GM and Ford vehicles - have fallen significantly in recent months.
As a result the company, which has $12 million in annual sales, has cut its work force by 20 percent to about 60 people and is worried that it could end up violating its debt agreements.
"This is very serious," said Wiethorn, who also serves as a manufacturing representative setting up contracts for other auto suppliers. "Some of the suppliers I know are teetering on bankruptcy."

http://apnews.excite.com/ar...81116/D94G8VFG0.html

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 11-16-2008).]

I think import taxes or tariffs should stand even if there built here. The tax should apply to where the company home office is. Take Toyota, even if some are made here, big money goes home to Japan to the comany execs. Now if Toyota wants to move all its operating offices and personel here to the US, fine.

If GM or Chrysler goes under, what happens to Nascar ? They wont have any manufacturer sponsership. It will be a Ford or Toyota ' IROC ' series, lol. It will be even more boring than it is now.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I think import taxes or tariffs should stand even if there built here. The tax should apply to where the company home office is. Take Toyota, even if some are made here, big money goes home to Japan to the comany execs. Now if Toyota wants to move all its operating offices and personel here to the US, fine. If GM or Chrysler goes under, what happens to Nascar ? They wont have any manufacturer sponsership. It will be a Ford or Toyota ' IROC ' series, lol. It will be even more boring than it is now.

Devil's advocate
And yet, nobody complains about the billions of dollars that are sent to Israel every year, via the Jewish spiders web that links MOST of the Conglomerates? Honestly, how can a Country the size of Wales produce so much, to earn so much? Could it be the powerful Jews in the US are bleeding billions out of the US and sending it back home, on top of the support the US Governmet sends them every year?..
I don't doubt there is a reasonable explanation forthcoming
Nick

quote As a result the company, which has $12 million in annual sales, has cut its work force by 20 percent to about 60 people and is worried that it could end up violating its debt agreements.

Smart folks. Are you listening to them GM? Cut to the bone.
to the BONE!!

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I think import taxes or tariffs should stand even if there built here. The tax should apply to where the company home office is. Take Toyota, even if some are made here, big money goes home to Japan to the comany execs. Now if Toyota wants to move all its operating offices and personel here to the US, fine. If GM or Chrysler goes under, what happens to Nascar ? They wont have any manufacturer sponsership. It will be a Ford or Toyota ' IROC ' series, lol. It will be even more boring than it is now.

The problem of this idea, if China or Russia applied the same policies. GM is the biggest seller in China, Russia and many places in Europe. GM has a growing market in the orient. I found it odd when I was in Shanghai to have a Buick Century pick me up as a taxi. The real oddity was it ran on compressed gas..no trunk for luggage as it had a big gas cylinder in the trunk. Outwardly it looked just like the Buick I had left in my driveway at home.

quote Originally posted by htexans1: In the event that GM does not make the Camaro, you can still get a new one... Year One makes "new" 67,68 and 69 Camaros, with warranties. Hardtop or Convertible, your choice.

AND Firebird and Challenger too..... A LOTTT better deal for the money in my opinion too. You get a totally handmade beauty instead of a cookie cutter piece of factory crap.

Anyone see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl

(GM post video of what will happen if they collapse... )

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: Anyone see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl (GM post video of what will happen if they collapse... )

Wow - that is enlightening. ONly 230,000 workers, and almost 3 million individuals collecting benefits and pensions. No wonder they can't stay afloat.

quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: Anyone see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl (GM post video of what will happen if they collapse... )

Put out by GM, which is ok. It is biased though.
It is an advertising campaign put out by GM Facts And Fiction. In which every fact/fiction article is dated August 26th, 2008. 'Cept, they left a few facts out. Such as......how they plan to spend the bailout money, how it will work. How it even has a chance of working since........

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: But if the companies at the bottom of the supply chain don't find a way to recapitalize, Fitzgerald warned, numerous bankruptcies and liquidations among the small companies will set off a string of parts shortages that could reach all the way to the vehicle assembly line. The resulting disruptions could negate any help the government might give General Motors Corp. "Either they deal with the liquidity issues at the lower tier, or these problems have the potential to just devastate the Detroit OEMs and the other automakers," Fitzgerald said, referring to so-called original equipment manufacturers GM, Ford and Chrysler. "It's an issue equal to what's going on at the Big Three, they just don't have the heft, so it doesn't get quite the play."

........the suppliers will also need a bailout.

Like it or not, we will have to compete globally. Until we do, American jobs will go overseas. As I mentioned somewhere.....this is a redistribution of wealth which many Democrats want. "Cept others are working to earn it.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: The problem of this idea, if China or Russia applied the same policies. GM is the biggest seller in China, Russia and many places in Europe. GM has a growing market in the orient. I found it odd when I was in Shanghai to have a Buick Century pick me up as a taxi. The real oddity was it ran on compressed gas..no trunk for luggage as it had a big gas cylinder in the trunk. Outwardly it looked just like the Buick I had left in my driveway at home.

Motortrend had an artcile on the Chinese version of the Buick enclave last year. They said it was unlike any other GM vehicle they had seen; the fit and finish were impeccable. As it turned out, these Enclave's were manufactured for export overseas, and they said that the extra quality was required to be competitive in the foreign market. Motortrend summed it up as GM knowing that consumer's faithful to the american product lines will buy american no matter how shoddy the quality is, whereas the Chinese demand a higher standard than the usual junk they sell over here. Too bad China isn't so particular about the quality of the exports they send over here! It is very enlightening to know that GM in particular feels that the Chinese deserve a better quality product than the folks at home. Maybe thats why their vehicles are selling in China, and not here.

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Wow - that is enlightening. ONly 230,000 workers, and almost 3 million individuals collecting benefits and pensions. No wonder they can't stay afloat.

Loafer do you have a problem with someone collecting an earned benefit?

GM employees that are getting retirement earned that. They worked for a Minimum of 10 years under a contract that gave them a retirement. They had to work 30 years to get a full retirement.

Most of those on retirement right now have been employed at GM since before you were born most likely. They put in their time, most over 25 years.

Is it wrong ?

They earned it.

How long have you been working?
How long have you been working for one company?
Do you have a contract with your employer?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

c'mon - how could they possibly be having troubles? they have the highest paid executive branch on the planet.
Rick Wagoner makes more than all of congress put together - what do you mean they're going bankrupt?
lol - IF gm goes under....lol

/\
But all rather moot once the company folds under the weight of all those payouts- (blue & white collar)-- isn't it.
Cut Cut Cut Cut Cut

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-17-2008).]

By the way it is 775,000 retirees right in that video.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

I don't care for Ashton Kutcher (spelling?) very much but I did like what he said about the Auto bailout.
his words the big 3 need to get the oil companys to bail them out!
thats who they work for anyway.

on another thought. what do you think our auto industry would be like if big oil did not keep new tech. from us?
I don't mind them having pattons on things but the laws should be altered. you should not be allowed a patton just to keep the tech away fron the people.
share the info and profit from that!
could you imagin cars that go 100mi/gal or even electric cars that can go 2-300mi. on one charge.
the Big 3 have always been 3 years behind everyone else in the auto industry it is time for them to catch up and lead the world again.
if they can't? let them fail. then maybe someone could buy what is left and start a new company that makes better cars.

This is a tough situation no matter which political party you favor. On the one hand, perhaps GM should be allowed to go bankrupt and reorganize. They can they dump the outrageous union contracts they are subjected to and stop supporting a million emplyees and retirees with hugh pensions and health care. Provide reduced retirement benefits and only partial health care.
But, it is also difficult to see so many GM, Ford and Chrysler subcontractor employees with less lucrative salaries and health care be hurt by this problem.
Until the economy gets fixed (years away) everyone has to make some concessions.
I will gladly give up the bonus MY BOSS RECEIVES to help the cause.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Firefighter (edited 11-17-2008).]

quote Originally posted by whodeanie: I don't care for Ashton Kutcher (spelling?) very much but I did like what he said about the Auto bailout. his words the big 3 need to get the oil companys to bail them out! thats who they work for anyway. on another thought. what do you think our auto industry would be like if big oil did not keep new tech. from us? I don't mind them having pattons on things but the laws should be altered. you should not be allowed a patton just to keep the tech away fron the people. share the info and profit from that! could you imagin cars that go 100mi/gal or even electric cars that can go 2-300mi. on one charge. the Big 3 have always been 3 years behind everyone else in the auto industry it is time for them to catch up and lead the world again. if they can't? let them fail. then maybe someone could buy what is left and start a new company that makes better cars.

I find it amazing that people still beleive this junk.
the "big 3" build what people want. if it wasnt SUv's - why have all the other automakers went and built SUV's? Porsche has an SUV. c'mon. Toyota big Ridgeline Campaign -- trying out size american trucks. yes, the Big Three tried to dodge the Econobox.

but - either way - dont matter. every person in the "big three" is paid way to much. its a swarm of vampires - not a work force. with Dracula at the top.

And will all go down in flames on the last payday, all claiming "But so what? Who cares if it folded? We earned it".

------------------
"At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide."

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I wonder how many million of any possible handout goes into the corp Pres and execs pockets ?

I'm betting almost all of it.
Then we'll wait, and hope that some of that cash somehow "trickles down" to us non CEO peons.
Keep waiting. It'll get down here eventually.
Wanna buy some waterfront property in Florida? Cheap?
How about a bridge?

quote originally posted by rogergarrison: I think import taxes or tariffs should stand even if they're built here. The tax should apply to where the company home office is. Take Toyota, even if some are made here, big money goes home to Japan to the comany execs. Now if Toyota wants to move all its operating offices and personel here to the US, fine.

[This message has been edited by NEPTUNE (edited 11-17-2008).]

Other companies like Porsche and BMW built SUVs to compete in the US market that begged for them. I can tell you Porsche engineers would have NEVER built one on their own. Im just surprised Lambo never caved and built one too...or a pickup.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Other companies like Porsche and BMW built SUVs to compete in the US market that begged for them. I can tell you Porsche engineers would have NEVER built one on their own. Im just surprised Lambo never caved and built one too...or a pickup.

It almost happened:

quote [From Jalopnik:] According to our buddy Chris Paukert, formerly of Autoblog, who's now posting for Winding Road, AutoExpress reports Lambo's scuttled plans to build successors to its Espada GT and super-bad LM002 SUV (pictured) of the last millennium. Word had been swirling for years that a project to build a new 2+2 — an homage to the company's odd Espada SUV of the 1970s — was on, then off, then on again. Likewise for a new, high performance SUV — less radical than the shikh-bait LM002 — based on the VW Touareg / Porsche Cayanne / Audi Q7. Both projects are reportedly off, but there's not word on whether the company will do the right thing and build the Miura concept for production. http://news.windingroad.com/?p=348

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Other companies like Porsche and BMW built SUVs to compete in the US market that begged for them. I can tell you Porsche engineers would have NEVER built one on their own. Im just surprised Lambo never caved and built one too...or a pickup.

Umm, they did.



It was like the ugly stepchild of the Hummer.

Edit: Neptune beat me to it!

[This message has been edited by loafer87gt (edited 11-17-2008).]

OK. So did they build 2 of them ? Maybe they sold only in Africa and India....LOL. I never saw or heard of one in the US and we have a local dealer.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: The problem of this idea, if China or Russia applied the same policies. GM is the biggest seller in China, Russia and many places in Europe. GM has a growing market in the orient. I found it odd when I was in Shanghai to have a Buick Century pick me up as a taxi. The real oddity was it ran on compressed gas..no trunk for luggage as it had a big gas cylinder in the trunk. Outwardly it looked just like the Buick I had left in my driveway at home.

Agreed. Sparking a tariff war will not help any manufacturer, domestic or foriegn. Won't help consumers or the economy either.