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If GM goes under by pcwentworth
Started on: 11-14-2008 02:28 PM
Replies: 288
Last post by: maryjane on 12-02-2008 08:33 PM
GT86
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Report this Post11-18-2008 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


see - a nice perfectly acceptable answer.

see what the answer is? whatever anyone can get away with. we already know business owner's will pay as little as possible to the workers - otherwise unions would not have formed in the first place. just as it is OK for Rick Wagoner to walk up to GM and demand $5,000/hr - it is just as OK for the janitor to walk up and demand $50/hr. just as outragous.

you can gripe & cry about being jealous of people who do so little and recieve so much - but - sorry - life aint fair. nothing magic going on - just building cars. dont like it? start your own car building business. show em how smart you are.


But that's just it, we can demand whatever we want, but like everything else our services are only worth what someone else will pay. Why do doctors make more than cashiers? Because doctors have a skill set that takes a long time, a lot of dedication, and a lot of sacrifice to obtain. There aren't as many of them in the labor pool, hence they are worth more. On the other hand, pretty much anyone can learn to be a cashier in about an hour. There are many more of them in the labor pool so the job can be easily filled, hence a job as a cashier pays less.

The main problem as this relates to unions is that they impose arbitrarily high wages for many jobs that are easily filled. Whether we want to admit it or not, jobs with no real skills or education required don't deserve to be paid highly. (Don't confuse skills with training. Every job requires some amount of training). If a person wants to be paid more, they need to make themselves more valuable to an employer. Forcing employers to pay more than a job is worth raises the cost of the final product or service, and eventually can threaten the very existence of the business...cough GM cough... Also, by creating these artificially high paying jobs, much of the incentive to make yourself more valuable is taken away. Why spend the time and effort to go to school if you can make $40 an hour bolting in a seat?

Now, GM's problems are not solely due to high labor costs. The management has made horrible decisions, there is too much bloat at the mid to upper levels, and they have done their own part to drain the coffers with ridiculous salaries and bonuses. But we can't pretend the labor issues at GM haven't played a huge part.

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Report this Post11-18-2008 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:
But that's just it, we can demand whatever we want, but like everything else our services are only worth what someone else will pay. Why do doctors make more than cashiers? Because doctors have a skill set that takes a long time, a lot of dedication, and a lot of sacrifice to obtain. There aren't as many of them in the labor pool, hence they are worth more. On the other hand, pretty much anyone can learn to be a cashier in about an hour. There are many more of them in the labor pool so the job can be easily filled, hence a job as a cashier pays less.

The main problem as this relates to unions is that they impose arbitrarily high wages for many jobs that are easily filled. Whether we want to admit it or not, jobs with no real skills or education required don't deserve to be paid highly. (Don't confuse skills with training. Every job requires some amount of training). If a person wants to be paid more, they need to make themselves more valuable to an employer. Forcing employers to pay more than a job is worth raises the cost of the final product or service, and eventually can threaten the very existence of the business...cough GM cough... Also, by creating these artificially high paying jobs, much of the incentive to make yourself more valuable is taken away. Why spend the time and effort to go to school if you can make $40 an hour bolting in a seat?

Now, GM's problems are not solely due to high labor costs. The management has made horrible decisions, there is too much bloat at the mid to upper levels, and they have done their own part to drain the coffers with ridiculous salaries and bonuses. But we can't pretend the labor issues at GM haven't played a huge part.


yup. we all get that.
they build cars. GM builds cars. that is it.
you cant FORCE the employers to pay more. the employers caved in to their own greed.
there is nothing unreasonable about asking for $100 an hour to build a car when someone else is getting $5000 an hour to build a car. that is what they do: build cars. you can try and wrap all kinds of BS all around that - but in the end - GM builds cars.
the whole thing stinks from top to bottom. THEY ALL SUCK.
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Report this Post11-18-2008 05:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


yup. we all get that.
they build cars. GM builds cars. that is it.
you cant FORCE the employers to pay more. the employers caved in to their own greed.
there is nothing unreasonable about asking for $100 an hour to build a car when someone else is getting $5000 an hour to build a car. that is what they do: build cars. you can try and wrap all kinds of BS all around that - but in the end - GM builds cars.
the whole thing stinks from top to bottom. THEY ALL SUCK.


Not true, you can force employers to pay more. Minimum wage and collective bargaining are ways to do just that. Legally, once a union is in place an employer has no choice but to deal with it.

There is something unreasonable about asking $100 an hour to build a car. Just because a management type asks for $5000/hr doesn't make it reasonable for a labor type to ask for $100/hr. It's that attitude that got them to this point. It's ALL unreasonable. You say GM builds cars, and that's true. But if the entire structure doesn't pull its collective head out of its ass, they won't build 'em for much longer.

And yes, they all suck.
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Report this Post11-18-2008 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
Way I see it is that there both pros and cons to unions. I think they do have way to much power though. I think maybe they should have say in retirement programs, and handle individual employee-employer disputes. Things like unreasonable working hours, fired or suspended for unfounded reasons...stuff like that. Union should have no say in pay issues. Pay should be what the market will bear. I never thought it was right to pay someone like $25 an hour and a month vacation for popping on hubcaps. Maybe they should pay by the job the employees do. That way there would be a desire to move up. People installing engines should be paid more than the hubcap popper for example. Maybe the whole auto manufacturing thing needs to come crashing down to get things right.
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Report this Post11-18-2008 05:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
To all those who say these Autoworker jobs are easy to fill.

Have you worked at an Auto assembly plant on the line?

If not you have no idea just how hard it is.

 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:
There is something unreasonable about asking $100 an hour to build a car. Just because a management type asks for $5000/hr doesn't make it reasonable for a labor type to ask for $100/hr. It's that attitude that got them to this point. It's ALL unreasonable. You say GM builds cars, and that's true. But if the entire structure doesn't pull its collective head out of its ass, they won't build 'em for much longer.

And yes, they all suck.


Ever wonder why import plants are in the south, because the word union is a dirty word.

They build in depressed areas of the nation that will take any job at any wage.

Comparing their pay and a company that has been here for a hundred years is just, how does Ace put it? Oh ya

Apples to Oranges.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post11-18-2008 06:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

To all those who say these Autoworker jobs are easy to fill.

Have you worked at an Auto assembly plant on the line?

If not you have no idea just how hard it is.


Ever wonder why import plants are in the south, because the word union is a dirty word.

They build in depressed areas of the nation that will take any job at any wage.

Comparing their pay and a company that has been here for a hundred years is just, how does Ace put it? Oh ya

Apples to Oranges.

Steve



It may be hard work, but how hard is it to fill the job? Are there not usually hundreds, if not thousands waiting to get into a plant? There's a difference between a hard job, and a job where it's hard to find a qualified person.

And are you saying Detroit is not a depressed area? GM may have been around for a hundred years, but if they (management and UAW both) can't learn to adapt, they may not be around for another hundred days.

[This message has been edited by GT86 (edited 11-18-2008).]

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Report this Post11-18-2008 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

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Report this Post11-18-2008 06:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Same could be said for those supporting unions. Put them on a drilling rig floor and see how they like swingin tongs and pulling slips all day. You and Steve are welcome to give it a go anytime you want. Great pay, good bennies too---without the unions. btdt.
Worked assy lines for a fixture company for years too--no biggie. Pick up three 3/4"X 4' X 4' panels like I did on that cnc panel saw for 8 -10 hrs/day and see how long you last. Great pay. 401K, health benefits--no union. Ain't no big thing, and millions of us do that and more everyday. Quit trying to make like auto work is more than the rest of the world is capable of doing--it won't wash.
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Report this Post11-18-2008 07:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:


I would hazard a guess that most, if not all, of the people bashing unions here (which by the way are Constitutionally protected assemblies of like-minded people) wouldn't last a day in a union job. Their work ethic, what little they likely have, would evaporate in the face of line work. Heck, they would very likely wash out during training (it takes weeks, perhaps months, to fully train someone for basic line work).

It's always easy to look in from the outside and do that there Monday Morning Quarterbacking...

JazzMan


Come work for my company, you perform or you're out. Most of what we do is time-critical, and we can't afford people who don't pull their weight. We are non-union, but going against your theory most of the employees I supervise have been with us for years. We've had a few union types work for us over the years, but none have lasted long. Most all of them that gave a reason for quitting said they didn't like the pace of the work, and they didn't like being told that their work wasn't up to standards. I actually had one guy tell me that asking an employee to work faster would have been a grievance at his old (union) company.

I've worked side by side with unions most of my adult life (I'm in transportation), and by far they have been some of the most unmotivated, arrogant people I've met. And as many have told me over the years, they don't care because they can't be fired, unless they do something very drastic. I've seem employees with horrible attendance finally be fired after the literal two years of paperwork required to fire them, only to have the union take it to arbitration, get the guy's job back, get back pay, and once the guy was back on the job, I watched as he continued to call in 2 or 3 times a week. I've watched as they've told new employees to slow down, take it easy, you're making us look bad. I've watched as they go on their mandated breaks every two hours, regardless of work flow. Finishing a current batch of work would take 5 minutes, and would allow trucks and planes to be dispatched on time, but no, it's break time now. I've watched as they've struck for more money, even at times when their company was in dire financial straits. I saw a supervisor get a grievance filed for moving an empty piece of equipment out of the aisle, but hey, that was in violation of craft rules. The worst was when I watched as an entire crew of almost 40 people sit idle for two hours because the light switches were accidentally turned off. Because the lights and anything electrical were assigned to the electrician's craft, no one was allowed to turn the lights back on! They had to wait for an electrician to come from a different part of town to turn the lights on.

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Report this Post11-18-2008 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for htexans1Send a Private Message to htexans1Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Ever wonder why import plants are in the south...



Thats why Honda motor Company has a plant in Marysville, OH. since 1983. lol

[This message has been edited by htexans1 (edited 11-18-2008).]

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Report this Post11-18-2008 07:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:
Come work for my company, you perform or you're out. Most of what we do is time-critical, and we can't afford people who don't pull their weight.


Lets see 60 seconds to do your job, takes longer and you are in the next guys way.
This job you only have to put the doorpad and window crank on,
the next one you have the to put the doorpad on, route wires threw the door, and connect 3 switches.
Next one you have to put the doorpad on, route the wires threw the doorpad, connect 4 switches.

It is not just one screw or 5 lug nuts. Every job is different, everyday.

You get in the next guys way and he get in the next guys way and so on and so forth.

You have to be fast, smooth, know what is needed for each different job.

The only time you may get a break is when a rental car fleet comes threw. Then you might have 20 in a row, of the most disgusting colors and all the options. Meaning more work.

O venture to guess non of those union workers you worked with were autoworkers.

 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Same could be said for those supporting unions. Put them on a drilling rig floor and see how they like swingin tongs and pulling slips all day. You and Steve are welcome to give it a go anytime you want. Great pay, good bennies too---without the unions. btdt.
Worked assy lines for a fixture company for years too--no biggie. Pick up three 3/4"X 4' X 4' panels like I did on that cnc panel saw for 8 -10 hrs/day and see how long you last. Great pay. 401K, health benefits--no union. Ain't no big thing, and millions of us do that and more everyday. Quit trying to make like auto work is more than the rest of the world is capable of doing--it won't wash.


Sorry Don but I am no longer able, if I was I would be down working with Cliff. I go where the money is. I always have. Heavy industrial Construction for the last 15 years I worked. So I think your idea that it is to hard doesn’t hold water. But you do need quick hands, a sharp eye and a lot of the other things needed on you oil rigs.

Then again Cliff has said that he would welcome a union on his rig.

And an assembly line making fixtures is not an auto assembly line. They both move yes. That is where the similarity ends.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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Report this Post11-18-2008 07:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84BillClick Here to visit 84Bill's HomePageSend a Private Message to 84BillDirect Link to This Post
Hey just hire some monkeys.. I'm sure they can make a car or two... Well, maybe after they pound out Shakespeare.

I better post this or I'll be called out for giving "bad information"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...inite_monkey_theorem
Direct proof...

There is a straightforward proof of this theorem. If two events are statistically independent, (i.e. neither affects the outcome of the other), then the probability of both happening equals the product of the probabilities of each one happening independently. For example, if the chance of rain in Sydney on a particular day is 0.3 and the chance of an earthquake in San Francisco on that day is 0.008, then the chance of both happening on that same day is 0.3 × 0.008 = 0.0024.

Suppose the typewriter has 50 keys, and the word to be typed is "banana". Typing at random, the chance that the first letter typed is b is 1/50, and the chance that the second letter typed is a is also 1/50, and so on, because events are independent. So the chance of the first six letters matching banana is

(1/50) × (1/50) × (1/50) × (1/50) × (1/50) × (1/50) = (1/50)6.

For the same reason, the chance that the next 6 letters match banana is also (1/50)6, and so on.

From the above, the chance of not typing banana in a given block of 6 letters is 1 − (1/50)6. Because each block is typed independently, the chance Xn of not typing banana in any of the first n blocks of 6 letters is

X_n=\left(1-\frac{1}{50^6}\right)^n.

As n grows, Xn gets smaller. For an n of a million, Xn is roughly 0.9999 (i.e. the chance of not typing banana is roughly 99.99%), but for an n of 10 billion Xn is roughly 0.53 (i.e. the chance of not typing banana is roughly 53%) and for an n of 100 billion it is roughly 0.0017 (i.e. the chance of not typing banana is roughly 0.17%). As n approaches infinity, the probability Xn approaches zero; that is, by making n large enough, Xn can be made as small as one likes.[1][2]

The same argument shows why at least one of infinitely many monkeys will (almost surely) produce a text as quickly as it would be produced by a perfectly accurate human typist copying it from the original. In this case Xn = (1 − (1/50)6)n where Xn represents the probability that none of the first n monkeys types banana correctly on their first try. When we consider 100 billion monkeys, the probability falls to 0.17%, and as the number of monkeys n increases, the value of Xn—the probability of the monkeys failing to reproduce the given text—approaches zero arbitrarily closely. The limit, for n going to infinity, is zero.

[edit] Infinite strings

The two statements above can be stated more generally and compactly in terms of strings, which are sequences of characters chosen from some finite alphabet:

* Given an infinite string where each character is chosen uniformly at random, any given finite string almost surely occurs as a substring at some position (and indeed, infinitely many positions).
* Given an infinite sequence of infinite strings, where each character of each string is chosen uniformly at random, any given finite string almost surely occurs as a prefix of one of these strings (and indeed, as a prefix of infinitely many of these strings in the sequence).

Both follow easily from the second Borel-Cantelli lemma. For the second theorem, let Ek be the event that the kth string begins with the given text. Because this has some fixed nonzero probability p of occurring, the Ek are independent, and the below sum diverges,

\sum_{i=1}^\infty P(E_k) = \sum_{i=1}^\infty p = \infty,

the probability that infinitely many of the Ek occur is 1. The first theorem is shown similarly; one can divide the random string into nonoverlapping blocks matching the size of the desired text, and make Ek the event where the kth block equals the desired string.[3]

[edit] Probabilities

Ignoring punctuation, spacing, and capitalization, a monkey typing letters uniformly at random has a chance of one in 26 of correctly typing the first letter of Hamlet. It has a chance of one in 676 (26 × 26) of typing the first two letters. Because the probability shrinks exponentially, at 20 letters it already has only a chance of one in 2620 = 19,928,148,895,209,409,152,340,197,376 (almost 2 x 1028). In the case of the entire text of Hamlet, the probabilities are so vanishingly small they can barely be conceived in human terms. Say the text of Hamlet contains 130,000 letters (it is actually more, even stripped of punctuation), then there is a probability of one in 3.4 × 10183,946 to get the text right at the first trial. The average number of letters that needs to be typed until the text appears is also 3.4 × 10183,946.[4]

Even if the observable universe were filled with monkeys typing for all time, their total probability to produce a single instance of Hamlet would still be less than one in 10183,800. As Kittel and Kroemer put it, "The probability of Hamlet is therefore zero in any operational sense of an event…", and the statement that the monkeys must eventually succeed "gives a misleading conclusion about very, very large numbers." This is from their textbook on thermodynamics, the field whose statistical foundations motivated the first known expositions of typing monkeys.[5]

[edit] History

[edit] Statistical mechanics

In one of the forms in which probabilists now know this theorem, with its "dactylographic" [i.e., typewriting] monkeys (French: singes dactylographes; the French word singe covers both the monkeys and the apes), appeared in Émile Borel's 1913 article "Mécanique Statistique et Irréversibilité" (Statistical mechanics and irreversibility),[6] and in his book "Le Hasard" in 1914. His "monkeys" are not actual monkeys; rather, they are a metaphor for an imaginary way to produce a large, random sequence of letters. Borel said that if a million monkeys typed ten hours a day, it was extremely unlikely that their output would exactly equal all the books of the richest libraries of the world; and yet, in comparison, it was even more unlikely that the laws of statistical mechanics would ever be violated, even briefly.

The physicist Arthur Eddington drew on Borel's image further in The Nature of the Physical World (1928), writing:

If I let my fingers wander idly over the keys of a typewriter it might happen that my screed made an intelligible sentence. If an army of monkeys were strumming on typewriters they might write all the books in the British Museum. The chance of their doing so is decidedly more favourable than the chance of the molecules returning to one half of the vessel.
—[7]

These images invite the reader to consider the incredible improbability of a large but finite number of monkeys working for a large but finite amount of time producing a significant work, and compare this with the even greater improbability of certain physical events. Any physical process that is even less likely than such monkeys' success is effectively impossible, and it may safely be said that such a process will never happen.[5]

[edit] Origins and "The Total Library"

In a 1939 essay entitled "The Total Library", Argentine writer Jorge Luis Borges traced the infinite-monkey concept back to Aristotle's Metaphysics. Explaining the views of Leucippus, who held that the world arose through the random combination of atoms, Aristotle notes that the atoms themselves are homogeneous and their possible arrangements only differ in shape, position and ordering. In De Generatione et Corruptione (On Generation and Corruption), the Greek philosopher compares this to the way that a tragedy and a comedy consist of the same "atoms", i.e., alphabetic characters.[8] Three centuries later, Cicero's De natura deorum (On the Nature of the Gods) argued against the atomist worldview:

He who believes this may as well believe that if a great quantity of the one-and-twenty letters, composed either of gold or any other matter, were thrown upon the ground, they would fall into such order as legibly to form the Annals of Ennius. I doubt whether fortune could make a single verse of them.
—[9]

Borges follows the history of this argument through Blaise Pascal and Jonathan Swift, then observes that in his own time, the vocabulary had changed. By 1939, the idiom was "that a half-dozen monkeys provided with typewriters would, in a few eternities, produce all the books in the British Museum." (To which Borges adds, "Strictly speaking, one immortal monkey would suffice.") Borges then imagines the contents of the Total Library which this enterprise would produce if carried to its fullest extreme:

Everything would be in its blind volumes. Everything: the detailed history of the future, Aeschylus' The Egyptians, the exact number of times that the waters of the Ganges have reflected the flight of a falcon, the secret and true nature of Rome, the encyclopedia Novalis would have constructed, my dreams and half-dreams at dawn on August 14, 1934, the proof of Pierre Fermat's theorem, the unwritten chapters of Edwin Drood, those same chapters translated into the language spoken by the Garamantes, the paradoxes Berkeley invented concerning Time but didn't publish, Urizen's books of iron, the premature epiphanies of Stephen Dedalus, which would be meaningless before a cycle of a thousand years, the Gnostic Gospel of Basilides, the song the sirens sang, the complete catalog of the Library, the proof of the inaccuracy of that catalog. Everything: but for every sensible line or accurate fact there would be millions of meaningless cacophonies, verbal farragoes, and babblings. Everything: but all the generations of mankind could pass before the dizzying shelves—shelves that obliterate the day and on which chaos lies—ever reward them with a tolerable page.
—[10]

Borges's total library concept was the main theme of his widely-read 1941 short story "The Library of Babel", which describes an unimaginably vast library consisting of interlocking hexagonal chambers, together containing every possible volume that could be composed from the letters of the alphabet and some punctuation characters.

[edit] Applications and Criticisms

[edit] Evolution
Thomas Huxley is sometimes misattributed with proposing a variant of the theory in his debates with Samuel Wilberforce.

In his 1931 book The Mysterious Universe, Eddington's rival James Jeans attributed the monkey parable to a "Huxley", presumably meaning Thomas Henry Huxley. This attribution is incorrect.[11] Today, it is sometimes further reported that Huxley applied the example in a now-legendary debate over Charles Darwin's Origin of Species with the Anglican Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, held at a meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science at Oxford in June 30, 1860. This story suffers not only from a lack of evidence, but the fact that in 1860 the typewriter itself had yet to emerge.[12] Primates were still a sensitive topic for other reasons, and the Huxley-Wilberforce debate did include byplay about apes: the bishop asked whether Huxley was descended from an ape on his grandmother's or his grandfather's side, and Huxley responded something to the effect that he would rather be descended from an ape than from someone who argued as dishonestly as the bishop.[13]

Despite the original mix-up, monkey-and-typewriter arguments are now common in arguments over evolution. For example, Doug Powell argues as a Christian apologist that even if a monkey accidentally types the letters of Hamlet, it has failed to produce Hamlet because it lacked the intention to communicate. His parallel implication is that natural laws could not produce the information content in DNA.[14] A more common argument is represented by Reverend John F. MacArthur, who claims that the genetic mutations necessary to produce a tapeworm from an amoeba are as unlikely as a monkey typing Hamlet's soliloquy, and hence the odds against the evolution of all life are impossible to overcome.[15]

Evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins employs the typing monkey concept in his 1986 book The Blind Watchmaker to demonstrate the abilities of natural selection in producing biological complexity out of random mutations. In the simulation experiment he describes, Dawkins has his Weasel program produce the Hamlet phrase METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL by typing random phrases but constantly freezing those parts of the output which already match the goal. The point is that random string generation merely serves to furnish raw materials, while selection imparts the information.[16]

A different avenue for rejecting the analogy between evolution and an unconstrained monkey lies in the problem that the monkey types only one letter at a time, independently of the other letters. Hugh Petrie argues that a more sophisticated setup is required, in his case not for biological evolution but the evolution of ideas:

In order to get the proper analogy, we would have to equip the monkey with a more complex typewriter. It would have to include whole Elizabethan sentences and thoughts. It would have to include Elizabethan beliefs about human action patterns and the causes, Elizabethan morality and science, and linguistic patterns for expressing these. It would probably even have to include an account of the sorts of experiences which shaped Shakespeare's belief structure as a particular example of an Elizabethan. Then, perhaps, we might allow the monkey to play with such a typewriter and produce variants, but the impossibility of obtaining a Shakespearean play is no longer obvious. What is varied really does encapsulate a great deal of already-achieved knowledge.
—[17]

James W. Valentine, while admitting that the classic monkey's task is impossible, finds that there is a worthwhile analogy between written English and the metazoan genome in this other sense: both have "combinatorial, hierarchical structures" that greatly constrain the immense number of combinations at the alphabet level.[18]

[edit] Literary theory

R. G. Collingwood argued in 1938 that art cannot be produced by accident, and wrote as a sarcastic aside to his critics,

…some … have denied this proposition, pointing out that if a monkey played with a typewriter … he would produce … the complete text of Shakespeare. Any reader who has nothing to do can amuse himself by calculating how long it would take for the probability to be worth betting on. But the interest of the suggestion lies in the revelation of the mental state of a person who can identify the 'works' of Shakespeare with the series of letters printed on the pages of a book…
—[19]

Nelson Goodman took the contrary position, illustrating his point along with Catherine Elgin by the example of Borges' “Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote”,

What Menard wrote is simply another inscription of the text. Any of us can do the same, as can printing presses and photocopiers. Indeed, we are told, if infinitely many monkeys … one would eventually produce a replica of the text. That replica, we maintain, would be as much an instance of the work, Don Quixote, as Cervantes' manuscript, Menard's manuscript, and each copy of the book that ever has been or will be printed.
—[20]

In another writing, Goodman elaborates, "That the monkey may be supposed to have produced his copy randomly makes no difference. It is the same text, and it is open to all the same interpretations…." Gérard Genette dismisses Goodman's argument as begging the question.[21]

For Jorge J. E. Gracia, the question of the identity of texts leads to a different question, that of author. If a monkey is capable of typing Hamlet, despite having no intention of meaning and therefore disqualifying itself as an author, then it appears that texts do not require authors. Possible solutions include saying that whoever finds the text and identifies it as Hamlet is the author; or that Shakespeare is the author, the monkey his agent, and the finder merely a user of the text. These solutions have their own difficulties, in that the text appears to have a meaning separate from the other agents: what if the monkey operates before Shakespeare is born, or if Shakespeare is never born, or if no one ever finds the monkey's typescript?[22]

[edit] Random number generation

The theorem concerns a thought experiment which cannot be fully carried out in practice, since it is predicted to require prohibitive amounts of time and resources. Nonetheless, it has inspired efforts in finite random text generation.

One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed, “VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t . . ." The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[23]

A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulates a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters:

RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d…

Due to processing power limitations, the program uses a probabilistic model (by using a random number generator or RNG) instead of actually generating random text and comparing it to Shakespeare. When the simulator "detects a match" (that is, the RNG generates a certain value or a value within a certain range), the simulator simulates the match by generating matched text.[24]

Questions about the statistics describing how often an ideal monkey should type certain strings can motivate practical tests for random number generators as well; these range from the simple to the "quite sophisticated". Computer science professors George Marsaglia and Arif Zaman report that they used to call such tests "overlapping m-tuple tests" in lecture, since they concern overlapping m-tuples of successive elements in a random sequence. But they found that calling them "monkey tests" helped to motivate the idea with students. They published a report on the class of tests and their results for various RNGs in 1993.[25]

[edit] Real monkeys

Primate behaviorists Cheney and Seyfarth remark that real monkeys would indeed have to rely on chance to have any hope of producing Romeo and Juliet. Unlike apes and particularly chimpanzees, the evidence suggests that monkeys lack a theory of mind and are unable to differentiate between their own and others' knowledge, emotions, and beliefs. Even if a monkey could learn to write a play and describe the characters' behavior, it could not reveal the characters' minds and so build an ironic tragedy.[26]

In 2003, lecturers and students from the University of Plymouth MediaLab Arts course used a £2,000 grant from the Arts Council to study the literary output of real monkeys. They left a computer keyboard in the enclosure of six Celebes Crested Macaques in Paignton Zoo in Devon in England for a month, with a radio link to broadcast the results on a website. One researcher, Mike Phillips, defended the expenditure as being cheaper than reality TV and still "very stimulating and fascinating viewing".[27]

Not only did the monkeys produce nothing but five pages[28] consisting largely of the letter S, the lead male began by bashing the keyboard with a stone, and the monkeys continued by urinating and defecating on it. The zoo's scientific officer remarked that the experiment had "little scientific value, except to show that the 'infinite monkey' theory is flawed". Phillips said that the artist-funded project was primarily performance art, and they had learned "an awful lot" from it. He concluded that monkeys "are not random generators. They're more complex than that. … They were quite interested in the screen, and they saw that when they typed a letter, something happened. There was a level of intention there."[27][29]

[edit] Popular culture

Main article: Infinite monkey theorem in popular culture

The infinite monkey theorem and its associated imagery is considered a popular and proverbial illustration of the mathematics of probability, widely known to the general public because of its transmission through popular culture rather than because of its transmission via the classroom.[30]

This theorem was mentioned in part (and worded differently) and used as a joke in the book "A Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy" by Douglas Adams. The enduring, widespread and popular nature of the knowledge of the theorem was noted in the introduction to a 2001 paper, "Monkeys, Typewriters and Networks — the Internet in the Light of the Theory of Accidental Excellence" (Hoffmann and Hofmann).[31] In 2002, a Washington Post article said: "Plenty of people have had fun with the famous notion that an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite amount of time could eventually write the works of Shakespeare."[32] In 2003, the previously mentioned Arts Council funded experiment involving real monkeys and a computer keyboard received widespread press coverage.[33] In 2007, the theorem was listed by Wired magazine in a list of eight classic thought experiments.[34]

[edit] Notes and references

1. ^ This shows that the probability of typing "banana" in one of the predefined non-overlapping blocks of six letters tends to 1. In addition the word may appear across two blocks, so the estimate given is conservative.
2. ^ Isaac, Richard E. (1995). The Pleasures of Probability. Springer, 48–50. ISBN 038794415X. Isaac generalizes this argument immediately to variable text and alphabet size; the common main conclusion is on p.50.
3. ^ The first theorem is proven by a similar if more indirect route in Gut, Allan (2005). Probability: A Graduate Course. Springer, 97–100. ISBN 0387228330.
4. ^ For any required string of 130,000 letters from the set a-z, the average number of letters that needs to be typed until the string appears is (rounded) 3.4 × 10183,946, except in the case that all letters of the required string are equal, in which case the value is about 4% more, 3.6 × 10183,946. In that case failure to have the correct string starting from a particular position reduces with about 4% the probability of a correct string starting from the next position (i.e., for overlapping positions the events of having the correct string are not independent; in this case there is a positive correlation between the two successes, so the chance of success after a failure is smaller than the chance of success in general).
5. ^ a b Kittel, Charles and Herbert Kroemer (1980). Thermal Physics (2nd ed.). W. H. Freeman Company, 53. ISBN 0-7167-1088-9.
6. ^ Émile Borel (1913). "Mécanique Statistique et Irréversibilité". J. Phys. 5e série 3: 189–196.
7. ^ Arthur Eddington (1928). The Nature of the Physical World: The Gifford Lectures. New York: Macmillan, 72. ISBN 0-8414-3885-4.
8. ^ Aristotle, De Generatione et Corruptione, 315b14.
9. ^ Marcus Tullius Cicero, De natura deorum, 2.37. Translation from Cicero's Tusculan Disputations; Also, Treatises On The Nature Of The Gods, And On The Commonwealth, C. D. Yonge, principal translator, New York, Harper & Brothers Publishers, Franklin Square. (1877). Downloadable text.
10. ^ Borges, Jorge Luis. "La biblioteca total" (The Total Library), Sur No. 59, August 1939. Trans. by Eliot Weinberger. In Selected Non-Fictions (Penguin: 1999), ISBN 0-670-84947-2.
11. ^ Padmanabhan, Thanu (2005). "The dark side of astronomy". Nature 435: 20–21. doi:10.1038/435020a. Platt, Suzy; Library of Congress Congressional Research Service (1993). Respectfully quoted: a dictionary of quotations. Barnes & Noble, 388–389. ISBN 0880297689.
12. ^ Rescher, Nicholas (2006). Studies in the Philosophy of Science. ontos verlag, 103. ISBN 3938793201.
13. ^ Lucas, J. R. (June 1979). "Wilberforce and Huxley: A Legendary Encounter". The Historical Journal 22 (2): 313–330. Also available at [1], Retrieved on 2007-03-07
14. ^ Powell, Doug (2006). Holman Quicksource Guide to Christian Apologetics. Broadman & Holman, 60, 63. ISBN 080549460X.
15. ^ MacArthur, John (2003). Think Biblically!: Recovering a Christian Worldview. Crossway Books, 78–79. ISBN 1581344120.
16. ^ Dawkins, Richard (1986). The Blind Watchmaker. Oxford UP.
17. ^ As quoted in Blachowicz, James (1998). Of Two Minds: Nature of Inquiry. SUNY Press, 109. ISBN 0791436411.
18. ^ Valentine, James (2004). On the Origin of Phyla. University of Chicago Press, 77–80. ISBN 0226845486.
19. ^ p.126 of The Principles of Art, as summarized and quoted by Sclafani, Richard J. (1975). "The logical primitiveness of the concept of a work of art". British Journal of Aesthetics 15 (1): 14. doi:10.1093/bjaesthetics/15.1.14.
20. ^ John, Eileen and Dominic Lopes, editors (2004). The Philosophy of Literature: Contemporary and Classic Readings: An Anthology. Blackwell, 96. ISBN 1-4051-1208-5.
21. ^ Genette, Gérard (1997). The Work of Art: Immanence and Transcendence. Cornell UP. ISBN 0801482720.
22. ^ Gracia, Jorge (1996). Texts: Ontological Status, Identity, Author, Audience. SUNY Press, 1–2, 122–125. ISBN 0-7914-2901-6.
23. ^ [2] Acocella, Joan, "The Typing Life: How writers used to write", The New Yorker, April 9, 2007, a review of The Iron Whim: A Fragmented History of Typewriting (Cornell) 2007, by Darren Wershler-Henry
24. ^ "The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator". Retrieved on 2006-06-13. Link inactive as of 2007-02-02.
25. ^ Marsaglia, George and Arif Zaman (1993). "Monkey Tests for Random Number Generators" ([dead link] – Scholar search). Computers & Mathematics with Applications 9: 1–10. doi:10.1016/0898-1221(93)90001-C, http://www.jstatsoft.org/v14/i13/monkey.pdf.
26. ^ Cheney, Dorothy L. and Robert M. Seyfarth (1992). How Monkeys See the World: Inside the Mind of Another Species. University of Chicago Press, 253–255. ISBN 0-226-10246-7.
27. ^ a b "No words to describe monkeys' play", BBC News (2003-05-09). Retrieved on 5 February 2007.
28. ^ "Notes Towards the Complete Works of Shakespeare" (PDF). vivaria.net (2002). Retrieved on 2006-06-13.
29. ^ Associated Press (2003-05-09). "Monkeys Don't Write Shakespeare", Wired News. Retrieved on 2 March 2007.
30. ^ Examples of the theorem being referred to as proverbial include: Why Creativity Is Not like the Proverbial Typing Monkey. Jonathan W. Schooler, Sonya Dougal, Psychological Inquiry, Vol. 10, No. 4 (1999); and The Case of the Midwife Toad (Arthur Koestler, New York, 1972, page 30): "Neo-Darwinism does indeed carry the nineteenth-century brand of materialism to its extreme limits—to the proverbial monkey at the typewriter, hitting by pure chance on the proper keys to produce a Shakespeare sonnet." The latter is sourced from Parable of the Monkeys, a collection of historical references to the theorem in various formats.
31. ^ Monkeys, Typewriters and Networks, Ute Hoffmann & Jeanette Hofmann, Wissenschaftszentrum Berlin für Sozialforschung gGmbH (WZB), 2001.
32. ^ "Hello? This is Bob", Ken Ringle, Washington Post, 28 October 2002, page C01.
33. ^ Notes Towards the Complete Works of Shakespeare — some press clippings.
34. ^ The Best Thought Experiments: Schrödinger's Cat, Borel's Monkeys, Greta Lorge, Wired Magazine: Issue 15.06, May 2007.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 11-18-2008).]

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Report this Post11-18-2008 08:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

Lets see 60 seconds to do your job, takes longer and you are in the next guys way.
This job you only have to put the doorpad and window crank on,
the next one you have the to put the doorpad on, route wires threw the door, and connect 3 switches.
Next one you have to put the doorpad on, route the wires threw the doorpad, connect 4 switches.

It is not just one screw or 5 lug nuts. Every job is different, everyday.

You get in the next guys way and he get in the next guys way and so on and so forth.

You have to be fast, smooth, know what is needed for each different job.

The only time you may get a break is when a rental car fleet comes threw. Then you might have 20 in a row, of the most disgusting colors and all the options. Meaning more work.

O venture to guess non of those union workers you worked with were autoworkers


Steve



I didn't say it was easy, many jobs are quite demanding. Many are time-critical.

But again, how hard is it to fill an assembly line position? Honest question, are there normally all sorts of people waiting to get on with a car company? How big is the potential labor pool?
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quote
Originally posted by GT86:


I didn't say it was easy, many jobs are quite demanding. Many are time-critical.

But again, how hard is it to fill an assembly line position? Honest question, are there normally all sorts of people waiting to get on with a car company? How big is the potential labor pool?


And all sorts of people fail, or just can’t keep up, or screw up, it is not quite as simple as some make out.
We had one job right after my repair station that went threw 7 college kids in 7 days.
You have to know all the codes, because nothing is the same and you have to read those and check for any other options or things that you may have to do.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


And all sorts of people fail, or just can’t keep up, or screw up, it is not quite as simple as some make out.
We had one job right after my repair station that went threw 7 college kids in 7 days.
You have to know all the codes, because nothing is the same and you have to read those and check for any other options or things that you may have to do.




Modern lines use hand scanners and bar codes.
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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


And all sorts of people fail, or just can’t keep up, or screw up, it is not quite as simple as some make out.
We had one job right after my repair station that went threw 7 college kids in 7 days.
You have to know all the codes, because nothing is the same and you have to read those and check for any other options or things that you may have to do.




There are always going to be those who can't hack it.

But was it hard to find replacements? Did the company have to search far and wide for people willing to apply? Or was there lengthy waiting list of some kind?

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Report this Post11-18-2008 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84fiero123Send a Private Message to 84fiero123Direct Link to This Post
What difference did that make.

The guy was out for a 2 week vacation, we got people in for the summer and we spent half the time keeping a trainer on with these people losing a valuable man .


All our utility people could do the job but this was how the company saved money. We agreed to it so that left more utility people available for other jobs, more difficult job, some easier but most even harder to learn.

Having an available labor pool willing and capable is not easy to find.

------------------
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Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

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quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:


Sorry Don but I am no longer able, if I was I would be down working with Cliff. I go where the money is. I always have. Heavy industrial Construction for the last 15 years I worked. So I think your idea that it is to hard doesn’t hold water. But you do need quick hands, a sharp eye and a lot of the other things needed on you oil rigs.

Then again Cliff has said that he would welcome a union on his rig.

And an assembly line making fixtures is not an auto assembly line. They both move yes. That is where the similarity ends.

Steve



I remember well, when the union attempted to unionize drilling rigs in S. Louisiana. About 1978. The union organizer was shot dead on the board road while attempting to stop crews as they came in for work. They never returned. Enough of that tho--ancient history.

Our assy lines were just like yours Steve, but you are so biased, yopu won't admit it. Fast & furious, no room for screwups or slackers. You hesitate, the guy behind you will push you and whatever you are trying to do out of the way and we continued on without them. One misassembled part can scrap the entire fixture. Completed units usually weighed thousands of pounds, some 20 ft long, 12 ft high. I've seen myself dripping wet from sweat at the end of the day, every muscle sore. Get up and do it again the next morning. Maybe the same fixture--maybe a totally different fixture. You need to expand your horizons, open your mind a bit to what the rest of the world does--it's not so different. Look at it this way Steve. I did it--anyone can do it. You did it--anyone can do it. We just aren't that special. We really aren't. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. Any half way intelligent half way motivated person can do any job. It's not brain surgey and it's not rocket science.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-18-2008).]

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maryjane

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A Dem I can live with--for now.

For Democrat Bobby Bright, the mayor of Montgomery, the themes in his first day at the Capitol as a member-elect were no new taxes and no bailouts.

“I am not in favor of any tax increase. The people of this nation are taxed enough,” he said. “Right now, the economy is in such bad shape, we don’t need to start hitting our average citizens — I don’t care what level they are.”

Bright won the 2nd Congressional District, which had been represented by retiring Republican Terry Everett.

Hyundai at home in Alabama
The district is home to a Hyundai manufacturing plant and a number of supplier firms. Just across the state line in Georgia will be a new Kia plant where many of his constituents will find jobs. There are 6,500 auto and auto-related jobs in his district.

Bright and his constituents take a dim view of the proposed taxpayer bailout of Hyundai’s competitors — General Motors, Chrysler, and Ford — which Pelosi and other Democratic leaders have pushed.

“I don’t look favorably on it at all,” he said. “Generally I came up the hard way and no one ever bailed me out. I always had to stand on my own two feet.” He also opposed the bailout of financial firms that Congress enacted last month.

Asked about Obama and his mandate, Bright noted that “he got 39 percent in Alabama. He’s got a lot of work to do to gain the support and confidence of the people of district 2. I’m not saying he can’t do that. I think he can.”


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Report this Post11-18-2008 08:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:

What difference did that make.

The guy was out for a 2 week vacation, we got people in for the summer and we spent half the time keeping a trainer on with these people losing a valuable man .


All our utility people could do the job but this was how the company saved money. We agreed to it so that left more utility people available for other jobs, more difficult job, some easier but most even harder to learn.

Having an available labor pool willing and capable is not easy to find.



The difference is that if there is a large labor pool available, wages will be lower. Supply and demand.
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quote
Originally posted by GT86:


The difference is that if there is a large labor pool available, wages will be lower. Supply and demand.

Not with most union jobs.
Doesn't matter how many people are wanting to get hired on.
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Report this Post11-18-2008 09:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
Here's a little of what went on today:
And Robert Nardelli, CEO of Chrysler LLC, told the panel the bailout would be "the least costly alternative" when compared with damage from bankruptcy.

Sympathy for the industry was sparse, with bailout fatigue dominating Capitol Hill. Lawmakers bristled with pent-up criticism of the auto industry, and questioned whether a stopgap loan would really cure what ails the companies.

Banking Committee Chairman Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., told the leaders of GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co. that the industry was "seeking treatments for wounds that I believe to a large extent were self-inflicted."

Still, he said, "At a time like this, when our economic future is so tenuous, we must do all we can to ensure stability."

Sen. Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., complained that the larger financial crisis "is not the only reason why the domestic auto industry is in trouble."

He cited "inefficient production" and "costly labor agreements" that put the U.S. automakers at a disadvantage to foreign companies.


Nothing will happen this month, and not much next month unless congress holds a special session to address the issue. UAW rep is to meet later to express their views to congress. Maybe tonite. It is not expected by most to be pretty or go well.

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quote
Originally posted by maryjane:

Not with most union jobs.
Doesn't matter how many people are wanting to get hired on.


Well, that was my point
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Report this Post11-19-2008 06:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AusFieroClick Here to visit AusFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to AusFieroDirect Link to This Post
How about we just let Asia take over the auto industry totally. Then our countries in the west can be industry free. Our nice clean environments will make great places to put holiday resorts and we can all charge the now well off Asian workers exhorbant fees to visit our countries as tourists. Seems to work that way already in Hawaii and the north of Australia. Lets adapt and get rich
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Report this Post11-19-2008 06:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AusFiero:

How about we just let Asia take over the auto industry totally. Then our countries in the west can be industry free. Our nice clean environments will make great places to put holiday resorts and we can all charge the now well off Asian workers exhorbant fees to visit our countries as tourists. Seems to work that way already in Hawaii and the north of Australia. Lets adapt and get rich


Well, they already are for the most part. If we remain wedded to an antiquated labor/management structure, I don't see how that will change.

Honda and Toyota already produce cars here in the States, and they don't pay their workers pennies per hour to do so. In fact, job satisfaction seems quite high at these plants from what I've read. And while the economic problems have hit these makers too, they're not in the dire straits the Big 3 are.
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Report this Post11-19-2008 09:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
looks like many of you are trying to apply small shop mentality to a auto asembly plant.
this is apples to vegetables.
you are looking at a entire city worth of people. there is not only the actual workers - but an entire support system.

bah - never mind - its just jealousy anyways. many people make much more for doing much less. maybe you should wonder how & why this affects you? and try and fix THAT. could it be because of g'ment bailouts? well - now. how about we fix it so these are not necessary? not allow corporations to get to the point of affecting national welfare & security.
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Report this Post11-19-2008 10:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:
Honda and Toyota already produce cars here in the States, and they don't pay their workers pennies per hour to do so. In fact, job satisfaction seems quite high at these plants from what I've read. And while the economic problems have hit these makers too, they're not in the dire straits the Big 3 are.

My son in law works for the new Toyota Tundra plant in San Antonio. A non union shop. He makes good bank. Due to the economic market and the slagging sales of full sized trucks, Toyota shut down it's production line about three months ago. Just this month Toyota plant ends 3-month hiatus. Not one employee was laid off. This was after Toyota third-quarter profit plunges 69%.
 
quote
from 1st linky
Henry and other Toyota team members spent the past three months on the payroll, training and working to strengthen manufacturing processes. At the end of the period, the factory had implemented 1,000 kaizens — or process improvements — designed to improve safety, efficiency and quality.

Not only did they improve their chances at success, they cleaned up Mitchell Lake. They also...... Some idled workers fromToyota Motor Corp. are winding up their second week cleaning city parks, removing graffiti, painting benches and fixing fences instead of building Tundras. Although they were volunteers, they were paid in full by Toyota.
 
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
Then again Cliff has said that he would welcome a union on his rig.

I have said that and I do believe that it is needed. I also believe that many Unions are outdated. They have come to be just as greedy and.....can't find the word I want. Mismanaged is not the one I want although it also applies. Lacking in foresight (not one but three words) is not quite what I was looking for but, it applies also. Oh well, on to my point (if I have one).
The ideal of unionizing, is a good idea. A manufacturer may sell a product but so does an employee. His labor and his skills, not to mention his productivity, loyalty, intelligence, and initiative among other things is his product. Not having any union experience, I think that a most unions fail in not recognizing this. By demanding that this worker gets what that worker gets.
This is not a good idea speaking of my thought about how the unions failed. I know nothing.
I am not stupid though, .
 
quote
Originally posted by maryjane:
I remember well, when the union attempted to unionize drilling rigs in S. Louisiana. About 1978. The union organizer was shot dead on the board road while attempting to stop crews as they came in for work. They never returned. Enough of that tho--ancient history.

Crazy ? Yeah, I can admit to that, . I would like to know more about that maryjane (using user names so others can relate). I have a vision.

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rogergarrison
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Report this Post11-19-2008 12:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
Ill give you some of the jobs are harder. But most are pretty menial. Take putting on wheels. Ive seen them done at a plant. The car comes up to you on its track, a robot takes one wheel and tire assembly and places it correctly over the studs. Then you reach up and pull down the 'wrench' that is preloaded with all 5 lugs, hold it there and it spins all 5 down similtaniously to the set torgue. Then it moves off down the line........next.......Sorry but you dont need a degree to do that, and shouldnt be getting $40 @ hour (pay and benefits) to do that. JMO.
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cliffw
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Report this Post11-19-2008 02:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cliffwSend a Private Message to cliffwDirect Link to This Post
Reports are....that the executives that came to Capital Hill begging for money, flew in on private Lear jets.
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LXXXVIIIGTPCAR
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Report this Post11-19-2008 04:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LXXXVIIIGTPCARSend a Private Message to LXXXVIIIGTPCARDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:


Well, they already are for the most part. If we remain wedded to an antiquated labor/management structure, I don't see how that will change.

Honda and Toyota already produce cars here in the States, and they don't pay their workers pennies per hour to do so. In fact, job satisfaction seems quite high at these plants from what I've read. And while the economic problems have hit these makers too, they're not in the dire straits the Big 3 are.


Many of these 'import' companies have research and design centers in the states, too. For example, Honda has final assembly factories in 3 states (Ohio, Alabama, Indiana) and 1 province (Ontario). Tier 1/Tier 2 suppliers are regional where possible, with more coming on board all the time. In addition, they have over 10 regional R&D facilities throughout the US to support the development of North American products developed at their main Ohio and LA R&D facilities. Many of the prototype shops used are more than happy for the business because orders from the big 3 are drying up. Toyota has a similar R&D facility in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Mitsubishi, Porsche, and Lotus have smaller R&D facilities in Michigan as well. The auto business is definitely global!

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GT86
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Report this Post11-19-2008 05:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GT86Send a Private Message to GT86Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by LXXXVIIIGTPCAR:


Many of these 'import' companies have research and design centers in the states, too. For example, Honda has final assembly factories in 3 states (Ohio, Alabama, Indiana) and 1 province (Ontario). Tier 1/Tier 2 suppliers are regional where possible, with more coming on board all the time. In addition, they have over 10 regional R&D facilities throughout the US to support the development of North American products developed at their main Ohio and LA R&D facilities. Many of the prototype shops used are more than happy for the business because orders from the big 3 are drying up. Toyota has a similar R&D facility in Ann Arbor, Michigan. Mitsubishi, Porsche, and Lotus have smaller R&D facilities in Michigan as well. The auto business is definitely global!



Goes back to an earlier ponit, namely that the lines between a "domestic" and an "import" are blurring. When you've got so-called domestics being assembled outside the U.S. and so many imports being assembled inside, well it's hard to say what is what. It's true that the imports home offices are out of country, and the profits go back there. But as you mentioned, some of those profits are being invested and spent here, and jobs are being created here.

Toyota, Honda and others have learned how to be successful building cars here. They do it with American workers, workers who by most every account make a good wage and are happy with their jobs. These companies make products that rate very highly on customer satisfaction ratings, and have earned many repeat customers and have continually increased their market share.

So...it is possible to make quality cars here, at a profit, and not pay your workers minimum wage (as some union backers would have us believe). The question then, is why can't GM, Ford and Chrysler do the same?
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Report this Post11-19-2008 06:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ckfieroSend a Private Message to ckfieroDirect Link to This Post
Of course, toyota, honda, and others are also bringing in some of these cars claimed to be "made in the USA" from overseas as well. Just because you buy a model they make in the southern USA, doesnt mean your actual vehicle of that model was made in the USA... Interesting backlog

http://www.iht.com/articles...business/19ports.php
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Report this Post11-19-2008 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rogergarrisonSend a Private Message to rogergarrisonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by cliffw:

Reports are....that the executives that came to Capital Hill begging for money, flew in on private Lear jets.


And according to NBC evening news, they were sent packing with briefcases empty, most likely in the same private jets.

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Report this Post11-19-2008 08:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Old LarSend a Private Message to Old LarDirect Link to This Post
Listening to the GM CEO testifying sounded like he did not have a clue on how much money GM needed or for how long or how the money would be used, but just needed the money. The CEO and board of all three need to be removed prior to receiving a dime. I still like chapter 11 for GM, then big changes can start.
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Report this Post11-19-2008 08:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for maryjaneSend a Private Message to maryjaneDirect Link to This Post
They also said they have no plans in place whatsoever for restructuring, which turned a lot of congress off. Many in congress--or at least more than before--think that the big 3 will be right back in a few months begging for more.
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LXXXVIIIGTPCAR
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Report this Post11-19-2008 09:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for LXXXVIIIGTPCARSend a Private Message to LXXXVIIIGTPCARDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by GT86:


Goes back to an earlier ponit, namely that the lines between a "domestic" and an "import" are blurring. When you've got so-called domestics being assembled outside the U.S. and so many imports being assembled inside, well it's hard to say what is what. It's true that the imports home offices are out of country, and the profits go back there. But as you mentioned, some of those profits are being invested and spent here, and jobs are being created here.

Toyota, Honda and others have learned how to be successful building cars here. They do it with American workers, workers who by most every account make a good wage and are happy with their jobs. These companies make products that rate very highly on customer satisfaction ratings, and have earned many repeat customers and have continually increased their market share.

So...it is possible to make quality cars here, at a profit, and not pay your workers minimum wage (as some union backers would have us believe). The question then, is why can't GM, Ford and Chrysler do the same?


Strictly from a corporate principal standpoint, the problem I see with the Big 3 is that there is no consistency. Often times new leadership, brought in from other auto companies or from outside the industry altogether in an attempt to 'shake things up', provide no stability for anyone in the corporation. They seem to have no overall objective or vision that remains in place dispite a change in leadership. The corporate methods, and ultimately the product created from them, should not be a reflection of whomever is at the helm that particular week/month/year. The company, the BRAND should be bigger than any one individual's personality and/or ego. The Hondas/Toyotas of the world hire people to the top spots from within the company, and in the case of Honda, they're ALWAYS engineers. This means there will always be consistency in how the company and it's brands are managed, and how day to day operations are carried out. The Big 3 should be able to do the same.

I'm just tired of hearing about how the new GM/Ford/Chrysler product is SO MUCH better now. I remember hearing this when I first became interested in cars as a teenager. Fiero was going to compete with the imports 'head-on'. Chrysler was going to beat the imports at their own game. The new Fords match the best from Japan... Guess what? The competition isn't standing still. The latest Big 3 fad is to quote JD Power 3~6 month initial customer satisfaction surveys. What?! Talk to those buyers after 3~6 YEARS.

I love my GT, and the Big 3 make some interesting 'halo' cars that I would be proud to own, but my bread-and-butter/grocery-getter/gotta-get-to-work cars may NEVER be from a Big 3 company.

 
quote
Originally posted by ckfiero:

Of course, toyota, honda, and others are also bringing in some of these cars claimed to be "made in the USA" from overseas as well. Just because you buy a model they make in the southern USA, doesnt mean your actual vehicle of that model was made in the USA... Interesting backlog

http://www.iht.com/articles...business/19ports.php


If it really matters to a buyer, they must check the VIN. It will not lie.
http://www.autohausaz.com/h...ication_numbers.html

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AusFiero
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Report this Post11-19-2008 11:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AusFieroClick Here to visit AusFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to AusFieroDirect Link to This Post
Why isn't GM selling off Saab and Daewoo about now?
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Fastback 86
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Report this Post11-19-2008 11:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback 86Send a Private Message to Fastback 86Direct Link to This Post
Who's going to buy them? This economic downturn is global, even the few companies that have money to buy other companies right now aren't about to part with it. They want to hang on to it in case this thing drags out longer than expected.
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Report this Post11-20-2008 12:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ckfieroSend a Private Message to ckfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by AusFiero:

Why isn't GM selling off Saab and Daewoo about now?


They did divest about 9% ownership in one of the other brands, maybe Izuzu? cant recall which. Hard to find a buyer when most of the world is tanking right about now, it is NOT purely a US problem
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Report this Post11-20-2008 01:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for AusFieroClick Here to visit AusFiero's HomePageSend a Private Message to AusFieroDirect Link to This Post
Maybe it is time for GMH to do a takeover bid on the parent GM. Australia is in pretty good shape compared to most at the moment apparently. We have been running a budget surplus for a number of years which has helped with this downturn. Now if only the media would shut up so people spend again.
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