quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Loafer do you have a problem with someone collecting an earned benefit? GM employees that are getting retirement earned that. They worked for a Minimum of 10 years under a contract that gave them a retirement. They had to work 30 years to get a full retirement. Most of those on retirement right now have been employed at GM since before you were born most likely. They put in their time, most over 25 years. Is it wrong ? They earned it. How long have you been working? How long have you been working for one company? Do you have a contract with your employer? Steve

Been working for 16 years now. Worked for an architectural firm for the first four years, then finished off my schooling and started my own business. Don't have a contract with my employer, because I am my employer. My retirement is whatever I save myself. If work slows down or times get tough, I don't go to the government for a bailout, I put in extra hours and do whatever is necessary to remedy the situation. If things aren't going the way I like, there is only one person to blame and that is myself. It's a little things called personal responsibility, something the average wrench turner at GM is clueless about. I'm sorry Steve, I know you and I disagree about unions, but I have had too many friends who have union jobs tell me what a joke employment is at a unionized workplace. They say that once you are done your probationary period, you can basically do sweet f'all and not have to worry about the security of your job. They will literally not show at work for days at a time, taking unneeded sick days and their seniors will tell them not to worry as they are protected by the union. It's a damn farce. As they all say, the creed around the workplace is do the absolutely bare minimum and work with your union leader to try and set the lowest standards possible. If things are similar in the Big 3, no wonder they are in the situation they are.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Been working for 16 years now. Worked for an architectural firm for the first four years, then finished off my schooling and started my own business. Don't have a contract with my employer, because I am my employer. My retirement is whatever I save myself. If work slows down or times get tough, I don't go to the government for a bailout, I put in extra hours and do whatever is necessary to remedy the situation. If things aren't going the way I like, there is only one person to blame and that is myself. It's a little things called personal responsibility, something the average wrench turner at GM is clueless about. I'm sorry Steve, I know you and I disagree about unions, but I have had too many friends who have union jobs tell me what a joke employment is at a unionized workplace. They say that once you are done your probationary period, you can basically do sweet f'all and not have to worry about the security of your job. They will literally not show at work for days at a time, taking unneeded sick days and their seniors will tell them not to worry as they are protected by the union. It's a damn farce. As they all say, the creed around the workplace is do the absolutely bare minimum and work with your union leader to try and set the lowest standards possible. If things are similar in the Big 3, no wonder they are in the situation they are.

wah wah wah
so, how is it that these cars get made? EVERYONE at the big three is lazy & overpaid. it is NOT just the UAW workers. it is EVERYONE. the UAW workers are the LOWEST paid people - AND - they are the ones who actually build the product the company produces.

Topic: If GM goes under

bah - we dont need factories anymore - we are digital now

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

quote Originally posted by cliffw: It is not funny to me that they are asking for money and offering no plan about how that money will work.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: 'Cept, they left a few facts out. Such as......how they plan to spend the bailout money, how it will work. How it even has a chance of working since........

Heard on the radio today (just now, top of the hour news break) ......"The latest, from ABC News......blah blah bailout. Republicans are against it. Democrats say taxpayers will be protected, blah blah blah ......"
'Cept here again, no info on how taxpayers will be protected.
I can see the need for help. I do not mind helping. I will not do it blindly though. How 'bout they put up some of their assets as collateral. Such as the Fiero rights and all needed to bring it back. Including the 1990 model. How 'bout the Camaro, the Firebird.
If GM thinks the bailout will work, what do they have to lose ?

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: loafer87gt just wants to drive cars and fly in planes made by $9.50/hour workers with no benefits, or at least, the kind of workers that you can get for that. Imagine the quality of planes and cars made by companies who were competing with Whataburger for employees. Hey, I know just the place for loafer87gt: China! Their workers make even less than that and are truly disposable, being discarded when injured on the job like a used sandwich wrapper. I'm all for loafer87gt getting to achieve his dream. Really, I am. JazzMan

Should workers be paid according to what the job is worth, or should they be paid an arbitrary wage that is set by collective bargaining? The reality is that most assembly line work is unskilled labor. In the non-union world, unskilled labor = large pool of people able to do it = high labor supply = lower wage. That's not to say all assembly line work is unskilled, or that the work doesn't require training. But the kid at Whataburger has to be trained to do his job too, doesn't mean it's a skilled position.

And there's a fallacy in your argument. Higher pay doesn't always translate to better quality of work. Toyota (for example) builds cars here using non-union labor. And yet, most would say Toyota's build quality is better than GM's. A company that puts out crap is going to have problems, regardless of the wage paid.

quote Originally posted by JazzMan: loafer87gt just wants to drive cars and fly in planes made by $9.50/hour workers with no benefits, or at least, the kind of workers that you can get for that. Imagine the quality of planes and cars made by companies who were competing with Whataburger for employees. Hey, I know just the place for loafer87gt: China! Their workers make even less than that and are truly disposable, being discarded when injured on the job like a used sandwich wrapper. I'm all for loafer87gt getting to achieve his dream. Really, I am. JazzMan

Where did I say that they should be making $9.50 an hour? I have said in the past that there is a HUGE discrepancy between what workers at Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers who have plants in the North America make and what the average unionized worker at the Big 3 make. Last stats said that Toyota employees make around $48 an hour, with GM / Ford / Dodge workers averaging $78 when benefits are factored in. If they were making big $$ selling vehicles and could afford to pay their workers, more power to them. Pay their employees as much as they want. But when their sales are dismal and they can't pay their workers the exorbant wage they are demanding, why the hell should the tax payer step in and have to subsidize these companies? Why should the poor guy making mininum wage at the local coffee shop have to have his tax dollars to pay Joe the wrench turner's $80 an hour wage? It's bullshit. The Big 3 need a little tough love to get things straightened out. I agree with Pyrthian, the union workers are just part of the problem. The management who agreed to their demands and who are running ship all deserve to be fired as well. The companies as a whole are a lost cause, and until they have to face the reality of running a business without a government provided safety net to protect them from their own mismangement and bad decisions, nothing is going to change.

Don't get rid of Unions. GET RID OF THE SHOP STEWARDS!!! THEY are the lazy bastewards!! And it is THEY who offer their Union members more than they are worth, and then get (force) the management to give it to them!! make Shop Stewardship a position filled by somebody way way away from the company payroll. Make it an annual position. No guaranteed tenure for life. THEY are the ones who evoke the greed in ordinary working men..not the men themselves!
I've worked in Union affiliated work-forces in many places in Europe over the years, and I can tell you this...there were only around 10% who didn't pull their weight...and they soon lost their jobs because the Union Members were as sick of them as the management!! A fair Union is as important as a fair Management. And the Union has very little to do when the management are fair. And the Management have very little to gripe about when the Union is fair.
I have seen Management walk through a shop floor, or a warehouse, and stop and chat with the workers. I have seen workers keen to chat with the Management. And those places were the best. Smith's Crisps in Holland was one.THIS guy drove a Ford Mondeo, wore ordinary clothes, and didn't stink of aftershave.
And I have seen management walk through a shop floor etc looking like someone farted, and only they can smell it!! And I have seen workers waving two fingers at their backs as they majestically sailed through the 'riff-raff'...and guess what? That was a Company that died a death. Both places had Unions. One needed it, and the other didn't, most of the time. Oh...and the MD drove a Bentley...
This is why I say 'good luck' if you command an excellent salary, and can afford the best. Just don't flaunt your wealth in the face of the people who earned it for you.THAT causes resentment, be it justified or not.
Nick

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Don't get rid of Unions. GET RID OF THE SHOP STEWARDS!!!

Not to pass by your wisdom........I had a thought I want to not forget.
Who should be fighting harder to give cash to GM ? The Unions. Even if it is loans on concessions.

.

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 12-03-2008).]

So a loftsman or a patternmaker = assembly line worker.

Apples = Oranges

Got it! Thanks for your comparison.

Give every licensed driver, over the age of 21, a tax-free $10,000 voucher to be used (only) towards the purchase of a domestic car. Cars purchased with the voucher would have to be purchased at full sticker.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Where did I say that they should be making $9.50 an hour? I have said in the past that there is a HUGE discrepancy between what workers at Toyota and other Japanese manufacturers who have plants in the North America make and what the average unionized worker at the Big 3 make. Last stats said that Toyota employees make around $48 an hour, with GM / Ford / Dodge workers averaging $78 when benefits are factored in. If they were making big $$ selling vehicles and could afford to pay their workers, more power to them. Pay their employees as much as they want.

You do realize that the economy and lack of sales is the reason the Big 3 are losing money right?

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: But when their sales are dismal and they can't pay their workers the exorbant wage they are demanding, why the hell should the tax payer step in and have to subsidize these companies?

Here you even admit the real reason they are losing money.

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: I agree with Pyrthian, the union workers are just part of the problem. The management who agreed to their demands and who are running ship all deserve to be fired as well.

That’s a good idea, right. Fire everyone. Smart. If anyone is replaceable it is the management. They make the choices of what the employees build.
They make the big mistakes.

Nick I got to disagree.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Don't get rid of Unions. GET RID OF THE SHOP STEWARDS!!! THEY are the lazy bastewards!! And it is THEY who offer their Union members more than they are worth, and then get (force) the management to give it to them!! make Shop Stewardship a position filled by somebody way way away from the company payroll. Nick

Shop stewards are paid by union dues, not the company. At least here in the states. We also have yearly or every couple of years elections. You don’t do your job you are voted out.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I've worked in Union affiliated work-forces in many places in Europe over the years, and I can tell you this...there were only around 10% who didn't pull their weight...and they soon lost their jobs because the Union Members were as sick of them as the management!! A fair Union is as important as a fair Management. And the Union has very little to do when the management are fair. And the Management have very little to gripe about when the Union is fair. Nick

That I agree with.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: I have seen Management walk through a shop floor, or a warehouse, and stop and chat with the workers. I have seen workers keen to chat with the Management. And those places were the best. Smith's Crisps in Holland was one. THIS guy drove a Ford Mondeo, wore ordinary clothes, and didn't stink of aftershave. Nick

That is also true.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: And I have seen management walk through a shop floor etc looking like someone farted, and only they can smell it!! And I have seen workers waving two fingers at their backs as they majestically sailed through the 'riff-raff'...and guess what? That was a Company that died a death. Both places had Unions. One needed it, and the other didn't, most of the time. Oh...and the MD drove a Bentley... This is why I say 'good luck' if you command an excellent salary, and can afford the best. Just don't flaunt your wealth in the face of the people who earned it for you. THAT causes resentment, be it justified or not. Nick

I agree with that also.

quote Originally posted by cliffw: Not to pass by your wisdom........I had a thought I want to not forget. Who should be fighting harder to give cash to GM ? The Unions. Even if it is loans on concessions.

The unions have already given concessions, this last contract. Isn’t that a loan?

quote Originally posted by aceman: So a loftsman or a patternmaker = assembly line worker. Apples = Oranges Got it! Thanks for your comparison.

As is your comparison of a union autoworker and meat cutters assembly line. Isn’t that the union you belonged to Ace.

There is a lot more to an autoworkers job than just cutting a slab of meat or putting a screw in.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: The unions have already given concessions, this last contract. Isn’t that a loan?

No, it is not. Is it enough ? They might have to concede that they have no job. That will be enough.

quote Shop stewards are paid by union dues, not the company. At least here in the states. We also have yearly or every couple of years elections. You don’t do your job you are voted out.

And that is the problem as I see it Steve. Being elected and payed for by the Union is going to create a one-sided approach, much as the Management's desire to refuse requests put to them by the Unions. A disinterested Shop Steward would be far more open to negotiate fairly between both side, IMHO.The only way to get that working would be a Shop Steward acceptable to both sides. An unbiased referee, if you like.I guess that would be hard to find though Within a short period of time they would become biased to whomever exerted enough influence over them . The reality is that it should be the Market which would be the sole influence...but would either side be able to agree terms? I somehow doubt that there is anybody on this planet who could remain unbiased. And if they DID, the losing side would always complain about them being biased against them
I give up
Nick

IMO, everyone needs to take a pay cut. Everyone at the big 3 is overpaid. I don't want my tax dollars going to support their pay anymore. Simple economics say they can't afford to pay their workers, because they don't have enough money coming in to do so. Why should everyone else pay their wages. No business can operate that way and stay in business. They should not be bailed out, because if nothing changes in their operations it is a waste of our tax dollars. They were already bailed out once. They haven't even paid that back yet. They're idiots as businessmen.

Jane

------------------
Imagination is the only weapon in the war against reality

quote Originally posted by loafer87gt: Been working for 16 years now. Worked for an architectural firm for the first four years, then finished off my schooling and started my own business. Don't have a contract with my employer, because I am my employer. My retirement is whatever I save myself. If work slows down or times get tough, I don't go to the government for a bailout, I put in extra hours and do whatever is necessary to remedy the situation. If things aren't going the way I like, there is only one person to blame and that is myself. It's a little things called personal responsibility, something the average wrench turner at GM is clueless about. I'm sorry Steve, I know you and I disagree about unions, but I have had too many friends who have union jobs tell me what a joke employment is at a unionized workplace. They say that once you are done your probationary period, you can basically do sweet f'all and not have to worry about the security of your job. They will literally not show at work for days at a time, taking unneeded sick days and their seniors will tell them not to worry as they are protected by the union. It's a damn farce. As they all say, the creed around the workplace is do the absolutely bare minimum and work with your union leader to try and set the lowest standards possible. If things are similar in the Big 3, no wonder they are in the situation they are.

So you have been alive, not working, just alive. The amount of time the average retired autoworker has put in on the job to get his retirement.

Is it a good idea to kill their retirement?
Is it going to hurt the economy?

If the big three go under, not only will we lose about a quarter million jobs immediately the fallout of suppliers, could be 2 million. At least thats what CBS news this morning.

See we are not just talking about the autoworkers, we are talking about,

The suppliers,
The sandwich shop makers,
The advertising budjets for these companies amout to millions a year,
The tax dollars lost,
This will snowball,
Someone figure that out.
The amount of tax dollars lost alone could be billions in just the first month.

Just a question for you Loafer, what is your business?
This could even affect you.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Keep in mind, the proposed $25 billion bailout is in addition to the already approved $25 billion "green" monies congress passed earlier in the year.

Question:
How many UAW members are currently drawing full (or close to it) pay & benefits in the US auto industry?

It's ok to bailout 700k for financial institutions who will spend as much as 400k to take execs on a golf outing... but it's not ok to let the auto industry borrow 25 billion of that. Socialism for the wealthy is ok but we don't want to "start down a slippery slope" when it comes to lending money to manufacturing in this country.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Give every licensed driver, over the age of 21, a tax-free $10,000 voucher to be used (only) towards the purchase of a domestic car. Cars purchased with the voucher would have to be purchased at full sticker.

Interesting idea, not a auto bail out per se, but a way to get the product moving. Only problem, this is socialism. We are heading that way already. We are slowly becoming the USSA. I do not have the answers, but I do know that the big 3 were a HUGE reason we won WWII, and with that manufacturing base going over seas, what will happen if there is ever the need again, due to a world war? Will we buy our planes and tanks from China? What if they are who we are fighting?

quote Originally posted by Tigger: It's ok to bailout 700k for financial institutions who will spend as much as 400k to take execs on a golf outing... but it's not ok to let the auto industry borrow 25 billion of that. Socialism for the wealthy is ok but we don't want to "start down a slippery slope" when it comes to lending money to manufacturing in this country.

Less than 1/3 of that has been allocated by congress, and it it $700B, not 700K. About $150B has actually been injected into the economy, the rest is being held for the new administration to use.
Banks, such as Citi are doing the right thing. Refusing exec bonuses and cutting their workforce by 52,000. When the auto industry makes similar cuts, ratioed to their workforce size, then I'll be in favor of a "UAW" bailout, since that is really what it will be.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Keep in mind, the proposed $25 billion bailout is in addition to the already approved $25 billion "green" monies congress passed earlier in the year. Question: How many UAW members are currently drawing full (or close to it) pay & benefits in the US auto industry?

Ok lets go ball park figures here, they are in no way accurate but should be close.

250,000 current working UAW members,
750,000 current retired UAW members,
That’s 1,000,000 people, that’s right 1 million, who will immediately have no income.

You think the housing market is in bad shape and bankruptcies are high now.

That does not include job bank employees who are current with their mortgages. Mainly because I have seen no real numbers with a link to the numbers to be sure they are true.

No matter what you are looking at over 1 million people who have an income right now, and will not if the big three go down.

The housing market will take a hit that you will not believe.

We will go immediately into a depression of cataclysmic proportions.

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Ok lets go ball park figures here, they are in no way accurate but should be close. 250,000 current working UAW members, 750,000 current retired UAW members, That’s 1,000,000 people, that’s right 1 million, who will immediately have no income. You think the housing market is in bad shape and bankruptcies are high now. That does not include job bank employees who are current with their mortgages. Mainly because I have seen no real numbers with a link to the numbers to be sure they are true. No matter what you are looking at over 1 million people who have an income right now, and will not if the big three go down. The housing market will take a hit that you will not believe. We will go immediately into a depression of cataclysmic proportions. Steve

why dont they just go and get other jobs?
cant they just "get off their azzes"?
I'm fine - must be their fault.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Ok lets go ball park figures here, they are in no way accurate but should be close. 250,000 current working UAW members, 750,000 current retired UAW members, That’s 1,000,000 people, that’s right 1 million, who will immediately have no income.

One million people drawing what is generally accepted as being $71/hr pay & benefits. X 8 hrs/day=$568 million/day labor and legacy cost to the auto makers. even if the accepted figure for wages/benefits were cut in half, that still comes out to $284 million/day. Ya see the problem?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: why dont they just go and get other jobs? cant they just "get off their azzes"? I'm fine - must be their fault.

The retirees? That’s 750,000 people.

We have high unemployment now, besides who is going to higher a 70 man?

The current GM employees?
Where are they going to find jobs in this economy that come close to their current pay scale? Without that how do they pay their mortgages?

These people, like everyone else has a set mortgage, monthly bills. That right now are getting paid.

Think that will impact the economy well?

Steve

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: One million people drawing what is generally accepted as being $71/hr pay & benefits. X 8 hrs/day=$568 million/day labor and legacy cost to the auto makers. even if the accepted figure for wages/benefits were cut in half, that still comes out to $284 million/day. Ya see the problem?

And that figure would probably be 100X more than they spend a day on all of the current upper management and former upper management. Huh! Whodda thunk!

quote Originally posted by maryjane: One million people drawing what is generally accepted as being $71/hr pay & benefits. X 8 hrs/day=$568 million/day labor and legacy cost to the auto makers. even if the accepted figure for wages/benefits were cut in half, that still comes out to $284 million/day. Ya see the problem?

I see if they lose their jobs, and retirement (That is no where near that pay), 1 million more foreclosures.

Ya see the problem?

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

BTW, the growing concensus in congress, is to go ahead and let the industry file ch. 11, so they can restructure top to bottom. Once that happens, to the satisfaction of bancruptcy judes, congress will be more than willing to lend them whatever they need to become & stay financially solvent.
My gut feeling is this is what will happen. Management will be completely replaced, labor contracts will be replaced by something realistic, and the Big 3 will be a lot smaller, more efficient, and will be required under terms of the loan packages, to make & sell what American and global buyers want. Waggoner won't last till Christmas--he may not last till Friday. If today's congressional hearings see UAW's representative toeing the hard line regarding concessions, they can hang it up. It is a foregone conclusion that there will be no more bonuses or golden parachutes for upper management--the fly in the ointment is whether UAW will back down or not. It is on their shoulders, and at this point, it doesn't matter who's fault anything is--the status quo cannot stand--both in the blue collar segment and white collar segment.

Cut CUT CUT CUT CUT

quote Originally posted by maryjane: One million people drawing what is generally accepted as being $71/hr pay & benefits. X 8 hrs/day=$568 million/day labor and legacy cost to the auto makers. even if the accepted figure for wages/benefits were cut in half, that still comes out to $284 million/day. Ya see the problem?

you are talking about the lowest paid people at the company. and - you are also talking about the people who actually build the companies product. while it is 100% true they are over paid - the are not nearly as overpaid as management.

yes, I understand it is fun to do the multiplication of their numbers, and make it look like an outragous amount - but, again - they are the lowest paid people there - AND they build the companies actual product. if one man can stand there and with a straight face ask for $10 million/year salary - $71/hr is NOTHING.

THEY ARE ALL OVERPAID. Ya see the problem? $10 million / year.

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I see if they lose their jobs, and retirement (That is no where near that pay), 1 million more foreclosures. Ya see the problem?

Yep, I see it, and the solution. The only solution. $25 billion won't last 3 months under present labor costs. Not even if those labor costs are overestimated by 2Xs. And, no where near all 1 million UAW members would lose their homes--you are just trying to be sensationalist in your rhetoric. Even if it were true (and it's not) help will be available under Obama's home forclosure aid plan.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: Ya see the problem? $10 million / year.

How many are making $10 Million a year? How many are making more than $1 million a year? How many are making more than $500,000/year?

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: you are talking about the lowest paid people at the company. and - you are also talking about the people who actually build the companies product. while it is 100% true they are over paid - the are not nearly as overpaid as management. yes, I understand it is fun to do the multiplication of their numbers, and make it look like an outragous amount - but, again - they are the lowest paid people there - AND they build the companies actual product. if one man can stand there and with a straight face ask for $10 million/year salary - $71/hr is NOTHING. THEY ARE ALL OVERPAID. Ya see the problem? $10 million / year.

Yes, I fully agree--they are ALL overpaid. Big cuts need to be made across the board. There should be no sacred cows.

quote Originally posted by aceman: And that figure would probably be 100X more than they spend a day on all of the current upper management and former upper management. Huh! Whodda thunk!

while thats all nice & cute - but they are still the lowest paid people in the company.
and - they actually build the product which makes the company money.

Devil's Advocate ..the choice:

There is a pregnant woman. There are serious complications with the pregnancy. They could save the child, and the mother would die. Or save the mother, and the baby would die.Save the mother, and she could probably continue to live a productive life, and possibly have a successful birth next time. Save the baby, and it will need to be nurtured and fed and parented for 16 years minimum before becoming productive. Fiscally, it makes sense to save the mother. Emotionally, it would be kinder to save the baby.
Not a nice analogy, but realistic to compare it to the Big Three.
Anybody here brave enough to choose the fiscally sound option? Or would we all save the baby?
And happily pay the cost? Even if we KNOW we can't afford to???????
Nick

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I see if they lose their jobs, and retirement (That is no where near that pay), 1 million more foreclosures. Ya see the problem?

How many will be employed at a more realistic wage with a new automaker once the Big 3 go under?

Steve, I witnessed Johnstown, PA whither on the vine after Bethlehem Steel went under. The town didn't die. New industries and new steel plants came in. It was not the same, but it was not cataclysmic (sp?). My father-in-law went to work for $9/hr 40 hours a week with no layoffs instead of $15/hr laid off from work a 1/3 of the time.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 11-18-2008).]

Doesn't matter Pyritian--it all has to be reformulated to something that works for the future survival of the industry. Janitors to the ceo.

quote Originally posted by fierofetish: Devil's Advocate ..the choice: There is a pregnant woman. There are serious complications with the pregnancy. They could save the child, and the mother would die. Or save the mother, and the baby would die.Save the mother, and she could probably continue to live a productive life, and possibly have a successful birth next time. Save the baby, and it will need to be nurtured and fed and parented for 16 years minimum before becoming productive. Fiscally, it makes sense to save the mother. Emotionally, it would be kinder to save the baby. Not a nice analogy, but realistic to compare it to the Big Three. Anybody here brave enough to choose the fiscally sound option? Or would we all save the baby? And happily pay the cost? Even if we KNOW we can't afford to??????? Nick

let them bask in their choices.
find a new girl. a younger girl. one thats not gonna give trouble when it is baby makin time.
this existing one is way to much maintainance.
hey, them little asians sure are cute
and who could deny a fine german model?

but, some of us just like the classic american woman - bagge and all....

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: while thats all nice & cute - but they are still the lowest paid people in the company. and - they actually build the product which makes the company money.

So?

quote Originally posted by aceman: How many will be employed at a more realistic wage with a new automaker once the Big 3 go under?

Most, if they want to work--just not with GM, Ford, Chrysler. They will have to do like everyone else in the world--find other jobs. Yes, it will involve relocation for many, if not most. The Govt would likely take over the pension payments of those who already are of retirement age, or close to it, so that would remain solvent, albeit at perhaps a reduced rate.
The reality is, that the market share currently held by the Big Insolvent 3 will be absorbed by other auto makers, so many of the current employees will be able to find work with Honda, Nissan etc, since current production rates at those plants is not enough to make up for the shortfall in supply when the Big Insolvent 3 goes away.
OR, The Big Insolvent 3 can take the tough steps neccessary to make themselves solvent--as I indicated above.

[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 11-18-2008).]