Originally posted by 84fiero123: Then so are those people in California who bought all those homes on the side of a hill. Only to have them slide down the hill when it rained.
Heres the real kicker... Ya see, we americans were smart when we bought a huge piece of swampland from the French... Those stupid Frenchies LOL!!!
Manger ses mots!!
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06:50 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by aceman: WHAT A CONCEPT! That's already there, Steve. It's called Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI). It's mandatory for all that take out a loan and don't have 20% down when they buy a loan.
Right... That PMI deal seems to be working just GREAT!!!!
Get a god damn clue... if it was working why are so many losing their homes?
quote
Get out of the pool before you drown, Ste........................F@ck it. Stay there and drown.
Yet another greand idea... The markets is essentially dead. Sales are down, prices are down.
If you dont have any equity.... you lose. If you must sell it WILL be for way less than you pid for it... and... you still lose.
The bank gets the house back, the previous owner still gets stuck paying for it
The new owner who got a great deal on a fire sale gets the "sweetheart loan" because he has 5 rental homes, never missed a payment and he can jack up the rent increasing his proffit to loss ratio. Yes yes... Slum lords rule...
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07:06 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
PMI isn't there to bail out the homeowner with the mortgage. It's there for the bank to recoup some of the losses the idiot who couldn't pay his mortgage caused.
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07:08 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
PMI isn't there to bail out the homeowner with the mortgage. It's there for the bank to recoup some of the losses the idiot who couldn't pay his mortgage caused.
Right....
Again, brillient... Recap
Merrill Lynch to Post 3Q Loss
NEW YORK (AP) - Investment bank Merrill Lynch & Co. said Friday that credit and mortgage woes will lead to a third-quarter loss of up to 50 cents per share. The New York-based firm said it would take some $5 billion in write- downs.
In premarket trading, its shares dropped $1.08 to $73.70.
The bulk of the losses will come from marking down the value of collateralized debt obligations and subprime mortgages, which are home loans given to customers with poor credit history.
Rising delinquencies and defaults among mortgages, especially subprime loans, have led to the near disappearance of investors willing to buy the loans.
Without an investor market, the value of the loans decreases, leading to write-downs of portfolios.
Subprime mortgages are often used in CDOs—complex instruments that combine pieces of different kinds of debt—pushing their value lower as well.
Analysts polled by Thomson Financial, on average, forecast earnings of $1.24 per share for the quarter ending Sept. 30.
UBS to Post $690M 3Q Loss ZURICH, Switzerland — UBS SA (UBS), the largest Swiss bank, said Monday it would post a pretax loss of up to $690 million in the third quarter mainly because of losses linked to the U.S. subprime mortgage crisis.
The losses will hit UBS's Investment Bank, but "our Global Wealth Management & Business Banking and Global Asset Management businesses continue to record good results," said a company statement.
The loss will result in the shedding of 1,500 jobs from the bank's work force of 80,000 people by the end of this year, Chief Executive Marcel Rohner said in a conference call.
He also said the bank was making changes in top management as a result of the losses, and that he would take over as investment banking chief, replacing Huw Jenkins, who will step down to become an adviser. Group Chief Financial Officer Clive Standish will retire, Rohner said.
"UBS operates on the principle that management is accountable to shareholders," he said. "These events have led to the management changes announced today."
"Following a write down of positions in fixed income, rates and currencies, mainly related to deteriorating conditions in the U.S. subprime residential mortgage market, UBS is likely to record an overall group pretax loss of between 600 million francs and 800 million francs ($515 million to $690 million) for the third quarter, ended Sept. 30," a bank statement said.
It said pretax profits for the first nine months of 2007 will be about $8.6 billion.
Rohner noted that when second quarter results were announced in August he said that UBS could expect a "very weak trading result in the Investment Bank" if turbulent conditions continue to prevail throughout the quarter.
"In fact, conditions remained turbulent, so we will make an overall pretax loss at group level for the quarter," he said.
UBS's share price dropped 3.8 percent to $51.79 in trading on the Zurich exchange. Sovereign Bancorp expects to record charges The bank cites mortgage-backed securities and credit market volatility as reason for third-quarter charges.
"the parent company of Sovereign Bank, warned Friday that it expects to record hefty charges in the third quarter due to the deterioration of mortgage-backed securities and credit market volatility."
Must not have bought PMI insurance.
Trapped by the mortgage meltdown Tighter lending standards have put many home sellers, owners and buyers in a bind. Here's how to escape it.
Meet the Olivers: good credit and low risk. So why are they in danger of losing their home? How to get deep in mortgage trouble in one hard lesson
August foreclosures zoom Sun Belt states catch up with Rust Belt states to lead mortgage delinquency rates, according to a monthly survey.
Flippers fuel foreclosures Real estate speculators drove prices up in some of the hottest markets during the boom. Now they're making foreclosures jump.
Subprime hit could top $100B Housing slump could hurt consumer spending; Fed is moving to protect consumers from predatory mortgage lending
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 10-07-2007).]
is it a "trap"? hard to say it is....most of the lessons here are as old as Aesops Fables. It sucks that so many people think the lessons from old Aesop are trite, and no longer apply. That the modern man and his TV have made it beyond such things.
like every other BAD BAD habit - its gets tougher & tougher to get out of "the trap" the longer you stay "in it". DONT use credit DONT smoke DONT drink DONT skip school DONT do drugs DONT gamble
I'm sure theres more. but, you can see the company it is in. like all the others - if you got self control - it can be fun. but - know going in - it is DANGEROUSLY addictive. and - it will take you down - if you let it. and, just like the others - I DONT want laws against it. and - just thiunk how much worse this wopuld be if drug dealers accepted VISA/MC?
WHAT A CONCEPT! That's already there, Steve. It's called Private Mortgage Insurance (PMI). It's mandatory for all that take out a loan and don't have 20% down when they buy a loan.
(unneccesary insults deleted)
PMI only protects the bank, not the homeowner, and even at that it's regular insurance which means that everyone paying PMI will start paying more in order to cover the losses incurred by the banks. Luckily, I had enough to make a 20% down payment though I had to close out all my retirement savings and most of my cash to do it, so I won't have to bite the PMI bullet. I never saw any sense in paying for insurance that only protected someone else.
PMI only protects the bank, not the homeowner, and even at that it's regular insurance which means that everyone paying PMI will start paying more in order to cover the losses incurred by the banks. Luckily, I had enough to make a 20% down payment though I had to close out all my retirement savings and most of my cash to do it, so I won't have to bite the PMI bullet. I never saw any sense in paying for insurance that only protected someone else.
JazzMan
What is the status on the house you are fixing up?
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05:18 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Funny thing about the unemployment rate in the USA is that is only people who have applied for or are eligible and receiving unemployment.
What about those who have used up those benefits? They are not counted.
Or the homeless, they are not all just drunken drug addicts.
Layoff led to homelessness All it took was a layoff to push Robert Garner over the edge. About a month ago, the 40-year-old was laid off from his job at a packing plant and could no longer afford the $475 rent for his mobile home in Lima, Ohio. So he packed a backpack with whatever he could carry — clothes, a razor and sleeping bag — and hitchhiked 122 miles to Cincinnati, where he wound up sleeping under a bridge. He sold his car because he couldn't keep up with the payments. He went to soup kitchens for meals or worked odd jobs to pay for food. Drop-in homeless shelters provided a place for him to shower. In late July, he got a $9.50-an-hour job driving a forklift for the Ohio Valley Goodwill Industries Rehabilitation Center, which also provided him with housing. "The economy has really taken a toll on manufacturing," Garner says. "It was hard. I don't like to take things from people. I like to help myself. In a way, you get a sense of hopelessness. But I tried to keep a nice, clean appearance." Other factors putting more families and workers at risk:
Some have lost jobs and then their unemployment so they are no longer in those statistics.
Yet you say we are doing great, ya right.
You know what, believe what you want but these are facts. People that are homeless are not on the unemployed rates.
They are factory workers who lost there jobs, not high paying job, unless you consider. Nonunion factory workers wages high.
No one has even mentioned these people in this thread.
OK now what do you have to say.
edited to fix link ------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 10-10-2007).]
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11:59 PM
Oct 10th, 2007
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
People who live paycheck to paycheck are in the millions in this country, say what you want but they are just a couple of paycheck away from being homeless themselves. Without an address you are not eligible for any kind of unemployment benefits.
Now what do you have to say?
These are numbers from 02 but then we have just gone from bad to worse.
•Soaring housing costs. The median price for existing homes is projected to rise 6% in 2003 to $167,800, according to the National Association of Realtors. "The economy has been in a down phase before, but this time housing prices have really continued to skyrocket. It's been a huge factor in the explosion in homelessness among families," says Mitchell Netburn, director of the Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority, which coordinates homeless programs in the city and county. The median home price in the Los Angeles area for the first quarter of 2003 was $307,900. That's up 16.2% from the first quarter of 2002. As prices go up, it becomes harder for the poor to purchase a home or even afford rent. Nearly 28 million households — one in four — reported spending more than 30% of their income on housing, according to the Millennial Housing Commission. That amount is more than the government deems affordable, the commission reports. Median monthly gross rent in the nation climbed to $602 in 2000 from $481 a month in 1980, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.
More from the same link.
Mounting debt. Consumer debt is growing, and more homeowners are taking out loans to pay credit card debts. Foreclosures are up. Last year, there were 1.5 million bankruptcy filings by individuals — the highest on record — up from 289,000 non-business filings in 1980, according to the American Bankruptcy Institute. Though about 20% of the homeless live in the suburbs, the rise in homelessness is mostly manifesting itself in major urban areas. In Boston, the number of homeless women increased by 10% in 2002 compared with 2001, according to a city census. In San Francisco, the city reports that the homeless population in 2002 was 8,640, an 18% rise over 2001.
But we are in great shape.
BS
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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12:02 AM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
United States Homeless Statistics The average age of a homeless person living in the US is nine years-old. 3.5 million people (1.35 million of which are children) will experience homelessness in a given year. Children under the age of 18 account for 39% of the homeless population. 42% of these are under the age of 5. 43% of the homeless population are women; 40% of these women are unaccompanied. 22% of homeless women claim domestic abuse as reason for homelessness. 25% of these claim to have been abused within the past year. Families with children comprise 33% of the homeless population. Vets constitute 40% of the homeless population. 1 in every 5 homeless persons has a severe or persistent mental illness. 25% of the homeless nationwide are employed.
I know I put my other posts and links on late last night but this is just one more to get my posts to the general readers who still say we are in great shape.
We are not talking about drunks and drug addicts, we are talking about families who have lost homes, vets who have fallen threw the cracks.
Yet the economy is doing just great.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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08:04 AM
Pyrthian Member
Posts: 29569 From: Detroit, MI Registered: Jul 2002
I think much of the problem here is the fact that "good" & "bad" is subjective. and, to some - it does not even apply. to some - the economy is what it is - they will thrive & advance no matter what. as you have heard from many - their mutual funds are doing GREAT. yes, they are investing in foriegners & letting americans dwindle. "the economy" is fine. it is always fine. even thru "the great depression" - it was fine. there is ALWAYS money to be made.
I suppose a "fixed price" economy would be what you are looking for? where, no matter what - this item costs this much, forever. I do beleive this is kinda what china has been attempting.
anyways - dont do credit.
and - next - the "living paycheck to paycheck" this is a lifestyle issue. the people who live like this do so because thats how they want it. they want to feel like "big boys & girls". they want to "make it on their own" - even tho - they obviously cant. any immigrant could show them exactly how to live. with more family. cut down on the rent/mortage. pride. they just got to get out there on their own at 18, before they even are close to getting a "real" job - and then get themselves into the rut where they are endlessly chasing their tails. and then enter the credit cards/equity loans. now their fate is sealed. because I can say with certainty - that what was bought with the credit cards/equity loan was not any self improvement/schooling - it was a entertainment system, clothes, prepared meals - anything to "make life easier"....AKA - LAZY
there are plenty of immigrants who come in - make less money - and yet still manage get by, and still able to send money back home, enough to family eventually over here too.
its that inane rush to leave the family at 18 that ruins many young men's futures. get out there and start throwing money away with rent for an apartment. start digging the hole with credit. by the time they are 25 - they are screwed for the next 10 years. and still havent figured out that it dont get any easier. it only get easy if YOU make it easy. the only person who will move you forward is you. have more to offer than a highschooler.
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10:05 AM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Geezs, LFC @ 94 and RIMM @ 114 and climbing...a 12% increase from last night closing.
quote
Originally posted by 84fiero123:
And that means so much to these people.
Boom, Bust in Area Beset by Foreclosures
Meanwhile, As the World Turns....LFC @ 96.02, RIMM @ 114.66 (unchanged), but GOOG up @ 621 from 584 from Fridays close. Will GOOG hit the $700 mark? One thing is for sure, during this period since this thread was started....ya coulda' been making some paper money.
[This message has been edited by madcurl (edited 10-10-2007).]
Another morning barrage of gloom and doom, with the examples shown to include people spending more money than they have coming in as a shining example to attempt to prove how horrible things are. No sympathy from me for people that buy more house than they can afford. Especially no sympathy for people that wail themselves into debt on credit cards and or rape their equity in their homes to pay these stupid debts off. Maybe an even better example of idiot behavior is when someone dips into their home equity to pay the car off they couldn't afford in the first place! ya, now I have a thirty year car mortgage, yup real F'ing smart.
Even in the best of times you can find examples of people having a hard go of it. Yes sometimes it isn't anything they have really done themselves, just bad luck. I do have sympathy in this case. The vast majority of the time they have brought it upon themselves doing things like I pointed out above. We can also add having children they can't afford and too soon to the list, maybe even move that one to the top.
Dept is a bad bad bad thing! it is really letting the devil in the door! The only thing to me that is worth the risk is a home, because let's face it most do not have the ready funds to make that purchase but even in this case you have to be very realistic as to how much house you can really handle. Most are not
Another morning barrage of gloom and doom, with the examples shown to include people spending more money than they have coming in as a shining example to attempt to prove how horrible things are.
Yup... fine fine fine.
Countrywide help for borrowers falls short, critics say Consumer advocates say efforts by the nation's largest mortgage company to help homeowners avoid foreclosure are insufficient.
Existing home sales expected to drop 10.8% National Association of Realtors says rate will be the lowest since 2002.
Strike 2: UAW shuts down Chrysler More than 32,000 workers start second nationwide auto strike in less than two weeks, this time hitting No. 4 U.S. automaker.
Dow dips after record Blue chips struggle after Alcoa's earnings miss, Boeing's delivery delays, oil company warnings; Nasdaq ekes out new 6-1/2 year high.
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05:46 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Dow dips after record Blue chips struggle after Alcoa's earnings miss, Boeing's delivery delays, oil company warnings; Nasdaq ekes out new 6-1/2 year high.
Fixed that bolding for you, Bill
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06:56 PM
madcurl Member
Posts: 21401 From: In a Van down by the Kern River Registered: Jul 2003
Meanwhile, As the World Turns....LFC @ 96.02, RIMM @ 114.66 (unchanged), but GOOG up @ 621 from 584 from Fridays close. Will GOOG hit the $700 mark? One thing is for sure, during this period since this thread was started....ya coulda' been making some paper money.
GOOG up in after hours trading $630, RIMM $117, CSCO $33.33, LFC $96, MSFT $30
Countrywide help for borrowers falls short, critics say Consumer advocates say efforts by the nation's largest mortgage company to help homeowners avoid foreclosure are insufficient.
As I stated, I don't care, no sympathy for the vast majority of losers
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: Existing home sales expected to drop 10.8% National Association of Realtors says rate will be the lowest since 2002.
"expected" is the key word., they are always getting it wrong. I bet sales in 2002 were way above some previous years too.
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: Strike 2: UAW shuts down Chrysler More than 32,000 workers start second nationwide auto strike in less than two weeks, this time hitting No. 4 U.S. automaker.
I heard the strike was already over.
quote
Originally posted by 84Bill: Dow dips after record Blue chips struggle after Alcoa's earnings miss, Boeing's delivery delays, oil company warnings; Nasdaq ekes out new 6-1/2 year high.
No big deal at all.
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07:59 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Some are not as lucky as those here who have so much.
I find myself stating something that all here may already know.
I had a stroke a few years ago, I was doing well before the stroke. Well enough to pay the mortgage on a home that was within one year of being paid off, 4 years ahead of schedule. For more months than I care to remember.
Could all of you go without an income for 6 months and still pay all your bills?
Could all of you go without an income for 9 months and still pay all your bills?
Could all of you go without an income for more than a year and still pay all your bills?
I did. Without a union job. Without help from anyone?
I did. Could you?
I find it amazing that you use some people who have over extended themselves as an excuse for this economies bankruptcies, housing prices, that had nothing to do with union jobs.
You are doing well, and now I am also since my stroke even though I will never work a real job again. But you find it funny that others who are less fortunate than many of us here are in the crapper.
And insist that all their problems are their fault, no one else’s. in some cases that is true, but in many, many others it is not.
Good for you I hope you enjoy your good health and financial security for a very long time. But to those who think it is nothing more than a blip in the economic history of the USA try doing what I and many others in my situation have done after a catastrophic illness.
Or loss of job, or loss of that mate, and their second income.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Originally posted by Red88FF: As I stated, I don't care, no sympathy for the vast majority of losers
Right right.. you dont care.. got ya... Neither do I but... what exactly did the fed have to do to rectify this minor problem you care so little about?
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 10-10-2007).]
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08:09 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Some are not as lucky as those here who have so much.
I find myself stating something that all here may already know.
I had a stroke a few years ago, I was doing well before the stroke. Well enough to pay the mortgage on a home that was within one year of being paid off, 4 years ahead of schedule. For more months than I care to remember.
Could all of you go without an income for 6 months and still pay all your bills?
Could all of you go without an income for 9 months and still pay all your bills?
Could all of you go without an income for more than a year and still pay all your bills?
I did. Without a union job. Without help from anyone?
I did. Could you?
I find it amazing that you use some people who have over extended themselves as an excuse for this economies bankruptcies, housing prices, that had nothing to do with union jobs.
You are doing well, and now I am also since my stroke even though I will never work a real job again. But you find it funny that others who are less fortunate than many of us here are in the crapper.
And insist that all their problems are their fault, no one else’s. in some cases that is true, but in many, many others it is not.
Good for you I hope you enjoy your good health and financial security for a very long time. But to those who think it is nothing more than a blip in the economic history of the USA try doing what I and many others in my situation have done after a catastrophic illness.
Or loss of job, or loss of that mate, and their second income.
This has what to do with the current economy?
Thanks for sharing, Steve.
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08:10 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by 84fiero123: But you find it funny that others who are less fortunate than many of us here are in the crapper.
And insist that all their problems are their fault, no one else’s. in some cases that is true, but in many, many others it is not.
I don't remember ANYBODY here laughing at the losers, if you can point it out to us I would like to see it! I mean really just where did ANYBODY write, say, or laugh at anyone and their misfortune. Just cause one has no sympathy does not mean they are laughing at them. I fell truly sorry for those idiots.
I think I quite clearly addressed the fault issue in a previous post. get a grip.
[This message has been edited by Red88FF (edited 10-10-2007).]
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08:23 PM
PFF
System Bot
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
You keep saying it is all the peoples fault who over extended themselves that they lost there homes. I stated a fact of something that happened to me, granted I was in better shape than most before my stroke but even so I almost became one of those people who lost there homes.
That has bearing on the economic situation, some of those people didn’t have big credit card bills just rent or mortgages yet they are still on the streets.
Most people are not able to do what I did and that has to do with the economy.
Again, could you?
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
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08:24 PM
84fiero123 Member
Posts: 29950 From: farmington, maine usa Registered: Oct 2004
Originally posted by Red88FF: QUOTE]Originally posted by 84fiero123: But you find it funny that others who are less fortunate than many of us here are in the crapper.
And insist that all their problems are their fault, no one else’s. in some cases that is true, but in many, many others it is not.
I don't remember ANYBODY here laughing at the losers, if you can point it out to us I would like to see it! I mean really just where did ANYBODY write, say, or laugh at anyone and their misfortune. Just cause one has no sympathy does not mean they are laughing at them. I fell truly sorry for those idiots.
I think I quite clearly addressed the fault issue in a previous post. get a grip. [/QUOTE]
funny was a bad choice for the post, but to call them idiots is not any better.
------------------ Technology is great when it works, and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't. Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.
Merrill Lynch to Post 3Q Loss Investment bank Merrill Lynch & Co. said Friday credit and mortgage woes will lead it to post a third-quarter loss, as it takes almost $5 billion ...
UBS to Post $690M 3Q Loss UBS, Europe's biggest bank, on Monday became the first of the world's largest lenders to post a loss in the third quarter after writing off $3.42 billion for the value of securities backed by mortgages..
Sovereign Bancorp Sees 3rd Quarter Loan-Loss Provision $155M-$165M
Washington Mutual 3Q Earnings to Tumble Washington Mutual said its loan loss provision for the quarter will total $975 million
Citigroup warns its 3rd-quarter earnings will fall
J.P. Morgan Chase and Bank of America are expected to reveal losses of about $3 billion on holdings of mortgage securities and leveraged loans when they report third-quarter results this month. This would take to more than $20 billion the total write-downs announced by the world's leading banks as a result of the credit market turmoil over the summer
Yes yes... Fine fine fine...
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08:27 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
You keep saying it is all the peoples fault who over extended themselves that they lost there homes. I stated a fact of something that happened to me, granted I was in better shape than most before my stroke but even so I almost became one of those people who lost there homes.
That has bearing on the economic situation, some of those people didn’t have big credit card bills just rent or mortgages yet they are still on the streets.
Most people are not able to do what I did and that has to do with the economy.
Again, could you?
This has what to do with our economy?
Again, Steve, you can't grasp a concept.
Your stroke is not a key factor in our (The U.S.) economy.
Somebody overextending themselves is not a key factor in our economy.
The lending institution allowing idiots to overextend themselves is a key factor. But them in themselves overextending IS NOT a key factor in the U.S.'s economy.
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08:31 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
Originally posted by aceman: The lending institution allowing idiots to overextend themselves is a key factor. But them in themselves overextending IS NOT a key factor in the U.S.'s economy.
No.... LOL What a fool..
The FED relased something like 50 BILLION BECAUSE the banks needed the cash infusion... THEN the fed lowered the interest rate BECAUSE the banks were STILL failing.. you got your upsurge :golf clap: BUT where the hell did the money come from?????
The dollar is so damn weak it might as well be renamed the penny... YAY!!! A paper penny!!!!!
The banks are posting MAJOR losses. The market it just humming along at 150 MPH as if everything is FINE fine fine....
YEEEEHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! Now you may be wondering if ole Bo and Luke Duke are out of touch with reality because it's not the speed that will hurt...
[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 10-10-2007).]
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08:50 PM
aceman Member
Posts: 4899 From: Brooklyn Center, MN Registered: Feb 2003
if it was working why are so many losing their homes?
Must not have bought PMI insurance. 
