quote Originally posted by Formula88: While I certainly believe there are predatory and misleading mortgage lenders, I think the responsibility for deciding if you can afford something is your own.

I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, personal responsibility has been thrown out the window in this country.

Wow, I think the AP is trying to keep this gloomy outlook going! I have been surfing around and man o man they are painting a disastrous scenario! I have also noticed that they are slow to post the gains by about 40 points, 147 yahoo, up 189 on fox! Reminds me of that Bond movie, the AP seems to be trying to make the news instead of reporting it.

Asian markets are not that lucky,,,,,,aww too bad.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: Wow, I think the AP is trying to keep this gloomy outlook going!

, bad news is good for the news economy. Blood sells.

the economy is heading down the crapper...were sellin are debt to countries like china and japan...were printing off money that doesn't exist...and we don't have a gold backed dollar anymore...not to mention that greenspan screwed us....credit is gonna be tightening so i would be wise with what you spend your money on....and don't get into debt...your credit is going to be even more important to you 5 yrs from now than it is now

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: I'd expect the fact that you dont have the money at the time - is proof enough that you cant afford it, eh? and, buying it on credit basicly insures you never will be able to afford it. but, the baby in us "must have it now". just look at all the other things there are laws about, because a few people cant control themselves. here we are looking at 50% of the population.

Not at all. In fact, quite the opposite. Debt is not evil. A small amount of comsumer debt can be a good thing. It spurs growth. The key is MANAGEABLE debt. If you make $30k a year, don't buy a $250k house, an Escalade and a Corvette and wonder why you're in foreclosure. It's not the economy's fault you made stupid choices. Properly managed, credit can allow you to afford things you never would be able to otherwise, without destroying you financially.

When I bought my house, there was no way I could pay cash for a home, and if I put my monthly mortgage payment in the bank each month to save up for a house, it would take me 30 years to save up what a house would cost today. Only by then the house would be far more expensive, not to mention I'd still have to pay rent somewhere to live in the meantime. Instead, I bought a house and my mortgage payment is close to what my rent payment was on my last apartment. The only added expenses are home maintenance and property taxes. The interest deduction I get on my income taxes more than pays for my property taxes - so my out of pocket expenses have only gone up slightly. Yet, I have equity that I'm building each month and own an asset that will appreciate over time.

When you look at the big picture, it would be more accurate to say I couldn't afford to keep renting if I wanted to buy a house and pay cash.

There will always be people who don't know how to manage their money or impulses.
Some people get way too far into debt. And people are asking why the government isn't helping out.
Well, some people can't control the sexual urges. Why doesn't the government help them? If they act on those impulses inappropriately, they are punished, not helped.
How about people who can't control their use of alcohol? Is that the government's responsibility? Do we Federalize AA?
How about people who eat too much? Is there a Department of Homeland Diet?

We have laws regulating mortgage lending. In the end, though, it's the individual's responsibility to decide if they can afford it and it's the lender's responsibility to decide if the buyer is an acceptable risk.

The best rule of thumb for using credit I've ever heard was, "Never buy depreciating assets on credit." If you can stick to that - you'll be fine.

Hey cool.. many of the world markets posted gains.. This happened during the Stock Market Crash of 1929. Everyone was happy, all was well then the bottom dropped out. I wouldnt count them green eggies just yet folks.

"
In days leading up to Black Thursday the market was unstable. Periods of panic selling and high volumes of trading were interspersed with brief periods of rising prices and recovery. After the crash the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) recovered early in 1930, only to reverse again, reaching a low point of the great bear market in 1932. The market did not return to pre-1929 levels until late 1954,[2] and was lower at its July 8, 1932 level than it had been since the 1800s."

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 08-17-2007).]

Stocks Rebound on Discount Rate Cut



Friday August 17, 4:49 PM EDT

NEW YORK (AP) — Stocks soared Friday after the Federal Reserve did what Wall Street was clamoring for and cut its key discount rate a half percentage point. The move quelled investors' credit worries at least for the time being and sent the Dow Jones industrials up about 230 points.
The Fed — which had resisted lowering rates despite weeks of market volatility, and instead added nearly $120 billion in liquidity into the banking system — cut its discount rate to 5.75 percent from 6.25 percent. The central bank acknowledged that the stock market turbulence that has pulled the Dow by hundreds of points a day was posing a risk to economic growth.


Further down in that same thread.

If the market doesn't get that rate cut, Friday's gains may not stick, especially since it's likely there will be plenty more news in the coming days and weeks of further troubles in the lending industry. Any mention of problems at subprime lenders or funds that invested in mortgages has sent stocks skidding, and so have worries that tighter credit will stanch the flood of takeovers, which sent Wall Street to new highs earlier this year.

http://money.excite.com/jsp...ews_id=ap-d8r30kfg0&

It ain’t over till the fat lady sings.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by shermdizzle: the economy is heading down the crapper...were sellin are debt to countries like china and japan...were printing off money that doesn't exist...and we don't have a gold backed dollar anymore...not to mention that greenspan screwed us....credit is gonna be tightening so i would be wise with what you spend your money on....and don't get into debt...your credit is going to be even more important to you 5 yrs from now than it is now

Fashizel mynizel shermdizel.

Nows the time to file for bankruptcy

The thing that's scarier than our economy tanking is the fact that in today's global economy, if the U.S. economy tanks - most of the rest of the world will follow.

I doubt we're preparing for another crash like '29. I don't think the economy structure today will allow that type of crash to happen. But I guess the difference between a "crash" and a "correction" is how much money you have left at the end of the day. Like the man said, when someone else loses their job, it's a recession. When you lose YOUR job, it's a depression.

I think it was rayb who has the sig

"failing to prepare is preparing to for failure"

Just got back from Disneyland. The kids had a blast!

Anyway, It may not be scientific but an anictodal observation on the economy is worth noting: if the economy is hurting so badly then why was the Grand California Hotel booked solid? We had to wait an hour for our room to be ready even with 2 month old reservations. Why was the park PACKED to capacity? Why were there people there from ALL over the world? I heard German, Japanese, Russian, and a dozen other languages being spoken. Why were people standing in line for 30 minutes to pay $35 for pizza and $3.50 for a bottle of water? Why were the highways lined with Trucks carrying goods to everywhere? why was Highway 152 being widened at a cost of $35M (according to the sign)? Why did highway 5 have a new coat of asphalt for the entire 180 miles distance from Los Banos to the Grapvine? Why is it that I felt "average" driving a Mercedes E class in Southern California? Why was a Carl's Junior Burger place in the middle of the California desert standing room only?

If the economy is in trouble, I saw no evidence of it anywhere I looked. Combine that with the science and ....the economy is stronger than ever.

Sounds like you had a good time with the fam! good deal.

These jokers here won't ever be satisfied about anything while GW is in office, I think that is pretty much it period. After all he stole the election by winning fair and square and will never be forgiven by the liberal press, who in my opinion is and has been on a full court press to discredit anything positive that has happened since he was sworn in.

These same doom criers did not have anything to say about ALL THE ECONOMIC NUMBERS being up and the stock market booming over the last few years, except maybe things like those dam rich guys are taking advantage of us.
The market is a confidence game so I am positive that is a big part of why the reporting has been the way it is. Anything to win, and the rest of us be dammed. Most all reporting on the recent decline has said, market falls based on fears that______"

Really, take a good look at who has been the negative economy posters in this thread and that really says it all.

I have to echo Toddster. While I didn't hit up an amusement park I did notice the stores this morning were packed. Everything from the K-mart to Lord and Taylor had droves of people in them. Maybe its the delightful weather we've had today. Maybe its not that bad.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: Why were people standing in line for 30 minutes to pay $35 for pizza and $3.50 for a bottle of water? Why were

Because the're nuckin futs!!!

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Because the're nuckin futs!!!

No Bill, most ppl don't sit around waiting for the decline of the US and writing their manifestos.
The "longs" go whatever and go on vacation.

For someone as educated as you claim to be, surprised you'd start naysaying at the first blip..
But Kazinski was educated too.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: I have to echo Toddster. While I didn't hit up an amusement park I did notice the stores this morning were packed. Everything from the K-mart to Lord and Taylor had droves of people in them. Maybe its the delightful weather we've had today. Maybe its not that bad.

I just got back from New Orleans - you know, THAT New Orleans, the one that was damaged, and the place was very busy. And August is the low season for them, because of the heat. I flew my own plane (first time, long distance) and we stopped in Santa Fe and Durango for overnight stays. Both places were packed, and we barely got hotel rooms. Most hotels were full.

quote Originally posted by Uaana: No Bill, most ppl don't sit around waiting for the decline of the US and writing their manifestos. The "longs" go whatever and go on vacation.

Oblivious as the lemmings they truely are.. it's not like I dont know that already. Anyone paying 35 bucks for a 4.50 pizza is obviously not all that well versed in economics and price goudging.

quote For someone as educated as you claim to be, surprised you'd start naysaying at the first blip.. But Kazinski was educated too.

More vailed personal quips from the "mighter than thou" gallery.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Oblivious as the lemmings they truely are.. it's not like I dont know that already. Anyone paying 35 bucks for a 4.50 pizza is obviously not all that well versed in economics and price goudging.

Anyone who doesn't know about those kind of prices at amusement parks and such doesn't get out much.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: More vailed personal quips from the "mighter than thou" gallery.

It was a backhanded compliment dumbass.

and wtf are you talking about.. guess I'm one of those lemmings? Lemmings/pigs are day traders that chase points.. they get crushed and eaten. If you had the slightest clue about investing you'd know it's a better bet than SS or stuffing your mattress with food stamps.
PS no you don't need to be rich. I started with $100 and that $100 is worth just a hair shy of $15k but.. spose your pot is more important than investing in your future.
BTW I know you like riding the gravy train that us evil workers pay for.. but.. just a hint.. I wouldn't bet on SS

quote Originally posted by fierobear: Anyone who doesn't know about those kind of prices at amusement parks and such doesn't get out much.

Do you mean Get out to over priced, waste of money amusement parks? You would be correct, incomplete statements from jackasses are amusement enough for me... and it's free.. I like free.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Do you mean Get out to over priced, waste of money amusement parks? You would be correct, incomplete statements from jackasses are amusement enough for me... and it's free.. I like free.

Good to know that if we give you a dicta-phone and lock you in an empty room for a weekend that you can amuse yourself, Bill.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 08-18-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Uaanus: It was a backhanded compliment dumbass.

Really? Right back at ya

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Do you mean Get out to over priced, waste of money amusement parks?

The look on my 2 year old daughter's face when Woody (from Toy Story) walked on stage and then came down and took a picture with her was worth everything I own. Thankfully, It didn't cost that much. I got a bargain!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: The look on my 2 year old daughter's face when Woody (from Toy Story) walked on stage and then came down and took a picture with her was worth everything I own. Thankfully, It didn't cost that much. I got a bargain!

Thats what you call priceless.... But.... 35 bux for a pizza?? Jesus man!

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Do you mean Get out to over priced, waste of money amusement parks? You would be correct, incomplete statements from jackasses are amusement enough for me... and it's free.. I like free.

It's a good thing.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: It's a good thing.

Thanks Cliff Pennock

Ya we are in great shape.

U.S. Foreclosures Rise Sharply in July



Tuesday August 21, 8:19 AM EDT

LOS ANGELES (AP) — Foreclosure filings rose 9 percent from June to July and surged 93 percent over the same period last year, with Nevada, Georgia and Michigan accounting for the highest foreclosure rates nationwide, a research firm said Tuesday.
The filings include default notices, auction sale notices and bank repossessions. The figures are the latest measure of the ailing housing market, which has seen defaults and foreclosures soar as financially strapped borrowers have failed to make payments or find buyers.


http://money.excite.com/jsp...ews_id=ap-d8r5dhhg0&

Further down

"While 43 states experienced year-over-year increases in foreclosure activity, just five states — California, Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Georgia — accounted for more than half of the nation's total foreclosure filings," said RealtyTrac Chief Executive James J. Saccacio.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

wow - whats georgia doing in there? I can understand the other 4

This is silly, of course foreclosures are going to be at record levels! home ownership is at ALL TIME RECORD LEVELS so of course defaults will be up the same. Yup lot's of idiots are losing to bad contracts, but as said if you separate them (sub prime) it's a drop in the bucket to what is really happening.

123 is starting to look like a raving lunatic with his daily dosage of doom. I would suggest getting off your prescription of liberal agenda news and try to hang on to what little mental capacities you still may be clinging to.

quote Originally posted by Red88FF: This is silly, of course foreclosures are going to be at record levels! home ownership is at ALL TIME RECORD LEVELS so of course defaults will be up the same. Yup lot's of idiots are losing to bad contracts, but as said if you separate them (sub prime) it's a drop in the bucket to what is really happening. .....

also many people who dont understand how long 30 years actually is - especially to keep steady income.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: also many people who dont understand how long 30 years actually is - especially to keep steady income.

Hell, I think few people give it any thought at all! after all we are living in the right now era. I don't believe much of anyone goes into a house deal expecting to take a loan to term. If not to rape the equity for useless crap than to try and turn a quick buck.

Man do you realize how many idiots refinance their homes to pay off the cars the could not afford! heh a 30 year payment! oh but I they can write off the interest! heh you can't eat a write off, and for most of us that would only be around 25% of what we have to pay out to get it.

Sh!t, stupid people are the most dangerous force on the planet right now. These idiots swimming around in circles in their own drool are going to try and take us all down with them!

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Ya we are in great shape. U.S. Foreclosures Rise Sharply in July  Tuesday August 21, 8:19 AM EDT LOS ANGELES (AP) — Foreclosure filings rose 9 percent from June to July and surged 93 percent over the same period last year, with Nevada, Georgia and Michigan accounting for the highest foreclosure rates nationwide, a research firm said Tuesday. The filings include default notices, auction sale notices and bank repossessions. The figures are the latest measure of the ailing housing market, which has seen defaults and foreclosures soar as financially strapped borrowers have failed to make payments or find buyers. http://money.excite.com/jsp...ews_id=ap-d8r5dhhg0& Further down "While 43 states experienced year-over-year increases in foreclosure activity, just five states — California, Florida, Michigan, Ohio and Georgia — accounted for more than half of the nation's total foreclosure filings," said RealtyTrac Chief Executive James J. Saccacio.

OK, forget for a minute that you beleive everything you read in the newspapers, (the world is coming to an end if we don't all start riding bikes to work, the economy will collapse any day now, blah blah blah). Yep, afterall the news media has such a GREAT reputation for getting it right all the time.

But let's focus on one question, why is it that you blame big business in one breath and then when this article tells us that the banks have 1/2 of 1% of their entire portfolio in default (which they will recover at least .60 on the dollar in REO sales BTW) you want us to feel sorry for the banks?

Kid listen, if you want to understand the economy...REALLY understand the economy may I suggest that you walk away from the liberl websites and read a book. I'll even recommned a few books:

1) Economics in one lesson by Hazlitt (a must read for ANYBODY who wants a basic understanding of economics)
2) The Politically Incorrect guide to Capitalism by Murphy
3) Freedomnomics by Lott

We're fine. Get over it. I know you would LIKE to beleive the world is doomed or that we are going to lose in Iraq so you could sit back and say, "I told you so" but like it or not, the POSITIVE outcome is going to happen instead. Sorry.

Don't worry no matter who takes over in '09 this will be the senerio. If the economy goes down and a democrat is president, it will be GW's fault, if a republican is in office, it will be "I told you so, the R's are poor managers" If the economy takes off + and the democrat is president it will be see how great the Ds are in managing the economy or if the R is president, it is just a fluke.

quote Originally posted by Old Lar: Don't worry no matter who takes over in '09 this will be the senerio. If the economy goes down and a democrat is president, it will be GW's fault, if a republican is in office, it will be "I told you so, the R's are poor managers" If the economy takes off + and the democrat is president it will be see how great the Ds are in managing the economy or if the R is president, it is just a fluke.

Even people that understand this still can't help themselves from standing in their chosen camp. It is an eternal disease that has plagued our existence since the beginning of our group organization. Read any story or any history book and it is thrown right in your face. The answers are hidden right in plain view for as far as there has been written word in any culture and in any time. It has never changed. It never will change.

There is no incentive for the individual that is immune to stop this cycle. They have a choice. Help the cattle and get trampled over for their reward or use the stupid animals to their own advantage. Use the cattle to trample over their own obstacles. The cattle are always ready to oblige.
For the majority it is a no brainer. How can you really blame a politician from taking advantage of his cattle anyway? It isn't their fault they are not as stupid as the rest of society.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Even people that understand this still can't help themselves from standing in their chosen camp. It is an eternal disease that has plagued our existence since the beginning of our group organization. Read any story or any history book and it is thrown right in your face. The answers are hidden right in plain view for as far as there has been written word in any culture and in any time. It has never changed. It never will change. There is no incentive for the individual that is immune to stop this cycle. They have a choice. Help the cattle and get trampled over for their reward or use the stupid animals to their own advantage. Use the cattle to trample over their own obstacles. The cattle are always ready to oblige. For the majority it is a no brainer. How can you really blame a politician from taking advantage of his cattle anyway? It isn't their fault they are not as stupid as the rest of society.

yup. I loved the economy during "the clinton years"
but, I know that the economy then was due to policies Reagan started, and the problems we have today are due to Clinton
economic policies take a long long time to actually take affect. unless you actually physically grab everyones stuff, and re-distibute it. which, somehow - I dont see working out very well.

quote Originally posted by pokeyfiero: Even people that understand this still can't help themselves from standing in their chosen camp. It is an eternal disease that has plagued our existence since the beginning of our group organization. Read any story or any history book and it is thrown right in your face. The answers are hidden right in plain view for as far as there has been written word in any culture and in any time. It has never changed. It never will change. There is no incentive for the individual that is immune to stop this cycle. They have a choice. Help the cattle and get trampled over for their reward or use the stupid animals to their own advantage. Use the cattle to trample over their own obstacles. The cattle are always ready to oblige. For the majority it is a no brainer. How can you really blame a politician from taking advantage of his cattle anyway? It isn't their fault they are not as stupid as the rest of society.

This assumes that people side with a political party in the same way they side with a football team..because their friends do, or it is close and easy, etc. I side with the GOP because I understand economics and they more closely reflect an understanding of economic realities. Does that mean I like everything about them? Hell no. They had the White House and Both Houses of Congress and did nothing about immigration and a dozen other things that mattered to me and SUPPOSEDLY mattered to them too. But at least they say the right things even if they don't always act on them. The DNC is just off the planet. They have no concept of economics, no understanding of real leadership, and no vision.

Where is ole 123? things keep going up and up! not down down down, is anybody else surprised but him?
He is probably disappointed, heh. things are not looking gloomy.

The Asian markets are going to be hit a little harder yet though. What do you expect, they are known for their gambling habits.

Sorry to interrupt the gloom-n-doom, but...

Home Sales Rise, Factory Orders Up
Friday August 24, 11:35 am ET
By Jeannine Aversa, AP Economics Writer
Home Sales, Factory Orders Both Rise in Encouraging Signs for Economy


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sales of new homes perked up, while factory orders took off in July, raising hopes that the economy can safely weather financial turmoil that has shaken Wall Street.
The Commerce Department reported Friday that new-home sales rose 2.8 percent in July, after falling 4 percent in June. The increase in July lifted sales to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 870,000 units. A second report showed that orders to factories for big-ticket goods jumped 5.9 percent in July, the most in 10 months.

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Both reports were better than analysts had expected. They were forecasting home sales to fall and were calling for a much smaller, 1 percent gain in factory orders.

The housing report showing sales up in July comes as credit standards have been tightening on home mortgages. Credit problems took a turn for the worse in August, making it even harder for some would-be buyers to get financing. That means home sales in the coming months will likely show renewed weakness, economists said.

"We were getting some signs of stabilization in July. This was certainly a positive number," said Bernard Markstein, senior economist at the National Association of Home Builders. "If we could wipe out the events of the last several weeks, we would be rejoicing."

By region of the country, the improvement in sales in July reflected gains in the West and the South, where sales went up by 22.4 percent and 0.6 percent respectively. Sales, however, tumbled 24.3 percent in the Northeast and were down 0.9 percent in the Midwest.

Even with the overall increase in home sales for July, sales are down a deep 10.2 percent from a year ago, underscoring the toll of the housing slump.

The median price of a new home, meanwhile, was $239,500 in July, up from $238,100 in July a year ago. The median price means half sell for more and half sell for less. The average home price, however, dropped to $300,800 in July, down from $311,300 for the same month last year.

On Wall Street, the Dow Jones industrials were up around 25 points in early trading.

Friday's reports offered a spot of relief amid recent turbulence on Wall Street, which has darkened investors' feelings about the nation's financial prospects.

Fears that the worsening housing slump and credit crunch could hurt the economy have gripped Wall Street investors in recent weeks, causing stocks to swing wildly.

"The downside risks to growth have increased appreciably," Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and his colleagues concluded on Aug. 17. It was a much more sober assessment than they had offered just 10 days earlier when they met to examine economic conditions and interest rates. Against this backdrop, the central bank sliced the rate it charges banks for loans, a narrowly tailored move aimed at propping up sagging financial markets.

If problems persist, the Fed could opt for more aggressive action: reducing an important interest rate, called the federal funds rate, on or before Sept. 18, the Fed's next regularly scheduled meeting. The Fed hasn't cut this rate in four years. It is the Fed's main tool for influencing overall economic activity.

The funds rate, the interest banks charge each other on overnight loans, has stayed at 5.25 percent for more than a year. A cut to the funds rate would bring lower interest rates for millions of people and businesses.

In the manufacturing report, the 5.9 percent increases in new orders for "durable" goods followed a 1.9 percent rise in June. Durable goods are costly manufactured items expected to last at least three years.

Gains were widespread. Orders went up for machinery, automobiles, metal products, airplanes and communications equipment. That blunted a drop in demand for computers, as well as electrical equipment and appliances.

The pickup in demand for manufactured goods comes against a backdrop of a growing global economy, which has produced a bigger appetite for some U.S. exports.

Orders for automobiles rose 9.8 percent in July, the most since January 2003. Demand for primary metals, including steel, increased 7.9 percent, the biggest rise since July 2004. Orders for communications equipment soared 20.7 percent, the most since March 2006. Demand for airplanes for commercial use rose 12.6 percent. Airplane orders for defense purposes increased 15.8 percent in July.

Demand for computers, however, dropped 4 percent in July and orders for electrical equipment and appliances fell 1.2 percent -- two weak spots in an otherwise strong report.

Overall, the figures suggest that capital spending by businesses is weathering the financial storm so far. Credit problems, however, worsened in August, so upcoming reports on manufacturing and housing will offer more insight into companies' spending as well as the state of the housing market.

Spending by businesses and consumers is a key ingredient to the country's overall economic health.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: This assumes that people side with a political party in the same way they side with a football team..because their friends do, or it is close and easy, etc. I side with the GOP because I understand economics and they more closely reflect an understanding of economic realities. Does that mean I like everything about them? Hell no. They had the White House and Both Houses of Congress and did nothing about immigration and a dozen other things that mattered to me and SUPPOSEDLY mattered to them too. But at least they say the right things even if they don't always act on them. The DNC is just off the planet. They have no concept of economics, no understanding of real leadership, and no vision.

And by not taking a side against them both you condone one groups crimes by excuse that they are not as bad as the others.