My head is spinning here, in li'l ol'Spain!! We work 6 months of the year( no option as you know..seasonal work ), and earn between us , nett, 3300 euros a month..divide that in half, because that is to last a whole year )..we earn about 1.600 euros a month..$1950 a month.From that, we pay around $350 mortgage,$85 electricity, $40 water, $80 car insurance,$240 feed the dog and ourselves...gas is about $450 a month.private health plans..$100 a month...pension fund..$50 a month....phew!! don´t we do well!! Heheheh!!
Bread:$1.90
Milk: $6.00 gallon.
Meat..meat?? hehe! the dog gets that
Vegetables are cheap...we buy them locally.
Are we poor? Financially, yes..figuratively? Nah!! We are happy struggling!!
Nick
Edit to add: Thanks Red!!!!

Wow!! I'm rich!! I own page 7!! Errrm..anybody want to buy it??

[This message has been edited by fierofetish (edited 12-07-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Phranc: By 'get' you mean bust my butt to make sure everything is in order and by 'rose coloured' you me the colour of my tired eyes For years as I worked 16 hour days as a day labourer in order to save money to be more secure today. Then yes.

I honestly feel sorry for you... Life in America was not meant to be a hardship but rather a blessing. However, that blessing has diminished considerably over the last few decades... for some.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I honestly feel sorry for you... Life in America was not meant to be a hardship but rather a blessing. However, that blessing has diminished considerably over the last few decades... for some.

Who said life was supposed to be easy? Or even not a hardship? Where is that stated? Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of Happiness. Not the guarantee of Happiness. Not the lay back and let it all come to you Happiness. The PURSUIT OR HAPPINESS

A Pursuit can be daunting, challenging, and if obtained, even more rewarding because of it.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Who said life was supposed to be easy? Or even not a hardship? Where is that stated? Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of Happiness. Not the guarantee of Happiness. Not the lay back and let it all come to you Happiness. The PURSUIT OR HAPPINESS A Pursuit can be daunting, challenging, and if obtained, even more rewarding because of it. John Stricker

Thanks for that Mr. Stricker. Some people don't understand that you have to work for things in life. And the harder you work the better the reward is. Most of the time those people turn to drugs to dull the pain of their unhappy lives. They don't understand why they aren't happy they just know the drugs make them forget. Those are the same people who will cry about the rich are just greedy should be forced to "share" the money they make to the lazy. I'll never understand where the "entitlement attitude" comes from. And its becoming so pervasive that people want to extend it to everything. Little Johnny still gets a trophy even though he lost the game.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I honestly feel sorry for you... Life in America was not meant to be a hardship but rather a blessing. However, that blessing has diminished considerably over the last few decades... for some.

Throw the hardship part out the window and if people would understand why people still come here any way they can maybe they would understand the blessings they have.
Yeah things have gotten worse and the fault is ours entirely. As a whole we have no desire to even get up and vote so I can't even start to complain about an uneducated voter.

I have said it before; Politicians only give us what we ask for. I feel sorry for those that believe there is a possibility things are going to get better . I don't feel sorry for those that believe it isn't their fault.

One thing I know is certain. I am going to profit and circumvent and get what I can get for my own regardless of the rest of you. I am willing to play with the team or not. I won't play with the team just because I feel sorry for them though. 300 million of us here now and how many of them vote? How many of them want something for nothing? How many of them feel they are entitled.

I will help the struggling but I would just as soon drown the entitled. The only thing an American is entitled to is a chance to deserve what they have earned.

------------------

Though I am branded a devil in priests clothing I cast not the raiment I wear for I am not beholden to any flock with which any color has been given to me.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: Who said life was supposed to be easy? Or even not a hardship? Where is that stated?

I was responding to Mr. Aholes whining that he toiled forever, walked uphill to work in the winter with no shoes, in a snow storm, both ways. If you read his post you would have understood mine and be sure not to skip the FOR SOME.

quote Life, Liberty, and the PURSUIT of Happiness. Not the guarantee of Happiness. Not the lay back and let it all come to you Happiness. The PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS A Pursuit can be daunting, challenging, and if obtained, even more rewarding because of it. John Stricker

Exactly..
However that "PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS" is getting more and more difficult to attain each year. As the COL and taxes rise the challenges increase. Piece of cake if you are established already but not everyone understands that it is getting tougher by the minute... you included... Life was difficult but now you made it so life is just rose colored FOR SOME luck and fortune just isn't in their hand.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: I was responding to Mr. Aholes whining that he toiled forever, walked uphill to work in the winter with no shoes, in a snow storm, both ways. If you read his post you would have understood mine and be sure not to skip the FOR SOME.

That wasn't whining bill. If had read my post you'd have understood that. Every body else does. Can you at least try not being so stupid.

quote Originally posted by Phranc: That wasn't whining bill. If had read my post you'd have understood that. Every body else does.

Yeah... I merely applied Skanc logic in reply to.

quote Originally posted by Skanc: Can you at least try not being so stupid.

Sure, the moment you become more civil and lay off negative persoal opinions of specific people, I'll work on it.

quote Originally posted by 84Bill: Sure, the moment you become more civil and lay off negative persoal opinions of specific people, I'll work on it.

Stop crying bill. Why should I lay off the personal negative opinion of you? You have only your self to blame. You wont work on anything bill. It would take to much ..... work. Just go get high and make it all better.

[This message has been edited by Phranc (edited 12-08-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Phranc: Stop g bill. Why should I lay off the personal negative opinion of you?

What purpose does it serve? I'm sure EVERYONE on this forum knows VERY CLEARLY how you feel about me but you harp and complain as if your opinion will change something.. It wont. The issues I bring up will remain unchanged. IOW, Hate the game, not the payers.

quote You have only your self to blame.

Not entirely true. There are many factors involved in an individuals life that determine success. There is not one standard rule of thumb that can be applied as a "fix all" bandaid.

quote You wont work on anything bill.

That IS YOUR OPINION however, that is not the truth. I work very hard and earned everything I have. I am also very very fortunate in other areas that others did not have the benefit of receiving. I realize how fortunate I am, I still root for the underdog even though I know I am the furthest thing from one and that is the critical difference between the two of us.

quote It would take to much ..... work. Just go get high and make it all better.

Sad fact of that statement Phranc is that there are some people out there who do that and the reasons are as varied as the individual. If you believe me to be one of them then that is your opinion... and you are more than welcome to it.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-08-2007).]

quote Originally posted by jstricker: If Ethanol is "why" food is so expensive, perhaps you could explain why it is that the price of corn was higher in '96 than it is now, when there was almost no ethanol production back in '96 compared to today. John Stricker

The line you quoted was a "tagline" meant to introduce my discussion, to provide the reader with a "topic sentence", which I then explained in detail in the rest of my post, which was meant to demonstrate that the high price of corn (and thus, food) is due to the law of supply and demand.

As I explained further on in my post, the government is subsidizing ethanol plants. More ethanol plants are being built. More ethanol plants means a higher demand for corn. This higher demand--as I said in my first post--means more dollars are chasing each bushel of corn. Assuming that the demand for other uses of corn has remained more-or-less constant--which is not unreasonable--the addition of ethanol production to the present situation has increased demand for corn.

Higher demand for corn means higher prices for corn--prices that are higher than they would otherwise be. Even with a bumper crop.

We use corn for a lot of things, including feeding the animals that we eat. So the higher price for corn drives up the prices of other foods.

Okay?

My post was not meant to be critical of any position; I am just explaining that there is increased demand for a basic staple of the American diet--in one way or another--and even in a banner year the price for said commodity is GOING to be higher because there is so much added demand.

How many bushels of corn fit in a covered hopper railcar? How many covered hoppers does a typical ethanol plant require per day to continue operation? Trains magazine discussed, not long ago, the issue of servicing an ethanol plant via rail. They mentioned a plant in Iowa which uses about seven carloads of grain (typically corn) per day.

Ethanol Producer Magazine says, "The United States currently has 113 operational ethanol plants with more than 5.4 billion gallons of production capacity. Fifty-six new plants under construction are expected to add nearly an additional 4 billion gallons of capacity, not including existing plants undergoing expansion." 113 plants using--let us say--7 carloads of grain every day, five days per week, fifty weeks per year....that is a LOT of grain.

Why was corn so much costlier in 1996? I expect that the high price you cite in 1996 was also due to the law of supply and demand. What was the harvest like in 1996? Was it a big harvest like this past year? I don't know what drove the price so high in '96--but I DO know that this year, it's because the government is paying people to get into the ethanol business, and you can't make ethanol by filling a vat with water and wishing real hard. It takes yeast and it takes some kind of carbohydrates, and sweet corn is full of carbohydrates.

Ed

I love this ethanol is the problem attitude.

Blame it on the ethanol plants.

Does anyone here who has stated those things ever even looked into the making of ethanol.

Have a plant near them?

Buy it?

Make it?

Even have any idea how to make it?

First please find a book and read it.

The best and most useful crop for making ethanol is………………………………............................................................................................................... Sugar Beets.

You get the most ethanol per acre.

So now I ask those who have made the statement that the cost of food has anything to do with ethanol. Please explain why a farmer who barely gets by to begin with would grow a crop that would give them a lower price per acre?

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by edhering: Why was corn so much costlier in 1996? I expect that the high price you cite in 1996 was also due to the law of supply and demand. What was the harvest like in 1996? Was it a big harvest like this past year? I don't know what drove the price so high in '96--but I DO know that this year, it's because the government is paying people to get into the ethanol business, and you can't make ethanol by filling a vat with water and wishing real hard. It takes yeast and it takes some kind of carbohydrates, and sweet corn is full of carbohydrates. Ed

No, Ed, you don't KNOW that, you THINK that. The two are not the same.

ALL grain prices are higher this year. Would you care to know WHY? Well, let me tell you.............

The grains, ALL grains, are food. Either people food or animal food. Some, like wheat, are primarily people food, but can be used for animal food. Others, like corn and soybeans, are primarily animal food that can be used for people food.

Whatever the most common use, it is all protein in the end. We feed the livestock corn, wheat, grain sorghum beans, sugar beets (sometimes), and on, and on, but what we're REALLY feeding to them is PROTEIN. Remember that. Wheat has about 13% protein. Corn about 10.5%. Grain Sorghum about 8%. Soybeans about 40%. Generally speaking, these are averages. You can have higher or lower depending on weather, variety, etc., but these are decent averages. Let's look at the price today.

Wheat $9.49/bu
Beans $11.19/bu
Corn $3.99/bu
Grain Sorghum (not traded on any exchange, cash price adjusted for basis) $4.12/bu

If we figure out what the price per pound of protein for each is, we come up with:

Wheat $1.22 per pound
Beans $0.53 per pound
Corn $0.67 per pound
Grain Sorghum $0.89 per pound

But we're not quite done yet. Some grains are more readily digested by animals eating it than others. Wheat tends to get very dusty and gummy and is not a "preferred" feed, but if it's cheap enough, it will be fed, and it has a conversion rate of about 50%. Beans are the most digestible of any with a conversion of close to 80%, if fed alone but it can't be due to other issues that I'm not going into. It works great as a supplement, but not as a primary feed. Corn has just an average conversion rate and similar to that of Wheat at 55%. Grain Sorghum is better digested than Wheat and about the same as Corn at 58%, more or less. If we adjust again for the conversion we come to.........

Wheat $2.44
Beans $0.67
Corn $1.22
Grain Sorghum $1.53

You're right, it IS supply and demand, but it's not CORN supply and demand, it's Wheat. We are ending this year (world wide, not speaking locally) with a disastrous world wheat crop. The millers KNOW, based on production, that if they don't have their wheat booked now, through next spring, they may not have any wheat to mill by then OR, because of supply and demand, it will cost them even more than it does now (potentially) if ANY bad news about the '08 crop year comes out. Because of the huge demand for wheat for human food it is being bid up to 200% on a protein basis by the millers. The rest of the grains are staying fairly typically priced.

Beans have always run at about a 50% discount in protein cost to corn because of their very high protein content. Corn and Grain Sorghum have always been very, very close, and even this year with your assertion that the Ethanol plants are driving up the price, it's still the second cheapest form of protein out there right now. There is a huge stock of corn in the US at the moment from the big harvest, but when the Wheat and Bean markets move, the corn market will move with them because one will not get completely out of line with the other, normally. The bean crop this year, used mostly for supplemental feeding, was short. Not terribly short, but short. It's value as a protein supplement went up because it's still the cheapest form out there.

You also assume that what comes out of the ethanol plants is just alcohol. You're wrong. We have an ethanol plant here locally that uses Grain Sorghum. It's highly efficient, uses waste heat from a local power plant's gas turbines for about 40% of it's energy requirements (the cookers), and is running 24/7. It has a conversion rate of about 3 gallons of ethanol for every 1 bushel of grain sorghum fed into it. In addition to that, it has an output of "distiller's grain" of about 50% of the input, so out of that process we're getting 3 gallons of ethanol and 25 or so pounds of dry distillers grain. So what is the distiller's grain used for? Livestock feed. And it's very GOOD livestock feed. In fact, the protein content of the distiller's grain is about 16% and it's highly digestible.

So, break it down. We feed the plant 1 bushel of grain sorghum. After processing, out comes 3 gallons of ethanol and 25 pounds of distillers grain, which amounts to about 4 pounds of protein. Remember we started with a crop that had 8% protein and a bushel contained 4.48 pounds of protein, unprocessed. That means that after processing, that bushel of grain sorghum has lost less than 1/2 or 1 pound of it's protein, or about 10%.

The conversion rates of corn to ethanol, as well as the by products, are similar. We use in the US right now, about 25% of our corn for ethanol, but of that 25% only about 10% or the feed value is lost so we actually are using (as in taking out of possible use as cattle feed) about 2.5% or our corn protein production. That, Ed, is an insignificant amount, at least in a year like this one with large corn production numbers.

To say that the use of corn for Ethanol is the cause of high food prices is simply wrong. Period. It's impact on demand is miniscule. OTHER demand factors, like virtually no available wheat, are far, far more weighing on the grain markets right now. Lest we forget, the US Dollar is also very low right now as compared to other currencies, historically speaking. What does this mean? I means that a foreign country like Egypt, for instance, can now by much more wheat for the same amount of THEIR currency than they could have a year ago. This is great for our exports, but not so good for our local prices here in the US as it causes lower supplies of commodities HERE, as they get sent off shore, than we would have otherwise.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: I love this ethanol is the problem attitude. Blame it on the ethanol plants. Does anyone here who has stated those things ever even looked into the making of ethanol. Have a plant near them? Buy it? Make it? Even have any idea how to make it? First please find a book and read it. The best and most useful crop for making ethanol is………………………………............................................................................................................... Sugar Beets. You get the most ethanol per acre. So now I ask those who have made the statement that the cost of food has anything to do with ethanol. Please explain why a farmer who barely gets by to begin with would grow a crop that would give them a lower price per acre?

Steve, are you asking why more farmers aren't planting sugar beets?

If that's the question that you need to wear the label "Hobby Farmer"

In the U.S., almost all sugar beets are grown in the northern states because of the short growing season needed. The Red River Valley between MN and ND is where a majority of the beets come from and the beets grown there have a higher sugar content than beets grown anywhere else.

Just like any other crop, you really need the right climate, soil and rain fall conditions. Farmers like John just can't feasibly grow sugar beets on his land.

BTW Steve........Yes there is an ethanol plant in my hometown. My father was instrumental in getting it started in my hometown. It actually costs more than it's worth to produce ethanol from corn. But, corn is currently the most readily available crop and feasible crop in the U.S. to make ethanol.

Which is also why they build the appropriate plants in an area. We don't have enough water to make good dryland corn, and no irrigation capability, so most people raise and feed Grain Sorghum, so the plants in this area are designed to convert Grain Sorghum (something else the ethanol naysayers don't tell you when they tell you all the corn is going to ethanol. Our plant has never used corn and can't, without major modifications). In Corn country they'll be built for corn. In other areas whatever the local crop may be.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by aceman: Steve, are you asking why more farmers aren't planting sugar beets? If that's the question that you need to wear the label "Hobby Farmer" In the U.S., almost all sugar beets are grown in the northern states because of the short growing season needed. The Red River Valley between MN and ND is where a majority of the beets come from and the beets grown there have a higher sugar content than beets grown anywhere else. Just like any other crop, you really need the right climate, soil and rain fall conditions. Farmers like John just can't feasibly grow sugar beets on his land. BTW Steve........Yes there is an ethanol plant in my hometown. My father was instrumental in getting it started in my hometown. It actually costs more than it's worth to produce ethanol from corn. But, corn is currently the most readily available crop and feasible crop in the U.S. to make ethanol.

Ace I may not have hundreds of acres of land but there is something I know that you obviously don’t, with all your industrial farming knowledge.

You produce more ethanol per acre of sugar beets than any other crop.

You can grow 2 seasons of the beets in southern areas.

And you really hate being wrong, or admitting it.

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Please, Steve, send me a link on those "facts". ........About them grown in the south and 2 growing seasons worth.

BTW, Yes, Steve, I know all about sugar beets. And, I've stated before you ..in this very thread ....about sugar beets being the best for ethanol.My roommate in Minnesota 15 years ago had 1000 acres in just sugar beets.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 12-09-2007).]

Edited to add link.

Look at table2. What produces more ethanol per acre, than corn?

Lets see
Corn............................. 214 gallons per acre
Potatoes....................... 299 gallons per acre
Sweet beets.................. 412 gallons per acre, per harvest
Sorghum cane................ 500 gallons per acre
Sugar cane......................500 gallons per acre
Jerusalem artichokes .....1200 gallons per acre


http://journeytoforever.org...h3.html#alcoholyield

------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 12-09-2007).]

I need to plant Jerusalem artichokes and get rich! RICH I TELLS YA !!!!!

Steve, I'm not arguing with you about the high yields of ethanol that beets can produce. I've known that for years. I want a link to growing sugar beets in the south and being able to get two growing seasons from them...

There's a reason we, in the U.S., primarily use corn for ethanol. It's availablility throughout the country.

Sugar beets are grown primarily in North Dakota, Minnesota, Michigan Oregon, Montana, and Idaho.

They have had great success in far southern California. But that's the only real success south of those northern states.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 12-09-2007).]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beet_sugar

In most temperate climates, beets are planted in the spring and harvested in the autumn. At the northern end of its range, growing seasons as short as 100 days can produce commercially viable sugarbeet crops. In warmer climates, such as in California's Imperial Valley, sugarbeets are a winter crop, being planted in the autumn and harvested in the spring. In recent years, Syngenta AG has developed the so-called tropical sugar beet. It allows the plant to grow in tropical and subtropical regions. Beets are planted from a small seed; 1 kg of beet seed comprises 100,000 seeds and will plant over a hectare of ground (1 lb will plant about an acre).

Being grown in the winter in southern California would allow for a second crop and even a third if they wanted.

With a 100 day growth period it would be possible to get 2 or even 3 harvests in a southern climate. None of the south do because there are more cash crops for those states than just those.
------------------
Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

[This message has been edited by 84fiero123 (edited 12-09-2007).]

"In most temperate climates, beets are planted in the spring and harvested in the autumn. At the northern end of its range, growing seasons as short as 100 days can produce commercially viable sugarbeet crops"

That DOES NOT EQUATE to getting 2-3 plantings and crops a year! The article does not say that because it's not that simple.

That states that it's a good match for the northern climate because they have a short growing season and there is a sugar beet that can be grown in 100 days IN THAT CLIMATE.

http://digital.library.unt....alink/meta-dc-1503:1

Look at page 5.

The sugar beet is now produced where the growing season is approximately 5 months and the mean temperature is 70 degrees F for the three summer months and slightly lower in the spring and fall. Sugar Beets DO NOT GROW WELL IN PERIODS WHEN THE MAXIMUM TEMPERATURES ARE ABOUT 100 DEGREES F. Very hot weather early in the growing season is not favorable to them.

THUS WHY THEY ARE A WINTER CROP IN THAT AREA OF CALIFORNIA AND THEY CAN'T HAVE 2-3 CROPS IN A YEAR!


Stick to breeding dogs and raising chickens and goats, Steve.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 12-09-2007).]

Your numbers are off, Steve. (at least according to USDA)

Average Yield for Corn is about 145 bu/acre which is 4.1 tons per acre.
Average Yield for Sugar Beets is about 20 tons per acre.

The ethanol conversion rate for corn is about 2.75 gallons per bushel or 400 gallons per acre, on average
The sugar beet conversion rate is about 24.8 gallons per ton, or 496 gallons per acre, on average.

It's more efficient at producing ethanol because the starch doesn't have to be converted into sugar first, but not by the amount that your sources indicate.

Like everything else, beets are grown where the market is and the market is the sugar beet processing facilities. In the US, there are 23 sugar beet factories.

California 2
Colorado 2
Idaho 3
Michigan 4
Minnesota 4
Montana 2
Nebraska 1
North Dakota 3
Wyoming 2

Total 23

Beets are grown in northern climates, cane in the southern more tropical climates. There used to be a C&H Plant at Goodland, KS, but it's been closed for years now. Beets simply became unprofitable as compared to corn. While I'm sure it's possible to double crop beets, the only place with a climate that would favor that would be California and the value of beets per acre is very small compared to the value of other crops like vegetables that could be grown on the same acre.

While beets will yield more, it costs more in facilities to process ethanol from them. On average, it costs about $1.50/gallon of capacity to build a 20 million gallon per year plant to process corn and a plant to process beets costs $2.15/gallon of capacity to build the same size plant. So if you wanted to build a 20 mgy beet plant it would cost about $43 million dollars as compared to $30 million for a corn plant. The value for feedstocks from the by-products of beets is much less as well and the huge number of cattle feedlots in SW Kansas is another reason there are so many new ethanol plants going in there.

There's more to the equation than how many gallons can come from an acre.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 84fiero123: Edited to add link. Look at table2. What produces more ethanol per acre, than corn? Lets see Corn............................. 214 gallons per acre Potatoes....................... 299 gallons per acre Sweet beets.................. 412 gallons per acre, per harvest Sorghum cane................ 500 gallons per acre Sugar cane......................500 gallons per acre Jerusalem artichokes .....1200 gallons per acre http://journeytoforever.org...h3.html#alcoholyield

Edited to add.........

Your source is talking about what is possible from small, non-commercial production facilities. As in Home Made. That's not the same as a modern distillation plant designed to do just one thing. It's also using grossly outdated research to get the amounts for alcohol per ton. The research used there is ** Jacobs, P. B., and H. P. Newton, U. S. Dept. Agr, Misc. Pub. 327, December, 1938. Things have changed quite a bit since 1938, Steve. Finally, on your post, you added in the words "per harvest" after the yield of "sweet beets". That was not on your original link.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 12-09-2007).]

John, yes, it would have been correct to say that more beets come from the Red River Valley than from any other area of the country.

Prices jump more than expected
Higher gasoline prices bring big jump in overall prices, larger rise in core prices than forecast.

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Prices paid by consumers rose faster in November, lifted by a spike in the price of gasoline, as the government's key inflation measure came in higher than Wall Street forecasts.

The Consumer Price Index, the key measure of inflation on the retail level, rose 0.8 percent in the month, up from the 0.3 percent rise in October. Economists surveyed by Briefing.com had forecast a 0.6 percent rise in overall prices.

It was the biggest jump in prices since September 2005, when gasoline prices surged higher in the wake of Hurricane Katrina. There was a similar impact of higher gasoline prices this time.

The report showed overall energy prices up 5.7 percent, with gasoline up 9.3 percent. In addition food prices, another recent driver of inflation, were up 0.3 percent.

The so-called core CPI was up 0.3 percent, even though that more closely watched measure strips out the volatile food and energy prices. Economists had forecast a 0.2 percent rise, which was the same increase posted in October. Among the core items seeing prices jump was clothing, where prices jumped 0.8 percent, and medical care, which rose 0.4 percent. It was the largest one-month jump in apparel prices in more than nine years.

Housing also posted a 0.4 percent increase despite widespread reports on home value declines because the report does not measure owner-occupied home prices to estimate this cost. Instead it uses a formula based upon rents.

The core CPI is now up 2.3 percent in the last 12 months, up from a 2.2 percent 12-month gain in the previous report. The Federal Reserve is generally believed to want to see core prices rise 1 to 2 percent a year, so an increase outside of its so-called comfort zone would seem to reduce the chance that the Fed will make further rate cuts soon.

The Fed has cut rates at its last three meetings, citing the risk of an economic slowdown created by problems in the housing and credit markets. But the last cut on Tuesday was a quarter percentage point, when many investors were expecting a half-point cut, and stocks went into a sharp decline after that announcement. U.S. stocks opened sharply lower Friday on the latest inflation reading.

The chance of another quarter-percentage point interest rate cut in January, as predicted by the fed funds futures, fell to 84 percent after the CPI report, from 100 percent before the report.

"No wonder Feddies cite inflation risks," said economist Robert Brusca, citing the statement the central bank released when it trimmed interest rates Tuesday. "Still the economy is weak so we'll see what they do."

Gus Faucher, director of macroeconomics for Moody's Economy.com, said he believes the price jump in Friday's report is not something the Fed needs to worry about, given the the impact volatile oil prices had.

"I don't expect to see much pass through to core CPI," he said. "With economy remaining soft, I don't think we have to worry about businesses raising prices much."

But Rich Yamarone, director of economic research at Argus Research, said there is much more growth and underlying core inflation than has been assumed by many economists. He said many companies in consumer products, food and air travel have been announcing price increases due to a combination of higher costs and continuing high demand for their product.

"All those price hike announcements we saw in the last three, six or nine months are now coming home to roost," he said. "These reports are not coming in on softer side, they're all coming out much stronger than expectations. Consumers are continuing to spend money. It should diminish the chance of a recession, not increase it."

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-15-2007).]

"In addition food prices, another recent driver of inflation, were up 0.3 percent. "

That's not enough increase to be newsworthy. Even if that was a constant rate of food prices going up, it'd be 3.6% this year. And that .3% is not a constant.

Go back to your hole in the ground, Bill


I already showed that even a high increase in food prices (4.5%?) would equal out to maybe $20-$30/month for a family of 4.

quote Originally posted by Spaceman: I'm trolling.

Maybe so spacedouche but the article isnt about the increase in food alone but rather the overall CPI increase which food and clothing has suddenly became a factor in.

Then don't post it in a cost of food is rising thread.

dumbass!

Just wondering what exactly is the average persons wage?

I mean we are talking about the average person here. Not someone who is making thousands of dollars a month.

Just what is the, what is it called? Poverty level wage.

I don’t think everyone is making 10 dollars an hour everywhere. Many make much less, many make more. And don’t give me they need to go back to school crap. These are real people making real wages.

So someone with a faster connection than my dial up find what these are. I don’t have time.

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

Average wage per person is $17.63/hr

$35,000/year

For your math, Steve:

Husband and wife both working............Average income would be $70,000/year or just under $6000/month before deductions.

http://money.cnn.com/2007/1...s_november/index.htm

"The average hourly wages rose 8 cents, or 0.5 percent, to $17.63. It was the biggest one-month percentage gain since April 2006 and well above the forecast of a 0.3 percent rise, or the revised 0.1 percent increase, for October."

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 12-15-2007).]

No Ace emotion is what really matters not hard facts and numbers. The maths are meaningless I tells ya! They dont twist the truth and tug at the hart strings.

quote Originally posted by aceman: Average wage per person is $17.63/hr $35,000/year For your math, Steve: Husband and wife both working............Average income would be $70,000/year or just under $6000/month before deductions. http://money.cnn.com/2007/1...s_november/index.htm "The average hourly wages rose 8 cents, or 0.5 percent, to $17.63. It was the biggest one-month percentage gain since April 2006 and well above the forecast of a 0.3 percent rise, or the revised 0.1 percent increase, for October."

And the average income of those on a fixed income?

Retired, disabled. Because that is what started this thread.

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by Forum Nazi: "In addition food prices, another recent driver of inflation, were up 0.3 percent. " That's not enough increase to be newsworthy. Even if that was a constant rate of food prices going up, it'd be 3.6% this year. And that .3% is not a constant. Go back to your hole in the ground, Bill I already showed that even a high increase in food prices (4.5%?) would equal out to maybe $20-$30/month for a family of 4.

Blow me.

No Steve. I took what she said as an expression.

Go get food stamps if you need them with your fixed income. If you're unsure how...........Ask Bill.

Otherwise, I showed that one can eat WELL for under $30/day for a family of 4. I'll gladly show you how your family of 3 can eat good meals for under $16/day or around $500/month.

The average wage posted above would also mean that if you weren't hobby farming, your wife should be able to find an average paying job of about $32,000/year and thus, you wouldn't be fixed income.

[This message has been edited by aceman (edited 12-15-2007).]

Well seeing the average disability income for a Vet. Is,

For fiscal year (FY) 2004, approximately 2.5 million veterans in the 50 states received disability compensation benefits totaling $20.9 billion. These benefits reflect claims decisions made during the past 60 plus years by VA employees located at 57 regional offices nationwide. As of the end of FY 2004, the national average annual payment per veteran was $8,378. Average annual payments by state ranged from a low of $6,961 in Illinois to a high of $12,004 in New Mexico. Essentially this means that, on average, veterans in New Mexico receive $5,043 more per year than veterans in Illinois. For analysis purposes, we extracted 6 years of data (FY 1999 through FY 2004) from VBA information systems. We grouped the highest six average payment states and the lowest six average payment states, which we referred to as the “high cluster” and the “low cluster.”

http://veterans.house.gov/h...20-05/jwooditch.html


That average is around $698 a month. How does that figure in your food scale?

Ace can you even talk to anyone a be civil?

Or is that against your religion or something?

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Technology is great when it works,
and one big pain in the ass when it doesn't.
Detroit iron rules all the rest are just toys.

quote Originally posted by Spaceman: That response would be paraphrased to : "Ace is right again."

You truly are a delusional egocentric douchebag.