There was a statement about Daddy Bush and not doing well in his war on terrorism. He didn't wage a war on terrorism. He had a specific goal of getting Iraq out of Kuwait. To label that a war on terrorism is a COMPLETE inaccuracy.

If it was a war on terrorism, he would have just gone on to Baghdad and finished the job. The problem, for those of you that are just ENAMORED with involving the U.N and the global community, was that Daddy Bush LISTENED to the U.N., who told him they didn't want him to proceed. In retrospect, he wishes he wouldn't have listened.

I get SO SICK of people criticizing President Bush's intelligence. When are you "superiorly intelligent to Bush" people going to realize that after a certain level of intellect, MORE intelligence becomes irrelevant and DECISION MAKING, CONVICTION, and RESOLVE, are what becomes important. President Bush has adequate intelligence to handle the problems. What he has, that Clinton NEVER had, and that Gore would never have had, was conviction and resolve.

Bush had to sit there and listen to the critics, whiners, and second guessers for months while his people were doing the work. He SAID, all you intellectuals, that it would take time.

HE had the resolve to stick it out vs. some (I'm Back) who post 9-11 wanted the U.S. to attack, then got it, then when things didn't happen immediately (like Bush said it wouldn't)and things started getting messy, flip-flopped and decided to "get out of that region", "declare peace", and turn tail.

"Get out of that region" is a euphemism. It means acquiesce to the arabs and abandon Israel. In other words, let the arabs tell you what to do or else. In other words, be bullied and ordered around.

Declare peace...until attacked. We WERE attacked. Oh, well, I mean NEXT time. Yeah, Bill Clinton. And the NEXT time, and the NEXT time. World trade center. Foreign barracks. The Cole. World trade center again.

And Iraq having a wimpy army? And yet to insult the military by criticizing the army for allowing 400 deaths against such wimps? Well, about half were in the initial battle, which is amazing. But might one consider that Iraq's army only LOOKED like wimps because of the brilliance of the U.S. army?

And the war on terror isn't finished...Al Qaeda is still intact. It is? How did you know that? Because although I'm sure there are parts that still exist, and should be hunted, are they intact? What have they done since Bush started the war on terror? In Iraq against the army-maybe it was them. And the British embassy.

But no. We should just understand them, and leave them alone, and they will leave us alone. You must be a disciple of Prime Minister Chamberlin.

I agonize over the 400 american soldiers, PLUS the ones permanently maimed. But Bush, his administration, and the military have performed in a spectacular fashion all the while under a barrage of liberal second-guessing and criticism. Although there is much work to be done, much has been done, including capturing Saddam Hussein. Congratulations U.S. army and President Bush.

Amen brother...

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: ...

You are right, it's a lot easier to Armchair-Quarterback every decision made by every government.

But that doesn't mean I have to LIKE them decisions

My question: Ok, so now that you have Saddam, what are you going to do with him? Give him to the Iraqi people to draw-and-quarter him? Or does the US have a more humane solution?

Good question, I've been waiting for something on that as well.

One thing about you, although we don't agree very often, you're not one to run and hide when things don't go your way and you raise many very valid questions.

Right now, there's no doubt that the Iraqis are expecting and should have the opportunity to try Saddam in an Iraqi court. I read something that said they'd like to do it within weeks, not months. When that is done, I think they'll have to allow him to also be tried in a world court, probably at the Hague, for international crimes, like the invasion of Kuwait. This would probably be the only thing that saves his life.

The Iraqi's probably wouldn't HAVE to let him leave the country, although we could force him to. It's really a quandry for the US and would have been much easier if Saddam had actually put up his last stand like his boys did instead of ending up the whimpering coward that he turned out to be.

John Stricker

PS: Forgot to ask, what would YOU do with him? Does he deserve any humane treatment? Do you think it would be better if he was stoned, shot, drawn and quartered, or lethal injection?

Personally, I think he deserves to die and should. Probably by Firing Squad. Fortunately, I don't get to decide.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: You are right, it's a lot easier to Armchair-Quarterback every decision made by every government. But that doesn't mean I have to LIKE them decisions My question: Ok, so now that you have Saddam, what are you going to do with him? Give him to the Iraqi people to draw-and-quarter him? Or does the US have a more humane solution?

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 12-16-2003).]

What would I do with him? Remember, I'm not a proponent of Capital punishment. And delivering him into
vengeful hands would be being no better than what he was doing, since I doubt they would make his short
stay before the squad comfortable.

If they DO decide to execute him, he deserves human treatment. That means dignity, too. Even if he lived
like a coward, he should be allowed to die like a man. Otherwise, again, you are no better than him.

I think a nice exile, followed closely (ie., the length of time it takes to drive from airport) by a nice,
long stay in an uncomfortable prison. If he behaves, maybe a transfer into a minimum security prison after
20 years or so.

Again, this is just me, but...........

If that's your idea of being humane, and I'm the subject of your humanity, then please just put a bullet in the back of my head. Close to the base of the skull, please.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Mach10: What would I do with him? Remember, I'm not a proponent of Capital punishment. And delivering him into vengeful hands would be being no better than what he was doing, since I doubt they would make his short stay before the squad comfortable. If they DO decide to execute him, he deserves human treatment. That means dignity, too. Even if he lived like a coward, he should be allowed to die like a man. Otherwise, again, you are no better than him. I think a nice exile, followed closely (ie., the length of time it takes to drive from airport) by a nice, long stay in an uncomfortable prison. If he behaves, maybe a transfer into a minimum security prison after 20 years or so.

Personally, I think he should be executed by firing squad. But only after he gets to see them slaughter a pig, soak the bullets he's about to be executed with in the blood, and see his grave prepared by lining it with the remains of the pig. Then shoot his ass with the bloody bullets, and toss him in that grave with the pig.
The only really sad part of this is, it would be a shame to bury a pig in the same grave with Hussein....poor pig....

If you don't know the relevence of all this, look into how Muslims regard pigs....

One question that I have, which may have been touched upon earlier. I didn't read all that closely. There
was a LOT of human feces being hurled around

WHAT, exactly, does capturing Saddam MEAN? Does anybody here honestly beleive that the attacks will just
stop because their ex-leader was caught? Let's face it; Saddam hasn't had anthing to do with government or
attacks since you routed his army nearly a year ago.

Heh, I wonder what was more demoralizing? Saddam running like a cowardly ***** when it started getting heavy,
or saddam being fished out of a mud-hole?

Well, according to reports today the papers found on him in a briefcase, as well as the money, show that he did have something to do with some of the attacks, but I'll agree that it probably wasn't much involvment and most of the money was there to fund his getaway.

As to what it means, it means quite a bit. For one thing, many of the prisoners in his administration have refused to talk about anything and have told the coalition that they WON'T talk until Saddam is either dead or captured. There is also a certain % of the attackers that are doing it out of loyalty to Saddam and this should go a LONG way to helping them make up their mind to just fade into the background.

More importantly than all that, though, is the people of Iraq now know that Saddam is gone and will NOT be coming back, something that up to this point they simply haven't been able to grasp. We really have no idea what it would be like to live under a totalitarian dictatorship as brutal as Saddam's for a quarter of a century. Many, if not MOST, of the people alive in Iraq today have never known anything else as they were born after he came to power. Think about that and let it sink in for a minute. How eager would YOU be to do things that you know would get you killed when Saddam came back and in the back of your mind, as long as he's loose, you have the idea that he WILL be back.

His capture is certainly not a cure-all for the problems in Iraq and it won't stop the attacks, but it is a very necessary and big step along the way, probably the most significant step since Baghdad fell.

John Stricker

Oh, and I actually kind of like Celine Dion. Just, please, God, no Anne Murray. Two or three times of having to listen to Snowbird in captivity would have me hanging myself by my own testicles.

quote Originally posted by Mach10: One question that I have, which may have been touched upon earlier. I didn't read all that closely. There was a LOT of human feces being hurled around WHAT, exactly, does capturing Saddam MEAN? Does anybody here honestly beleive that the attacks will just stop because their ex-leader was caught? Let's face it; Saddam hasn't had anthing to do with government or attacks since you routed his army nearly a year ago. Heh, I wonder what was more demoralizing? Saddam running like a cowardly ***** when it started getting heavy, or saddam being fished out of a mud-hole?

Fair enough. Good to see that some people have reasonable expectations about the meaning of such a captor.

Problem is, it's going to be a test of resolve to stay put in Iraq... With Saddam gone, it may bring into question the legitimacy of the occupation.

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe:

“There was a statement about Daddy Bush and not doing well in his war on terrorism. He didn't wage a war on terrorism. He had a specific goal of getting Iraq out of Kuwait. To label that a war on terrorism is a COMPLETE inaccuracy.”

Well maybe if he had waged a war on terrorism we wouldn’t be here. Just as you can say it’s Clinton’s fault for not pursuing Saddam and OBL after the first WTC attack, it could easily be assumed that Bush could have preempted both attacks.

“If it was a war on terrorism, he would have just gone on to Baghdad and finished the job. The problem, for those of you that are just ENAMORED with involving the U.N and the global community, was that Daddy Bush LISTENED to the U.N., who told him they didn't want him to proceed. In retrospect, he wishes he wouldn't have listened.”

Enamored with involving the UN? Instead of primarily unilaterally invading a country for the singular reason of finding WOMD that were deemed to not be there by the UN, and haven’t been found months later.

“I get SO SICK of people criticizing President Bush's intelligence.”

Well you’re a doctor, medicate yourself. Better yet, you’re not a poor person, so you’ll respect yourself as you treat yourself.

“When are you "superiorly intelligent to Bush" people going to realize that after a certain level of intellect, MORE intelligence becomes irrelevant and DECISION MAKING, CONVICTION, and RESOLVE, are what becomes important. President Bush has adequate intelligence to handle the problems. What he has, that Clinton NEVER had, and that Gore would never have had, was conviction and resolve.”

Isn’t the overuse of uppercase letters grand? It’s as if you’re yelling these terms to us, as if we’re being preached to in church. Bush is without a doubt the dumbest US President that we’ve seen. Clinton/Gore had conviction and resolve, just different than you would have wanted so you reduce it to being without resolve. Clinton tried for socialized medicine, instead of the elitist medicine to which you practice. Clinton succeeded in don’t ask/don’t tell. Clinton succeeded in making it easier for people of lower economic class to attend college, and if you’ve noticed, tuition is at all time highs now. Clinton made life better for people not like you; people of lower economic classes, so I don’t wonder why you can’t stand him.

“Bush had to sit there and listen to the critics, whiners, and second guessers for months while his people were doing the work. He SAID, all you intellectuals, that it would take time.”

Yea, and all Clinton had to do is weather an impeachment.

“HE had the resolve to stick it out vs. some (I'm Back) who post 9-11 wanted the U.S. to attack, then got it, then when things didn't happen immediately (like Bush said it wouldn't)and things started getting messy, flip-flopped and decided to "get out of that region", "declare peace", and turn tail.”

Your paraphrasation/recount is tailored to your liking, as usual. As I said before, I was taken in by the emotion of 9/11. The entire Senate –1 was also taken in, and voted for the Patriot Act, and many of them are remorseful of that. My current opinion status isn’t much off what it was right after 9/11 though, as I would currently get out of that region, declare peace and promise not to be the usual nosey-bodies. But if any act of terrorism occurred to the US that could be positively proven that it came from a given country, I would level it. The current administration feels war leads to peace; I believe peace leads to peace. We talk about how irrational some countries people are; well, then why do we engage in war with these irrational people?

"Get out of that region" is a euphemism. It means acquiesce to the arabs and abandon Israel. In other words, let the arabs tell you what to do or else. In other words, be bullied and ordered around.”

No, it means to say screw the Israelis, who start more crap than we can deal with, and tell the Arabs that we will stop medalling in their affairs, but that we have a zero tolerance level and we will ruin their ass if they do 1 thing.

“Declare peace...until attacked. We WERE attacked. Oh, well, I mean NEXT time. Yeah, Bill Clinton. And the NEXT time, and the NEXT time. World trade center. Foreign barracks. The Cole. World trade center again.”

Yes, we were attacked, and yes, we have nosed into their business for centuries, but especially since 1948. The question is, if we never nosed into their business, would the above events have occurred? I think not.

“And Iraq having a wimpy army? And yet to insult the military by criticizing the army for allowing 400 deaths against such wimps? Well, about half were in the initial battle, which is amazing. But might one consider that Iraq's army only LOOKED like wimps because of the brilliance of the U.S. army?”

They had a decided advantage in home field for starters, but we must not forget that they have lost many times the 400+. If even a weak enemy is willing to suicide bomb, there isn’t much you can do. We lost 55k or so in Viet Nam, the Viet Kong lost 6 to 7 times that, so same scenario.

“And the war on terror isn't finished...Al Qaeda is still intact. It is? How did you know that? Because although I'm sure there are parts that still exist, and should be hunted, are they intact? What have they done since Bush started the war on terror? In Iraq against the army-maybe it was them. And the British embassy.”

There have been sporadic attacks since then, and there was one after the capture of Saddam, not because of the capture of Saddam or in spite of the capture, but there are resistant force of which are likely trained and/or financed by the Al-Quida.

“But no. We should just understand them, and leave them alone, and they will leave us alone. You must be a disciple of Prime Minister Chamberlin.”

No to understand and yes to leave them alone to govern their own country. And yes to draw the line in the sand and stick with it.

“I agonize over the 400 american soldiers, PLUS the ones permanently maimed.”

You don’t take 84Bill’s reaction stance; war is hell and deaths are just a part? Remember FL, these are often/usually people of lower economic class, so don’t you feel they are to a degree expendable? You know my stance, I wish they could have led fun, prosperous lives.

“But Bush, his administration, and the military have performed in a spectacular fashion all the while under a barrage of liberal second-guessing and criticism. Although there is much work to be done, much has been done, including capturing Saddam Hussein. Congratulations U.S. army and President Bush.”

And don’t forget world criticism and second-guessing. Remember, most of the world is wrong and we are right. We went in for the exclusive reason of finding WOMD and we ended up not finding any and have turned a country upside-down against most of the world’s blessing. Oh well, if they complain too much we’ll call ‘em terrorists and wipe them out too.

So we got Saddam, great. I would rather have the 400+ young Americans back though.

I would really hate to live in the world that you would rule over, Ed. So many people turning the other cheek when they are being slaughtered. The reality of the world is that there are bad people. They have to be stopped and someone has to do it!

Someone mentioned exile? Who here believes that exile is going to stop Saddam Hussein from controlling Iraq? You people might have heard of the information superhighway. You can do anything you want instantly from around the world. He doesn't have to actually be there to do his evil deeds. He needs to be either locked away from the world with no contact or taken out of the world.

Ed, if some punk ass kid comes up in your yard and starts busting up your car and when you come out he starts beating the hell out of you... are you just gonna roll over like you are pretending should be done here or are you going to stop it? Even the most pacifist people will attack when their lives depend on it.

The sad fact is that there are bad people that have to be dealt with. All you liberals are the same ones who think that us evil Americans should keep on paying for the ever growing prison population to have cable TV and better beds... Always worried about their rights when they have no respect for the lives, much less the rights, of their victims.

You fellas just keep on feeling holier than though but personally, I am thankful that there are those with enough backbone to do what has to be done.

And that silly symbolism protects your ass to say all the un-American crap that you are always posting on here... Don't bite the hand that feeds you...

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 12-16-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: They have to be stopped and someone has to do it!

Oooh! Me! Me! Me! I'll do it!

quote Someone mentioned exile? Who here believes that exile is going to stop Saddam Hussein from controlling Iraq?

I do. Not much you CAN do from a concrete cell in Munich.

quote You people might have heard of the information superhighway. You can do anything you want instantly from around the world.

What, you never heard of the Patriot act? I'd LOVE to see Saddam control Iraq from a laptop!
I see you've bought into the fantasy of the all-powerful evil mastermind. Hate to burst your bubble, it doesn't WORK that way. The ONLY reason Saddam was still in power was because he had control of his army to enforce his rule. He doesn't have that anymore. Ergo, he has NOTHING. Do you HONESTLY believe that he would have voluntarily dug himself into a dirt-hole and lived in squallor like he did VOLUNTARILY? The guy who had what, 10 mansions across the country? I'll have some of what you're smoking, please.

quote He doesn't have to actually be there to do his evil deeds. He needs to be either locked away from the world with no contact or taken out of the world.

Baloney. His powerbase is DESTROYED. It's different from a mobile terrorist cell. With dictatorships, you cut the snake's tail off, it's dead. (Make the incision right behind the head)

quote Ed, if some punk ass kid comes up in your yard and starts busting up your car and when you come out he starts beating the hell out of you... are you just gonna roll over like you are pretending should be done here or are you going to stop it? Even the most pacifist people will attack when their lives depend on it.

If some punk tried that, I'd beat him into the pavement until he stopped, then call an ambulance. There's a difference between turning a cheek to a studied insult, and defending yourself. No wait, not in the bible. Sorry, you HAVE to turn the other cheek, sorry. ANYWAY, the point is "defend yourself" doesn't mean "Cap the ****er"

quote The sad fact is that there are bad people that have to be dealt with. All you liberals are the same ones who think that us evil Americans should keep on paying for the ever growing prison population to have cable TV and better beds... Always worried about their rights when they have no respect for the lives, much less the rights, of their victims. [quote] *insert violin. REPETETIVE violin* [quote] You fellas just keep on feeling holier than though but personally, I am thankful that there are those with enough backbone to do what has to be done.

Hang on, ED is coming across as holier than thou!?? NOBODY here questions the sacrifice made by those soldiers. We question the sacrifices made for OTHER people by people who don't have to watch their buddies die in a hole on the other side of the world. And we question the people who follow blindly any cause for the sake of being "patriotic."

quote And that silly symbolism protects your ass to say all the un-American crap that you are always posting on here... Don't bite the hand that feeds you...

Somehow I KNEW you'd throw out that "unamerican" card. Puh-LEEEZE.

[This message has been edited by Mach10 (edited 12-16-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Songman:

"I would really hate to live in the world that you would rule over, Ed. So many people turning the other cheek when they are being slaughtered. The reality of the world is that there are bad people. They have to be stopped and someone has to do it!"

Likewise, only problem is that I live in a world that is ruled over by people like you, or should I say by people that you have modeled your thinking after. So we are going to trade out young people for the good of the world? No thanks.

"Someone mentioned exile? Who here believes that exile is going to stop Saddam Hussein from controlling Iraq? You people might have heard of the information superhighway. You can do anything you want instantly from around the world. He doesn't have to actually be there to do his evil deeds. He needs to be either locked away from the world with no contact or taken out of the world."

I didn't write anything about exile, nor did I read anything about. Either way, exile is not the answer at this point. We have him, he's done, but I don't like the trade-off, nor would you if he/she happened to be your son/daughter, brother/sister. It's so easy to mitigate the national loss when the loss is so far removed from your personal household.

"Ed, if some punk ass kid comes up in your yard and starts busting up your car and when you come out he starts beating the hell out of you... are you just gonna roll over like you are pretending should be done here or are you going to stop it? Even the most pacifist people will attack when their lives depend on it."

That's funny. I'm anything but passive. I'm actually quite radical. I just know how revenge works, and when you have willing parties that keep upping the ante, the ante gets bigger. It's so easy for the insulated elitist politicians to throw gobs of young people at their personal spat, especially when the soldiers mean nothig to them.

I'm not worried about the criminal element that carries themselves as punk kids, I'm more worried about the criminals in blue. I can handle the punk kids by myself, but the criminals in blue happen to write/revise the facts to fit their needs.

You silly little conservatives follow your generalization protocol so strictly that you end up giving yourselves misinformation.

Democrats = liberal, weak, tree-hugging, vegetarian, soft, crybabies, etc...

Shame you will never meet me . You would actually revise your little stereotypes - maybe. To hang out with me for a day you would probably wet your pants with fear, as I live a little on the edge some of the time.

"The sad fact is that there are bad people that have to be dealt with."

Yea, and they wear uniforms and have the backing of the various jurisdictions. Are you affraid of street punks? You must be soft then, cuase they don't phase me.

"All you liberals are the same ones who think that us evil Americans should keep on paying for the ever growing prison population to have cable TV and better beds... Always worried about their rights when they have no respect for the lives, much less the rights, of their victims."

All and always.... trying to reinforce your point with absolutes? That's generally a sign of a weak argument. Is someone that is pro-gun big time and anti-affirmative action a liberal? To a conservative, yes. See, the thing about conservatism is that you must buy into all of the rhetoric and rules, or be deemed liberal. That is sad. Then you act as if liberals are not Americans and conservatives are the real Americans with your statement. Hmmmm, one kind of people, while removing or segregating the others....wonder why the Republican Party has been likened to the Nazis?

Defending the rights of the accused or convicted is neccessary to protect the rights of the innocent. For example, Sheriff Joke (Joe) Arpaio is pulling people over with child seats to see if they're being properly used, even though no other reasonable suspicion is present. Highly against the law, but so what, sue us he says. That's what fighting the establishment does; disallows intrusional actions.

"You fellas just keep on feeling holier than though but personally, I am thankful that there are those with enough backbone to do what has to be done."

Is that some kind of gay remark? Fellas? You would laugh at yourself if you knew how ridiculous your statements are. I don't need to make homophobic assertions, as I'm very secure with my sexuality; are you? Besides, you are very close to the bay area, wheras I live in old crusty conservative Phoenix.

"And that silly symbolism protects your ass to say all the un-American crap that you are always posting on here... Don't bite the hand that feeds you..."

What, a flag and cross with a drug addict looking guy hanging off it protects me? I feed myself, despite how the conservatives want to take it away to redistribute it to the rich. I was actually in the military, how about you? I was part of that group that supposedly kept us from the Russians that were supposedly out to get us. Can you speak a bit from experience, or just from the stories of others?

Why did we go into Iraq in the first place?

-Because Saddam refused to allow un-hindered inspections.
-Because we ALL know for a fact that Saddam had WMD's at one point and there has NOT been definitive proof that they have ALL been destroyed.
-Because Saddam had links to terrorist groups.

The more time goes on, the more connections are made.

Look, I think too many of you liberals either watch too much main-stream news and/or hear what you want to hear. I think it is time for you to turn on some FOX NEWS or listen to some Bill O-Reilly or Rush and draw conclusions from hard facts and not from the opinions of bush-hating networks. It never ceases to amaze me how many people hate Bush because Gore didn't win in 2000 and ever since then they have just been piling on the hate. If Gore was elected in 2000, we would probably be begging for mercy from Iraq and Bin Laden at this point.

Furthermore, if Howard Dean is elected in 2004 you won't have to worry about our "evil" big government because Dean sounds like he wants the UN to be put in charge of everything over here. The same UN that syphoned money from the oil-for-food program into their own pockets. The same UN that passes resolution after resolution against evil-doers but never acts upon them. Look, the biggest problem with the UN is France and Germany. They don't like us because we are the LONE superpower, nothing more. The only reason why they didn't want us to go into IRAQ was because of all the contracts and loans they had with Saddam. When are you people going to wake up and realize that the sole motivating factor of France, Germany, and the UN is MONEY. They could give 2 craps about how many people are buried in those mass graves over there. I remember back at the beginning of this war that all of you liberals were saying the only reason why we were going in was because we wanted the oil so we could make money. Funny, doesn't look like we have made any money off IRAQ. In fact, quite the opposite, we are paying to rebuild and reform IRAQ. Money I would GLADLY give to make sure there is one less uncontrollable dictatorship in the world with enough resources to negatively effect us.

To all of you who hate bush and despize what we have done in Iraq: I want you to get on a plane, fly over to Iraq, and tell the families which have loved-ones buried in those mass-graves, face-to-face, that you think Bush is an idiot and we should not have overthrown Saddam. Because that is what you are really saying. I just think you should have the testicals to do it in person, rather than sitting behind a keyboard and telling all of us that Bush is wrong.

quote Originally posted by Darth Fiero: I think it is time for you to turn on some FOX NEWS or listen to some Bill O-Reilly or Rush and draw conclusions from hard facts and not from the opinions of bush-hating networks.

hehehehehehe

Did you hear about the possible sighting of Bin Laden? Seems he may have crossed the Pakistan border last week in a Fiero. Border guards thought it was a member of ZZ Top on a USO tour. They did a brief inspection of the vehicle and claimed to have seen $750,000 which they reported later to the local UN officials. Since everybody knows a Fiero can't hold that much cash, it was assumed to be an error in translation and was discounted. With the capture of Saddam Hussein, all such reports are now being given renewed consideration.

Without getting into the whole death penalty debate...

The danger Saddam poses is more symbolic than actual. He is still a hero to many. As long as he's alive, someone will try to free him. I don't want to turn on my TV in a few years to "The Free Saddam Hostage Standoff - Day 573"...

It should be a moot point anyway. I think there's little doubt about what the Iraqi's will do with him. What happened to "don't impose our morals on other countries"?

quote Originally posted by Taijiguy: Personally, I think he should be executed by firing squad. But only after he gets to see them slaughter a pig, soak the bullets he's about to be executed with in the blood, and see his grave prepared by lining it with the remains of the pig. Then shoot his ass with the bloody bullets, and toss him in that grave with the pig. The only really sad part of this is, it would be a shame to bury a pig in the same grave with Hussein....poor pig.... If you don't know the relevence of all this, look into how Muslims regard pigs....

Someone once asked me what could be done to help avoid another 911 and I told them I'd put a potbelly pig on every plane as a mascot. Call em' Porky's Pilots. Train the pigs to detect explosives and assholes.

Although the bleeding hearts on this forum don't agree with my thinking, and some try to make me a war mongerer... I was glad to see on the news this morning that there are those patriots still left in the world who want our country to be strong... Namely, Senator John McCain. Good interview with him. He said he was glad that the world got to see what a coward Saddam really is...

Poor, poor Saddam...

What could have been done to stop 9/11 was for Congress to understand that ANY world power nation has to have covert operations. People working undercover to stop these kinds of threats at the root instead of whining about it and trying to place blame while we are counting bodies. Of course, those here that are 'more educated' than me will tell us how we can just talk it our peacefully... Or at least just turn the other cheek... AGAIN. Saddam Hussein held this world at bay for years with his lies and threats. He is finally paying for that. Sorry that some people can't see that. Luckily, the majority does see it.

Ed.. I can't even respond to you. You are on the opposite page of any issue just to cause crap. You are here for no other purpose than to stir stuff up and you change your mind 'facts' more than you do your underwear. Again, thankfully almost everyone here knows that so you. like Saddam, are not much of a threat anymore.

Your twists of people's words get harder and harder to comprehend with each message you post.. Because I used the word 'fellas' you twisted it to insinuate that I was calling you gay? What kind of BS is that? And you infer that everyone in the Bay area is gay? First, check on your geography because Bakersfield is not near the Bay area. Second, I think you and everyone here knows where I am from. Third, a few folks fron the Bay area might like to hear a little more about your insinuations.

Symbolism to you is a flag, a cross, and a drug addict? That's fine if that is what it is to you.. But I don't believe that was used in any descriptions prior to you trying to make my statements into something that they were not... I enjoy debating with the other guys on this forum, but you Ed... you are a joke and an embarassment.

And yes, I was in the military... Of course, if I start talking about my MI job then I just give you more fodder to talk about how military and intelligence don't go together... I know you too well, Ed. What did you do? Stock boy?

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 12-17-2003).]

I wonder what details/secrets Saddam will tell to the world. I look forward to his public trial Bush spoke of. Remember: Saddam was the recognized leader when the Kurd uprising tried to overtake him (with U.S. assistance which never arrived). THAT gassing incident will undoubtly be used as a self defense. I believe he may have used mustard gas w/ Iran which violated international rules of war-time law. Imagine that, some idiots have placed laws on ways people can or cannot be killed and what types of weapons may or may not be used.

Gas, landmines, dirty bombs etc are typically 'scrappy' weapons used by smaller, less potent armies against stronger forces. Also seeing how Iraq developed its chemical weapons with the help of western companies- wouldnt these companies be liable for those deaths incurred? It seems war is a dirty business...a good business non the less, but many are not safer & millions suffer every day because of it.

It also seems the U.S. can officially be called Alexander the Great part II.

Our modern day financiers, politicians, and generals have picked up where Alexander the Great had left off. Like Alexander, the U.S. has conquered peoples & thier lands to mold them into its likeing. Adjoining them to western cultures and profiteering from new markets. Saddam was a very expensive small prickly prize. Both China & Russia have picked up on our devlish grand scheme. They sit on the sidelines...waiting, watching, and learning.

Republicans & Democrats you have a common trait: Ignorance.
Use empathy. Utilize ALL POINTS OF VIEW> Evil walks in front of you; yet very few see it- Thats why its so dangerous.

Its a rush to clear the most land, exploit the most resources (both people & minerals), sell the most product, (make the most cars, computers etc..). In other words people-look at the BIG PICTURE. Aint it a pretty place?

quote Originally posted by frontal lobe: I get SO SICK of people criticizing President Bush's intelligence. When are you "superiorly intelligent to Bush" people going to realize that after a certain level of intellect, MORE intelligence becomes irrelevant and DECISION MAKING, CONVICTION, and RESOLVE, are what becomes important. President Bush has adequate intelligence to handle the problems. What he has, that Clinton NEVER had, and that Gore would never have had, was conviction and resolve. Bush had to sit there and listen to the critics, whiners, and second guessers for months while his people were doing the work. He SAID, all you intellectuals, that it would take time. HE had the resolve to stick it out vs. some (I'm Back) who post 9-11 wanted the U.S. to attack, then got it, then when things didn't happen immediately (like Bush said it wouldn't)and things started getting messy, flip-flopped and decided to "get out of that region", "declare peace", and turn tail. "Get out of that region" is a euphemism. It means acquiesce to the arabs and abandon Israel. In other words, let the arabs tell you what to do or else. In other words, be bullied and ordered around. Declare peace...until attacked. We WERE attacked. Oh, well, I mean NEXT time. Yeah, Bill Clinton. And the NEXT time, and the NEXT time. World trade center. Foreign barracks. The Cole. World trade center again. And Iraq having a wimpy army? And yet to insult the military by criticizing the army for allowing 400 deaths against such wimps? Well, about half were in the initial battle, which is amazing. But might one consider that Iraq's army only LOOKED like wimps because of the brilliance of the U.S. army? And the war on terror isn't finished...Al Qaeda is still intact. It is? How did you know that? Because although I'm sure there are parts that still exist, and should be hunted, are they intact? What have they done since Bush started the war on terror? In Iraq against the army-maybe it was them. And the British embassy.

I'll go one further. He has MORE than adequate intelligence. Libs make a big deal about Clinton being a Rhodes Scholar (which technically he wasn't) but forget that the CURRENT President is a graduate of YALE AND HARVARD!!

But all you hear from the so-called intelligent left is racial slurs like "dubya" (referring to his accent and southern origins, as if that makes us southerners all morons by default).

I'll remind you libs that as we celebrate 100 years of powered flight today to give thought to the fact that it was a couple of southerners who invented powered flight!

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I'll remind you libs that as we celebrate 100 years of powered flight today to give thought to the fact that it was a couple of southerners who invented powered flight!

I think we Southerners had something to do with the invention of the submarine too.

So all you folks that don't like us southerners be know when you leave this world you gonna go past something a Southerner has changed in this world. Whether you go up or down yall been surrounded by us.

As we celebrate 100 years of powered flight we can give new meaning to "The South Will Rise Again"!

quote Originally posted by Mach10: My question: Ok, so now that you have Saddam, what are you going to do with him? Give him to the Iraqi people to draw-and-quarter him? Or does the US have a more humane solution?

Finally made it through this entire thread...

The question resides, how do we try Sadam?!

1) As a POW?
2) As a war criminal?
3) Or as a former leader charged with crimes against humanity?

Each one would obviously fall under different juristictions as to whom could try him based on how he is subsequently charged.

Being as IRAQ doesn't have "Capital Punishment", as of right now that is, of course, there is debate whether or not they will enact this within their country by next year, I say we turn him over to the Iraqian people for his just deserve.

We in the meantime, take the back seat (and continue to act as guards/protectors to ensure he goes to trial) and allow his people to punish him accordingly to the horrific crimes in which he committed against his own as well as neighboring people. I feel this would also give the people a sense of resolve knowing they no longer have to fear Sadam and his affiliated party and see that they now control the outcome, not him.

Saddams considerable wealth and power was a thorn for U.S. policies & globalization. He did not fall in line with our modern day monarchy NWO and WTO schemes. That North Korean evil-doer leader could be next.

GNasty History lesson:
Alexander the great conquered much of the 'then' civilized world, driven by his divine ambition of world conquest and the creation of a universal 'world monarchy'. Sound familiar? (ie: RICH PEOPLE) He brought Greek ideas, culture and life style to the countries which he conquered, and assured expansion and domination of Hellenistic Culture which, together with Roman Civilization and Christianity, constitutes the foundation of what is now called Western Civilization.

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I'll remind you libs that as we celebrate 100 years of powered flight today to give thought to the fact that it was a couple of southerners who invented powered flight!

When did Dayton, Ohio become part of the south?

Better check out Kitty Hawk and Kill Devil Hill in North Carolina for the first flight.. The Wrights may have been born in Ohio but had the good sense to move to North Carolina...

quote Originally posted by Songman: Saddam Hussein held this world at bay for years with his lies and threats. He is finally paying for that. Sorry that some people can't see that. Luckily, the majority does see it.

You don't honestly believe that, do you?!?

1) He had no army left
2) His country was starving
3) The whole world hated his ass for the Kurd incident
4) He was a "socialist" dictator in the middle of a bunch of strict right-wing fundamentalists. At sea in a liferaft?

All he had *OSTENSIBLY* was a few drums of gas, with no practical means to deliver it. ANYWHERE.

I know *I* was quaking in my boots these last 13 years

You want global threat? Talk to Korea.

People always have to throw Korea up... I'm not saying Korea is any better... We can't do everything at once though... Our immediate threat came from the Middle East... But you just watch.. When we do go after Korea, the same ones who were saying "Why not Korea instead of Iraq?" will be using the same arguments they used for us not being in Iraq...

And yes, I do believe that... If he had no army left, who have we been fighting? Yes, his people were starving, while he was sitting there stockpiling money to be used for bigger, badder weapons. Yes, the whole world hated him, yet he still had the UN protecting him and saying 'let's wait a little longer' all the while more people were dying. And all it takes is one nut with a mis-guided dream and some financing to turn the world upside down.

Yeah... That's all Bin Laden had too... Have you seen the hole where the WTC used to be?

You know why you weren't quaking.. Because you are safely in Canada while other people are protecting you.. That is not a jab against Canada. I am safely here while I am being protected as well... The people in the WTC thought they were safe and protected too.. That is why they weren't quaking... Too bad that they had to die as part of our wake-up call that you apparently missed.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 12-17-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Toddster: I'll remind you libs that as we celebrate 100 years of powered flight today to give thought to the fact that it was a couple of southerners who invented powered flight!

quote Originally posted by Songman: Better check out Kitty Hawk and Kill Devil Hill in North Carolina for the first flight.. The Wrights may have been born in Ohio but had the good sense to move to North Carolina...

What the... Huh? Why Kitty Hawk?

I can't tell you exactly what the Wrights were thinking since I was not there but I can tell you what history says...

The grassy hill and surrounding land at Kill Devil Hills is significant as the site of Orville and Wilbur Wrights' glider and powered flight experiments in the early 1900s and especially as the site of the now generally recognized first powered flight of December 17, 1903.

I guess it was just a good area to go flying...

If you want to study more...
http://www.nps.gov/wrbr/ - National Park Service site
http://www.outerbanks.com/wrightbrothers/wrightlc.htm - Library of Congress photos

Go Orville! Go Orville!

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 12-17-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: Better check out Kitty Hawk and Kill Devil Hill in North Carolina for the first flight.. The Wrights may have been born in Ohio but had the good sense to move to North Carolina...

Sorry but the Wrights never moved to NC as a residence, they just did the flights there because of weather and privacy. Wilbur was born in Indiana but both lived in Dayton from early childhood to death.

Never said they did... I was just responding to the 'first flight' thing..

They were in Kitty Hawk for three years though while trying to get that bird in the air.

[This message has been edited by Songman (edited 12-17-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Songman: Never said they did... I was just responding to the 'first flight' thing.. They were in Kitty Hawk for three years though while trying to get that bird in the air.

IMS, they only spend the winter in Kitty Hawk. They'd go back to Ohio for the rest of the year to make money and refine their designs.

Ahhhh... okay guys... I get it.. I realize, and never said any differently, that they weren't actual residents of North Carolina! haha

But for reasons that they decided, they gave Kitty Hawk, NC the honor of the first powered flight.. Quit nitpiking my words.. We are in agreement. This is not a North/South issue. I AM TALKING ABOUT FLYING.

And Steve, what the hell is IMS?