They're dancing in the streets in Baghdad. Only an extreme Democrat would try to spin that in a bad light. Even Howard Dean has said this is a great day for America, the Iraqi people, and the Bush Administration.

What Saddam did was cause/raise a question mark in the future and security of the free world. Saddam may or may not have played and active part in future conflicts (had we not removed him from power) and he can be compaired to Hitler mildly. The real threat (unknow to most) were his sons. They (the hellspaun of Saddam) Would have ruled with a terror and hatred the world has not seen in hundreds of years. They both were well educated and much more ruthless than their father ever was.

The multi headed snake is dead and gone thought there are many other snakes lurking in the grass. There will be more insurgant fighting before the last gasp and Iraq is fully free and it's people can stan up for themselves. When that happens we can safely leave Iraq but not before then.... It may take quite a few more years but that all depends on the Iraqi people.
If the majority of Iraqis are the kind of people I think they are, they put their families above all else and seek peace in their community, they will seek to end hostilities and will protest against insurgant fighting. With Saddam out of the way they will feel much safer in doing so.

I don't understand the "party" comments so previlent in this and many other threads, Democraps and Repugnatins alike know this is a good thing for all sides.

[This message has been edited by 84Bill (edited 12-14-2003).]

To Jeff and 'Im Back'...

To say that you know anything about anything is a grope in the dark. The more you speak, the more you reinforce that statement. Might as well stop while youre behind. Each and every one of your comments reflects 'inch-deep thought' and even less knowledge of the topic. Hitler DID in fact murder his fellow Germans and more. Now, are you going to argue that Jews werent 'his own people' due to their race/religion/whatever? Besides, his 'perfect race' campaign was not the issue in Europe so that dumps your retort in the crapper, doesnt it.

C'mon... its plain to see that neither of you are happy unless you stir the pot, regardless of how it makes you look. Sure there is a pricetag on this victory, however if you feel the need to whine about lost lives and money due to a war, study the Korean and Viet Nam Conflicts, then come talk about this. Knowledge is power.

quote Originally posted by maryjane: Was there any camel DNA in there? Kinda looks like that was the look he was trying to achieve. Definitly havin a bad hair day.

"Definitly havin a bad hair day."

Hahahahaha

Upon hearing this news, which is a good thing, my mind quickly shifted over to all the lives 'World Wide' that were taken, and the families that have been impacted by losing a loved one since this whole things started. Add to that the number of wounded with permanent damage such as limb loss, paralasis, etc., etc. If you stop and think about it, the numbers will boggle your mind, which saddens my heart at this time. My thoughts at this time, is what may be going through the minds of those directly and severly impacted by this war, which I sincerely hope has brought some piece of mind with the news of todays event.

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http://www.cartsys.com/fiero/cal-engine.wav

This is truly a great day for the war efforts. This is not a time to talk of the legalities of the war. Despite whatever feelings we, as liberals, had about entering the war, the fact that they caught him honors the lives that were taken in Iraq. You can dispute the war, but never dispute the human lives involved. Even the most hardline protestor of the war must put that aside, and support troops that are putting their lives on the line.

Lets make it an even better day, and put OBL's picture right next to him.

quote Originally posted by maryjane:

"You can tell this has really irritated the liberals, and some moderate Bush haters. They are out in force here this morning, trying to deflect the subject matter. It's always about them you see, and where they want money spent."

No, we're already irritated at most of the other things Bushy has done. I think most of the world is glad that Saddam was caught, but it's merely symbolic, like any country’s flag, the cross of persecution, and any other meaningless events that don't really change anything. There is an order of succession that has the resistance further organized. Saddam looks as coherent as did Reagan in his latter years in office, so I don't think he has been a threat for months, but kudos to guys and gals that caught him. How bout this MJ, what of this capture angers the resistance forces and they kill Americans because of that? Again, w/o talking about where the money was spent, let's talk about where the lives were spent. Other than to 84Bill, 400+ American lives is a huge deal to all/most other Americans. At least I give all PFFers other than Bill the credit for thinking that way.

"Probably not even that. As I've stated before, I believe many of them wish we had incurred huge #s of casualties in the war on terrorism, anything to make things look better for them."

Did you change your mind on us? That's a pretty vicious statement to make that some/many Americans are disappointed that more Americans weren't killed. Do you really want to make that assertion? Sure I want Bushy to have his facade of leadership revealed, but not at the cost of 1 life or any injuries. I think he's done well enough by himself.

"The same folks are very disappointed this morning I think, just as they were Thanksgiving Day."

If Bushy was even there on Thanksgiving, I find it comical. Aside from the serious Presidential duties that are being ill done, Bushy is such a boob that I find him comical.

"They are hoping-praying that this will go away. They are quick to mention the rights and plights of Americans, but show no concern for the plight of people elsewhere."

Do you really want to act as if liberation of 'good' Iraqis is an issue? Even the consummate conservative maggot, Dennis Miller said this had nothing to do with liberation. That's the conservative pass to justify the billions and 400+ deaths.

"They normally berate members who try to hijack a subject away from the original topic. I see how quickly they are doing the same thing now, pointing to Saudi Arabia, China-anything to deflect the discussion to their liking."

Gee MJ, it's unlike you to answer my post indirectly, usually you would answer as a quote. I wonder why the indirect reference?

As for berating goes, I see many more conservative members berate other members than I see the other way. I'm not berating anyone by pointing to Saudi and China; I was merely referencing China with the abhorrent treatment of their people, and Saudi with regard to the origin of the 9-11 terrorists. This is a thread about atrocious treatment of people by dictatorial countries and Saddam, which is liked to 9-11, right? I'm right on track. Everything I addressed/referenced has a direct/close correlation to this thread; prove otherwise.

"Whatever happened to "it's the economy stupid"? The "Baghad trip was a hoax"? Well, ya got almost 11 months before November. Maybe you will convert a couple of people here-I haven't seen much evidence of that happening thus far tho."

Oh, it goes further than the economy. Come election campaigning time we will have plenty better things than the Iraq matter. The Overtime Bill, Patriot Act (even though all but 1 Dem voted for it, it's a Repub brainchild), Medicare, and many, many others. But I do objectively give the advantage to the Repubs, in spite of the state of the nation. There is a real conservative upswing since the fascist Reagan era, so I give a 60/40 advantage to the Repubs. As for conversion, I don't want to. Like the article based upon a survey stated, elections go as Bible thumpers/secularity goes; thump a Bible, 2/3 go Repub, don't thump, 2/3 go Dem. So I don't want to convert anyone, but I would like people to answer my posts, every statement taken in context and answered. It won't happen, as people can't answer my points and still prove theirs; they tend to answer them like a buffet; take what hey want and avoid the rest. Oh well, acquiescence is as good as failing to refute my assertions.

"It's happened, they found him and it's stuck in some craws for a while. Another talking point gone."

Great, props to those who caught him.

"Pick our battles carefully? You betcha we do. Only idiots fail to do that."

Idiots, enough about Bushy, this post is about Saddam! Come on MJ, you must admit those stupid statements made by Bushy, those confused, idiotic looks he wears; you must have to quietly laugh. Even if you like what he does, he does it in such a way as to look a lil' 'tarded!

"I see they stop short of actually caling for real combat ops against China. They mention it, but don't really call for it. It's just a diversionary tactic. A straw to grasp at this morning."

I'm not for combat against China. I'm just saying that if we are on a crusade against human atrocity, then next stop China. Truth is, we're not, we're just throwing that out there to justify what we wanted to do for other reasons.

"Are they really concerned about the human rights violations in China? I doubt it, but that's just a personal opinion."

I'm not; I've never claimed that I am. It would be nice if they would stop killing their own citizens, but it would also be nice if we would do the same. I don't want to spend 1 US life saving 1,000 lives of other countries. Why don't we take care of our own first, and then save the world?

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: ...will try to act as if they took down a Hitleresque type dictator, ...

Which they did. Anyone that can't see that hasn't got his eyes open. There are more than a few similarities between the two. One huge difference though. This time somebody had the guts to stop him in his tracks, twice.

Glad they finnally got the A$$HOLE.

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85GT 2.9 4spd MSD Everything, Big Cam, No Cat and Nitrous. Nawzz babeee!!!!
http://www.captfiero.com

"When I catch him its' gonna be the gravy on my grits."
Sheriff Buford T. Justice....(Jackie Gleason)

Today is the day for America to have its gravy on its grits.... The Iraqi people can truly have their country back now.
Having been in Iraq, I am truly touched by todays news. All I have to say it Thanks to everyone who captured him and everyone who taken part in making the middle east a more peaceful place.

I'm also taking time to thank the other members of the coalition who helped to make this happen.
And lastly....
I still believe and say
"America is number 1, THANKS TO OUR VETERANS."

Thank you all for helping to make America (and our allies) free and strong.
My thoughts are with all who have made sacrifices to put Saddam out of power and where he is today.

SSGT Sammy WIlliams, USAF
mandatory Fiero COntent: Mabye a Fiero may get sent to Iraq now....

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1988 Fiero Formula T-tops
CJB 143 of 1252 "factory T-top cars"

quote Originally posted by Roylmohr:

"You have to laugh. What did Iraq under Saddam do with their money. Obviously they bought weapons. So if the money is used to buy the weapons the money should be considered a weapon right.
The $750,000 dollars is just what he had on him! No it is not going to kill the U.S. Again it is what he had on him. That is a lot of money. That money could be used for evil things. If the money produces evil it is a weapon! I'm sure Saddam didn't have a WMD lab in his basement. He used money to purchase it. Then the money is the weapon."

http://www.aneki.com/military.html

Countries with the Highest Military Spending

Rank Country Budget (billions of dollars (US))
1 United States 276.7
2 Japan 43.0
3 France 39.831
4 United Kingdom 36.884
5 Germany 32.8
6 Italy 20.7
7 Saudi Arabia 18.3
8 Brazil 13.408
9 India 13.02
10 China 12.608
11 Korea, South 12.0
12 Turkey 10.6
13 Israel 8.7
14 Taiwan 8.042
15 Canada 7.5
16 Australia 6.9
17 Netherlands 6.5
18 Greece 6.12
19 Spain 6.0
20 Iran 5.787

So then what does that make us? Oh, I see, we are responsible, so it's ok that we spend many times more than other countries. So we have more WOMD than any other country. Iran even spends more than Iraq. We studied these guys for a while and realized what a military joke they are and moved in.

"I am really upset that I may have insulted Hitler! I'm going to lose a lot of sleep tonight buddy. I was wrong to compare Saddam with the tyrant dictator Adolph Hitler.
Kinda weird though they did both attack their neighbors and kill their own people! Now I am laughing too. Hey that is one thing we have in common on this thread."

That statement was made to illustrate the differences between the 2 men. Not trying to defend Hitler’s good (gag, choke) name. There are similarities, but greater differences to me.

"Why do you want to talk about China? I thought this thread was about the capture of Saddam. Have fun picking apart this post too."

Well, you wrote, “JeffMN this man has killed his own people and attacked his neighbors.” What other countries kill their own without reasonable due process? China, North Korea, and many others. See, when you bring certain issues in to an argument, you can’t unilaterally say, ‘stop, that’s as far as I want to go.’ You brought in a subject about a dictator killing his own people and his neighbors. I merely exemplified your point with other such countries. I didn’t pick this apart, I just answered your points. I show the courtesy of answering all of a person’s assertions, or I leave them in the box above.

What’s funny is that I just received 2 more votes, presumably negatives. I wrote to you and 1 other person, didn’t tell anyone where to take it, and I receive 2 negatives….that illustrates what I think of the rating system. It’s a popularity contest not used as designed. Fortunately Cliff uses discretion as he reads these numbers.

This little "factoid" proves nothing. Do it as a % of GDP and see what you get.

No, you won't bother, so I'll tell you.

US 3.2%
France 2.6%
UK 2.3%
Germany 1.4%
Italy 1.6%
Iraq 3.8%

Keep in mind that a significant chunk of our military is stationed IN Europe allowing THEM to have a much smaller armed forces than they otherwise would keep. If we pulled out of Europe completely tomorrow, do you think that would result in MORE or LESS military spending by those host countries???

In size of armed forces, we rank 3rd behind both China AND the USSR with 1.36 million service men and women. On a % of our population, that's .5%. In contrast to the peace loving Saddam who had 1.5%, or 3 times as many in their armed forces.

Instead of just looking at the few figures you want to pick and choose from, why not go to http://www.nationmaster.com/ and try to learn something.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: http://www.aneki.com/military.html Countries with the Highest Military Spending Rank Country Budget (billions of dollars (US)) 1 United States 276.7 2 Japan 43.0 3 France 39.831 4 United Kingdom 36.884 5 Germany 32.8 6 Italy 20.7 7 Saudi Arabia 18.3 8 Brazil 13.408 9 India 13.02 10 China 12.608 11 Korea, South 12.0 12 Turkey 10.6 13 Israel 8.7 14 Taiwan 8.042 15 Canada 7.5 16 Australia 6.9 17 Netherlands 6.5 18 Greece 6.12 19 Spain 6.0 20 Iran 5.787

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Yes. It's sad, but predictable. I'm happy that we've got him. For any number of reasons. I'm watching the news, now. They're dancing in the streets in Iraq. It's just unconscionable to me how anyone can say this is a bad thing.

Unconscionable, but not unexpected. The liberal naysayers are desperate at this point. They'll even suggest that Hitler shouldn't be insulted with comparisons to Saddam. That's a new low. Go figure.

quote BTW, I thought he looked like Jerry Garcia.

Hey now, that's an insult to the memory of Jerry Garcia!

quote Originally posted by FieroMojo:

"To Jeff and 'Im Back'...

To say that you know anything about anything is a grope in the dark. The more you speak, the more you reinforce that statement."

Good thing we aren't speaking then.

"Might as well stop while youre behind. Each and every one of your comments reflects 'inch-deep thought' and even less knowledge of the topic."

Ok, write something substantive.

"Hitler DID in fact murder his fellow Germans and more. Now, are you going to argue that Jews werent 'his own people' due to their race/religion/whatever? Besides, his 'perfect race' campaign was not the issue in Europe so that dumps your retort in the crapper, doesnt it."

Sure he did. As for his own people that were killed, he didn't look at them as his own and there were probably some conscientious objectors. I disagree that his campaign wasn't about the perfect race. Are you forgetting about the Polish invasion?

"C'mon... its plain to see that neither of you are happy unless you stir the pot, regardless of how it makes you look."

Stir the pot? The first defamatory statements made in this thread are from you. Furthermore, what you're writing is that we should write in a way that is fashionable, so we look better to the PFF community. So individualism is crap, or what? America was founded on dissention and revolution, so I hope you don't reference our (not so) great founding fathers and their predecessors that took this country from the native Indians.

"Sure there is a pricetag on this victory, however if you feel the need to whine about lost lives and money due to a war, study the Korean and Viet Nam Conflicts, then come talk about this. Knowledge is power."

Ya, those 400+ lives are far overrated, right? What a bunch of whiners we are. I would think you would reference a war based on real need and celebratory victory like WWII. Viet Nam and Korea were political failures that cost over 100,000 lives collectively and yielded nothing, so what is your point?

Victory? What have we won? There is most likely an organization to the resistance force and they are likely mad as hell. Let’s count victory in a little while.

To set the record straight, I am extremely glad Saddam has been caught, but not at the price of 400+ American lives. I think Jeff feels the same way.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: So then what does that make us? Oh, I see, we are responsible, so it's ok that we spend many times more than other countries.

Actually, you don't spend many more times than other countries. If you look at military expenditure as a percentage of GDP, then Iraq is spending (under sanctions!) about as much as the USA does.

And yes, you answered your own question. The USA has signed numerous treaties that regulates the use of WOMD. Iraq has never signed such a treaty (other than under pressure of the UN sanctions) and has shown in the not so distant past they will not think twice about using them.

It wouldn't bother me a bit if the USA spent twice that amount on the military !!!! I live here (in the USA) and have no problem at all being top dog ... much better than being underdog !!!!

Someone has to be the big kid on the block ... why shouldn't it be the USA ???

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Sure he did. As for his own people that were killed, he didn't look at them as his own and there were probably some conscientious objectors.

Hitler did turn on his own people at the end of the war. I'm not talking about the Jews, I'm talking about the german people that had supported him all during the war. When it became obvious he couldn't win the war, he tried to destroy as much as possible of his own country and people. In fact, in the last months both german and allied forces were bombing the same cities at the same time.

First...Yes, its terrible that american soldiers are dying in Iraq, and Im not downplaying that at all (dont try to add between my lines). We hear everyday that an american dies, how its such a loss, and we should get out, generally raising hell the soldier died for a 'worthless' cause. Well Im not sure of exact figures, but I think its around 300,000 or more of our soldiers over there. Now compare that to any city of that size in the US, and youll see that is less than that citys daily deaths due to murder or accidents. Why dont you liberals do something about all those unnecessary deaths in the cities? No one whines all day about the guy that got shot at the convenience store.It dont even make national news and maybe does get a few seconds on local news. Its war people...people die in war !!! I have nothing but respect for the brave troops who risk dying over there, but thats their job, or at least to allow you to NOT go if you choose not to.

You've all been duped--every last one of you that believes the war in Iraq was in any way a legitimate, moral and legal use of force.

We went in under the false premise of WMD being an eminant threat; christ--dubbya even claimed they had radio controlled airplanes to deliver biological weapons.

There was nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not a single biological or nuclear weapon. No eminent threat. No matter how hard they try, no link to bin laden. This war that will end up costing us over time multiples of 100's of billions of dollars. If you think the hundreds of Americans killed and the thousands of americans wounded to capture a cheap political substitute for Osama Bin Laden is worth it, you've got BIG problems.

At the same point in the war in Vietnam fewer Americans died than have been senselessly killed in Iraq. For what? A puppet presidents public approval rating.

WHERE THE HELL IS BIN LADEN????

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock:

“Originally posted by I'm Back:
...will try to act as if they took down a Hitleresque type dictator, ...”

Cliff: “Which they did. Anyone that can't see that hasn't got his eyes open. There are more than a few similarities between the two. One huge difference though. This time somebody had the guts to stop him in his tracks, twice.”

I see only a few similarities. One similarity is that the allied forces did stop both of them. How is that a difference? It is awesome that the world is w/o Saddam, but it is really only symbolic. When we caught Ted Bundy and executed him, did rape murders cease? This is about attitudes, not individuals. Sure, we need to stop these individuals, but the problems stay unless we can change attitudes. So to change attitudes we can jail anyone/everyone that doesn’t think mainstream, or in the case of this forum we can negative them off the board for peacefully disagreeing.

The point Jeff made and I agree with is that the capture of Saddam wasn’t worth the price. There will be retaliation by them, and in time it will be in other countries in Europe and other places including America. We think we can kill people into submission, but we can’t. There are lots of dangerous countries with dictators as bad or worse than Saddam. His military was a joke and the allied forces lost 500; what would the tally be with a formidable opponent? What if they had nukes, as with N. Korea?

quote Originally posted by htexans1: Having been in Iraq, SSGT Sammy WIlliams, USAF

Forget the partisan bickering, at least for the moment. *Here* is someone we can listen to.

Thanks to you and all who serve this country. We owe you.

No, because Bundy wasn't responsible for all rapes and murders in the world. What a ridiculous thing to say to try to make a comparison. One thing is certain, BUNDY'S murdering damn sure ceased, now didn't it??

So now we shouldn't have jailed/executed Bundy because he "doesn’t think mainstream". What a loon.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: When we caught Ted Bundy and executed him, did rape murders cease? This is about attitudes, not individuals. Sure, we need to stop these individuals, but the problems stay unless we can change attitudes. So to change attitudes we can jail anyone/everyone that doesn’t think mainstream, or in the case of this forum we can negative them off the board for peacefully disagreeing.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 12-14-2003).]

quote Originally posted by JeffMN: You've all been duped--every last one of you that believes the war in Iraq was in any way a legitimate, moral and legal use of force. We went in under the false premise of WMD being an eminant threat; christ--dubbya even claimed they had radio controlled airplanes to deliver biological weapons. There was nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not a single biological or nuclear weapon. No eminent threat. No matter how hard they try, no link to bin laden. This war that will end up costing us over time multiples of 100's of billions of dollars.

The Iraqi Air Force didn't get one acft off the ground, and they knew the attack was imminent. This has got to be the weakest military showing of all times.

I want to give this administration props for one thing though, they didn't fly the C-130 load of WOMD into Iraq at 3am, at least not yet. They have combed that country clean, and no WOMD. If right before election time this mystery load of chemicals has been found, I will revoke these props, but until then nice job for not lying about it.

"At the same point in the war in Vietnam fewer Americans died than have been senselessly killed in Iraq. For what? A puppet presidents public approval rating."

Right, if you look at the stats that way, this war/police action is worse than Viet Nam.

"If you think the hundreds of Americans killed and the thousands of americans wounded to capture a cheap political substitute for Osama Bin Laden is worth it, you've got BIG problems."

OBL is there, and if/when he is caught/dies, there will be someone else. We can't force people into thinking our way, all we can do is respect their beliefs and culture.

"WHERE THE HELL IS BIN LADEN????"

Let's run a, "Where's Waldo contest!!!"

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: I see only a few similarities. One similarity is that the allied forces did stop both of them. How is that a difference?

We did nothing to stop Hitler. We gave him 10 years to build a huge military power before the war even started. Even when he "annexed" other countries nobody tried to stop him yet. Most countries thought that if they would stay neutral, Hitler would not harm them. Only when it was way, waaaaaay too late did the world intervene.

quote It is awesome that the world is w/o Saddam, but it is really only symbolic.

You seem to underestimate the huge (I wish I had more ways to highlight the word "huge" here) importance of symbolism in the middle-east.

quote When we caught Ted Bundy and executed him, did rape murders cease?

Appels and pears...

quote The point Jeff made and I agree with is that the capture of Saddam wasn’t worth the price.

So you'd rather wait until it was worth the price? When would that be? When a small portable nuke was set off in his name or funded by him downtown New York? Extreme? Yes. Impossible? Not at all. It was after all on his wish list.

One of the good things about this is that somebody actually did not underestimate the threat.

quote What if they had nukes, as with N. Korea?

If the US/UN hadn't intervened a decade ago, he would have had them by now for sure.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Actually, you don't spend many more times than other countries. If you look at military expenditure as a percentage of GDP, then Iraq is spending (under sanctions!) about as much as the USA does.

I realize you didn't research the GDP figures Cliff, but GDP has little relevance here. I found a great definition of GDP:

"The GDP is simply a gross measure of market activity, of money changing hands. It makes no distinction whatsoever between the desirable and the undesirable, or costs and gain. On top of that, it looks only at the portion of reality that economists choose to acknowledge--the part involved in monetary transactions. The crucial economic functions performed in the household and volunteer sectors go entirely unreckoned. As a result the GDPnot only masks the breakdown of the social structure and the natural habitat upon which the economy--and life itself--ultimately depend; worse, it actually portrays such breakdown as economic gain."

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ecbig/gdp.htm

So when it comes to military spending, I think it is more relevant to measure what a country puts forth in gross dollars as opposed to market activity. So yes, per my website reference we spend many times more gross dollars than does any other country.

"And yes, you answered your own question. The USA has signed numerous treaties that regulates the use of WOMD. Iraq has never signed such a treaty (other than under pressure of the UN sanctions) and has shown in the not so distant past they will not think twice about using them."

OK, the Netherlands is quite a substantial country and spends a fair amount on their military, but what if your country was a dump like Iraq, would you feel that using unethical weapons was justified to keep up with the big boys? I would. If you were being attacked by 3 guys, would you find it fair to resort to any mean neccessary? I would.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: I want to give this administration props for one thing though, they didn't fly the C-130 load of WOMD into Iraq at 3am, at least not yet. They have combed that country clean, and no WOMD. If right before election time this mystery load of chemicals has been found, I will revoke these props, but until then nice job for not lying about it.

So you'll give them props for what you consider to be a failure (finding no WMD), but if the WMD are found, you'll revoke those props. So you're happy if there's a failure and won't believe a success. If anything is found, you'll cry conspiracy regardless of any evidence because you've decided what you're going to believe in advance. Ok. No wonder you're not happy with anything.

Oh, and learn how to use the QUOTE tags if you're gonna do multiple quotes.

The biggest difference between Hussein and Hitler are we stopped Hussein BEFORE major world conflict. With Hitler we ignored what was going on until it was almost too late to stop him. How much shorter WWII could have been had we got into the fight with Britian at the beginning.

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quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: Hitler did turn on his own people at the end of the war. I'm not talking about the Jews, I'm talking about the german people that had supported him all during the war. When it became obvious he couldn't win the war, he tried to destroy as much as possible of his own country and people. In fact, in the last months both german and allied forces were bombing the same cities at the same time.

I won't compete with your knowledge of Europe in any era, or at any level. Being a European-born citizen, you must have learned volumes about all of Europe.

So your point is another comparison; I still think the protocol and organization of these two dictators makes them entirely different. Another difference with these two wars (WWII and Iraq) is that after the capture/death of the leaders, one war was over, the other is still in full effect. I used the Hitler reference as a contrast, if others disagree, I respect that, but I see primarily differences.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: I want to give this administration props for one thing though, they didn't fly the C-130 load of WOMD into Iraq at 3am, at least not yet. They have combed that country clean, and no WOMD. If right before election time this mystery load of chemicals has been found, I will revoke these props, but until then nice job for not lying about it.

Combed the country clean? Oh, good gawd, gimme a ****ing break. I said it in another thread, I'll say it here again...

Iraq is the size of California. Give me dictatorial rule over California so that I have access to all of the land. Give me 5, 10 or 50 barrels full of toxic ooze and give me 10 years to hide them. In fact, just to make California more like Iraq, level most of the mountains and clear-cut all of the forests. Make it mosly desert. I guaran-f***ing-tee you, you will NEVER find them. I'll bet my house.

Also, we KNOW he had WMD, at least chemical and biological crap. How? We GAVE them to him, when we thought he was a swell guy and was fighting an enemy that (at the time) seemed the bigger problem - Iran. Or have you forgotten about our old Embassy-storming, hostage taking buddies? OK, Saddam turned out to be a badass, giving him the juice was a bad move. But, ain't hindsight grand?

Saddam turned out to be a bad buddy, and Iran has toned it down. We got Saddam, and the remaining insurgents are former Saddam loyalists, who are now out of a job, and are joined by foreign mercenaries who hate America. How much you wanna bet the insurgency starts to crumble?

A quick look at the scoreboard tells us we're winning, so quit your whining.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: They have combed that country clean, and no WOMD.

Excuse me? Where the heck do you get your information from, Ed? They aren't anywhere near even searching the suspect spots, because resources continually had to be diverted elsewhere. Hell, we even know the location of 273 mass-graves and so far only 70 or so have been visited.

You really think you can find something so quickly? Let me tell you a few stories.

The search-area was 100 square miles. The thing itself was 883 feet long, 92 feet wide and weighed 46,328 tons. Yet it took 73 years to find the HMS Titanic.

Another example. Our country (Holland) is literally littered with unexploded bombs from WWII. We are probably talking hundreds if not thousands of unexploded bombs. And no small things either. The kinda bombs that can wipe out a few blocks. We know they are there and we are actively searching for them. Yet we are happy if we find one or two a year. We even know where to look for them but still it's incredibly hard to find them, and 99% of them are found by accident. Last year we found one in Rotterdam when building a subway system. This year one was found on the beach by playing children.

Don't kid yourself. Iraq is 177,000 square miles of mostly desert. You can hide a lot of Titanics there.

quote Originally posted by fierobear: A quick look at the scoreboard tells us we're winning, so quit your whining.

"Combed the country clean? Oh, good gawd, gimme a ****ing break. I said it in another thread, I'll say it here again...

Iraq is the size of California. Give me dictatorial rule over California so that I have access to all of the land. Give me 5, 10 or 50 barrels full of toxic ooze and give me 10 years to hide them. In fact, just to make California more like Iraq, level most of the mountains and clear-cut all of the forests. Make it mosly desert. I guaran-f***ing-tee you, you will NEVER find them. I'll bet my house."

Sure, but with our advanced intelligence I would think they would know where to find at least a bit of them if they exist.

"Also, we KNOW he had WMD, at least chemical and biological crap. How? We GAVE them to him, when we thought he was a swell guy and was fighting an enemy that (at the time) seemed the bigger problem - Iran."

So what does that make us? So is it that we object to the use of chemical warfare on humans, or just that we object to them being used on our definition of the good guys? Aren't we an accessory to all people that might have died as a result of the chemicals?

"Or have you forgotten about our old Embassy-storming, hostage taking buddies? OK, Saddam turned out to be a badass, giving him the juice was a bad move. But, ain't hindsight grand?"

But then we call him a cheater for not using conventional warfare and using the chemicals we provided? I think the excuse of no hindsight is a bit of a cop-out. We knew of the dangers of agent orange, so we also knoew of the dangers of the chemicals we provided over there.

"Saddam turned out to be a bad buddy, and Iran has toned it down."

We're being played for the fools that we're acting. They change sides and milk us for money and weapons. Is it halftime yet?

"We got Saddam, and the remaining insurgents are former Saddam loyalists, who are now out of a job, and are joined by foreign mercenaries who hate America. How much you wanna bet the insurgency starts to crumble?"

No way. Do you think Saddam didn't establish an infrastructure? Besides, the bulk of the new terrorists are reportedly from Saudi. Ever watch the movie, "Seven?" Maybe it really gets ugly now that Saddam is caught. Hopefully it's over so no more allied lives are lost. This is a great day, but at the same time, possibly meaningless as with the capture of Noriega.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: I realize you didn't research the GDP figures Cliff, but GDP has little relevance here. I found a great definition of GDP:

Great because it fits your argument. But the American Heritage Dictionary defines GDP as:

quote gross domestic product n. Abbr. GDP The total market value of all the goods and services produced within the borders of a nation during a specified period.

So in my optics, it has a lot of relevance. If I would make $1,000 per month and I would spend $900 of it on my Fiero, I would be irresponsible. If I would make $10,000 per month (that'll be the day) and still spent $900 of it on my Fiero, my Fiero would be nothing more than a moderate hobby.

quote Originally posted by Cliff Pennock: They aren't anywhere near even searching the suspect spots, because resources continually had to be diverted elsewhere. Hell, we even know the location of 273 mass-graves and so far only 70 or so have been visited. You really think you can find something so quickly? Let me tell you a few stories. The search-area was 100 square miles. The thing itself was 883 feet long, 92 feet wide and weighed 46,328 tons. Yet it took 73 years to find the HMS Titanic. Another example. Our country (Holland) is literally littered with unexploded bombs from WWII. We are probably talking hundreds if not thousands of unexploded bombs. And no small things either. The kinda bombs that can wipe out a few blocks. We know they are there and we are actively searching for them. Yet we are happy if we find one or two a year. We even know where to look for them but still it's incredibly hard to find them, and 99% of them are found by accident. Last year we found one in Rotterdam when building a subway system. This year one was found on the beach by playing children. Don't kid yourself. Iraq is 177,000 square miles of mostly desert. You can hide a lot of Titanics there.

"Excuse me? Where the heck do you get your information from, Ed?"

Same place as you Cliff, the media. I realize they have searched only a percentage of the country, but with intelligence they should have know general locations if the WOMD actually existed.

I see what you're saying about lost corners, as on Guam, which is only 30 miles long and 4-8 miles wide, they were still finding bombs from WWII in the 1980's. I suspect right before election time the WOMD will be found.

quote Originally posted by I'm Back: Same place as you Cliff, the media. I realize they have searched only a percentage of the country,

Which is it, did they search a percentage of the country, or did they wipe the country clean?

quote but with intelligence they should have know general locations if the WOMD actually existed.

Like I said, we know the general locations of unexploded bombs in our country too. Still we can't find them. And mind you, when we are searching, there isn't some group of people trying to blow our heads of while we are at it.

quote I suspect right before election time the WOMD will be found.

Are you suggesting that if they find WOMD between now and 11 months, it's suspect and they were planted? That's just conspiracy talk. No, it's in fact complete and utter BS. I'm always so utterly amazed (as a European) about some americans that always use the upcoming elections as an excuse that something isn't what it appears to be. So what are you suggesting? A new law that prevents a president from doing anything the last year of his term?

It's a good day for the world Saddam is caught. All the troops over in Iraq are awsome and doing an outstanding job. The Iraqi's dancing and celebrating in the streets says it all.

I am sure that the happiest people are the...

relatives;
of the people that were fed into plastic shredders,

" " that had their testicles crushed by Saddams henchmen

" " the grooms that had their brides stolen from the altar and brutally raped and tortured.

" " of the kurds that were gassed.

and the thousands upon thousands murdered by this maniacal dictatorship.

The saddest people are Ed and Jeff,
another military victory for the Bush administration.

Just another reason why liberals cannot be trusted with national security.

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/focus/images/attack.jpg

[This message has been edited by trailboss (edited 12-14-2003).]