quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: I didn't know all that. My big concern is how much preventative maintenance to the engine and block is "enough" to ensure longevity of the motor? I will definitely keep the pulley, rockers, headers etc in mind.

Good news bad news....

Good news... You're not looking to make enough power to keep darkhorizon's and justinbart's attention. Bad news is they'll still dump in here because they think that the stock 3800, regardless of mileage, doesn't need to be rebuilt. It's going to be more important to argue this point than it will be to assist in any way.

My opinion is if all you can find is a > 100k mile engine, then maybe look into a refreshing at least. If it has less miles, then you'll probably be ok without, just make sure you check the engine carefully. Some of the built stuff has had the piss beat out of it, so if you buy a second hand built engine, I'd be even more careful.

Ok Scott and Justin, here's your chance.....

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: luckily it doesnt work this way.

That's because someone keeps shooting thier mouth off........ both here & OFF the forum. That's right bigmouth, i know & heard the B.S. you've been spewing

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MINNESOTA MAFIA Real men get blown If you're going to run your mouth make sure the proof isn't all over the net that you're full of sh!t.
87 GT MP-112 powered, 3800 Supercharged on 19's 372 rwhp & tuning____88 GT T-top 1 of very few, 000,204.1 miles
87 GT custom______90 Grand prix STE Turbo_____2007GSXR 1000
Nitrous is like a hot chick with an STD, Ya want to hit it, but are afraid of the consequences.
IF YOU AIN'T BREAKING STUFF..................IT AIN'T MODDED ENOUGH
If your'e not living on the edge..........you're taking up too much room.
Best Fiero mounts available

quote Originally posted by PURPLE REIGN: That's because someone keeps shooting thier mouth off........ both here & OFF the forum. That's right bigmouth, i know & heard the B.S. you've been spewing

Feel free to enlighten me on all of my BS ways... last time I checked still have just about every fiero record there is in the world of 3800 stuff... my BS seems to work just fine for me.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Feel free to enlighten me on all of my BS ways... last time I checked still have just about every fiero record there is in the world of 3800 stuff... my BS seems to work just fine for me.

LMAO ok sorry had to quote that for the records. As you were.....

I normally shop for very low mileage 3800's and try for 2004 or newer. I'd rather spend $1500-$2000 on a 10,000 mile motor than $200 on a 150,000 mile motor because my time is worth more than pulling the engine twice.

Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I normally shop for very low mileage 3800's and try for 2004 or newer. I'd rather spend $1500-$2000 on a 10,000 mile motor than $200 on a 150,000 mile motor because my time is worth more than pulling the engine twice. Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I normally shop for very low mileage 3800's and try for 2004 or newer. I'd rather spend $1500-$2000 on a 10,000 mile motor than $200 on a 150,000 mile motor because my time is worth more than pulling the engine twice. Dave

Man's got a point.

Thanks Dave. I'll be on the lookout for those once I get back. Took a look at the zzp website and was surprised by their prices, at least for the pully change. But when I looked at their headers, there were several options. Are there specific ones that are best for the fiero? I'm not looking for MOAR HORS3POWERz, but hedging against the fact that once bitten by the hp bug, I'll want to keep adding like you've suggested.

Secondly, most of the kits I've seen have a "low-mount" alt bracket, but in a couple build threads (mainly N/A) they have a high-mount. Is that aesthetic or functional?

[This message has been edited by brotherhood_of_nod (edited 11-07-2012).]

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: Thanks Dave. I'll be on the lookout for those once I get back. Took a look at the zzp website and was surprised by their prices, at least for the pully change. But when I looked at their headers, there were several options. Are there specific ones that are best for the fiero? I'm not looking for MOAR HORS3POWERz, but hedging against the fact that once bitten by the hp bug, I'll want to keep adding like you've suggested. Secondly, most of the kits I've seen have a "low-mount" alt bracket, but in a couple build threads (mainly N/A) they have a high-mount. Is that aesthetic or functional?

The purpose of the low mount alternator is to: give a cleaner appearance; eliminate the need to notch the decklid; give a location for a dogbone.
When I designed the headers with my tech Ryan, I set aside specific guidelines that we had to adhere to.

The material must be stainless steel. I was them to outlast the car.

The connections must not use gaskets and 3 bolt flanges like WCF because they always blow out. We opted for ball flares or v-bands

They must be functional. We did a comparison against stock manifolds, WCF's headers and ZZP's powerlogs. The stock manifolds are pretty restrictive and have been known to have flow issues. WCF's headers created more restriction and KR than stock manifolds. ZZP's powerlogs were decent and reduced KR. Our headers flow rather well and I would sy headers in general are the best option to reduce KR. I have seen other brands that flow just as well as ours....we are not magicians.

This was the tricky part and required a lot of pre planning. They had to give a great sound. That was more important to me initially than anything else. My car sounds awesome and doesn't use that muffler that is in the previous video.

Now, if you do you with a smaller supercharger pulley, use a quick change style like ZZP's or intense. I have changed my pulley size more times than I can remember because of the various mods. I started with a 3.4" and I am currently running a 2.8"

I have yet to see a harness that compares to the Injection Technology harness. Yes its expensive, but it is 100% new and all GM color coded and with the correct weatherpak connectors.





That is the L67 harness I purchased for my swap back in '08. Otherwise, phonedawgz is always helping members with wiring issues even if its not his. So, if you need a harness, I'd go with a guy thats doing just that.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 11-07-2012).]

That is a lot of great info, guys.

I may be changing gears here a little; please bear with me.

My impressions so far:

-The 3800sc build seems to be pretty established, but gets hairy when you start mixing series II with series III trans, or even going all series III.
-Reliability of the 3800 seems to be in question after 100k. Because I'm looking to make this a DD, is this true? Or as long as I find a lower mileage motor and maintain it (and not completely thrash it on a daily basis) It'll be ok?
-Wiring and programming will be a major hassle/expense. One or the other. Not necessarily a negative, it's just part of the work.

I'm not looking to start another firestorm or whatever by asking this next question.

What are the benefits of going 3800sc, as opposed to say, a LS4/4t65-HD? I've seen a couple F40 swaps in the forum. Is the swap that much more difficult? Is it an established swap? I'm digging into the archives and such, but input would be appreciated. Or is there a more established V8 swap that's fairly "easy". That being a relative term. I'm more than likely going to automatic, so I'm curious as to how much more difficult the wiring from an LS4/4t65-hd would be compared to a 3800 II or III /4t65-HD.

After discussions with my wife, we're looking at more of an extended build in a family member's garage, as compared to my initial goal of having a quick build ready soon after I get home. So I'm open to options.

At this point, the 3800sc is still the direction I'm leaning, if for nothing else, because of the huge amount of expertise in this build. And it's within my end-state HP.

EDIT - Been doing more reading on the LS4..and holy crap it looks complicated. Probably stick with the 3800.

[This message has been edited by brotherhood_of_nod (edited 11-08-2012).]

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: EDIT - Been doing more reading on the LS4..and holy crap it looks complicated. Probably stick with the 3800.

The LS4 swap is quite complicated. It is a very tight fit, has a funky water pump setup that causes fitment issues,and has a lot more wiring than any other swap. 4 wires per coil x 8 coils, 8 wires for the DBW throttle body and another 6 to the pedal assy, 5 wires to the DoD connector, etc... Then you have the separate TCM that wires into the transmission and ECM with another 20+ wires. If you want to keep DoD, then you need the 3 wires to the brake booster as well.

There are over 100+ 3800 swaps and possibly over 3-400 with the vast majority being DIY with 50+ build threads of information. I would estimate that there are less than 10 running LS4 swaps in existence and about 10 more in the works. So there is no where near the documentation or support. The other challenge is the LS4 spans the Gen3 and Gen 4 families with the early ones using the E40 ecm and the later ones using the E67. So from a wiring standpoint, not all LS4's are the same.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: The LS4 swap is quite complicated. It is a very tight fit, has a funky water pump setup that causes fitment issues,and has a lot more wiring than any other swap. 4 wires per coil x 8 coils, 8 wires for the DBW throttle body and another 6 to the pedal assy, 5 wires to the DoD connector, etc... Then you have the separate TCM that wires into the transmission and ECM with another 20+ wires. If you want to keep DoD, then you need the 3 wires to the brake booster as well. There are over 100+ 3800 swaps and possibly over 3-400 with the vast majority being DIY with 50+ build threads of information. I would estimate that there are less than 10 running LS4 swaps in existence and about 10 more in the works. So there is no where near the documentation or support. The other challenge is the LS4 spans the Gen3 and Gen 4 families with the early ones using the E40 ecm and the later ones using the E67. So from a wiring standpoint, not all LS4's are the same.

Yeah, I was reading into all the difficulties some have had. My initial thought ran along the lines of "well, it's in some of the same cars, uses the 65-HD trans...how much more complicated can it be?"
Pretty difficult, it seems. Being a non-mechanic, the 3800sc poses quite a challange as-is; there's no way I'm capable of doing a LS4. Thanks for lending your knowledge, though. Everything is helpful!

3800's last WELL over 100k miles, especially if properly cared for. That's the thing, you'll want to make sure you're starting with the best footing possible. These engines are tanks that can withstand a lot of abuse, but I wouldn't necessarily start with one that's been abused. I'm sure others will disagree, but it's my logic. If you do a 3800 swap, you'll have a VERY reliable car that will be great to drive. Just like all things, do it right and don't take the wrong shortcuts and you'll never regret it.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 11-08-2012).]

Some more questions. It's rather boring here in the desert; a good thing, considering Iran is less than 200 miles away (and some water). Gives me time to think about what I want and how to do it.

I've been on the fence about what transmission I want. I've been fearful about changing over to the manual, because I've heard over and over growing up that changing to a manual is a nightmare. I've got an 87 at my parents that has the 4spd. It's been sitting for over a decade, though. So, some questions about that:

- Do you think that the trans is still good? If I recall the car had 80k. Maybe.
- Is the Fiero manual system hydraulic or just using cables? If cables, I'm guessing (provided the fiero is stripped down to basics) that it isn't too horrible to change over?
- What parts from the donor manual would I want to take, besides the transmission and lines? I'd probably install a Rodney Dickman Short/Sport shifter (not sure which)
- Is the Muncie 4 spd compatable with the 88 cradle?

This leads me to the next set of questions. Still unsure of the motor I want. It'll come down to cost, budget at the time, and availability of motors.
- What kind of hp range can the 4spd handle? Can it take a 3800sc?

And finally, a few questions about SBCs.
-What are the benefits of a 3.8 over an SBC?
- Has anybody built a 305 SBC fiero? I know it's not that great of a motor (about 20hp less than the 350), but it can be built up.

Thanks for everything so far. Any info is welcome.

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Happiness is not around the corner. It is the corner.

An onramp is a terrible thing to waste.

"The greatest risk is not taking one" -AIG Commercial

Hey bro, just got done reading everything lol... And if you can let me know on how you're feeling, thanks!
I'm pretty negotiable... Let me know.

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: Some more questions. It's rather boring here in the desert; a good thing, considering Iran is less than 200 miles away (and some water). Gives me time to think about what I want and how to do it. I've been on the fence about what transmission I want. I've been fearful about changing over to the manual, because I've heard over and over growing up that changing to a manual is a nightmare. I've got an 87 at my parents that has the 4spd. It's been sitting for over a decade, though. So, some questions about that: - Do you think that the trans is still good? If I recall the car had 80k. Maybe. - Is the Fiero manual system hydraulic or just using cables? If cables, I'm guessing (provided the fiero is stripped down to basics) that it isn't too horrible to change over? - What parts from the donor manual would I want to take, besides the transmission and lines? I'd probably install a Rodney Dickman Short/Sport shifter (not sure which) - Is the Muncie 4 spd compatable with the 88 cradle? This leads me to the next set of questions. Still unsure of the motor I want. It'll come down to cost, budget at the time, and availability of motors. - What kind of hp range can the 4spd handle? Can it take a 3800sc? And finally, a few questions about SBCs. -What are the benefits of a 3.8 over an SBC? - Has anybody built a 305 SBC fiero? I know it's not that great of a motor (about 20hp less than the 350), but it can be built up. Thanks for everything so far. Any info is welcome.

Go for the F23 if you want a manual. It can handle the power and is easier to deal with. There's a good write-up here....

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html

3800 is easier and cheaper than a SBC. While SBC's have some documentation, you'll probably find a lot more support for the 3800 swap. Look through the build threads and talk to people like Katatak, as he's done both.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 11-09-2012).]

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: luckily it doesnt work this way.

Quite the hypocrite aren't you?

When I build swaps, I build driver's cars. I think out of the 20 something swaps I have done only two were auto trans setups. Out of my 6 vehicles I own, only 1 has an auto trans.
I would decide what you want out of the car as your first step. If you can tolerate driving an auto car, and you would prefer it, go for it.
I have built both v8 and v6 swaps....owned both. If you go with a v8, forget the sbc and go with a LS3. My sbc got old really quick. If you go with a 3800, pull the oil pan. If there is a sludge buildup, return the motor and get another. This is why I shoot for low mileage.
the f40 is great, but a pain in the ass with a 3800. I completed 2 3800/f40 swaps and I know the formula to make it work, but I still don't think it is worth the effort unless you are a commuter.
Dave

quote Originally posted by Phirewire: Quite the hypocrite aren't you?

what is that suppose to even mean? I assume you cant read the context of what I said and just randomly posting crap but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: careful with "bmw guru" see "project Midturbo"

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Yes, I dropped the ball on that swap. I dropped the ball by letting the customer design the swap, provide the parts, and control the build. We did the best we could until we just gave up out of frustration. This is what I was told to build with the exhaust by the "engineer". The cat is after the muffler which will never allow it to get to temperature to fire off, the o2 is too close to the turbo, and there is no way in hell all that tubing would fit....and I was instructed to not cut the trunk. I didn't disclose a lot of what went on with that build, but there was a lot more behind the scenes than either me or Alltrbo let on.

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: not trying to be a dick or take this thread OT, but I can't let this slide by unseen. not even the same thread pitch... it's just plain sad, and I don't think that can be blamed on design or customer preference. If you don't like the customers ideas, refuse the job, it's that simple. That's all I'm going to say, no more.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: yup....and I fired my entire staff after seeing that. I know when we had initially put that together, the correct bolts were used. We did have to disassemble the swap at one point to fix some issues and my employees took care of that while I was in the process of diagnosing German cars. I also refunded Alltrbo some money, but he never mentioned that. I lost over $4000 out of my pocket building that car. Regardless I didn't really like the guys working for me and I didn't trust them, so they had to go. I am a complete dick to work for, but we have a less than 1% comeback rate on German cars and we haven't had a single comeback since the new staff has been hired. I have the best rep in the area for German cars. That was then, I have a new staff that kicks ass and we really don't have the heart to continue doing swaps other than for ourselves. Maybe our opinion will change after taking some time off, but we all agreed that we are done with the pushrod dinosaurs. My head tech is doing a turbo Ecotec in his Fiero and I'm doing the Saab V6 turbo. If we continue swaps, it will be Ecotec based and probably the High Feature V6, but not 3800 based anymore. Besides, everybody in this business has one car that bites them in the ass. If you keep hammering down on those builders, eventually you will have to build your own car because there won't be any more builders. Dave

Yes, I'm late to the party.
The workmanship in many items on that car the way it left your shop is well documented. Even a poor design can be well executed, so don't throw it back on the customer.

Your story about your staff reminds me of the shop that did the crankshaft work on my Northstar. I had the journals cut .010 by a crankshaft shop that the local machinist who did my block trusts with high end parts. The crank came back .0004 out of round and/or taper on main and rod journals, and the surface finish was crap. Sizes were off as well, so instead of rod bearing clearance in the low .002's, it's .003. It runs, obviously (and makes great power to boot), but I have to prep another crankshaft (and pull/open up the engine to install it...) to get it up to my standards. My local guy still trusts him and says he's fired some staff, turned away some of the work he was doing just to pay bills and generally fixed the way the shop is run.
Guess what? I'm still not going back to them for my next crank.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-21-2012).]

I have an 5 speed 87 gt with a west coast fiero 3.8 turbo swap, Rodney ball joints, complete Koni coilover lowered suspension, cvettte brakes, crossdrilled/slotted rotors (not mounted yet, they need tig welded and redrilled to 5x100), nice rims, excellent tires, and water/meth injection at the dyno shop right now. I might part with it for the right offer. I'm US Army Retired (medical retirement) 68W hooah, thanks for your service.

Won't officially be willing to sell it until they finish tuning the Haltech ecu and get final HP numbers, but the 355 I'm looking at comes with a v8 swap kit so in open to selling the turbo fiero. My original plan was to transplant the motor from this one to a stretched 355, till I found out I get a v8 kit free (w00t!) I don't think I can resist the temptation of a turbocharged crate 383 stroker in a Ferrari replica.

[This message has been edited by jasonfox (edited 11-21-2012).]

It would be nice if everyone posting here would quit bellyaching and bad mouthing each other in veiled attempts to get a swap job to line your pockets. Just post what you charge for swaps and quit bad mouthing each others work. **** happens, no matter who you are, or how many swaps you've done.

My 3800sc build is based on a L26 NA bottom end these motors can be found alot easier and with way less Km Mine had 3500km on it came compleate minus ATL and Stater and wireing didnt need it anyway, inspected motor and was super clean pulled heads off and everything looked brand new still had origional OEM out of factory oil filter, Against so many un named peoples advise i built a heavely modded SC motor with the L26 bottom end, I had the entier motor torn down and fully balanced, balance shaft removed and oil hole filled properly, L67 heads were re built as well with 105 VS and a 3 angle valve job everything was put together with a XP cam more mods than you can think of intercooled running a 3 inch pully N* Tb ported blower you name it !!
after a break in period the motor was pushed while tuneing ZERO KR motor runs like a champ so all these who tell you a rebuild done right is not worth it try telling that to some one who did a swap 3 times due to **** low mile origional motors,

Just an update. Back in Texas for demob, then back to MO in a couple days. Life intervened and I have to really scale back my plans for a bit, lol. Our plan now is to get my Fiero running with the 2.5 and use it as a daily while I go to flight school (Army,) starting in October. The engine needs to be rebuilt or replaced. My dad is looking for mechanics in the area (NE OHIO) that he knows who are willing to do it. But also I'd like the sail section replaced (I have one) while it's in ohio so I can paint it here in MO. Brakes and emergency brake lever need to be replaced as well. If anybody has mechanic suggestions in that area that'd be helpful too. I'd like to get it fixed by Memorial Day, as my wife and I will be in Ohio around then, and we could pick up the car there.

How involved is swapping the sail section? I'm not entirely sure how to get the roof section off.

Second question. When it comes time for wheels and tires - what's the maximum size wheel that the Fiero can take without suspension modifications? I remember reading way back that it was 17in.

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Happiness is not around the corner. It is the corner.

An onramp is a terrible thing to waste.

"The greatest risk is not taking one" -AIG Commercial

[This message has been edited by brotherhood_of_nod (edited 04-26-2013).]

Another question popped up in conversation. What are the consequences of cutting out the cat entirely on the 4cyl? Considering that, or possibly thefierostore's mods to add a aftermarket cat. Anybody cut out their catalyitic converter? I wonder if it'll affect how the motor runs; if the TBI/ECU relies on the backpressure or whatever. Thanks!

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Happiness is not around the corner. It is the corner.

An onramp is a terrible thing to waste.

"The greatest risk is not taking one" -AIG Commercial

I wouldn't bother throwing money at that Duke. I made that mistake when I bought my Fiero 84 Fiero thinking I could daily it, rebuild the 2.5 until I had enough money to buy a V8 for it and do the Diablo conversion and in the end I lost 2k for being foolish.

Buy a beater POS off craigslist for under 1k if your looking for a daily until your done with school and keep putting money aside for your project and let the car sit until after flight school.

[This message has been edited by VF1Skullangel (edited 04-28-2013).]