quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I would say it is quite obviously a joke as we have significantly more power and "parts" then this fabled $10000 3800... double the power usually means double the cost so conservatively guess at 20k seems accurate.

Joke... Got it. Hard to tell sometimes. Parts definitely add up, most of my payment to Dave went to parts. He's not making as much in labor on swaps as people might think.

Gmtuners is above the drama factory this place makes and doesn't look for projects on here.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: In terms of making money with auto work.. charging crazy money for parts is the oldest trick in the book.

I didn't mark up Fiero parts at all. I treated it as a hobby, not a business. I used to enjoy doing the swaps. My German car parts are marked up 50%. Now, after I restructure the Fiero swaps, I will be marking up parts. That is why swaps and repairs will be almost double what they were, but they will not be a side project anymore. If no one wants a swap from me, then so be it.

I am not afraid to drop $50,000 on one of my toys. Maybe I'm at the part in my life where that is what I want. I could afford to buy a new Ford GT, mid range Ferrari, or new Vette, but I really, truely enjoy driving my Fiero. I don't need to go 10 seconds in the 1/4 mile and I really don't care what anyone else thinks of me.

edit:

That $12,500 that my tech is selling his swap for. He is getting $11,500. I told him I want $1000 for using the shop for the weekend. I am a dick to work for, but that is me. Secondly, price out the xp hot cam, ported heads, a cnc ported blower, all the fuel system, cooling system, a low mount alternator, belts, oil, performance clutch, flywheel, short stack intercooler, zzp MPS, the cold air intake, N* TB setup, my wiring harness, tuning, donor motor...etc See how fast the parts add up

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 11-05-2012).]

I was going to reply that I didn't see where my parts had been marked up. I guess it doesn't really matter anymore since Dave's shop is moving in a different direction. I'll be honest, I don't know if I'd be willing to buy Ryan's swap, considering the cars that are available in that price range. I will say one thing though now that I've thought about it. Most shops take months to build this swap for someone, one thing to consider is someone would be without their car for a weekend on this. Having it done that quickly has to be worth something too. If someone's car has sentimental value, and they don't want a different car, then this would be a way to go.

And to clarify, if I had it to do again, I would have bought AkursedX's car instead of fully building mine. Nothing having to do with Dave or his shop, they probably still would have gotten the car, but I would have saved quite a bit of money that way.

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 11-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: edit: That $12,500 that my tech is selling his swap for. He is getting $11,500. I told him I want $1000 for using the shop for the weekend. I am a dick to work for, but that is me. Secondly, price out the xp hot cam, ported heads, a cnc ported blower, all the fuel system, cooling system, a low mount alternator, belts, oil, performance clutch, flywheel, short stack intercooler, zzp MPS, the cold air intake, N* TB setup, my wiring harness, tuning, donor motor...etc See how fast the parts add up

Hell I priced out my setup retail and I struggle to get to 8k and more than half of that is in the trans... to think you could ever ever put more than a few thousand bucks into a stock sc motor is just dumb.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Hell I priced out my setup retail and I struggle to get to 8k and more than half of that is in the trans... to think you could ever ever put more than a few thousand bucks into a stock sc motor is just dumb.

sorry, we don't shop at the junkyard.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Hell I priced out my setup retail and I struggle to get to 8k and more than half of that is in the trans... to think you could ever ever put more than a few thousand bucks into a stock sc motor is just dumb.

I guess it depends. Ryan's swap probably has a set of his custom headers on it, which go for >$1,500. Then you have the heads, which aren't stock and would go for >$1,500. He mentioned functioning a/c and some other things there. I can see the cost if someone bought all that stuff new. Then there's labor. If you could get $8.5k for yours, wouldn't you expect to make at least $2k in labor for swapping all this over for someone?

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: sorry, we don't shop at the junkyard.

Explain what junkyard I can get a 1inch chain built trans from, or a precision turbo, or a 1000hp intercoolr system, or a fuel system, or a cam from or 130# springs or a double timing chain or slicks and skinnies or an external waste gate or a trial 50mm bov... I would love to know so I can save money next time.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Explain what junkyard I can get a 1inch chain built trans from, or a precision turbo, or a 1000hp intercoolr system, or a fuel system, or a cam from or 130# springs or a double timing chain or slicks and skinnies or an external waste gate or a trial 50mm bov... I would love to know so I can save money next time.

Not arguing, but I thought you were using a different turbo. I remember you also saying at one point that you were able to buy either the bov or waste gate at a junkyard. Did you buy any of your parts used off of club gp?

If I'm looking for a 3.8 sc swap or donor... From my perusings I'm guessing the 4t65-hd is the preferred trans? Or just the -e?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Not arguing, but I thought you were using a different turbo. I remember you also saying at one point that you were able to buy either the bov or waste gate at a junkyard. Did you buy any of your parts used off of club gp?

I barely have 4 k into my parts specifically ... I said clearly before that retail my setup don't come close... my trans and turbo setup installed at Zzp in my gtp was less than 12k

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: If I'm looking for a 3.8 sc swap or donor... From my perusings I'm guessing the 4t65-hd is the preferred trans? Or just the -e?

HD is what most people look for.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: Explain what junkyard I can get a 1inch chain built trans from, or a precision turbo, or a 1000hp intercoolr system, or a fuel system, or a cam from or 130# springs or a double timing chain or slicks and skinnies or an external waste gate or a trial 50mm bov... I would love to know so I can save money next time.

I didn't know you upgraded. Ryan informed me his motor was completely rebuilt with ARP head and main studs, connecting rod bolts, rings & bearings. I'm not looking to send this thread off topic, but I'm not going to be told that his swap isn't worth it.

Here is the for sale link on my website.
http://hausofguru.com/for_sale.html

I also realize that the OP is not looking to buy his swap, so I will do my best to stay on topic.

Good luck man. My fiero is currently undergoing during-deployment upgrades. Well see how far it gets, depending on how soon my next one is (could be within four to six months upon return) I may finally get it all finished.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: I didn't know you upgraded. Ryan informed me his motor was completely rebuilt with ARP head and main studs, connecting rod bolts, rings & bearings. I'm not looking to send this thread off topic, but I'm not going to be told that his swap isn't worth it.

As we all know the rebuilt motor concept is a downgrade in value vs a OEM motor, so it is not even a factor in the price of a "running swap". I wouldnt go near something that claims a rebuild by an amature as the crank is probably ruined and overall a ticking timebomb in terms of rod/crank bearing failure.

quote It's probably old news but why did you move away from a Holset? I thought they were the best bang for the buck? Are you still upgrading, or is this the final incarnation?

I didnt "move away"... I have had a PT6776 in the shop for years so I put it on when I did the new trans instead of finding a HX52. I am fortunate enough to be able to spend a near unlimited amount of money on my fiero so i may opt on the side of convience at times... It still does not mean that a hx52 would perform as good or better than the PT6776 I have on there now.

quote People that spend that much are also looking for form not just function.

The reality is people spending this much money should be looking for a vette... or ...

My experience is people that spend that much money are probably looking for form, and could care less about function.

You stupid fanboys really need to get off that train when we are talking about things of the performance nature. There was never any sacrifices of "form" on my car other than possibly the trunk, bare wiring harness and a few un polished welds.. which is something you can complain about but it is also a completely irrelivant difference in the big picture as it would probably take me less than a few hours to relocate everything to accomidate a stock trunk. These problems are all matters of time or preference, not money or skilled labor. The rest of the complaints about wiring harnesses or painted intakes is preference by the owner and completely seperate from talking about "cost of swap" or whatnot. It would be no different in comparing the price of the swap to anything else external to the swap like shift knobs, paintjobs, body mods, interior mods, gauges, etc.

Thanks, Keen. I'm not seeing too many benifits, as of yet, of having a shop do the work; other than having the Fiero ready to go by the time I get home. Currently discussing with "HOMEFRONT 06" our options. (My wife, for non-Arny types) She'd rather tow it to KC from Ohio and work on it with me when I get home. But I'm still keeping my options open.

[This message has been edited by brotherhood_of_nod (edited 11-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: Thanks, Keen. I'm not seeing too many benifits, as of yet, of having a shop do the work; other than having the Fiero ready to go by the time I get home. Currently discussing with "HOMEFRONT 06" our options. (My wife, for non-Arny types) She'd rather tow it to KC from Ohio and work on it with me when I get home. But I'm still keeping my options open.

Right on, family project for the win. Keep us posted.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: As we all know the rebuilt motor concept is a downgrade in value vs a OEM motor, so it is not even a factor in the price of a "running swap". I wouldnt go near something that claims a rebuild by an amature as the crank is probably ruined and overall a ticking timebomb in terms of rod/crank bearing failure.

Wow, you hit the nail on the head. I totally regret not having Ryan's motor shipped to you so that you could work your magic on it. Now wake up and get real....the motor was properly rebuilt and machined. This is what we do 12/5....we don't work out of our parent's garage.
I'm not worried and pretty certain that his swap will sell.

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: Thanks, Keen. I'm not seeing too many benifits, as of yet, of having a shop do the work; other than having the Fiero ready to go by the time I get home. Currently discussing with "HOMEFRONT 06" our options. (My wife, for non-Arny types) She'd rather tow it to KC from Ohio and work on it with me when I get home. But I'm still keeping my options open.

The benifit for me was being able to keep my project car moving forward despite my crazy schedule. Also, to be honest, I've come up with way more ideas while I was down here than I had in the states - and its nice to be able to send the shop and email and have them begin the project. I just came up with a list of stuff I want to do to the car, then depending on my schedule I put together the stuff for it and try to move forward.

I bought a bunch of stuff for interior work and started pulling my interior out when this deployment came up - so i sent it off to get the transmission replaced and some body work done.

When I get back, depending on the amount of time I have prior to my next trip I'll get into the interior stuff. If I deploy, I may send it somewhere to get squared away. Then I've got wheels, brakes, etc. it will eventually be done.


Although, since my HH6 deploys as frequently as I do, it does cut down on our yearly cost of living. Your grade and incentive pays will determine how gusto you can go.

[This message has been edited by CommanderKeen (edited 11-05-2012).]

Of the 4t65-HDs, what's the best ratio? Of all things auto....gear ratios never made sense to me. I know some are better for accel, others mileage, but I don't know how to tell the difference.

According to Wikipedia, the available gear ratios are:

2:93:1

3:05:1

3:06:1

3:29:1 - Though it appears that this model is mated mostly with V8s in late model GXPs and Buicks.

[This message has been edited by brotherhood_of_nod (edited 11-05-2012).]

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Wow, you hit the nail on the head. I totally regret not having Ryan's motor shipped to you so that you could work your magic on it. Now wake up and get real....the motor was properly rebuilt and machined. This is what we do 12/5....we don't work out of our parent's garage. I'm not worried and pretty certain that his swap will sell.

The problem is most people think that properly rebuilt means cutting the crank... if his crank was modded then its destined for an early grave.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: The problem is most people think that properly rebuilt means cutting the crank... if his crank was modded then its destined for an early grave.

Hey Scott, are you planning on adding anything other than arguing? How about jumping back on topic like we're trying to do.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Hey Scott, are you planning on adding anything other than arguing? How about jumping back on topic like we're trying to do.

It's valid information. If the OP does a 3800 swap he needs to steer clear from rebuilt motors.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

see, you both are giving out false information. We have purchased a rebuilt long block from ZZP and it has been very reliable on a customer's swap. The motor we are selling in the swap had the crank micropolished and the rods/crank balanced as an assembly at the machine shop....the proper way.
You can say that is incorrect whereas I can say that installing a 100,000+ mile motor is incorrect.
You build yours for speed, I build mine for longevity and all around performance: show, street and the occasional strip.

Dave

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: You build yours for speed, I build mine for longevity and all around performance: show, street and the occasional strip. Dave

What about longevity have I missed on my "build" you seem to always know so much about?

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: What about longevity have I missed on my "build" you seem to always know so much about?

Ok Scott, what do you recommend to the OP? I'm guessing you'll say to do it himself, and any 3800 will work regardless of mileage right? What about mounts, which mounts do you recommend? How about available "kits", any of them worth looking into for the OP?

I'm with dave on this one. He should by my setup and i'll install it for $11,499 That's $1,001 cheaper than a rebuilt junk pile making half the horsepower, worse fuel mileage, less dependable.

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Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Ok Scott, what do you recommend to the OP? I'm guessing you'll say to do it himself, and any 3800 will work regardless of mileage right? What about mounts, which mounts do you recommend? How about available "kits", any of them worth looking into for the OP?

I handled my suggestions via pm to avoid the drama here.

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: Of the 4t65-HDs, what's the best ratio? Of all things auto....gear ratios never made sense to me. I know some are better for accel, others mileage, but I don't know how to tell the difference. According to Wikipedia, the available gear ratios are: 2:93:1 3:05:1 3:06:1 3:29:1 - Though it appears that this model is mated mostly with V8s in late model GXPs and Buicks.

I wouldn't worry about it much but its very easy, bigger gear=better Accel, smaller=Speed/Milage.... 3:29:1 would be best for acceleration....

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86 Fiero GTX project now tearing up the street, My build thread! 3800sc, interior, wheels, suspension and more! https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089483.html

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: I handled my suggestions via pm to avoid the drama here.

Good. Lets keep the drama out then shall we?

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Good. Lets keep the drama out then shall we?

Agreed.

quote Originally posted by darkhorizon: What about longevity have I missed on my "build" you seem to always know so much about?

Still looking for this one here.. You seem to be quite sure of yourself on it.

quote Good. Lets keep the drama out then shall we?

luckily it doesnt work this way.

OK, I'm the new guy...NOT!...but a "cut crank" is no more destined for failure than a Norelco Shaver. If you think that cutting a crank will somehow cause an "early" failure of a rebuilt engine, then either you have never rebuilt engines successfully, or you are not yet 30 years old.

A blanket statement of any kind in any forum is reputation suicide. You have to QUALIFY the statement with particulars... like "if a crank is turned .060 under, it will most likely fail in short order". But if you were to say, "a crank turned .010/.010 will have no problems whatsoever achieving the original service life", then you'd be on your way to being somewhat correct.

I had intended to do at least a partial rebuild of whatever motor I use. I planned on taking apart the top end, at least. Is it then recommended I tear it down to the block, have it port/polished, new cam/crank/pistons?

Maybe a restatement/revision of my goals is in order, if for nothing else than to keep this from spiraling OT again...

My endstate HP is preferred around 220-270hp range. I would like this to be reliable enough to become my DD, though I don't know if that's a feasible goal in and of itself.
Over and over, both here and pm, a lot of people have been recommending the 3800sc swap. Although I was hesitant at first, given the commonality of this swap, I am reconsidering it.
Brakes will need to be redone, and probably upgraded, given the bump in hp.
And eventually I'd like to paint it. At a minimum, the sail section needs to be replaced, as it was just patched (several years ago) when tapped a guardrail. (Already have one pulled from my parts 87)
Interior/Audio etc is of secondary if not tertiary concern.

[This message has been edited by brotherhood_of_nod (edited 11-06-2012).]

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: I had intended to do at least a partial rebuild of whatever motor I use. I planned on taking apart the top end, at least. Is it then recommended I tear it down to the block, have it port/polished, new cam/crank/pistons? Maybe a restatement/revision of my goals is in order, if for nothing else than to keep this from spiraling OT again... My endstate HP is preferred around 220-270hp range. I would like this to be reliable enough to become my DD, though I don't know if that's a feasible goal in and of itself. Over and over, both here and pm, a lot of people have been recommending the 3800sc swap. Although I was hesitant at first, given the commonality of this swap, I am reconsidering it. Brakes will need to be redone, and probably upgraded, given the bump in hp. And eventually I'd like to paint it. At a minimum, the sail section needs to be replaced, as it was just patched (several years ago) when tapped a guardrail. (Already have one pulled from my parts 87) Interior/Audio etc is of secondary if not tertiary concern.

Your rebuild plans might be overkill for 220-270whp. What I would do is prep the basics for future power adders because you will most likely want to add just a little bit more after the first year. My daily driver started out with a 3.4" pulley and dyno'ed at 262whp. Then I upgraded to roller rockers, valve springs, N*, and a CAI. That generated 282whp. Then I added headers and a SSIC. That got 301whp. Then I added methanol injection, Spec stage 3+ clutch, and a new timing chain. That generated 329whp. I'm happy with that as a daily driver.

For an honest 270whp, all you need is 1.9 rocker arms, 105lb valve springs, a Northstar Throttle body and 3.4" pulley. I would advise to install headers because if you want to take things further, the headers are essentially your first mod to prevent KR.

If you want to work on a budget, a 3.4" mod alone will net you around 250whp.

Headers can also give you a great sound. We custom made these for sound over performance. We modded the inlet of the muffer and used unequal length headers with C6 tips to get this sound.

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www.hausofguru.com

I didn't know all that. My big concern is how much preventative maintenance to the engine and block is "enough" to ensure longevity of the motor?

I will definitely keep the pulley, rockers, headers etc in mind.