I'll look in to him too; the problem would be towing the Fiero across the midwest. That's why I'm looking in NEO. My overall goal is to have the 88 running by the time I get home from deployment.

You are probably better off just saving your money and then 1 month before your return put out feelers looking to buy an already swapped 88. There have been some screaming deals on already swapped cars that could be picked up for far less than it would cost to build them, especially if you are paying someone to do the work.

Yeah, I'm thinking about that too. Unfortunately, my sentimentality towards my first care is pretty strong. I'm definitely open to options; this is more an information gathering exercise for now. I will have a running Fiero one way or another. I'm keeping tabs on ebay and the store here.

quote Originally posted by brotherhood_of_nod: I've heard that going from auto to manual is not worth the effort; is that true?

Pfft, wut?! No! It was totally worth it.

As said before, fieroguru has a point. Another option, if the car means that much to you, buy a finished car and swap the cradles and goodies into your car. It will probably still be cheaper Han going from scratch.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: As said before, fieroguru has a point. Another option, if the car means that much to you, buy a finished car and swap the cradles and goodies into your car. It will probably still be cheaper Han going from scratch.

I'd never even thought of that.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: Yes, I dropped the ball on that swap. I dropped the ball by letting the customer design the swap, provide the parts, and control the build. We did the best we could until we just gave up out of frustration. This is what I was told to build with the exhaust by the "engineer". The cat is after the muffler which will never allow it to get to temperature to fire off, the o2 is too close to the turbo, and there is no way in hell all that tubing would fit....and I was instructed to not cut the trunk. I didn't disclose a lot of what went on with that build, but there was a lot more behind the scenes than either me or Alltrbo let on.

not trying to be a dick or take this thread OT, but I can't let this slide by unseen.





not even the same thread pitch... it's just plain sad, and I don't think that can be blamed on design or customer preference. If you don't like the customers ideas, refuse the job, it's that simple.

That's all I'm going to say, no more.

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: not trying to be a dick or take this thread OT, but I can't let this slide by unseen. not even the same thread pitch... it's just plain sad, and I don't think that can be blamed on design or customer preference. If you don't like the customers ideas, refuse the job, it's that simple. That's all I'm going to say, no more.

ouch

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

quote Originally posted by ericjon262: not trying to be a dick or take this thread OT, but I can't let this slide by unseen. not even the same thread pitch... it's just plain sad, and I don't think that can be blamed on design or customer preference. If you don't like the customers ideas, refuse the job, it's that simple. That's all I'm going to say, no more.

yup....and I fired my entire staff after seeing that. I know when we had initially put that together, the correct bolts were used. We did have to disassemble the swap at one point to fix some issues and my employees took care of that while I was in the process of diagnosing German cars. I also refunded Alltrbo some money, but he never mentioned that. I lost over $4000 out of my pocket building that car. Regardless I didn't really like the guys working for me and I didn't trust them, so they had to go. I am a complete dick to work for, but we have a less than 1% comeback rate on German cars and we haven't had a single comeback since the new staff has been hired. I have the best rep in the area for German cars.

That was then, I have a new staff that kicks ass and we really don't have the heart to continue doing swaps other than for ourselves. Maybe our opinion will change after taking some time off, but we all agreed that we are done with the pushrod dinosaurs. My head tech is doing a turbo Ecotec in his Fiero and I'm doing the Saab V6 turbo. If we continue swaps, it will be Ecotec based and probably the High Feature V6, but not 3800 based anymore.

Besides, everybody in this business has one car that bites them in the ass. If you keep hammering down on those builders, eventually you will have to build your own car because there won't be any more builders.

Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 11-02-2012).]

Not to further derail the thread, just wanted to throw in my $.02, and hopefully shed some light on this. My car was at Dave's when everything hit the fan with ALLTURBO. Dave had told me, on more than one occasion, how difficult that car was to deal with and the issues he had been having with the design and the owner's demands / expectations. He flat out said he would never do another swap like that.

When things went nuclear on the forum, I immediately asked him about it, as I had just had 2 bad experiences with shops and my car. I wanted to be sure I wasn't headed for the same result. Dave re-iterated his issues, and when the quality of the work came into a more clear focus, he was furious at the people he had working there and quickly informed me that he had let them go. He didn't say "Oh well, it's what he gets." He was genuinely upset about it, and wanted my and Charlie's cars to restore his reputation for the quality of his work, so much that he said he wouldn't let anyone work on them unsupervised.

I've never been to Dave's shop, and I'm not saying I know anything for sure, but I can say he doesn't work alone. I've received enough pictures of Ryan at his shop to know that one (I'm still scarred by at least one of the pics). Dave has done a TON of extra work on my car, and has discounted the project several times to make up for any delays or issues that have come up.

I believe it possible that ALLTURBO was a one time issue, but I am biased. Dean has BV's car, Archie has FierociousGT's car, and I believe you probably will find at least one person who has had something go wrong at each shop. When I've asked around about various shops, no one shop has ever come up without me being told well, they do have issues with this or that.

BOT.... OP find a car you like for sale and grab it. Take all the good and put it in your car. VOILA... best of both worlds. If it's a running car and not a project, then the labor to transfer everything over will probably be cheaper than having to build it. Or, leave the car as is, but transfer some of your stuff into it, so you have the "soul" of your car in it. Careful, this is an addiction, and you'll never be "done".

I'd recommend picking up a preswapped car for around 10grand, and dump your other 5 into making it look how you want.

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I believe it possible that ALLTURBO was a one time issue, but I am biased. Dean has BV's car, Archie has FierociousGT's car, and I believe you probably will find at least one person who has had something go wrong at each shop. When I've asked around about various shops, no one shop has ever come up without me being told well, they do have issues with this or that.

I could be wrong but yet again, the only one that stood up and took responsibility was BMWGuru. For that alone, he gets my respect. That is all the difference in the world.

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I could be wrong but yet again, the only one that stood up and took responsibility was BMWGuru. For that alone, he gets my respect. That is all the difference in the world.

I don't think MIDTRBO would be as forgiving, just as you're not with Dean. I do agree though, Dave flat out said there were issues and tried to own his mistakes. That does carry a lot of weight in my book too.

b_o_n - check out RULOOKIN's car. This is what you could get for the range you were looking in.....

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/061859.html

Here are a few more (not sure if they're still available)

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/063839.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/061929.html

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/059053.html

There are probably more. Good luck

quote Originally posted by mptighe: I don't think MIDTRBO would be as forgiving, just as you're not with Dean. I do agree though, Dave flat out said there were issues and tried to own his mistakes. That does carry a lot of weight in my book too.

Agreed. Oh, I side with the customer on this one. It shouldn't of happened, but did. I don't care for the popular mentality on PFF lately with the mobs attacking the customer while ignoring the facts. Thats not the PFF I have been a member of for nearly 12yrs. Do you know how many neg ratings I received in the last 3 months? More than the entire 12yrs I have been here combined. I know exactly how it feels when a build goes all pear-shaped. Then to have your every move questioned while the builder sets back and does nothing to fix it. BMWGuru owned it and tried to make it right. Big difference that what Dean @ Whodeanies Customs did with me. HUGE DIFFERENCE.

I guess the moral of the story is, if the OP has the ability to do the work himself, he should. The other suggestion to buy a complete car and then make it his own is another good option. Otherwise, choose your builder very carefully.

Let me be the first to say thank you for serving.

------------------
-Brian

My 87 GT Poly Suspension Upgrade (all pics) thread
Removing the roof panel
My HUD install thread

Thanks for replying, guys, even if it did get OT for a little bit. I am acutely aware of how much trust is needed when handing over a car to an unknown mechanic. Even when I ordered a custom sub enclosure for my Fiero from a reputable but unnamed shop, it took well over 6 months (closer to a year, I think). That's one of the reasons I asked specifically about the Northeast Ohio (NEO from now on because it's easier) area, because my dad is a parts manager for a dealership, and has enough contacts that I could at least get an outside opinion.

I am trepidatious about doing a build on my own, simply for the fact that I am not an experienced mechanic. I've seen a ton of build threads stretch on for years, and all for good reasons. I do have 30 days of leave coming off this deployment, but that's a tough schedule for someone who doesn't really know what they're doing.

I will keep my eyes out for cars for sale. I've already seen some stupid good sales... including a Formula for $3000.

On a side note to the op. My head tech is selling his complete 3800 swap from his 88. Basically the cradle drop out and install...a two day job. The motor has the xp hot cam, ported heads, cnc ported blower, ssic, 3.0 pulley, headers, N* TB, with 5 speed. He is asking $12,500 installed.
I told him he could use my shop for a weekend.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 11-03-2012).]

Obviously another candidate here

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/063935.html

And pm sent

[This message has been edited by mptighe (edited 11-03-2012).]

Geeze.....for $15k i could do a hellacious 3800 swap, take care of the body issues & do a brake conversion !!

Or you could just buy my car

------------------

MINNESOTA MAFIA Real men get blown If you're going to run your mouth make sure the proof isn't all over the net that you're full of sh!t.
87 GT MP-112 powered, 3800 Supercharged on 19's 372 rwhp & tuning____88 GT T-top 1 of very few, 000,204.1 miles
87 GT custom______90 Grand prix STE Turbo_____2007GSXR 1000
Nitrous is like a hot chick with an STD, Ya want to hit it, but are afraid of the consequences.
IF YOU AIN'T BREAKING STUFF..................IT AIN'T MODDED ENOUGH
If your'e not living on the edge..........you're taking up too much room.
Best Fiero mounts available

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: On a side note to the op. My head tech is selling his complete 3800 swap from his 88. Basically the cradle drop out and install...a two day job. The motor has the xp hot cam, ported heads, cnc ported blower, ssic, 3.0 pulley, headers, N* TB, with 5 speed. He is asking $12,500 installed. I told him he could use my shop for a weekend. Dave

That is expensive for a dinosoar pushrod engine.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: That is expensive for a dinosoar pushrod engine.

no kidding.

------------------
there's a Group on 60degreeV6.com for us 660 Fiero owners!

Fiero Owner's group on 60degreeV6.com

I know these lines Look crooked on paper, but I swear I've got them straight in my head.

Considering the average price of 10k for a basic 3800 swap.. I don't think its too far out of line. YMMV

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: Considering the average price of 10k for a basic 3800 swap.. I don't think its too far out of line. YMMV

Average? Maybe 10 years ago. A shop should make plenty at half that much.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

I don't have 1/3 of that in my 3500 swap... that's for both motors, the transmission, the turbo, the A2W intercooler setup, and the car. maybe I'm just cheap, but I feel like that's alot of money when you can get an L32 with less than 100K on the clock for approx $1000. hell, there's a dropout engine and trans with 99K on the clock for $2200...

http://www.car-part.com/cgi...erPart=Engine&sessio nID=600000000000000000091639308&userPreference=price&userZip=32504&userLat=30.4842&userLong=-87.1905&userIntSelect=546623&userUID=0&userBroker=&iKey=&userPage=1

I guess if it's a built shortblock (crank rods and pistons) then it's not too out of line.

I did some thinking. I'll let my setup go for $11,499 installed. Complete Series 3 3800, real power adder, real 5 speed, making real power all on an 88 cradle.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: Average? Maybe 10 years ago. A shop should make plenty at half that much.

Call around to the shops and ask what the going rate is. We aren't talking DIY here.

I can't see paying that much for a swap, but I'm also cheap, and I enjoy making the parts myself. maybe one day when I'm rich, I'll get paid to do fun swaps all the time.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: That is expensive for a dinosoar pushrod engine.

We have sold similair setups for over $15,000 installed, but if it is too expensive, then don't buy it.
the parts alone are upwards of $10,000
Dave

The offer above is legit if anyone wants to PM me.

I have $20,000 in parts alone.

------------------
Turbo 3800 E85 F23 5spd spec5
11.17@132.6

Well at least you accepted fault and try to do the right thing (you maned up). Wish archie would have come forward to make things right but his ego is too big (or was). Hammering down if they don't go the extra mile to make it right. You get my respect cause you went the extra mile.

And personally not that I don't like archie but I just think he is an a$$hole.

quote Originally posted by bmwguru: yup....and I fired my entire staff after seeing that. I know when we had initially put that together, the correct bolts were used. We did have to disassemble the swap at one point to fix some issues and my employees took care of that while I was in the process of diagnosing German cars. I also refunded Alltrbo some money, but he never mentioned that. I lost over $4000 out of my pocket building that car. Regardless I didn't really like the guys working for me and I didn't trust them, so they had to go. I am a complete dick to work for, but we have a less than 1% comeback rate on German cars and we haven't had a single comeback since the new staff has been hired. I have the best rep in the area for German cars. That was then, I have a new staff that kicks ass and we really don't have the heart to continue doing swaps other than for ourselves. Maybe our opinion will change after taking some time off, but we all agreed that we are done with the pushrod dinosaurs. My head tech is doing a turbo Ecotec in his Fiero and I'm doing the Saab V6 turbo. If we continue swaps, it will be Ecotec based and probably the High Feature V6, but not 3800 based anymore. Besides, everybody in this business has one car that bites them in the ass. If you keep hammering down on those builders, eventually you will have to build your own car because there won't be any more builders. Dave

quote Originally posted by mptighe: Not to further derail the thread, just wanted to throw in my $.02, and hopefully shed some light on this. My car was at Dave's when everything hit the fan with ALLTURBO. Dave had told me, on more than one occasion, how difficult that car was to deal with and the issues he had been having with the design and the owner's demands / expectations. He flat out said he would never do another swap like that. When things went nuclear on the forum, I immediately asked him about it, as I had just had 2 bad experiences with shops and my car. I wanted to be sure I wasn't headed for the same result. Dave re-iterated his issues, and when the quality of the work came into a more clear focus, he was furious at the people he had working there and quickly informed me that he had let them go. He didn't say "Oh well, it's what he gets." He was genuinely upset about it, and wanted my and Charlie's cars to restore his reputation for the quality of his work, so much that he said he wouldn't let anyone work on them unsupervised. I've never been to Dave's shop, and I'm not saying I know anything for sure, but I can say he doesn't work alone. I've received enough pictures of Ryan at his shop to know that one (I'm still scarred by at least one of the pics). Dave has done a TON of extra work on my car, and has discounted the project several times to make up for any delays or issues that have come up. I believe it possible that ALLTURBO was a one time issue, but I am biased. Dean has BV's car, Archie has FierociousGT's car, and I believe you probably will find at least one person who has had something go wrong at each shop. When I've asked around about various shops, no one shop has ever come up without me being told well, they do have issues with this or that. BOT.... OP find a car you like for sale and grab it. Take all the good and put it in your car. VOILA... best of both worlds. If it's a running car and not a project, then the labor to transfer everything over will probably be cheaper than having to build it. Or, leave the car as is, but transfer some of your stuff into it, so you have the "soul" of your car in it. Careful, this is an addiction, and you'll never be "done".

quote Originally posted by BV MotorSports: I could be wrong but yet again, the only one that stood up and took responsibility was BMWGuru. For that alone, he gets my respect. That is all the difference in the world.

------------------
'88 GT, 3800 SC II, IMSA/MadCurls widebody combo, Choptop, Borla exhaust, GT-One NSX Headlights, RX-8 mirrors.
FGTO Build thread ~> Link

[This message has been edited by FierociousGT (edited 11-04-2012).]

Well for the kind of money being thrown about in this thread I would go buy a complete running swap as there are many on here for half of those numbers or less. Not that I don't think some of it is worth it but it better have some expensive go fast goodies for that.

I really appreciate all the information that everybody is putting up. I may end up towing the Fiero to KC and doing the work from there. I don't know. I'd like to do the build myself but I really don't have a lot of experience. I'm going to keep my ear to the ground for the next couple months and see if there's a swapped 88 in the area I can buy, or in the next few months start buying parts for my on swap.

Speaking of, who has the better 3.8 kit? I've looked at both the WCF and FOYR kits, but haven't dug into the forums to get opinions yet.

------------------
Happiness is not around the corner. It is the corner.

An onramp is a terrible thing to waste.

"The greatest risk is not taking one" -AIG Commercial

I would buy the mounts from anyone except WCF. I used to do business with them frequently, but I wound up having to contact my bank to get my money back for a large purchase from them. They have a very bad reputation for delivery issues.

Here is the link for more info.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/089925.html

Dave

Yeah....that's the shop I mentioned earlier where I waited forever for my sub enclosure. I don't like talking bad about anybody, but the overall quality was not what I was expecting. Upholstery was well done, though.

quote Originally posted by Justinbart: The offer above is legit if anyone wants to PM me. I have $20,000 in parts alone.

Ummm, not to start a flame war, but with how much crap you and DH talk on ANYONE who tries to do a higher end build, and how you make more power at a fraction of the cost, I just don't buy it. Maybe you've spent $20k total, but $20k in parts in just your swap right now? This totally goes against everything you guys have been claiming.

I'm surprised no one mentioned http://gmtuners.com/

His name is Ryan and goes by Darth Fiero on here.

------------------
SSFiero@Aol.com 87 Gt-5spd-62k miles.

I would say it is quite obviously a joke as we have significantly more power and "parts" then this fabled $10000 3800... double the power usually means double the cost so conservatively guess at 20k seems accurate.

quote Originally posted by KissMySSFiero: I'm surprised no one mentioned http://gmtuners.com/ His name is Ryan and goes by Darth Fiero on here.

I mentioned him, he has a 1 - 2 year wait on swaps usually.