quote Originally posted by The Fieromaster: ***what worries ME about that is if your driving say at 4,000 rpm in 3rd and let off gas and the rpm drops to IDLE then you stomp the gas to say... catch another car The rpm will RACE to 4,000 where it catches up with the tranny speed and WHAMMO!!!! Like a bomb went off in your trans. Correct me if im wrong but is that what happens?

The torque convertor will cushion that if the TCC is unlocked.

paddles and buttons, paddles hard shift (feel cool)

buttons soft shift (normal driving) only two more inputs if you have any left on your microcontroller or whatever chip your using.

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quote Originally posted by p8ntman442: paddles and buttons, paddles hard shift (feel cool) buttons soft shift (normal driving) only two more inputs if you have any left on your microcontroller or whatever chip your using.

Well if you wanted, you could hook the throttle position input on the TCM to a switch, and then flip the switch to "standard" for everyday driving, and "performance" for tire-screeching driving... I think corvettes have an option like that.. or maybe I'm thinking suspension.

The only way to achieve engine braking with an auto is to shift down into manual 1 or 2. This will apply a clutch or drum and effectivly lockout the overrunning clutch. It is this way with auto's now, so what is the big deal if you have to do it with the controller? If you want engine braking you have to downshift with the shifter. Or you can put switches in your shifter and shift the transmission manually that way.

I think this control box is a good idea, and would allow more creative use of newer transmissions. The 60E and 65E are tough transmissions and being able to use them with V8 or 3800 applications without the use of the 95 PCM would be an advantage.

I would be willing to do some testing of this unit but the car will not be running till early May. I am deffinately interested in purchasing one for that time though, as I would like to eliminate the 95 PCM from my car which is only running the transmission.

The 60E does use PWM for the TCC at 32Hz, 100% duty cycle is minimal/no apply, 0% is full apply. It also uses a on/off solonoid for the TCC as well. You could just switch the on/off solonoid and get full apply but I am not sure how the TCC will respond to that. Older Torque Convertor clutches were applied this way so it may be ok.

The 65E also uses PWM for the TCC, but eliminates the on/off solonoid.

I will talk to my tranny guy about the TCC problem and see what he thinks.

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 04-07-2005).]

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: The 60E does use PWM for the TCC at 32Hz, 100% duty cycle is minimal/no apply, 0% is full apply. It also uses a on/off solonoid for the TCC as well. You could just switch the on/off solonoid and get full apply but I am not sure how the TCC will respond to that. Older Torque Convertor clutches were applied this way so it may be ok. The 65E also uses PWM for the TCC, but eliminates the on/off solonoid.

Darth says that some of the 65e's need the TCC applied over the course of 3-8 seconds, due to their high friction clutch material. Otherwise it's like clutch-dumping a manual, and things break. My 80e has no problem being switched on/off, even though it does have the PWM solenoid. We think it might be because of a really soft clutch material (it's from a caddy afterall).

I don't recall what he said about the 60e's... the ones with the pwm may be okay to be switched on/off. Obviously the ones without the pwm solenoid will be just fine.

edit - haha! Good news! I guess I can switch two pin assignments around, and have the TCC be a PWM output! So, that covers the 4t65e...... now..... I still need to figure out something for the PWM 4t60e's, since they have an additional solenoid, and I don't have any more outputs

unless... their friction material is soft too, and I can treat it just like an on/off switch.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-07-2005).]

I know my 95 pcm would apply the clutch fairly quickly. Less than 1 second I would say. But I'm not sure of the effects of applying faster than the factory designed or full apply as I believe it never fully applies (0% duty cycle).

If you need any wiring diagrams or technical info let me know. I have access to shopkey and other sources of info. PM with anything you need.

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 04-07-2005).]

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: I just went and talked to my tranny guy. It sounds like it won't be a problem to just turn on the TCC on the 4T60E. The TCC material from 90 to 95 is the same. And only the 94 up transmissions had the PWM TCC. On 96 up the TCC uses Woven Carbon, the apply might be somewhat harsh, but really the TCC should only be applied under light throttle so it should still be fairly mild. I personally am using a sunfire (4T40) convertor in my tranny, it is designed for full apply anyway, I am willing to test the unit with just on/off TCC. Another thought, If you are controlling the line pressure solonoid, 2 shift solonoids, and TCC solonoid on the 4T65E, that is 4 solonoids. The 4T60E only has 4 as well, so you should be able to control them all. 2 Shift solonoids, 1 TCC apply, 1 TCC PWM. Am I missing something here?

Bah! You're RIGHT! I completely forgot about the 60e not having the pressure solenoid! Well then, no problems! Everything's been taken care of then, except how long to go from 0-100% TCC on the ones with PWM. I think I'll just have to experiment with that on a 65e, but 3 seconds should work well on the 65e and 60e. (for the carbon clutch material.... others probably don't have to worry about it)

On the 60E you need to go from 100% down to 0%.

Quote from service manual:

"The PCM controls the pwm soenoid by varying its operating duty cycle from 0% to 100%. Until the transaxle is operating in 3rd gear the pwm solenoid is off. In this state PWM feed pressure flows at max pressure through the solenoid and into the PWM circuit.
When the solenoid is energized, it operates at 32 hz and from 0% to 100% duty cycle depending on vehicle operation. The PWM soleniod is enabled to modulate the amount of pwm feed pressure passing though the solenoid sending it to the convertor clutch regulator valve. At 0% duty cycle the TCC will apply at maximum capicty while 100% duty cycle applies it at minimum capacity."

I believe the 65E works the opposite as it only has one Solenoid for the TCC. It is off and then ramps up to 100% dutycycle for TCC apply.

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: On the 60E you need to go from 100% down to 0%. Quote from service manual: "The PCM controls the pwm soenoid by varying its operating duty cycle from 0% to 100%. Until the transaxle is operating in 3rd gear the pwm solenoid is off. In this state PWM feed pressure flows at max pressure through the solenoid and into the PWM circuit. When the solenoid is energized, it operates at 32 hz and from 0% to 100% duty cycle depending on vehicle operation. The PWM soleniod is enabled to modulate the amount of pwm feed pressure passing though the solenoid sending it to the convertor clutch regulator valve. At 0% duty cycle the TCC will apply at maximum capicty while 100% duty cycle applies it at minimum capacity." I believe the 65E works the opposite as it only has one Solenoid for the TCC. It is off and then ramps up to 100% dutycycle for TCC apply.

Thanks for correcting me, yes, the 65 and 80e go from 0-100% DC to apply the TCC. The 60e works in the opposite way, similar to the pressure solenoid on the other two.

Ryan... about the engine braking... Took the BMW out and drove it... at 65 MPH it is in 4th gear at 2000 rpm appx. when i let off the gas the car does have engine braking... equivelent of the same manual in that gear. The engine RPM also does not drop to idle rather stays at 2000 right after throttle is released then drops as the vehical speed drops. Im not sure WHY your system would let the engine rpm drop to zero unless for some reason its telling the tranny its about to shift ALL THE TIME so that the tranny lets the engine coast to make gear changes softer and less violent??? I dont know anything about trannies but like i said id take a look at those diagrams and show them to my G/Fs dad who is a machine engineer and a friggin genious!

Later!

The system has nothing to do with the engine braking or lack there of. GM autos are set up to coast when in D4 or D3. If you manually downshift then you will get engine braking. I don't think that the engine rpm will go to idle, except mabey in fourth gear. The engine speed will drop until the torque convertor will start essencially working in reverse, with the transmission holding the engine speed up. As the car slows the engine speed will also drop. If you electronically downshifted to say 2nd at 60MPH, then the engine speed should not be idle, but you will not get hard engine braking like you would with a manual transmission. This is for driver comfort, as most average people don't want engine braking while sunday driving.

I was just looking up info on BMW's SMG system, as I would prefer the manual 5spd, with its ratio's, and I came accross an interesting article which states the SMG and F1 cars use Hall effect sensors, which from my limited Physics knowledge may be better than any regular switches. I am still an amateur, but it would be nice if I could study up and get a semi-manual system to work with the 5Spd's, it would take a hell lot more programming though.

Hall effect sensors are speed sensors. The VSS on newer transmissions is a hall effect sensor. As are the crank and cam sensors used on most all GM motors.

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: Hall effect sensors are speed sensors. The VSS on newer transmissions is a hall effect sensor. As are the crank and cam sensors used on most all GM motors.

Yes but most manufacturers of paddle shifts use them for their paddle sensors, bypassing the need for contact sensors, In theory the nature of how a hallsensor works one can use them as a simple detector for a paddle.

quote quote Originally posted by LFiero67: Hall effect sensors are speed sensors. The VSS on newer transmissions is a hall effect sensor. As are the crank and cam sensors used on most all GM motors. Yes but most manufacturers of paddle shifts use them for their paddle sensors, bypassing the need for contact sensors, In theory the nature of how a hallsensor works one can use them as a simple detector for a paddle.

A hall-effect can be used in many applications. It only needs a magnetic field (or lack of one) to trigger.

[This message has been edited by RCR (edited 04-08-2005).]

quote Originally posted by LFiero67: The system has nothing to do with the engine braking or lack there of. GM autos are set up to coast when in D4 or D3. If you manually downshift then you will get engine braking. I don't think that the engine rpm will go to idle, except mabey in fourth gear. The engine speed will drop until the torque convertor will start essencially working in reverse, with the transmission holding the engine speed up. As the car slows the engine speed will also drop. If you electronically downshifted to say 2nd at 60MPH, then the engine speed should not be idle, but you will not get hard engine braking like you would with a manual transmission. This is for driver comfort, as most average people don't want engine braking while sunday driving.

WOOHOO thank you!!!!! This is the answer to what i have been wondering!!! I dont want the engine to go to idle... the slight drag of the TC working backwards is fine for me. Thats basically what i wanted to know... Are you sure of this though? Should it do this with his system installed too?

SileverPhoenix = Yea the BMW system is pretty cool. I have a Manual and Auto program button... You can still manually shift the car in AUTO mode.... but in Manual if you want you can bounce the car off the rev limiter in whatever gear its in... it WONT upshif automatically at all... lol!

quote Originally posted by The Fieromaster: WOOHOO thank you!!!!! This is the answer to what i have been wondering!!! I dont want the engine to go to idle... the slight drag of the TC working backwards is fine for me. Thats basically what i wanted to know... Are you sure of this though? Should it do this with his system installed too?

I've been thinking about this, and it may drop. The overrunning clutch will not allow the road speed to transfer back to the Torque convertor. What we need is someone with an old (70s-early80s) GM truck or car with a TH350 transmission to unplug the vacuum modulator and take the vehicle for a drive. Preferably with a Tach in the vehicle. Accelerate to about 4000 rpm, it will stay in first gear and then let off the gas. See if it drops to idle or if engine speed stays up.

However if the engine speed does drop to idle, hammering on the gas will be no worse than if you went to WOT with the factory system and getting a downshift. Either way, the engine revs from whatever rpm it is at, to whatever rpm the Torque convertor grabs at in the lower gear. The bonus will be the ability to drop the gear, then get on the gas, rather than going Wide Open Throttle, and waiting for the downshift before the car accelerates. Also you can downshift, use part throttle to bring the rpm up to a higher level and then go WOT.

On the hall effect sensors, that would work. I have never seen one used in that way, but it definately is doable.

[This message has been edited by LFiero67 (edited 04-08-2005).]

Completely shooting from the hip, here...

Can the overrun clutch be eliminated... say replaced with a solid coupling...?

The overrunning clutches have to be there. They hold in one or two gears and overrun in others.

Eg 4T60E
3 overrunning clutches
Input sprag - holds in 1st and overruns in second
1-2 roller - holds in 1st and 2nd and overruns in third
3rd roller - holds in 3rd and over runs in fourth

I was going to talk to a transmission builder about this, but I'll throw it up here first:

Is there any way to mechanically fix the overrun clutches and/or related mechanisms of the transmission so that engine braking is forced on any downshift, whether it's initiated by the shifter or the paddles?

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

That's basically what I was asking.

What about a modified valve body to work in conjunction with Ryan's transmission controller to give engine braking when the solenoids command lower gears even if the selector lever is in D.

quote Originally posted by Will: That's basically what I was asking. What about a modified valve body to work in conjunction with Ryan's transmission controller to give engine braking when the solenoids command lower gears even if the selector lever is in D.

That's what I wanted to do, at least for the 4t80e, it looks like you can just reroute line pressure to the "coast clutch", and have it on all the time... From what I can see, it is only on when the manual gear selected = the electronic gear selected. But Darth Fiero advised against it, saying something to the effect of "gear grindage" Actually I don't remember what he said, but that it was a bad idea. I don't see why though.

Seems like there should be a way.

One more thing on my wish list:

I'm gonna see if they can do a reverse pattern valve body so that first gear is the next step from neutral.

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Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

just a suggestion but to figure out alot of bugs you guys can go and take a look at Aston's system in their DB9.

Isn't that a Magnetti Marelli automated manual, like Ferraris and Maseratis have?

quote Originally posted by Will: Isn't that a Magnetti Marelli automated manual, like Ferraris and Maseratis have?

Nope Ferrari's have a true manual paddle shift, with solenoids doing the clutchwork, the Aston has a real auto with a Tq converter.

I guess I was thinking of the Vanquish.
Porsche's tiptronic is also an auto...

is your kit ready for the 4t65e-hd my tranny shop is waiting to finalise the build of the trans.
marc the stroker

quote Originally posted by stroker54: is your kit ready for the 4t65e-hd my tranny shop is waiting to finalise the build of the trans. marc the stroker

Yes and no... I haven't received the wire I ordered for the display yet. Should be here in a few days though, otherwise it's ready.

edit: I just wanted to mention that fierox hasn't started building paddle assemblies yet - I just sent him the paddles monday, those should reach him tomorrow. In other words, there's still a few minor details...

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-12-2005).]

I'm a regular nascar sim racer who races the (nascar racing 2003 season)game and we can have paddle shifters that could possibly be adapted to our cars.
check it out under : thomas-superwheel.com, once on the site clic on option # 2 and then universal in the middle of the screen.
they have 2 different shifters

Hey Ryan,
I have a 4.9 with a 4T60-E and if you still needed a transmission to play with I could loan you my car. Let me know; my AIM is sk8rex.

So this wont work with a stock fiero auto tranny?

nah it does not ,this kit works with the tranny's that are electric shift's the stock fiero is vacuum related of some sort
by the way anyone know's some suppliers that sell's the harness plug to connect to a 4t65e-hd and the position of the pins

If you know the part number of the connector, this site is good for all Delphi/Packard connectors and terminals.
http://www.powerandsignal.com/

I also was trying to put together paddle shifters for my 4t65e 4.9 swap this is what I came up with.

level ten electronics or one of the 4 or 5 others

http://www.levelten.com/store/gm/items/electronics/gm_shiftronic.htm

I also considered http://www.powertraincontrolsolutions.com/content-4.html

but it's a little too high for my budget

The paddles I was going to butcher from a video game, thats right switches and all
The Logitech momo force wheel with metal shifters so far looks good. attached to column not wheel

so, what exactly is the status of this product?
When will it be avalible
What are the features (will i be able to switch between clutchless manual and full automatic?)
etc.
understandably i dont wanna read through 5 pages of posts, i should be working

quote Originally posted by buddymem: so, what exactly is the status of this product? When will it be avalible What are the features (will i be able to switch between clutchless manual and full automatic?) etc. understandably i dont wanna read through 5 pages of posts, i should be working

Sorry, it's been delayed for a bit... (Didn't my instructors say to multiply the expected development time by 4? ) Well at any rate, I've been really busy as of late, and FieroX has too, and is still working on getting the paddles done. If you want a TCM within the week, send me an email. I can make time as the situation warrants, but can't spare too much time... So in other words, I can produce a couple TCMs, but that's about it until I have more time and money (couple weeks).

Right now it only is available in 'manual' form.