So if I want to park the car or go into reverse, what do I have to do with your system?? Will it automatically allow this to happen? And if I want go forward do I put it in first or drive?

quote Originally posted by Manic Mechanic: So if I want to park the car or go into reverse, what do I have to do with your system?? Will it automatically allow this to happen? And if I want go forward do I put it in first or drive?

I think this answers it:

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Good question. Sorry I forgot to mention this before! Unfortunately, the way the auto transmissions are set up, to get into neutral and reverse, certain fluid circuits have to be turned "on", and that can only happen if you move the shifter. I haven't found any way around that, and I'd guess you'd have to drill some ugly holes in the tranny and install new solenoids at the least... So, short answer, yes, you would have to keep the shifter

Yes, you have to put it into drive or reverse with the regular shifter.

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My Web page | The Turbo Super Duty Build.

DONT ANYBODY TELL MY WIFE ABOUT THESE!!!

or i WILL have to switch back to an automatic!
your kit is great! dont change a thing, it all works the best way possible. i would use it in an instant, but dont want to backtrack over previous progress.

Ryan Hess,

PM me your aol screen name or phone number. I would love to talk to you more about this. Its time for some wickedness

Hi all,

Out of curiousity let's say that the new caddy 6-speed auto found its way into a fiero, could your set up of paddle shifting be a drop in procedure??....Control the tranny just as a 4-speed, or would it need modification???

I'm going to continue to watch this one closely. Nice going Ryan....I'm actually very interested in how you are controlling things, and what your controller is based upon.

Bob (an electronic project engineer)

anyone using the memcal ECM for OBD1 can turn off the 4T60-E and all the codes that may want to pop up from controlling lockup yourself. I haven't done this obviously but it wouldn't be very hard at all. I am not sure telling the computer you are running a 5 speed though is going to be in your best interest. I know the throttle follower changes for 5 speed use but the rest I am unsure of since I haven't really looked at the codes. Im just basing this on the 3.4 DOHC with 4T60-E and 3.1 with 4T60-E.

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Ben
www.60degreev6.com

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: humbug - you can run it off a power stearing pump I believe. personally I preffer pneumatics but can't think of an easy airpump off the top of my head.. perhaps a compact electric one like they use for airbag systems.

there is more than one way to skin a cat sure
I was thinking el-trick two three position relay selinoids [sp]
one replaces the select cable right -center -left slots
and the other front-center -rear for the shift
c+c gives netral
left + front or rear gives 1 and 2
c+front or rear , 3 and 4
Right + front or rear give 5 and reverce [some kind of reverce lock out needed to]

wireing and somekind of switch or controler needed to make it work

you could use an air or hyd 3 position unit but control would be harder then wires
and slower and use power from the motor while I use the battery
and may cost more too
but a lot of thinking needed as it needs to work perfectly every time

and I have no current plans to work on it as I have too many projects NOW

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Question wonder and be wierd
are you kind?

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 02-16-2005).]

Are you getting my PMs fieroX? I've sent you two...

i would be interested if there were a way to do it as a ratchet shifter. the paddles would just be a little annoying...

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car destroyed by charley, then again by francis
seeking notchback for 4.9/4t60 swap!

quote Originally posted by malacite: i would be interested if there were a way to do it as a ratchet shifter. the paddles would just be a little annoying...

If that means being able to shift using the stock shifter cable, and some aftermarket shifter, then that might be a possibility. I'm trying to work out using both the paddles and the shifter......

quote Originally posted by malacite: i would be interested if there were a way to do it as a ratchet shifter. the paddles would just be a little annoying...

Seems to me that once you have the means to control it, how you control it is up to you. The paddles are only the switches. You could set up a shifter that when hit forward would upshift, and when pulled back would downshift. It's kind of like choosing the type of light switch you want to use to control your light.

But I guess I could be way off.

quote Originally posted by slickrick2000: Seems to me that once you have the means to control it, how you control it is up to you. The paddles are only the switches. You could set up a shifter that when hit forward would upshift, and when pulled back would downshift. It's kind of like choosing the type of light switch you want to use to control your light. But I guess I could be way off.

no think you're right.
but too be safe you'd need something like the tiptronic VW shifter.
in drive the whole assembly slides to the side into a smaller trac that you shift in, this prevents you from knocking the shifter into, i dunno, reverse while racing

here's a crappy 3-D pic.

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car destroyed by charley, then again by francis
seeking notchback for 4.9/4t60 swap!

Keep in mind that you still have a cable attachment to the tranny. You'd need to move to the side to either disengage that, or prevent from shifting to different positions.
Bob

quote Originally posted by malacite: no think you're right. but too be safe you'd need something like the tiptronic VW shifter. in drive the whole assembly slides to the side into a smaller trac that you shift in, this prevents you from knocking the shifter into, i dunno, reverse while racing here's a crappy 3-D pic.

(can't go into reverse without pushing the button)
using a stock fiero shifter assembly it would actually be a lot easier to cut the lockout notch a little deeper in Drive to lock out from going into neutral.. you could then make a custom shift knob that has a little movement in it (when the button is not depressed) about 1/16-1/8" forward and backward with micoswitches each direction to shift up and down.. would be pretty easy to make.

Hi all,

Can you show us a pic of where you plan on mounting the shifters????? The steering column is a little short on room, and itz got me worried actually......lol....

Hi all,

El bumpo to the topo.....

quote Originally posted by pavo_roddy: Can you show us a pic of where you plan on mounting the shifters????? The steering column is a little short on room, and itz got me worried actually......lol....

Sorry, haven't had a chance to work on this..... Basically it would mount underneath the steering column, directly behind the steering wheel to the cover (unless something changes):

You will lose about 1/2" of clearance between the bottom of the column, and say, your knees, But, I don't think there's a way around that. Again, this is a completely new work in progress....... If you have any ideas on how to make it better, I'm all ears

Hi all,

It won't look symetrical but how bout a small paddle coming of the trun signal stalk encloser and a larger one on the right hand side....It would look good to me....Yeah this' gotta be the mod of the century!! dun da dun da da... A mod where space is the smallest in abundance.....

edit: Do what you can, when you can!! Can't ask for more.... And OPPS!!! Yeah, getting your brights to turn on would get in the way....I am sure what your thinking is best, I mean you've thought of this longer than anyone else has......

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 02-25-2005).]

goodby standard hi ho automatics. I blew up my 125 shifting manually, but im sure the 4t60e will work fine.

quote Originally posted by pavo_roddy: Yeah, getting your brights to turn on would get in the way....I am sure what your thinking is best, I mean you've thought of this longer than anyone else has......

Yeah, if mounting it on bottom doesn't work, it might make more sense to mount it on top of the column, and have the paddles at like a 10 and 2 position, vs 9 and 3...... The only problem I can forsee is line of sight to the speedo and tach..... well..... and then you have this ugly box sitting there...

So many problems.

Hows this going?

I would be extremely intrested especially if after design and build costs don't drive trhe price up much.

I would rather have the paddle located somewhere near the stock auto shifter--but that's just me.
Also, I am using Ed's harness and Rockcrawl chip so I don't know what that would do?

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Proud Member of the DOWN SOUTH SUNNY WINTER drive your Fiero Naked Coalition.

85 4.9SE 4T60E Parks harness/ Rockcrawl chip-- No I do not want to race!

Going good... progress is slow, but it's there I just picked up a 65e manual, so I can see how they work... (Already have the 60e and 80e design down)

quote Originally posted by jeffndebrus: I would be extremely intrested especially if after design and build costs don't drive trhe price up much. I would rather have the paddle located somewhere near the stock auto shifter--but that's just me. Also, I am using Ed's harness and Rockcrawl chip so I don't know what that would do?

Thanks for the input. The price is 99.9% firm. The only real "fudge factor" left are the paddles... Like I said, you don't have to go with my paddle design Save you some money at least... Right now fieroX is looking over the assembly I sent him. (At least I think... It would be nice to have updates Ryan! Let me know that you've at least received it! )

You'll have to ask Rockcrawl if his chip will work with the tranny unplugged from the ECM... My guess is he'll have to make it a "manual chip".

mount it on top and add a single digit digital display showing which gear you are in

quote Originally posted by p8ntman442: goodby standard hi ho automatics. I blew up my 125 shifting manually, but im sure the 4t60e will work fine.

i do that all the time, and have yet to blow up a 125.

Just an update: I'll be off all next week, and will be devoting that time to finishing the 60/65/80e TCM prototype. Maybe I'll even throw in some "action" shots Please be patient, and stay tuned.

Ive also got an update. Today I located and purchased 2 microswitches that are much smaller than the ones in the prototype Ryan Hess sent me. This will help to make the paddle control box smaller, and allow more room inside for the return springs etc. The first couple will probably be made from tig welded aluminum, either painted or covered in vinyl. If they work good and sales are good, I can see the possiblility of making them from billet aluminum in the future.

Ryan, I dont see you online much. Message me when you get a chance.

This sounds like a project me and a friend are doing exept ours is for the stick shift

when the paddle is 1/2 way raised it disengages the clutch then at full raise it changes the gear and once its droped past1/2 down reengages the clutch

i am so ready to buy one of these! email me as soon as they are ready. i would say pm me, but with the demise of PFF emmenent email would be better.

tednelson83@aol.com

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1987 Pontiac Fiero GT, 141,500 miles! decklid window, silver guages.
More pics of my 87 GT can be found here

A 4 year olds knowledge of science: No matter how much jello you put into a swimming pool you still can't walk on water.

Re: paddle position... I think that's all dependent on steering ratio and driving technique. A driver who's always 9 & 3 would like the paddles to move with the wheel. A driver who hand-over-hand's it would like them stationary. I don't see how anyone can drive a Fiero without using a hand-over-hand technique so mounting them to the column I probably best with a stock rack. Someone with an extra quick modified rack would probably want them to turn with the wheel.

Re: TCC behaviour... I think you should make the TCC parameters more adjustable. I know that I would prefer very aggressive TCC behaviour--especially in overrun--to make the transmission act more like a manual, but factory TCC's don't tolerate a whole lot of that. For use with convertors with very strong aftermarket TCC's, you might consider making TCC behaviour user definable.

Re: Automanual... hydraulics to operate the clutch, dual winding stepper motor to rotate the shift shaft at the transmission, dual winding solenoid to move it axially.

Re: line pressure control... What about keying line pressure to the amount of time the paddle is pulled? Pull the paddle for less than half a second and it uses max line pressure... Two seconds is a granny shift, and the computer interpolates between these values. It would have to also keep an eye on throttle position so as not to burn up the transmission, but controlling line pressure from the paddles would allow a driver to slam a part throttle upshift in mid-corner just like driving a manual.

Re: 4T60E line pressure control... Darth Fiero removed the check valve from his vacuum modulator so that the modulator sees boost pressure and adjusts line pressure accordingly. I assume you've also done this, X?

quote Originally posted by Will: Re: TCC behaviour... I think you should make the TCC parameters more adjustable. I know that I would prefer very aggressive TCC behaviour--especially in overrun--to make the transmission act more like a manual, but factory TCC's don't tolerate a whole lot of that. For use with convertors with very strong aftermarket TCC's, you might consider making TCC behaviour user definable.

How so? Do you mean being able to engage it in 3rd and 4th? I'm open to ideas...

quote Re: line pressure control... What about keying line pressure to the amount of time the paddle is pulled? Pull the paddle for less than half a second and it uses max line pressure... Two seconds is a granny shift, and the computer interpolates between these values. It would have to also keep an eye on throttle position so as not to burn up the transmission, but controlling line pressure from the paddles would allow a driver to slam a part throttle upshift in mid-corner just like driving a manual.

Yeah, you mentioned this before... Right now I am already timing the paddle actuation time to keep from shifting 2 gears in one pull, or to keep you from shifting from 4th to 1st in a half second... wouldn't take much more work to add this feature in. I'll keep it as-is for now, but maybe have that as an order option?

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Yeah, you mentioned this before... Right now I am already timing the paddle actuation time to keep from shifting 2 gears in one pull, or to keep you from shifting from 4th to 1st in a half second... wouldn't take much more work to add this feature in. I'll keep it as-is for now, but maybe have that as an order option?

What processor are you using? I would have figured that you'd use edge triggered logic on an interrupt combined with hardware or software debouncing to avoid multiple shifts per pull...

Regarding the TCC design... I'd think the best way to do that would be torque based, but that would increase the complexity of the system by adding a MAP sensor... I'd say locked all the time except at a stop or above a certain throttle percentage. That throttle percentage could also be gear dependent.
GM logic unlocks the convertor in overrun so that the DFCO is less perceptible (at least that's why I think they do it). I think that you should keep the convertor locked in overrun so that the transmission acts more like a manual.

quote Originally posted by Will: I think that you should keep the convertor locked in overrun so that the transmission acts more like a manual.

in other words, to increase engine braking? If that's the case, just shift using the regular shift knob... It feels like a manual (quite noticeable braking) in every gear except 4th/OD. I don't think locking the TCC will do much to increase braking, since I think that's mainly a function of a clutch that's attached to the manual valve circuit (again)... but I don't know.

quote Originally posted by Will: Re: 4T60E line pressure control... Darth Fiero removed the check valve from his vacuum modulator so that the modulator sees boost pressure and adjusts line pressure accordingly. I assume you've also done this, X?

actually i dont believe there is a check valve in the mod. I have an inline check valve so that mine does NOT see boost. My new tranny has a modified pump that creates 300 psi of line pressure, so putting boost to the mod will make it go even higher than that. Actually I think I blew out a valve body gasket because recently my line pressure has dropped some, and it doesnt like the 2-3 shift. My old check valve didnt "check" anymore, and it was putting 18 psi of boost to the modulator. Oops. My guage only goes to 300 psi and it was totally pegged, so I have no idea how high it actually went.