I've heard people have installed 91-94(?) Grand Prix steering wheels (that have the radio/cd changer buttons on them)... So it may be possible to install one of the "tapshift" wheels like on the newer grand prix' and use those instead.

btw - I should have some time to work on this this weekend. <crosses fingers>

Hopefully, you'll be busy making guns.

my part is done, the complete paddle unit prototype is finished

[This message has been edited by rvalmore (edited 03-25-2005).]

All stock fiero wheels are the same as far as fit, and location to the steering column. These will be slightly adjustable by the installer to give the perfect feel to each application. Yes, I will be selling the paddles and the controller unit will be purchased from Ryan Hess. The paddles are attached with screws on a pivot point. Yes. Not yet.

I think he's asking how the paddles are attached to the column. And yeah, your pics show off the paddles better than mine did

Rich

This one I posted pictures of is just the prototype. I need to get some paddles ordered. Ryan Hess is in charge of that. Im just making the switch box.

Ryan, let me know how i can get like 10 of them, so I can get the initial 5 sets made. Also let me know when itll be ok to sell a few of them, (like in Rich's scenairo), as im kind of strapped for cash right now and plopping down a bunch of money on paddles that arent paid for might be somewhat of a problem. Although I can pay with a credit card. Let me know.

I know without having the computer for the new 6 speed that is due out in a couple years you really don't know how it would work together with your paddle shift feature, but can you give us any insight into how much modding would need to be done??? Any info would be awesome if you could...I know this is liking asking for the moon, but ya never know till you try right.....

edit: Could you also mod this feature to work as both manumatic and full automatic?? My bad, I just reread the thread.......Could you give any kinda quote as to how much more having both options would cost the buyer???

[This message has been edited by pavo_roddy (edited 03-26-2005).]

I would like to get one of those 6t80e's myself. Knowing GM, it will be like all their other transmissions, with an extra wire or two. It may require a redesign of the board, or an add-on "adapter", but it wouldn't be hard at all. I'm not really interested in creating a full automatic, but I'll send you a PM anyways... Also, just an update, I have finished the programming on the new universal TCM ("new/universal" compared to the one that's in my car now that only runs the 4t80e), and have just ordered some boards for the first batch of TCMs. In the next week, I plan on installing a "new" one in my car, and testing it out. Assuming no problems, I'll ship a few to my testers, and those who NEED one asap...

Sign me up to be one.Tranny and engine waiting for the kit......

http://www.levelten.com/store/gm/items/electronics/gm_shiftronic.

could it be connected to paddles?

Fixed your link. That is more or less exactly what I have, minus the paddles. $500 huh? Maybe I should start charging more, after all, mine has paddleshifting.. j/k

Just to update you guys patiently waiting... I spent the day building myself a new TCM, and installing it per the directions (well, more like to help write the directions). I haven't quite figured out what I want to do with the display portion of it yet... The cheap thing to do would be to let you guys figure it out, and make it be a true "kit". (Some assembly required, you know the type). Anyways, I have the electric trunk release, and no defrost. Ideally, I would need the panel the other way around (defrost, no release), that way I could cut the panel to size, and install the release button in the bottom hole.

But I just went along, and used some bondo and flat black paint to fill in the portion of the upper hole that the display doesn't cover. Here's what I got:

It may be hard to see, but the little black thing below it is the brightness adjustment. One day I may have autodimming as a feature, but for now this works very good.

Tomorrow it's supposed to be pretty nice outside, so I plan on taking her for a spin, and checking the functionality.

Oh - just an update on pricing - the current plan is $160 shipped (150+10 shipping). However - I am desperately trying to find a cheap source for 12 conductor wire to hook up the display and paddles...... If I can't find one, I may be forced to raise the price by $10. *that is all* though. I think you guys are getting one hell of a deal, considering about 5 man hours goes into building each one. (I have to drill the case, assemble the boards, cut the slot for the connector-a-big-PITA, assemble the board to the case......)

Consider this price to be the "PFF special". I will more than likely start selling these on ebay, and see "what they're really worth" Considering I am a full time student, broke, and jobless, this should be a nice part time business. Gotta feed the fiero somehow

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-02-2005).]

quote Originally posted by ryan.hess: Gotta feed the fiero somehow

Totally understand....Let me kow when I can throw it a bone .......

Now, one thing that still needs tweaking for those with 65e and 80e's - the percentage of the TPS to have the tranny shift at max pressure. Ideally, this number would be adjustable by you, but unfortunately it would require remaking the boards ($$). So, I will adjust it so the pressure follows the TPS linearly as it does now, but after a certain point, goes to max pressure. That way anything above say, 75% throttle will get maximum pressure, and not the linear 75% of max pressure it would if I did not change anything.

So, in summary, max and min pressure will be adjustable, the 75% will not be. But, you can have it run on max or min pressure all the time, or have it follow the TPS as shown below (recommended):

Bob

Thanks for your kind words. Originally, this project started as just a way for me to drive my car, but developed into something that other people wanted..... It's been fun working on it.

Although right now I don't have the paddles installed (right now I have pushbuttons ), I guess it's time to start using my sig some more...

------------------
Ryan

Owner of the *only* paddlePushbutton-shifted, Northstar powered fiero.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-04-2005).]

also, has anybody ever used there defrost button? iv owned two, lived in michigan, driven through all seasons, and dont think i have ever used the defrost. i just dont think the fiero needs it with the vertical window tucked under a roof. perfect spot for the display.

To Paddle Or Not To Paddle?
Is there a way to offer more then ONE input for up and down with maybe a switch to block out the non used one? I like the paddles on the wheel but some times id just rather use a movable shifter like the ones mentioned before from the VW... Id take care of the design work for that because its what i do id just like to use the shifter when im casualy driving... dont always like BOTH hands up by the wheel.

Dont Pull To Hard...
For shifting force... im worried that with a more hopped up engine or somthing boosted that 100% pressure is too much and could damage internals.... I LOVE the idea mentioned before about pulling time on the paddle changing how hard the tranny engages... but what about using somthing similar to the technology used in Playstation controllers... the HARDER you press (or pull in our case) the fast you go (or harder you shift in our case)? Is the first idea still availible and the second one even plausable?

Heads UP!
What about making the display read backwards so it could be mounted in a small pod ON the gauge pod and work like a heads up display?? Could this be a second output for the shift light so that it could be mounted in more then one location? Feasable?

I think thats it.... for now

------------------
"Raced That, Wrecked Better" ~In Memory Of Jesse Cesek~ 1980-2000
US Armored Cavalry - Fox 2/81 - Death By 120 - 1 Shot 1 Kill

quote Originally posted by The Fieromaster: To Paddle Or Not To Paddle? Is there a way to offer more then ONE input for up and down with maybe a switch to block out the non used one? I like the paddles on the wheel but some times id just rather use a movable shifter like the ones mentioned before from the VW... Id take care of the design work for that because its what i do id just like to use the shifter when im casualy driving... dont always like BOTH hands up by the wheel.

However, if you really wanted something that worked only on the "pull time", I could do that for you.

Wouldn't be a problem. The display board I have is practically already set up for that. Just switch a few wires around, and there you go, instant HUD. However, I think I would have to make the display significantly brighter, and/or go with a different, brighter display, but all that's relatively simple.

From what i understood before... "Drive" no longer functions fully automatically right?? As long as there are no electronic or other reasons WHY i cant do it i would like to eliminate 1-2-3 from the pattern and have only P-R-N-D and then either a slot so i can push up and down to shift OR putting it into drive would have a left and right gates to shift that way... like a upside down T park at the top and Drive would be the left and right at the bottom. There actually would be no D on it only a + and - after N maybe a custom cut in the locking gate so i cant pop her into N on accident.

I would like to actually try a COUPLE of these shifter ideas then perhaps offer them to PFF members depending on what the majority likes. I need to find my AutoCAD R14 + Mechanical Desktop serial numbers... arg!

Actually i still kinda like that idea. I would use that also if i went with the shifter shifting rather then paddle... then you just WHACK that puppy real quick and 100% SLAMMO!!! I mean is that ALLOT of extra work? Im assuming i no longer would need to tie into the TPS then or COULD i and make it a fale safe so it does NOT slam in at 100% while driving in front of a cop at 1/4 throttle??

[This message has been edited by The Fieromaster (edited 04-05-2005).]

Ryan, might want to make sure that anyone buying this from you knows this as a disclaimer for you. Many don't know this and may think that after running on minimum pressure and then having a problem that it is your fault.

[This message has been edited by slickrick2000 (edited 04-05-2005).]

LoL... I think a disclaimer for installing the kit AT ALL would be a good idea.... "Installing this kit may void any and all warrenties expressed or implied... blah blah blah" Keep YO azz safe... not that id sue ya if i nuked a tranny... Isnt that what Superchargers are for?

Yeah, I may yet tweak it so the max pressure can only be "so low"... It's already written in the instruction manual that I'm working on. I'll put a big disclaimer in the back of the manual though... "for offroad use only, do not install wires if colorblind and dislexic.. ", etc

How much extra to build the TCM that adjusts line pressure according to "pull time"? This makes the transaxle a true clutchless sequential manual to me, because I control how each individual shift occurs. Kind of like whether or not I granny shift it, or slam a gear and let the clutch fly!

------------------
Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

Yes, pressure is controlled by you, and the TCM, and the TPS signal... I don't know how much extra for the paddle-shift-time-feature. Bare minimum, I'd need some more development time to figure out the fastest I can shift with the paddles

The transmission does downshift with the controller... But it does not engine brake like a manual, unless you use the shifter. Why? Because there is an overrun clutch that (I think) is only activated using the manual shift arm. Like I mentioned before, I don't think there's any way around that, it's just the nature of the automatic beast.

*However* - IF locking the TCC works to engine brake like a manual, I may be able to lock it in every gear except 1st, and just have the person downshift to 1st before coming to a stop. I personally wouldn't like having to do that, especially with the opportunity to stall the engine if it's not in 1st when you're stopped. On top of that, I don't know how it will react to shifting with the TCC locked. It may not like that at all (like powershifting a manual). Which means I have to program in unlocking during shifts.

Also - I'm having a heck of a time figuring out how I can use the 4t60e... There are a heck of a lot of different versions. Right now - it looks like my controller can only control the ones that have the transmission range switch box on top of the tranny, on the shift lever arm. Unfortunately, I don't have the pinout for this switchbox, so I have no idea how to hook it up.

Now - the TCM may not even need to know what gear you've selected on the shift arm for the 60e. If it's been manually shifted to 1st, it may override the shift solenoids.... I just find it really wierd that the ECM for the 91-93 3.4L, 1994 3.1L and 93 3.1L engines with 4t60e transmission doesn't care what gear you've selected! Just whether it's in park/neutral or not.

If that's the case, then I don't need the pinout for the switchbox, and that's 4 less wires to hookup. What I need is a guinea pig for the 60e transmission, that doesn't mind grinding noises. Rich? Still interested? j/k. I'll have to talk to the local transmission expert. Hopefully he'll know more about the internal workings of this thing than me.

P.S. Welcome to my world.

okay - to add to the information above - it's called the "coast clutch" in the 4t80e. It is only active on manual 3rd, 2nd, 1st. Now, I don't recall engine braking when I had the TCM demand 2nd gear when it was in manual 3rd gear.. I'll have to take a drive tomorrow to find out. Maybe all it takes is to manually shift into 3rd, and use the paddles normally for every gear upto 3. Hmm... the investigation continues.<shrug>

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-06-2005).]

I know, I know, the line pressure can't be controlled electronically on the 60. I was asking about it because I plan to upgrade to a 65 later. If I bought one and used it with the 60, would it work "as is" on the 65 or would it need to be recalibrated? Not a problem either way, just curious.

------------------
Todd Perkins - the member formerly known as "perkidelic"
todd's hot rods

All the transmissions are quite different, so it would need to be sent back to me to be reprogrammed for the 65... No cost, just pay shipping.

Wait so i lose the STRONG engine braking that id get from a manual OR will i lose the engine dragging that happens when you let off the gas on an automatic? Cause even my auto's would some what drag.... at least enough to keep the RPMs of the engine somewhat close to the tranny input shaft speed!
IF there is no engine braking AT ALL then what happends to engine rpm when you let off gas? Do they drop to IDLE? If so that could be BAD if you let off then STOMP back on the gas as the engine accelerates FAST and un resisted to catch up to tranny speed then SLAMS when it gets there... know what i mean? I just wonder if when you downshift and such does the engine ramp up to matching RPMs at all?
It could be a good thing that there is no strong engine braking like driving a auto manually though.... specially when racing, downshifting in corner wont cause the tires to possibly brake grip and you can still power out of the apex.

Im quite interested in this part of the systems workings....

Well basically all that garble up there boils down to this... (lol) Does it downshift JUST like the manual does by itself.... and is RPM matching and such JUST like a regular automatic?

Ok this one gets me.... I may be TOTALLY WRONG but this is what my brain is saying...

your telling me that the minimum time for the shift should be say.... .020 of a second... well not that the stopwatch on my phone is super acurate but the fastest i think by this id have to shift is .25 wich is way faster then .020 i know that the other problem is if this is right then setting the fastest shift speed TOO fast means ill NEVER hit 100% line pressure.... so it would have to be dialed in correctly UNLESS you can make fastest shift speed to go OVER 100% line presssure (just for the computer even though its not valve feasable) just so that i could tweak my OWN personal fastest to BE 100% if i wanted it. Know what i mean? Or maybe my stopwatch just sucks THAT BAD... lol. The internet said Ms = thousandth of a second .001

Later

------------------
"Raced That, Wrecked Better" ~In Memory Of Jesse Cesek~ 1980-2000
US Armored Cavalry - Fox 2/81 - Death By 120 - 1 Shot 1 Kill

For some reason I can't quote your entire post. But I just got back from a drive to check a few things out. When I place the shifter into manual 3rd, and shift into any gear other than 3rd, there is no engine braking like I thought there would be... My best guess is the solenoids move the fluid away from the coast clutch, but reading these fluid diagrams is giving me a headache.

When say, you are in manual 4th gear, and use the buttons to shift to 1st gear - there is no noticeable difference at all. You may hear a click, but that's it. It more or less coasts, as if you dropped your foot on the clutch. If you're doing 20mph, and go from 4th to 1st, and slam on the gas, the engine will feel like it's in neutral until it's rpm's match the desired input rpm's (say, 3000). Then you'll accelerate forward. And yes - it does drop to idle if you lift the gas.

I personally want to find a way out of this. Engine braking is almost a must. When you're going through the twisties, you want the engine to stay at rpm's while you paddle up and down the gears. Right now that's only possible if you move the shifter. Damn that coast clutch!!! There has GOT to be a way around this. Anybody familiar with the intimate details of an automatic transmission? I can post the fluid diagrams.....

edit: whoops- yeah, it may not be possible to shift as fast as 20ms.. like I said, I need more research to make it happen.

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-06-2005).]

I would believe the reason you cant find a way out of that engine brake thing is that the auto maybe never WOULD shift itself from 3rd to first like that... im not sure how it DOES do it... but i NEVER noticed my car going to idle if i let off the gas while driving in gear... thats kinda wierd.

***what worries ME about that is if your driving say at 4,000 rpm in 3rd and let off gas and the rpm drops to IDLE then you stomp the gas to say... catch another car The rpm will RACE to 4,000 where it catches up with the tranny speed and WHAMMO!!!! Like a bomb went off in your trans. Correct me if im wrong but is that what happens?

I am may not be as much help BUT i did design machines for a living with PLC controls (didnt do allot of actual PLC work) but i diagnosed them and assembled them after design so everything worked right. Most my experience is air power but fluid power cant be much different in valving eh? If you want me to check them out my email is above this post ^^^^ (email button) lol

Thanks so much for all the research!!! Hope this all gets worked out!

quote ***what worries ME about that is if your driving say at 4,000 rpm in 3rd and let off gas and the rpm drops to IDLE then you stomp the gas to say... catch another car The rpm will RACE to 4,000 where it catches up with the tranny speed and WHAMMO!!!! Like a bomb went off in your trans. Correct me if im wrong but is that what happens?

The TCM mentioned above says that it locks the TCC to engine brake. I had a conversation with Darth Fiero and this, and we seem to be in agreement that it wouldn't do anything... but... these other TCM guys' website say it does, so either it's deceptive marketing, it FEELS like it's engine braking, or it's the real deal. I'm going to play around with it tomorrow.

btw - Darth thinks that there's no way around the overrun/coast clutch (drilling into the valve body included), but I hope he's wrong

Also, I may have to suspend the 4t65e and certain 4t60e applications for the TCM - it was brought to my attention that those with a PWM type torque converter clutch need a very smooth application- something that would require extensive rework of just about everything, new boards, new micro, new programming. Or else you can just not hook the TCC up Or...... perhaps a seperate add-on daughter board..... yeah..... I like that better. Plan on that.

heh... on second thought, this might still be doable with just a little more programming. I thought I used up my PWM outputs, but maybe not.....

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 04-06-2005).]