Bobby good stuff. Im happy to be doing business with you. It's a shame people get on here and try to find a way to make it out like someone is copying other peoples work.
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04:46 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
Originally posted by Rare87GT: I mean I dont see any WCF people in here wondering what's up or why their stuff is being reproduced...
And if you think about it, everyone is making 3800sc Brackets and Mounts for the swap now, no one is getting upset about that for some reason.
Just because we aren't on here wondering "whats up" doesn't mean that we aren't watching and I'm appreciative that none of our supporters have been overly rabid as to our defense with personal attacks as has been the case in the past.
Just because we have seen others blatantly copy our mounts in the past doesn't mean that we need to jump at every person whose product looks like ours. One should always choose their battles.
For the record though, we know that our 88 brackets have been tested brutally in the past so we have yet to see any strength issues that Bobby has found a need to address. If someone is having a problem with our 88 brackets, as I have said in the past, if we don't know they're broken, we don't know to fix them.
Suffice to say, it has been our impression that Bobby's design is primarily for the benefit of the Forum.
If there comes a time when more needs to be said, then we'll say it.
quote
Originally posted by Archie: Now everyone knows that I don't like WCF even a little bit. And I couldn't care what anyone does to WCF.
HOWEVER, IMHO, what is going on here is wrong.
For clarification though, there is NO direct animosity from WCF against Archie on a professional or personal basis. Chris still maintains a standing invitation to Archie for a beer the next time he comes down for Knotts Berry Farm Kit Car show.
Past comments from Eric and certain supporters were not productive and not in the best interest of WCF and its reputation to the Fiero community. Such is the folly of youth and should be dealt with as such.
Past comments from myself have been from the position of President of Fieros West and have been in response to comments made towards my club and other clubs of Southern and Central California. Everyone knows that I personally don't like Archie even a little bit (I believe that its a point that has been well documented and I have seen no need to expound on it.) but I would hasten to say that this doesn't mean that WCF has animosity towards him. He does things differently than we might. He has different views on things. Get three mechanics together and you'll have differing opinions.
But to say that Chris West does not like Archie would be inaccurate. He has not met him at length and would rather make up his own mind on Archie rather than listen to the latest "he said, she said."
Chris and I felt that this point needed to be clarified.
Anthony West Coast Fiero President, Fieros West
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07:27 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
Anthony, I have not said anything bad about you brackets, I did make them stronger but then again I do over do alot of things I make. With them being brackets for brakes I really didn't hold back. Infact, I think I did say your brackets are nice, I haven't seen them off of a car the where already mounted, but it looked like a nice set up. And no, this is not my main business "brakes" I wanted them for my car, and to make them cheaper I made extras to sell here and to help out other here.
Archie, I was thinking this afternoon and I can kind of see where your coming from. Having someone copy your idea sucks. Calling you an a$$ was wrong. I just let it get to me, I spent sometime on this and to have someone take that away from me upset me fast!!! I do want to say that I am sorry for calling you names, I just really wish you would have talked to me before you stated anything.
So anyways....sorry for the name calling.
Bobby
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
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08:00 PM
Smokey Dawg Member
Posts: 25 From: United States of Mexico Registered: May 2004
Just because we aren't on here wondering "whats up" doesn't mean that we aren't watching and I'm appreciative that none of our supporters have been overly rabid as to our defense with personal attacks as has been the case in the past.
Just because we have seen others blatantly copy our mounts in the past doesn't mean that we need to jump at every person whose product looks like ours. One should always choose their battles.
For the record though, we know that our 88 brackets have been tested brutally in the past so we have yet to see any strength issues that Bobby has found a need to address. If someone is having a problem with our 88 brackets, as I have said in the past, if we don't know they're broken, we don't know to fix them.
Suffice to say, it has been our impression that Bobby's design is primarily for the benefit of the Forum.
If there comes a time when more needs to be said, then we'll say it.
There you go Bobby, WKDFIRO hates me so much that he has just given you written permission to copy the WCF parts as long as it's for the benifit of the Forum. You should write me a Thank You letter.
When someone gets around to copying the 6 speed stuff from WCF as long as you do it for the benifit of the Forum, you can count me in.
I would respond to your pictures & cardboard cutout patterns but, now that WKDFIRO has given away the store, it doesn't matter anymore.
Archie
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09:03 PM
MarkJPana Member
Posts: 1926 From: Marlboro, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2003
archie: bobby did his homework, ideas are not something that can be squelched. he took the time and effort to arrange this all, for the benefit of the forum (to copy WKDFIRO's words). i dont see whats wrong with competition. its what our economy thrives on, so why stop it. i for one dont like any monopoly, because there are 3 different people doing the same upgrade is just another way. will you and WCF loose customers, possibly, but there are many people who dont know anything about this new kit, that will turn to you, or WCF for the brackets and rotors. everyone has their specialty. you are known for your awesome V8 kits and choptops (both of which i wish i had). WCF deals with the V6's. and now bobby has come up with an affordable brake upgrade for us 88 owners. the parts for the 88 are mor expensive already, so whats the harm in making at least one part more affordable?
ill step off the soapbox, but i think this is headed south to the TC realy soon.
you guys just need to settle your differences and move on. everyones done their bickering and name-calling, now can we all please act like adults? or shall we all just head over to the PSF?
[/rant]
------------------ ~Mark Panasevich 3.4 Project Started ~ Gathering The Goodies AIM : Mjpana252 email : MarkJPana@Comcast.net
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09:14 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
The holes that have threads are wider and I have the brackets at 3/8", again other than where its threaded. That was the size the first one have been made of. The final bracket size will be looked into more when the rotors get here.
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
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09:35 PM
Firefox Member
Posts: 4307 From: New Berlin, Wisconsin Registered: Feb 2003
.......you guys just need to settle your differences and move on. everyones done their bickering and name-calling, now can we all please act like adults? or shall we all just head over to the PSF?
[/rant]
Wow, Mark......did you happen to see the posts before yours? It sure looks like everything is settled and they did move on. Maybe you should take a look............
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11:13 PM
MarkJPana Member
Posts: 1926 From: Marlboro, MA, USA Registered: Mar 2003
There you go Bobby, WKDFIRO hates me so much that he has just given you written permission to copy the WCF parts as long as it's for the benifit of the Forum. You should write me a Thank You letter.
When someone gets around to copying the 6 speed stuff from WCF as long as you do it for the benifit of the Forum, you can count me in.
I would respond to your pictures & cardboard cutout patterns but, now that WKDFIRO has given away the store, it doesn't matter anymore.
Archie
Like a ball in tall weeds, the point has been lost on those who wish to blow hard rather than taking the time to think it all the way through.
No where do we condone this brake kit. But the amount of options available to stop this from happening are just not viable. The only good thing that we can say is that the Forum might get some support. Thats about it. Thats what I was trying to say and be nice about it.
Hell yes Bobby, it does look like you're copying our brackets regardless of the slight deviations and substitute engineering. It looks like, once again, someone on the forum doesn't want to pay the price that others have paid to develop a product. The pictures of cardboard don't need further comment, that Bobby is getting the Forum to pay for his Fiero's 12 inch brakes don't need comment. It is what it is no matter how many people he PM'd selling his wares.
In December of 2005, its not likely that Bobby will be selling brake brackets. WCF will be selling brake brackets. Is Purple Reign still selling mounts? We were expecting some sort of drop in mount sales....
The bottom line is that there is nothing we can do about it. We can get online and make all sorts of threats and call him a bunch of names. What more do you expect other than sending Gweedo down to make him stop like they did in the old country. Most everyone in this business of Fiero aftermarket such as Archie, Rodney, Fiero Store and WCF try to keep the prices down to something reasonable but these companies are the ones who also need to keep the lights on and bills paid. They are the ones that put in the time to develop new products and in general do respect each other's product lines. The time they have invested in development is what keeps everyone's Fiero (or Fieros) on the road.
In the end its not that we underestimate some people. Some people behave exactly as we would expect.
[This message has been edited by WKDFIRO (edited 12-13-2004).]
I see it as I have seen in other threads about the adaptor plate being copied for the V-8. The brake bracket falls in the same boat, you can only make the bracket one way for it to work, theres no way around making it look to much differant and it still work. The bracket has to be so tall, so wide and the holes have to be in the right spot for it to work. Theres not to many ways to do that but to have the bracket that looks like someone elses. Several others have made there own brackets and not sold them to others, are they wrong also? I am sure there brackets are pretty close in looks as the WCF brackets. I see it if a person on his own can produce the same kit for $200.00 cheaper than a actual company can, then something isnt right. This is how I view the subject at hand and as long as I can get something for cheaper, I will support that person. This is just mu opinion on the subject.
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11:57 PM
Dec 14th, 2004
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
I now know where not to shop! They were made to fit, thats really all I can say. That all I am going to say about this from now on.
I do know I am not going to continue to look into doing this for the 84 to 87's, why should I. It may look like somone elses and then I would have to deal with this again, no thanks!
I was going to make up extra brackets for an aftermarket mirror and bracket set for all the Fieros, but this has shown me its not worth it.
Archie, you are who you are and I knew that so I will say no hard feelings. I will even buy you a beer and give you the finger at World of Wheels next year.
And WKDFIRO, there is a local place near you that has some well made cross drilled rotors, having them shipped out here was just to much money. But he did have a good final price with a bulk order. Just to let you know 95% or more of the orders I did get paid for the cross drilled rotors, so I guess I didn't take away from your business since you do not sell them.
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
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01:11 AM
jaygt Member
Posts: 120 From: toronto,ontario, canada Registered: Feb 2004
the guy wanted to put 12 inch rotors on his fiero. he figured he had to move the caliper mounting points. he made a bracket. hes selling some to offset his costs. thats it. if someone else has done the same this good for them. how much different are they going to be? your moving a couple bolt holes get over it. this isnt rocket science.
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11:05 AM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
the guy wanted to put 12 inch rotors on his fiero. he figured he had to move the caliper mounting points. he made a bracket. hes selling some to offset his costs. thats it. if someone else has done the same this good for them. how much different are they going to be? your moving a couple bolt holes get over it. this isnt rocket science.
I really am not sure, I guess we would be having this talk if I didn't clean the up with a grinder or if the machine shop didn't use a lazer to make the cuts?
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
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12:00 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
True it does say that in the directions I downloaded a few years back, fair enough.
I stand corrected, The copy I had did say it was posted on the web with permission. Thanks Robby for your post, I double checked my copy of the 11.26" brake upgrade after reading your link to make sure they were the same.
I thought it said in there to distribute freely, I was wrong. I should have read mine before posting.
------------------ Earl Rice 87 T-Top GT 5 Spd 11.25" Brakes 3400 Gen III Turbo in progress
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12:58 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
I am not wanting to continue this to upset anybody, just want to make everyone happy here. Is that why we all belong here to this forum. I know thats why I joined, to get help and to help out others that I can help. Plus to make a few more friends that are into these cars? I do not have any hard feels toward anybody so I am hoping the same from them!
I was led to understand were they are coming from, I would hate to put in alot of time, sweat and tears into something and have someone take that away from me! I have had nothing but good things come from this, so we are still good to go.
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
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01:47 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Should I take this to mean that you are doubting my word?
Or are you just upset that after you had the permission from WCF to copy their stuff, you couldn't leave it alone & had to ask them if your parts looked like theirs?
quote
Originally posted by FieroGT87:
I stand corrected, The copy I had did say it was posted on the web with permission. Thanks Robby for your post, I double checked my copy of the 11.26" brake upgrade after reading your link to make sure they were the same.
I thought it said in there to distribute freely, I was wrong. I should have read mine before posting.
Lucky for me that I have kept everything even remotely related to Fieros from day one.
I have just resently moved & much of the archives are still in boxes, but I'll find that newsletter & scan it to this thread for you. That document predates the Internet so I'll post it up when I can find it.
Archie
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02:04 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
I posted it to show there are lot of info out there on brake upgrades, I did not really save alot of them but here was just a couple I have found. So you say copy, I am just showing there are many ways to get info.
Is there something other than this thread I have done to piss you off there Archie? It seems that way!
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
how egotistical can people be to believe that they are the only ones capable of designing a brake upgrade using existing components? especially something as simple as the 88 brakes that uses the stock calipers and just an oversized set of rotors..
[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 12-14-2004).]
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03:36 PM
Dec 18th, 2004
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I'm pretty sure Bobby hadn't started building brackets when I built my 88 conversion, and I've never seen the ones made by WCF. I still haven't looked at WCF but if they look like Bobbys then I guess mine look like WCF also. I got the idea of using the Vette rotors from BubbaJoe and came up with my own brackets by trial and error (which was documanted in another thread if you doubt it). My obvious point is that regardles of who "designs" them, the're all gona' look pretty much the same.
"my" 88 brake design.
play nice, Russ
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02:33 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
Yes Russ, alot of wasted material went into this also. I made it as large as I could so it would hold up and just cut out where it was needed so they fit. I did remove some steel where it was needed to help keep them as light as possible but I didn't want to remove to much. I guess you could say I copied your too? Since they may look alot alike. Anyway, how have yours held up over time? Bobby
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
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04:42 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
Yes Russ, alot of wasted material went into this also. I made it as large as I could so it would hold up and just cut out where it was needed so they fit. I did remove some steel where it was needed to help keep them as light as possible but I didn't want to remove to much. I guess you could say I copied your too? Since they may look alot alike. Anyway, how have yours held up over time? Bobby
No.... I don't think you copied my brackets.............. but those concentric rings sure look like a dead ringer of the ones I designed. LOL I think I have about 20 miles on the brakes so far without a single failure I drove it down to town so the painter could look over my body work on the WB kit. I want it understood that I'm not saying that you didn't copy WCF, or anyone else, only that just looking like someone elses doesn't make it so. [shrug]
Russ
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 12-19-2004).]
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06:05 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
I started following this thread at the beginning but lost interest and just picked up on how it's progressed. The idea of adapting oversized calipers, rotors or whatever has been around for decades. And swaping car parts and making adapters has been done for a century. My friend bought adapters for 4 piston Corvette calipers from Dick Guldstrand in the mid 70s for a car he planned to road race. After paying an ungodly price for what was a hybrid of 2 oem brackets welded together we started doing our own stuff. Another friend made his own rear caliper mount for a '70 Boss 302 Mustang. He attended Arizona State University and used a CNC milling machine to make several sets of weld on adapters for Lincoln calipers to a Ford 9" rear end. He sold a few sets to friends. Two years ago I made an adapter for my 90 Corvette race car for 4 piston Alcon calipers. Baer brakes here in Phoenix makes adapters all day long to put larger rotors from one vehicle onto another. I even bought used Nascar floating rotors on ebay for dirt cheap. I made my own caliper adapters and since the hole size in the center of the rotor hat was oversize, I made what you people call concentric rings. I did this before I ever saw this forum. I called the rings "reducers". I seriously doubt if anyone has a patentable design here. Was the so called original West Coast design ever patented.? Probably not. I'm not a patent attorney but the concept of making adapters for car stuff is as old as hotrodding. Some things are patentable but a lot of things just aren't. Here we're dealing with something that's just an old concept, no innovative way of doing something that would have required a totally unique application of a principle, a material or whatever to make it patentable. And just because you get a patent, that doesn't mean it's fool proof. I have a friend who invented the swingout utility knife. He owns Cutting Edge Manufacturing. He had the knives made in China. After he had these out for a while, Chinese knockoffs started to appear everywhere. Husky, Shefield and more names than I can remember. And he had patents. His knife was a lot harder to create and make than it looks. He's spending all his time at Lowes, Home Depot and with attorneys. He's had a lot of time invested in his product, trips to China, lots of computer design equipment and much more. If anyone here has a patent, this is a good time to let it be known . Otherwise that's the way life is. People will always make there own stuff and sell to their friend and expand. That's the free enterprise system. And if anyone comes up with an idea that you think is truly unique, do a patent search, get a lawyer and get a patent! Otherwise expect others will copy, improve on it and sell it for less. I say let Bobby do his thing and I wish him the best of luck. Regards Mike W
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12:56 AM
PFF
System Bot
Dec 29th, 2004
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
I just wanted to let you all know I am still just waiting for the rotors to come in at this point. The day they come in I will be taking them down to the machine shop. The reason we are waiting for the rotors to come in to make anything else is that I did hear some rotors from each company may have a somewhat different size hub. When we make the rings I want them to fit tight, just tight enough were it needs to be popped in and not pressed. And he is going to do everything at one time, so thats why the brackets are not made yet.
Also just to let you all know, I sold my toolbox for extra money for the set up fees. I miss it!
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
First, I would like to say that I have the WCF kit and there are no issues with overhanging pads on my set. If someone else is having this problem I would contact WCF for replacements because they were not designed to be that way. As a matter of fact, my WCF brake kit replaced an HMS big brake kit that did have this kind of overhang problems, along with many other problems that they refused to fix. I am completely happy with the WCF kit.
Second, I would like to point out that the WCF kit is NOT original. i.e. I had located personal web pages that were using brackets to relocate the calipers for use with corvette rotors long before WCF started selling them, and even before bubbajoe did it. As a matter of fact, I emailed Archie himself about making a commercial kit based on those ideas way back in 2001 (practically begging him), but I never received a reply to that email. If I would've had the equipment and skills to make the brackets myself, I would have. Instead I decided to get the HMS kit, and that ended up losing me $2000 dollars that I will never see again.... But when WCF came out with the kit, I replaced the HMS system and was finally satisfied. The point is, WCF did not come up with the idea, they were just the first to market it. Because of that there is no reason that someone else couldn't do the same thing.
Even in the case of Archies products, one must remember that he is not the first person to make an adapter plate. Certainly his quality designs and ongoing interest in the fiero community have stood the test of time, making him virtually the only commercial choice for said item (and probably will have me as a customer as soon as the LS1 kit comes out). But, if someone were to make a run of adapter plates (not copies, mind you - and I do realize copies have been made illegally) to attach small blocks to fiero transmissions, there is no legal or moral issue. Now, there may be an "initiative" issue. As Archie said, more competitors = less reason to bother. As a matter of fact, there are at least 2 LS1 fieros in existance - does this mean Archie and FastFieros can't come up with kits for LS1 installs? Of course not. To my knowledge both are coming out with kits without fear of being sued, and I as a customer fully expect that it will be beneficial to the fiero community.
There is a difference between developing competing products and copying competing products.
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12:59 PM
Dec 30th, 2004
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
I just got off the phone and the first set of rotors should be here early next week, that has what they told me. I will post an update when they get here! Have a good New Years guys. Bobby
------------------ Bobby from NW Indiana 93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag 219customs@verizon.net My build thread
[This message has been edited by GSXRBOBBY (edited 12-30-2004).]
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02:22 PM
Jan 7th, 2005
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
Well its Friday the 7th and they didn't come in yet. I was told they should have been here earlier this week but didn't? I am leaving here in about an hour to go up there and find out what is going on! I will have more information tonight I will post. I am sorry and I will have this taken care of today with alot of rotors or at the least a good answer! Bobby
There was a "mix up" with the order and instead of calling me so we can work it out or talk it out he just wanted for me to get ahold of him? I do have everything worked out and the standard rotor will be here Tuesday and the first order will be here Friday, since it was later then I was hoping for I tried to just get all of the rotors at one time but he doesn't have 74 of them instock. We are going to get the second half 1 week later and they have been ordered! So we are back on track just a week behind now, again I am sorry fo rthis but it has been taken care of. Any questions e-mail me or call me. Bobby
If you are wondering what number you are on the list e-mail me and I will let you know, send along your full name. I have a few memebers that I don't have there user name noted. 219customs@verizon.net I have had two write: One has gave up his spot to be nice since he is not installing them right away And the second doesn't have the rest of his money right now and has asked for a daily
The standard rotor did come in yesterday and are going to the machine shop today, which means the bracket and rings should be started this week guys. The first order of cross drilled rotors should be here Friday and will go straight to the machine. As I get more info. from the machine shop I will pass it along. Again though to be fair I am going to send packages out in the order I got payment. I have talked to most of you and you also thought that was the fair thing to do!
I have good and bad news?!?! Not only was our order large but the guy that they were ordered from and sent to he was large so we got 1/2 of the first order yesterday, the second half of the first order and his should be here today. I will be going up there to get them all as soon as they do get in! So we are getting there! I did just get off the phone and updated the machine shop. Bobby
