Well thank you!

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

I am writing you with some updated news, I have run into my first problem. I talked with many different places, around 14 places trying to get a good deal on good rotors. I then had them all narrowed down to 5 places.
(1) The first place I tried to make the final deal with started to plat some BS games with me such as adding extra money to the shipping cost and would not allow me to use someone other than there shipper. They also told me they wold be zinc coated and then later tried to add that as an extra charge, so I desided not to use them.
(2) I worked out a final deal with a second place. They sent me a set of cross drilled rotors to look over. They are junk, it looked as if they took a standard rotor and just hand drilled it out to make it cross drilled, it was ruff looking. Also, even though I was told they were zinc plated it did not appear to be. I sent them back!
(3) The last 3 places I have been talking to are in California, I though I was going to pay about $200 for shipping them to my location here in N.W. Indiana but due to the weight of 30 lbs. each I am looking at $552 for shipping, and that freight not UPS. UPS will only ship a package under 150 lbs. so I would have had to shipped many smaller packages and we would have been looking at close to $1000 just to get the rotors here.
If I continue at the price I posted I am going to be losing money per person. I am sorry to say I can not do that.
(4) I did find a local company near me late last week, they are the supplier for all the midwest Napa auto parts stores "as far as performance brake rotors go", they also deal with some other area performance shops near me. They are sending me a pair of rotors to look over and they should be here Monday, Tuesday at the latest. After I look them over and if I deside they are good enough to use they will need to order more to be made. That will take about 2 weeks I am told, they just don't have an extra 72 rotors for our order and for them to supply there other accounts. There price is more then what I was hoping to send, infact they are about $18.00 more then the others, but then again they are alot less than most. But I am a strong believer in you get what you pay for, and this warehouse has a great reputation for selling high quility high performance parts. I will again let you know what I have found after I look them over.

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

Here are the rotors I have made final.

This picture is the rotor, but I did not take it. I do not think this rotor pictured is coated?
They are US made and looked great, a pair were brought me down to me today for me to look them over. They looked great and the order should be here in 2 weeks, he said maybe 3 weeks with it getting close to Christmas but that would be a safe guess. They are coated and have the best clean cut to them! They will have a 90 day warranty on cracking and worping.

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

Those will look great behind a nice big set of wheels. Can't wait to get my kit.

Looks awesome, I like the slotted/drilled combo. I can hardly contain my anticipation

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So I take it my hard work has paid off, I did alot of shopping, if they weren't for car parts I'd say I was close to becoming a girl, yep to much shopping!!!!!!!
I really am glad to see you guys happy, you will be even happier when I have them done and you get them!

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

i'll go with these! just for the cool factor

I think they will look really good behind an open 5 or 6 spoke wheel.

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

Forgive me for not being up on this brake up-grade. One compound question: Do you use the stock 88 fiero caliper; if not what caliper(s) do you use. I may be interested in the brackets, the cost of shipping 4 rotors to Nova Scotia may be too high. My postal code is B0N 2A0. I would have to compare the cost of shipping the rotors to me with the cost of getting them redrilled here.

You would use the stock 88 brake caliper, it is a strong enough caliper and has some really strong braking power with the larger rotor.
If you or anybody would like to check there shipping fee's my zip code here is 46383 Valparaiso, Indiana
I can also have them shipped from here or take them across town to the UPS store. Again I did just update my UPS account so I maybe able to get a small discount, I will work on that whe nthe time gets close to have them shipped out. I will do everything I can to help you all out with the shipping cost.

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

Any idea how much this will weigh and how big it will be to ship? My very rough calculation put it at $130USD for me!

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I'm not trying to nit pick, just help you out. should your new email be verison.net or verizon.net?

Tim thank you very much!!!
verizon.net

219customs@verizon.net

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

(From a PM I got)
bobby,

i'm considering order your brake package for my car.
a couple of questions.
1. when will these be ready?
2. i seen the cost rise from your original post, will the price rise again?
3. do you want to be paid in full or half down and the other half when ready to ship?
4. payment? paypal (account)

thanks,

1. The 1st bulk order of rotors have just been ordered, the second bulk order will be ordered in 2 weeks. The first order of rotors will be here in two weeks, when they arrive the machine shop will start to redrill the rotors and make the brackets and rings, That should take a week and they will be shipped out in the order I got the money or payment from each person. I will do the same with the second bulk order.
2. The cost had to be risen so I did not have to pay "what I thought to be junk rotors", I am getting them from a local place near me and they are really well made and look sharp.
The price I got from the machine shop is the only reason it could go up and I see no reason why it should, I talked everything out with him and he gave me what I took as a set price!
Also shipping is paid by each person, we are looking at $16 to $50 per person via UPS
3. I have been taking 1/2 down and will continue to do so, I want to keep doing that since Christmas is coming and I don't want people to feel they have to send alot all at one time right now. I have had a few just send all the money and I did make sure I noted there account with me.
4. Paypal is fine 219customs@verizon.net or a money order and cash is fine.

Feel free to ask any other questions you may have or think of!
Bobby

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

The first bulk order of rotors were ordered earlier this week and should be here in 2 weeks, well depending on the Christmas rush. When they get here the machine shop is going to start making the brackets, rings and redrilling the rotors. I am hoping that shouldn't be more or at least much more than a week. So the first order should be ready to be shipped in about 3 weeks from now. The second bulk order of rotors will be ordered in 2 or 3 weeks from now, all the brackets and rings will all be made the first time so the second wave of orders will only have to wait for the rotors to be shipped and redrilled so they should be ready a week or 2 after the first order or should I just say 4 to 5 weeks from now.
Again, to be fair I am shipping them in the order I got the money from each person unless they do not have there second half. However, alot of the first orders I did get, they paid in full so they will get them in the first come first shipped order, again just to be fair.
No really new big news just passing along some info. to keep you guys updated.

I am still taking orders for the second bulk order of rotors.

At this point to just be safe, please start to e-mail me at 219customs@verizon.net
Bobby

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

i can say i own the wcf set and their caliper bracket adapters dont line up the pads to the rotor very well, they hang over the top quite a bit..

quote Originally posted by ShueGlue737: i can say i own the wcf set and their caliper bracket adapters dont line up the pads to the rotor very well, they hang over the top quite a bit..

That happens more often than you think. Someone goes and copies someone elses' product. If he doesn't even bother to put one together himself, he ends up copying the design flaws too.

To tell you the truth, this whole thread, bothers me.

"Group Buys" of an existing product are fine & should be encouraged. BUT what we have here is a "Group Copy" of someone elses' product.

Now everyone knows that I don't like WCF even a little bit. And I couldn't care what anyone does to WCF.

HOWEVER, IMHO, what is going on here is wrong.

The people that are committing to buying these brake kits are financing the unauthorized copying of someone elses' ideas & products & that's just wrong.

When someone makes dozens of copies of someone elses' products, he takes the incentive away from that vendor & other vendors to stay away from R&D'ing new products to serve the Fiero community.

Someday, some Fiero owner is going to ask why the Fiero vendors quit coming up with new ideas & producing new products for the Fiero owners.

This just isn't right....... this topic is posted on all 3 PFF forums (which I thought was against the rules). Bobby has stated that he is going to give some of the profits to Cliff & he has not renounced that.

It's time to think this thru guys...... copying is copying, even if it is endorsed to benifit PFF. I have nothing against Bobby, in fact I like him. BUT this is wrong.

If you were copying something made by Rodney I'll bet this forum would be in an uproar. Even though I dislike WCF, the same standard whould hold true here.

Bobby, you can't build a lasting business by copying the work of other's for a short term profit.

So what's next Bobby, you gonna copy my stuff?

Thanks

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 12-13-2004).]

But when he is offering it for a cheaper price then it can work. They dont have a license against people reproducing someone elses product. He isn't making much of a profit. He is making it so people that dont want to spend $600 on the kit can get it all for $400. I dont think it is wrong, I mean I dont see any WCF people in here wondering what's up or why their stuff is being reproduced. And if you think about it, everyone is making 3800sc Brackets and Mounts for the swap now, no one is getting upset about that for some reason. WCF sells them as well. No matter what it is, I dont see any real profit being gained from this deal. Also I believe he reproduced these so it will fit a smaller sized wheel which isn't directly copying.

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1 of 2: Factory Maroon/Gray 87 GT 5 spd: 2.8L (Best 1/4 mile: 15.57@87mph, 2.0 60ft)
2 of 2: Ferrari Red 88 Formula/4T65EHD: 97 GTP Motor (Best 1/4 mile: 13.704@98mph, 1.938 60ft)

My Website
My CarDomain Site

[This message has been edited by Rare87GT (edited 12-13-2004).]

Archie,

I agree with your statement, but before calling the kettle black, isn't the brake kit your selling a copy of someone elses?

Just a observation, I appologize if I'm wrong.

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Earl Rice
87 T-Top GT
5 Spd
11.25" Brakes
3400 Gen III Turbo in progress

quote Originally posted by FieroGT87: Archie, I agree with your statement, but before calling the kettle black, isn't the brake kit your selling a copy of someone elses? Just a observation, I appologize if I'm wrong.

Yes it is. However Walt Zettner published the drawing & specs years ago in the Club newsletter out of Texas and stated that it was ok to make copies.

Archie

quote Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY: It not really going to be the same as WCF's brake upgrade I am tring to make them so a 15" wheel will fit and at the least a 16" wheel.

Archie, I would agree with you 100% if all Bobby was doing was to buy a WCF brake kit and trace it onto a sheet of paper and copy it. From what I understand his machinist is going to create a new design all on his own.

WCF can't copyright the IDEA of relocating the 88 calipers and redrilling the corvette rotors. That is a basic idea that anybody can do on his or her own. All Bobby is doing is providing people access to a machinist who coincidently can make them cheaper than WCF.

Archie,

True it does say that in the directions I downloaded a few years back, fair enough.

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Earl Rice
87 T-Top GT
5 Spd
11.25" Brakes
3400 Gen III Turbo in progress

quote Originally posted by Rare87GT: But when he is offering it for a cheaper price then it can work. They dont have a license against people reproducing someone elses product. He isn't making much of a profit. He is making it so people that dont want to spend $600 on the kit can get it all for $400. I dont think it is wrong, I mean I dont see any WCF people in here wondering what's up or why their stuff is being reproduced. And if you think about it, everyone is making 3800sc Brackets and Mounts for the swap now, no one is getting upset about that for some reason. WCF sells them as well. No matter what it is, I dont see any real profit being gained from this deal. Also I believe he reproduced these so it will fit a smaller sized wheel which isn't directly copying.

That's right WCF probally don't have a patent on the product. However what I'm saying is that it's not right to copy someone elses' work & it discourages that vendor & other vendors from inventing new things for the Fiero owners.

As far as making it fit a smaller wheel. You can only move the caliper just so close to the rotor centerline before the rotor bottoms out in the caliper. I submit that the only reason He stated he was going to do that was to aviod the question as to wether he was copying WCF's brakes. Since he made that statement about making it fit a smaller wheel, he has solicited people to send him $$$ dozens of times and only mentioned the 15" wheel thing once.

If & when Bobby ever invents something of his own for the Fiero, I wonder how he will feel about someone building a business on copying it. & how he will feel about inventing something else for the Fiero after he has been copied once.

Archie

Archie, Archie, Archie....Did I say one time I made a copy of West Coasts brake upgrade? NO
Did I ever buy there upgrade to learn from it or copy it? NO
Is my upgrade different then theres and do I feel I designed mine to be stronger? YES
Did I steal am idea from them, I would have to say I made an idea better!!!!
Just like your body kit, did you design it? NO
Are you making it and selling it for a large profit? YES
So where in the hell is this coming from?
I have talked to you a few times and you know we both have a love for cars, that is all I was doing! I just bought an 88 Coupe to install my Northstar in and I am looking to improve it, period!!!!!
I guess me installing my Northstar I should pay Will and WCapmen money so I can do it since they are the two that have not any talked me into doing this swap but have helped me when I have had questions?
I have friends down here that made this possible, I have been completly upfront with everyone on here from day one!
I have talked to Cliff about giving him some or most of the profits from this and we worked that out, so far there are no profits! I have fronted alot of money for rotors and have lost alot on Paypal fees, almost $100 in fees!

You want to get on here and talk crap like this? Yes crap, I am taking this the same as if I called Ford with a letter they should sue you for the body kit your selling.
Would I do that? NO
I thought we had a friendship-infact I have stuck up for you time and time again, a few of your last sales are guys that have writen me asking about you and I "as a dumb ass supported you with your V-8 swap kit", something I am no longer going to be able to say anything about!!!!

The only thing I am going to say is your one of the biggest back stabbing assholes I have ever meet!!!! Friends, forget about it!!!

My next project is no longer going to be a brake upgrade for the 84 to 87 Fiero's, its going to be a real V-8 swap kit!!!!!! And good luck keeping up with my prices with my friends and I around here!

By the way, I should have sent this as a PM to him so you all didn't have to be put through this. But then again I do not back down!!!

Cliff, have we talked about working out a deal after this is over, did you not e-mail me an address to send the money to?

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

Archie, I saw absolutely no problem with what GSXRBOBBY is doing here. Taking a general idea, but making it better AND cheaper is not ripping off anyone. It's hard to claim it's a knock-off when every part is custom machined, not copied exactly as you make it sound.

I have had nothing but respect for you and your products, but I think you may be out of line here.

[This message has been edited by 88gtNewb (edited 12-13-2004).]

gotta throw in just .02 worth. anyone who makes something for sale with the idea of profit should know that it can and will be either copied or made similar with the idea of competition in mind. I am no expert on patents but I thought I have heard that there is a time limit to help the designer get some profits from his/her idea and then after the time limit is up it's fair game? I do feel that an apology from Archie is in order (just my opinion from how I read the post.)

I say make what you want and can sell. People have nothing to do but bash people trying to help out on saving some money. It doesn't matter what it is, someone has to chime in and say it is wrong. Archie can I ask a respectable question for once, what would happen if someone came into the Fiero business, marketed a V8 swap kit with all the brackets and necessary parts for the conversion at a cheaper price. I mean realistically there is nothing you can do but hope your cusomters come back. That's the same thing Bobby is doing, if people like his work then they can continue to buy things from him or go back to WCF. Its a pretty simple process.

I think somebody might be a little worried about what might happen to their own bussiness . Seeing that someone has found a cheap source for making specialty parts. I have to agree with everyone else, Bobby is just trying to make a product for the Fiero community at a more affordable price. The good thing about this is that it is not a business for him, so no worries(like others) about it going under or others being cheaper.

Thanks for the support guys, I guess if I could use a sewing machine I would just be taking away from Mr Mikes and he would be yelling, oh thats right hes not an a$$!!!

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread

quote Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY: So where in the hell is this coming from? You want to get on here and talk crap like this? Yes crap, The only thing I am going to say is your one of the biggest back stabbing assholes I have ever meet!!!! Friends, forget about it!!!

It's a shame that you decide to respond with name calling.

If you know anything about me, you know that I am against copying the products of others.

First let me answer your questions........

[/QUOTE]

quote Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY: Archie, Archie, Archie....Did I say one time I made a copy of West Coasts brake upgrade? NO Did I ever buy there upgrade to learn from it or copy it? NO

I never said you bought parts from WCF to copy them..... but here's what you said. on 9-19-04

quote Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY: I have the brackets needed to install the 12" Corvette rotors on the 88's Fiero. I am going to have extra made up soon

on 9-20-04 You also said......

quote I have a set and I was just going to make an extra set for me but then I thought I would just help everyone else out and make extras, plus it would help bring down the cost for me a little, that way everyone wins, RIGHT?

WRONG!!!!!! For all the same reasons I stated in my original post in this thread.

quote Is my upgrade different then theres and do I feel I designed mine to be stronger? YES Did I steal am idea from them, I would have to say I made an idea better!!!!

What you said was that you were going to make the brackets 1/16" thicker & you were going to try to make it fit a 15" wheel. However you have went right ahead producing the parts without any follow up on even prototyping the 1/16" thicker part to see if it will fit correctly. And about the 15" wheel thing, you stated on 11-20-04

quote Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY: Mine was designed to fit under at least a 16" wheel, I am hoping under a 15" wheel but then again that was not my goal when the bracket was made.

So essentually, if we take you at your word, you've made one bracket 1/16" thicker & you're claiming that you haven't copied their parts.

Additionally I'd note that in your various threads you've used the reference to WCF more than 80 times & have only referenced you're improvements to the design 3 or 4 times. And never any follow-up or pictures of your design improvements. Explaining why they are better & how you prototyped & proved out those features.

quote Just like your body kit, did you design it? NO Are you making it and selling it for a large profit? YES

FYI, Ford doesn't hold the rights to the term GT40 & they do not have any design patents on that car. Also, they have never modified the understructure of that body to fit a Fiero chassis.

Furthermore, anyone who reads thru your various threads on this subject, can come to the conclusion that your talk of modifing the WCF parts to your own design is a ploy to set about copying their parts while trying to avoid the criticism that I've made. That is evidenced by your lack of engineering follow up to prove out your design changes if any.

quote Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY: My next project is no longer going to be a brake upgrade for the 84 to 87 Fiero's, its going to be a real V-8 swap kit!!!!!! And good luck keeping up with my prices with my friends and I around here!

You're more than welcome to design your own kit to put a SBC into a Fiero. However, try to do it without copying my parts. Everyone knows that your roommate has a couple of my V-8 kits & I'd suspect that you've been looking for a way to find a plausible excuse to make copies of those parts to sell in your next "Group Copy" thread. So the challenge in doing your V-8 kit will be to actually do your own design & not just make 1 or 2 of my parts thicker or thinner.

Start with a fresh pc. of paper and design your own V-8 kit.

Sorry if this upsets your Apple cart. But you know in your Heart that your so called design is but a copy of someone elses' work.

A lot of PFF'ers have jumped on this group buy as you call it. Many of them jumped on back when you said that you were designing a new kit for this application. You remember, back when you said they were going to be stronger & better than what WCF offered. Back when you said they were going to fit 15" wheels. But then you went into making pre-production parts & getting quotes on making parts before you even test fitted YOUR parts on an '88 car. Even to this day you haven't even tried a 15" wheel on a car with your pcs. So those things you said about 15" wheels were a method you used to avoid questions about copying while you got this thing rolling and got otherwise good people on board. I wonder how many of those people would have got on board if they had known in advance that changing the thickness of one part by 1/16" was all you had to differentiate your design from the WCF parts.

Thanks for listening.

Archie

Archie first things first, if this was upsetting you so much why didn't you just call me, PM me or e-mail from the start and say something then?
Does it upset you that I don't have to write on here every little thing, and that people on here trust me!
"When I say something, these people here know I am telling the truth"

The only reason I have said anything about WCF is they are the only ones I knew that made a good brake upgrade package out there! Using them as a reference point doesn't mean I copied there products.

As far as the 15" wheel, the only reason I am not sure if they fit is I do not have a 15" wheel here?!?!
Did you know that, NO you just assume things or just flat out make stuff up!

And as far as answering questions, I get around 10 or so e-mails a day with them asking specs and other questions. Did you ever think that maybe I have everyones e-mail address and we have been talking that way when they do have questions?
Do I need to repeat myself over and over again?

As far as the friend you brought up, he is the one that helped me from the start! Other then me adding he doesn't have a brake upgrade on his car! Let leave him out of this, you and him may still be friends!

Anything else Archie, what else did I do wrong?

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Bobby from NW Indiana
93 Northstar and 5 speed Getrag
thespeedshop@sbcglobal.net
My build thread