quote Personally I think it sucks that someone who has been on the forum for as long as he has and obviously enjoys it has to leave. Apparently you dont. A bit calous of you to make jokes about it dont you think? Especially when he obviously has a decent rating, which i inturpret as someone whos is liked/contributed here. I have bought parts from him and they were top notch. Real uncool way to respond to someone leaving who did not have anything bad to say. Im sure i will get banned or get a glowing Red Bar for my opinion, but i feel you deserve the "-" rating i am giving you.

Oh great.

Well, good to know all this hard work is appreciated so much. It's also good to know some people don't even give it a chance or wait until everything is finalized. Well, tell you what. It's 3:23 f------ am here and I just lost all the will to make anymore changes.

Go give me all the negatives you want, I couldn't care less. If this is the reaction you get trying to please people then, hell, I've really got no clue what I'm doing this for.

Closing all editors now, I'm off to bed. For those of you that don't like it, and feel you have to leave because of the new colors: bye. Nice meeting you.

Yes. I'm pissed now.

[This message has been edited by Cliff Pennock (edited 01-13-2004).]

Definately like the darker quote boxes, Cliff!!

Nick

If you are having trouble reading it try turning up the brightness on your monitor. It just worked for me

'

[This message has been edited by 454Fiero (edited 04-12-2004).]

WOw it looks great!!

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For those that are having a real problem with the new color scheme there is a feature in internet Explorer that allows you to ignore the color scheme of the web and even apply your own stlye sheet. I don't recommend it, but just pointing out that it is there.

Personally I am having a hard time adjusting to the new colors, I find that white letters on dark backgrounds are harder on the eyes. For about 500 years humans have been writing black letters on white paper and it's hard to change that overnight.

I ask you this 454Fiero, whats getting you bent all out of shape? Seems you've never heard of a thing called sarcasm.

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"We're sorry, but the recipient you've entered does not wish to receive private/instant messages from you"

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[This message has been edited by 454Fiero (edited 04-12-2004).]

I dont want this to get ugly guys. I did not want an arguement out of this. I like the changes to the forum and think it looks bada$$. it just hurts my eyes and head when i read it. I was not trying to complain about the color change and realize that change is needed and that it doesnt always agree with everyone. I am trying sunglasses which seems to help a little, but makes it almost impossible to read the darker text.

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-Monkey

The control A thing does work well! I'll try doing that and see how it goes (it is a lot faster than trying to highlight the page every time I move it). Looking around here for a pair of sunglasses to try that one too.

Sorry Cliff if I was complaining. This is your house, you have the right to make it in any format that you wish. It is up to us to adjust to your place, not your responsibility to adjust to us.

quote Originally posted by skitime: Sorry I don't like the dark words on dark background. Example the topics I have already choosen are too dark for weak eyes.

I'll second that - the colors are nice, but the text is lacking in contrast in some areas. Fix that up and it'll be great!

quote Originally posted by 454Fiero: Might want to ask Cliff why he is pissed off. Apparently you didnt notice...

What in the hell is the matter with you?
Cliff is doing this for us. He has spent countless hours and dollars on this place for us. This is his baby, and has a right to feel proud of it.

Let’s say you spend weeks finding a really expensive shirt as a gift for some one you care about.
You give it to them and they say, “god, what an ugly color. I think I’ll soak it in grease and give it to my dog as a chew toy.”
I would expect that you would feel hurt, and turn that hurt in to anger.
It’s human nature.
Nobody likes to hear people say that there’s something they dislike about their baby.

I’m not defending Cliff, I’m reminding you of a human trait.

I really like the new colors. I'm almost 40, have an older monitor, and I have no problem with reading the forums. The color change is refreshing, and I prefer this color set.

Thank you, Cliff. There are many of us who appreciate your work.

Mark

quote Originally posted by FieroMonkey: I am trying sunglasses which seems to help a little, but makes it almost impossible to read the darker text.

When I was at work today I was having a very hard time reading stuff and some text didn’t even appear. Like the “thank you buddycraigg for posting blah, blah, blah”
I couldn’t see it at all.
the only text I could see on that page was the “click here if you don’t want to wait anymore” part.

I was movin’ my head around like a goose, between fighting with the dark text and the glare from the florescent lights. I must have looked like a chicken to my co workers.

I am normally on here 2 to 3 hours a day. I haven’t had too much time on here tonight as I was trying to adopt another dog (that a story I’ll have to tell in a different thread)
Anyway, I haven’t had any problems with a headache yet. But my eyes do feel kinda funny. And I’m use to looking at a computer screen about 10 hours a day.

Donate for the cause and then you might have a lil more say so in the design in the forum. Untill then Enjoy the wonderful lil world Cliff built to bring us all together. We can't rag him and moan and groan about updating the old and trying something new. If this applyed to our cars you can imagine how boring they all would be.

We mod our cars because we can. Cliff mods the forum cause he can.. Its all trial and error. You get where I'm going with all this. You can't tell me if this was your forum you would leave it tottaly alone for years upon years. I give Cliff mad props for trying new formats. we just have to work together to clear out all the bugs. Not thorw our hands up and X PFF forever over some earthtones clashing. Well enough rambling.. I for one love it. and can live with it!

BTW this is coming from a non donator, but one day I will.. I swear!! My Fiero paypal went all to Wheatstock this month.. LOL! BTW Come on people don't miss out signup soon for the Road course!! Thanks

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Remember, always brush your milk, drink your teeth, dont do sleep and get eight hours of drugs.

quote Originally posted by skitime: Sorry I don't like the dark words on dark background. Example the topics I have already choosen are too dark for weak eyes.

quote Originally posted by Whuffo: I'll second that - the colors are nice, but the text is lacking in contrast in some areas. Fix that up and it'll be great!

Skitime, it must have something to do with the system you are on or the monitor you have or the color count you have in the settings.
i had the same problem at work but it's fine at home.

and Whuffo, dito while i was at work, but it's fine at home.

work is a 95 box running IE5.5
home is 2000pro IE6.0

For those who might be having trouble reading the way things are right now, if you use Netscape its fairly simple to change to black/white.

Edit -> Preferences -> Appearance -> Colors

Select "Use my chosen colors, ignoring the colors and background image specified"

IE I had a look, but couldn't figure out a way to override the colour scheme.

That being said, I like the new look. Don't let the negativity get in your way of doing what you want to do to make this a better place. Just take it as constructive criticism. I dunno about people handing out negatives for changing colours, but hey, if thats how you want to use the rating system, go for it.

Brad

quote Originally posted by sqoach: I think this is the main "problem." I think a not-so-bright color would work a little better on the darker background. Just my opinion. I love the look overall.

About contrast.
(god this will be my third post in about 10 minutes in the same thread)
I look at a computer screen for 8 hours at work and then come home for more of it.
At work I spend 1/2 of the time looking at a graphical parts catalog, the other is spent in a "DOS looking screen" with a deep blue back ground and mild grey text.

Just about every person at every dealership and every parts store in america uses a setup like my “DOS looking screen”, light text on a darker background.

Maybe the contrast of white text and dark background is just a bit too much.

FOR CLIFF:

I am a graphic/web designer myself and have a few suggestions for your new color scheme.

1. The colors look great, but as some have pointed out there is a problem with text vs background contrast
IMO you could solve this in one of two ways or both. You already mentioned one of these.

Make the text a light pastel blue or possible a light grey so that the contrast between the text and background boxes isn't so dramatic.

....Or lighten the background box colors a tiny bit by removing some of the actual color to give it a more muted blue/grey color. This would also remove some of the contrast. It seems that the lighter greyish blue reads better than the dark teal does. A muted dark teal would read just as good, and you should be able to keep the contrast between replies that you created using the two different colors.

2. The black text boxes with white text in the reply section is VERY cool looking, but falls victim to the contrast problem again. It seems you are stuck between modern exciting web design and traditional functional information presentation design. As already stated, form over function vs function over form.

IMO I would just reverse back to black text on white BG, or I would go with a very muted grey BG with black text. Or just leave it, afterall it is pretty cool. Kind of like DOS Meets the matrix...

3. The orange links look good, the only issue I see is that they seem to take precedent over the text. I know this is intentional as they are links and are being called out. I think this might just take some gettimg used to because we are all trained like monkeys to recognize bright blue as link color. If it still calls to much attention to your eyes in a few days you might want to mute it down a little bit.

4. The old pastel bright blue/purple (periwinkle) that is still on the right side of the post/topic listing is calling out attention more than the orange topics on the dark teal background. I know this isn't intentional because we are all looking for topics first then looking at when and who next usually. The orange on dark teal looks great, but the birght blue/purple on the right side of the screen needs to be changed to "yet again" a muted color. Perhaps even the color of the quote boxes or a shade in that family.

5. The purple "click this link to go back to the topic" after you just replied has certianly got to go. It is almost completely invisible. I say pick anything without the bright neon glow in it and you should be golden.

I think overall its a refreshing change that really helps keep the site modern and fresh. Thanks for all the hard work.

[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 01-14-2004).]

quote Originally posted by BtotheB: I dunno about people handing out negatives for changing colours, but hey, if thats how you want to use the rating system, go for it. Brad

nobody has given any "-" for the color change.

OK, I don't know what is up with some of the ppl on here today but it's been a proven fact many times over that light colors on dark backgrounds are EASIER on the eyes than dark on white...

I've learned this from:

-Being a web developer/designer and doing the website for a blind/visually impaired organization.
-Having a couple visually impaired friends that couldnt take notes in new classroms where there were white boards. They had to either have Teacher Aids or keep the chalk boards.

Get new monitors, people!!!

quote Originally posted by 454Fiero: I am however flabbergasted (spelling) that you are missing the whole point of why i gave you a neg.

Maybe I missed something, I assumed this meant he was giving Cliff a negative rating. Not that you'd be able to tell, anyways. I think thats the whole problem here, Cliff's green bar is so bright its hard to read everything else

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: nobody has given any "-" for the color change.

quote Originally posted by FieroAudio: OK, I don't know what is up with some of the ppl on here today but it's been a proven fact many times over that light colors on dark backgrounds are EASIER on the eyes than dark on white... I've learned this from: -Being a web developer/designer and doing the website for a blind/visually impaired organization. -Having a couple visually impaired friends that couldnt take notes in new classroms where there were white boards. They had to either have Teacher Aids or keep the chalk boards. Get new monitors, people!!!

LoL

Not sure how you doing web design makes you an expert on what other people here are seeing. But it seems to me that if ppl actually here on the forum, and not some classroom friends are saying, that the changes here on the forum today are harder on their eyes and not easier then i would say that your proven many times over fact has some questionable results. There is i think a very big difference between visually impared people and people on the forum that have eyes good enough to drive a Fiero with.

I have a 2 week old NEC 17" Flat screen (x-mas gift), although i have no headaches, the color contrasts are harder on my eyes. Guess i need a new moniter eh?

Might want to chill on the get a new moniter thang, unless there is a newer model nec 17" that cropped up in the last two weeks or so that i am unaware of. Looks the same on my princeton 19" as well.

[This message has been edited by Car Michael (edited 01-14-2004).]

quote Originally posted by jscott1: Personally I am having a hard time adjusting to the new colors, I find that white letters on dark backgrounds are harder on the eyes. For about 500 years humans have been writing black letters on white paper and it's hard to change that overnight.

Studies have been done over this, and many of them say that light text on a dark background is better for your eyes. But hey if you want to keep doing it the way it has been done for 500 years, . I think the cost of ink is why books were and are printed light back/dark fore.

I am a software developer for a living and I am kind of biased I guess. I spend almost 100% of my work time in front of a computer and I tell you editing code for 10+ hours a day with a white background will give you burn in. I used to be driving home almost blind and not be able to see at night. I switched to a dark background for all of my editing and it is much easier on my eyes. This is how I edit code all day.

I love the new scheme and I hope Cliff keeps it.

--Will

Just wanted to say that although I don't prefer the new style, I am by no means upset by it, as some seem to be. I didn't mean to sound the least bit unappreciative, and I hope *I* never seemed that way. For a long time I've had a saying I like to remind myself of when I spend a lot of time on something and a select group of people give me crap about it...it goes something like this:

F*** 'em

You can add to it if you want, but two words repeated about a half dozen times seems to work quite well for me. Perhaps there are a couple bastards giving you a ration of crap, Cliff, but hopefully you will see past that and recognize that an overwhelming percentage of the people like the new design better. Hopefully I'll feel the same after a couple weeks or something.

Bryce
88 GT

Cliff,

I really like the colors you chose for the site. The older ones really showed the "age" of the site, and This is great step in a new direction

Edit: If you are using a decent browser (mozilla, netscape7, opera, Firebird) You are able to speficy a "style sheet" . That means if you really wanted to, you could change the colors back to the way it was, or have it black and white, etc. Opera has the easiest interface for that.

James Z

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[This message has been edited by SplineZ (edited 01-14-2004).]

I happen to like the dark background ALLOT and have ALWAYS been a fan of them!

HEY CLIFF Tell you this much... People will ALWAYS be unapreciative when it comes to change... some people just dont like it. It is the way of the world, unfortunalty. No matter HOW much time or energy or FIGHT someone can put into somthing there will ALWAYS be someone to call it; a waste, junk, a joke, garbage, stupid, or latley - RICE. Sad to see when someone puts in so much work that people have to trash on it. Specially if they would stop and REALIZE exactly HOW MUCH work it takes to code, edit, fix, re-engineer, and modify the code and settings to make such a LARGE CHANGE! You are the ONE and ONLY moderator for us all and you do EVERYTHING... These people need to just jump off a big ****ing bridge if they arent willing to give all this work and all this sacrifice you have given to us a decent damn chance!
I THANK YOU for all the work you have put into this site for us all... PLEASE dont get flustered by the opinions of PEONS!

TO those of you who would down Cliff... **** YOU ALL... he has given us so very much and we give him nothing in return. Those of you who may down him and his work are selfish, disrespectfull little kids who cant apreciate ANYTHING! You can give me a - for that i could give a **** ... but when a man puts ALL THIS work into somthing you have NO GOD DAMN RIGHT to stomp on HIM or stuff he has given us... DAMN this makes me SOOOOOOOO SOOOOOO ****ING ANGRY!!! I have not been this upset over somthing in a LONG TIME MY GOD!

I love the new site, and appreciate/respect the time you devote to it. Just like every modified Fiero on this forum, there are a few that will never like what you have done. Cliff, I hope you take criticism with a grain of salt and keep your cool (even though you have every right to get pissed about whatever). I'm just saying that it should take a lot more to demotivate you. You scare us when people rub you the wrong way in fear that you'll format the server and find another use for it.

I paypaled you $25. Probably not enough to motivate you that much, but thanks for the space and the effort! The new design looks wicked!

Sincerely,
Greg

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L67, FieroX Valve Covers, 180 Degree Stat, 4T65E-HD, Intense LSD, Intense Shift Kit, Tranny Cooler, Stage 4 ZZP Intake + Blower, XP-Hot Cam, DUB 3.0-3.25", Gator Belts, Custom DHP, MSD DIS-4, CAI, TB Spacer, WCF Headers, EGR Delete, Borla Exhaust, Held Motorsports Front Slalom Racing Suspension, Coilovers, 12" Wilwood Brakes, 88 Rear Cradle (POR-15), and POWER STEERING!

I think it looks great!. I spend all day in my profession straining my eyes, this is so much better! I say if its hard to read for some people, it will give them more time to work on there Fiero! And I guess if I did not like it, I would not have the balls to complain to a man who spends all of his time, effort, and money making this site for strangers If I was Cliff, I would pull the plug for awhile so I wouldnt have to hear it!

I don't know about art, I only know what I like, And I like the old format better. Much easier on old eyes. I greatly appreciate everything Cliff does for the Fiero community but I would rather he hadn't on this one.

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Notchbacks RULE

"It's cool to have a car you just have to look back at."

looks better to me. I can see it easier than the last one. Nicely designed :]

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quote Originally posted by 2.8-4spd: If I was Cliff, I would pull the plug for awhile so I wouldnt have to hear it!

please dont talk like that.

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: please dont talk like that.

He wouldn't do that.. He's not the type of person to make everyone suffer cuz of a few asses.

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"As we live on, we lose a little bit more. Shrouded in falsehoods and lies, we stand frozen to the spot, unable to cry out" - Deep Forest

quote Originally posted by DotTC: He wouldn't do that.. He's not the type of person to make everyone suffer cuz of a few asses.

You haven't been around long enough to make that statement, my friend. The site actually has been shut down before! I think it lasted a day or so, can't remember the specifics.

Bryce
88 GT

I really appriciate the changes Cliff, but am finding myself in the minority of people that are getting headaches. I'm almost certine it's being caused by the huge contrast.

Another forum I visit also uses dark backgrounds, but they are using a darker font. I have never seen anyone complain about eye strain over there. Here is a link to one of their pages.

http://www.ocforums.com/forumdisplay.php?s=f3802c86a23f81cb04f98d5c899bd70a&forumid=20

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: maybe not... a frenchman, an american, and a lawyer walk into a bar... the bartender says, "what is this, a joke?"

i'm hurt that no one thought my joke was funny

quote Originally posted by buddycraigg: i'm hurt that no one thought my joke was funny

Because I did hear it before.

Anyways, let me explain why I'm so p'd off at some people (yes, after a whopping 5 hours of sleep, I'm still a bit angry).

First of all, I've spent about 6 weeks modifying the software so I can easily change the looks of the forum. It took so long because I could only do it in very small steps, as to make sure I wouldn't mess up things so the forum wouldn't run anymore. Change (in style) was needed, as mentioned numerous times in several threads. I've tested it as much as I can, but I knew I would overlook small things here and there. I knew the final testing would come when I actually make the switch. So yesterday I did. I noticed right away that some colors didn't work as well as expected. Like the bright white text on the dark blue/green background. And as people pointed out, I forgot to change the colors here and there.

No problem, I'll listen what people have to tell me and make the changes. I've been slightly changing colors and making adjustments to the software all day long yesterday (started at around 11am and stopped 15 hours later).

Some people were downright rude about the new style. It was expected not everybody would like the new colors (it was the same when I changed from the original forum colors to grayshades, and again when I changed from grayshades to the lightblue scheme).

Then somebody comes along and says something along the lines of "well, the new colors are giving me a headache, so I will no longer visit the forum. Bye all, it's been nice knowing you". Yes, I think that's indredibly rude. Especially when all during this thread I've been making changes so as many people as possible feel comfortable with the new scheme. It would have been a whole different story if he said something like: "Cliff, the new colors are giving me a headache, is it possible you change it a bit?". But, since everyone is entitled to his own opinion, I answer with: "you leave the forum over colors? Now I've seen it all". Even added a smiley, hoping people would understand the reference I'm making to a few other threads where we discussed why some people left the forum.

Then someone else comes along, 45 posts new, who accuses me of not caring! Even thinks that's enough reason to give me a negative for it! Excuse me? All I've been doing in those past 15 hours was trying to chance the colors so everybody would feel as comfortable as possible with it! That pisses me off big time!

And then there's that other guy (you know who you are) who is being downright rude about the change. Yes, I know you don't like it. Live with it! I will not change it back just because you don't like it!

To all others who have been making suggestions and do understand I can't do everything all at once: thanks! I will fine-tune the colors during the coming days. I know where the weak points are.

It looks like most people like the new look. With 8,000 people registered how can you please all at once? Yes, there are minor glitches (the blue ratings number, for example) but what are the complainers suggesting as an improvement or are they just compalining about the change?

I like it very much.

Thank you Cliff

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1988 Coupe
327 v8