All I would ever expect a fiero transmission to run at the track is a 1.9 or a 2.0 60'. I have too much experience running 1.7's and breaking diffs. My auto runs low 1.8's and I know its straining, and wheel hoping, and I know that it will easily handle faster 60's than the manual trans.
Possible does not mean practical. Next time quote my entire statement, I clearly said it was a matter of reliability and not actual gearing/horsepower. I clarified this by saying what I have HANDS ON EXPERIENCE with, oreif just looked around on the internets for his "proof".
edit for this
quote
This has turned into a "Look how smart I am and how stupid you are thread " Grow up kids.
You are not going to get faster than a 1.9 60 and still hope to have a transmission, it just is NOT happening, I have seen more than a few break lets just put it that way.
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon:
a 2.0 launch is plenty respectable for that transmission, your not going to get that any faster anyway, no matter what sort of horsepower your running, so other than that, he ran his car as hard as he could then.
quote
Originally posted by darkhorizon: All I would ever expect a fiero transmission to run at the track is a 1.9 or a 2.0 60'. I have too much experience running 1.7's and breaking diffs. My auto runs low 1.8's and I know its straining, and wheel hoping, and I know that it will easily handle faster 60's than the manual trans.
Possible does not mean practical. Next time quote my entire statement, I clearly said it was a matter of reliability and not actual gearing/horsepower. I clarified this by saying what I have HANDS ON EXPERIENCE with, oreif just looked around on the internets for his "proof".
I am sorry but I could not find any post in this thread where you discuss reliability, gearing, or horsepower with repect to the transaxle.
I did not search the internet, I looked in the 1/4 mile thread for Fiero's with getrag's pulling a faster than 2.0 60' time and noted the member who posted the timeslip. https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/034445.html
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02:32 PM
ryan.hess Member
Posts: 20784 From: Orlando, FL Registered: Dec 2002
Wow the pot has been turned up a bit. Look Chuck and Archie I buy into what you are totally doing with this car and the ones that you build Archie.. The tune and run is very important. Who would take the chance of blowing there motor because they did not test it well enoug. But like you said it does not matter what you type here there are always going to be doubters. And they are wrong about this car 100%. Chuck keep up the good work and you know what. Don't post a dyno sheet and lets see how much more b!tching that they can do. I bet you have them to the point of a heart attack at this point and the stress is killing them. This crap is all that goes on on RFT. Shawnbag is the one that starts the posts and the only responses are from himself because nobody gives a $hit. See you at the next meet.
Great work Chuck! Awesome Car Great work Archie! Great Fabricator Rock on Orif! Just a guy I know
------------------ Fiero Thomas 85 Fiero GT 86 Fiero GT 88 Formula T-Top C+C # 1239 of 1252, Build Digit 26,224 of 26,402 NIFE Member Fiero News dot net
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04:24 PM
MotorTV Member
Posts: 260 From: chicago,il,usa Registered: Nov 2001
Ok, Some people got it, and some will never get it...
If you look at the time slips you will see that the runs were for testing only... As moust of you know i have just completed a major change to the car... It is more then looks... The car now runs on 315/25-19 tires in the rear... This may not sound like a big change , But think of what changes when you move the tire patch out six inches and in three inches.. You have more leverage on the a arms, bushings, links, springs and other components.. This effects the way a car will react under race conditions as well as on the street.. For a stock or mildly warmed over car this is not a big issue.. For higher hp cars this becomes a very big issue.. For the people that want to get thet last 10 percent , this is why you test under controlled conditions... This is how the runs went and why.... The first thing to look at is the 60 foot time.. This shows that this is not a hard launch... The reason for this and no burnout (not shown on time slip) it to keep the tires as slick as possible... At 100 feet or so out the VHT thins out and the test starts... A hard hit in second gear to 6000 rpm followed by a short hit in third, then letting conpleatly off the gas without putting the clutch in... Test ends, drive to end of track at a safe speed to get out of the way of other racers testing... Sounds kinda strange doesn't it... This test is very common for a new setup... The reason not to do a blast run is to test at a sane speed if somthing goes wrong ... plenty of time for blasting on race day... If you have any problems at a 2-3 run they will only get worse at higher speeds.. Here is what i am looking at.. Does the car go straight or pitch when forward loaded? Suspension or cradle flex causes this Can you feel any twist in the steering wheel? one wheel biting harder then the other causes this Does the car squat too much? Spring rate and shock dampening rates Does the car squat too little? See above Does front end feel to light? Suspension setup Does front end feel to heavy? See above Does it lean over to one side? Tires not tracking corectly
The most importent thing to look for when backing off the gas is snap steer... All the parts unload at once and load in the other direction...
Gee.. Lots of things going on in a little time... This is a little diferent then what the mash the gas and go guys do... You are not looking for a bullet run, this is testing a new setup... Hence the name "Test and tune day" Only one step of many to go that last ten percent... Chuck
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07:07 PM
ducattiman Member
Posts: 674 From: TheNetherlands Registered: Mar 2003
My car doesnt do any of those things, and I run high 12's.
Ok, you may disagree with the man and how he is engaging you or whatever, but that comment has absolutely no value. it is merely calling bs on something he clearly is thinking through quite a lot. Whether you think he is right or not, isn't the point, that was just an ass comment.
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11:00 PM
PFF
System Bot
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
My car doesnt do any of those things, and I run high 12's.
You run high 12s going for broke. He runs high 12s coasting for 1/8th of a mile.
Besides, there's faster cars out there. There's ALWAYS someone faster. This isn't about them - or YOU. It's about Chuck, his car, and his methods. He didn't tell you how to setup your car, so kindly STFU and let him tell us how he does his.
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11:07 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
My car doesnt do any of those things, and I run high 12's.
I think you missed the point. It isn't that his car does or does not do those things, But rather he did not know if the car did any of those and he needed to check it out under a controlled test/run.
Your car may not do any of the things Chuck listed, but didn't you state above that on your auto running low 1.8's was straining and wheel hopping? Wheel hopping is when the torque is fighting the suspension which is trying to keep the tires on the ground to gain traction. If you were to modify your suspension and reduced the wheel hopping you would then reduce the shock loading on the trans and axles. For discussion sake, Let's say you were to add nitrous to your car. You would effectively increase power and torque. With the greater increase in torque, You are going to increase the force of the wheel hop the car already has. This would put more strain on the transaxle which would most likely kill it quickly. Now modify the suspension and do a few "tune" runs to get the feel of how much gas (and clutch if it was a manual) to give it at the launch. (which will change with increased power.) This will then reduce the wheel hop resulting in a smoother and quicker launch giving you a better 60' time and turning a faster 1/4 mile time. Also with the wheel hop reduced, you would now be able to put more power thru the transaxle and to the ground.
[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 09-29-2007).]
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11:50 PM
Sep 29th, 2007
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
I dont understand why you are pointing this crap out to me? Why do you think i dont remember what I say?
oreif, why would I post that I wheel hopped if I didnt know what it is? Congrats your schooling me on what my car does.... Unfortunatly there is almost nothing you can do at the track anyway to dial wheel hop on or off, and you know it. In my case it was track conditions, as it promptly cleared up after my run with wheel hop, but my times didnt get faster because I was fighting to find a threshold to launch at, that I never found.
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02:12 AM
MotorTV Member
Posts: 260 From: chicago,il,usa Registered: Nov 2001
I dont understand why you are pointing this crap out to me? Why do you think i dont remember what I say?
oreif, why would I post that I wheel hopped if I didnt know what it is? Congrats your schooling me on what my car does.... Unfortunatly there is almost nothing you can do at the track anyway to dial wheel hop on or off, and you know it. In my case it was track conditions, as it promptly cleared up after my run with wheel hop, but my times didnt get faster because I was fighting to find a threshold to launch at, that I never found.
Track conditions have little to do with wheel hop... Here is a few tips that may help you out... For a 12 sec car , the first thing to do is to replace the rear struts... They most likley are worn out... Wheel hop is caused by too much squat on the launch or wornout suspension components... If you have coilover rear struts, you can try giving the spring ajusters a turn or two down to add more preload... I hope this gives you some insite at what to look for to solve the problem... Chuck
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08:24 AM
Oreif Member
Posts: 16460 From: Schaumburg, IL Registered: Jan 2000
Unfortunatly there is almost nothing you can do at the track anyway to dial wheel hop on or off, and you know it. In my case it was track conditions, as it promptly cleared up after my run with wheel hop, but my times didnt get faster because I was fighting to find a threshold to launch at, that I never found.
You are correct that once at the track you cannot dial wheel hop on or off. The point is you went to the track, made a few runs, and now you know that something needs to be done to reduce wheel hop on your car. That is the reason of a "Test and Tune" night and why Chuck did some test runs.
WOW! after all of the friendly literary hand shaking I've read I'm afraid to ask but here goes, can someone provide me with a link to pictures of the car? I thought about a turbo V8 Fiero but let go of the idea a long time ago but would still like to see one.
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10:12 AM
motoracer838 Member
Posts: 3751 From: Edgewater Co. USofA Registered: Jan 2006
Originally posted by darkhorizon: motortunerTVakimoto
Wow, just wow. In the cheap shot insult of the year award, we have a winner or is that LOOSER, That was uncalled for, unnecasary, and just plain unjustifed!!! What a hypacrite, In one post your telling Archie to stop insulting people and in a latter post you throw down the worst insult Iv'e seen here in years, take your homebrew 3800sc and do 12's all day for all I care, Chuck is taking a methodical approch to going much faster and I'm sure he'll get there safely.
Chuck Keep up the good work!
BTW Dark, that insult has gotten you at least one nice red neg.
When things go wrong, don't follow them. Joe
[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 09-29-2007).]
I dont understand why you are pointing this crap out to me? Why do you think i dont remember what I say?
oreif, why would I post that I wheel hopped if I didnt know what it is? Congrats your schooling me on what my car does.... Unfortunatly there is almost nothing you can do at the track anyway to dial wheel hop on or off, and you know it. In my case it was track conditions, as it promptly cleared up after my run with wheel hop, but my times didnt get faster because I was fighting to find a threshold to launch at, that I never found.
There's a lot of attacking going on in this thread, but the two posts you referred to in this post weren't aggressive, attacking, or caustic. Actually they were quite calm and seemed to be only advice, stop arguing for arguments sake.
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12:38 PM
PFF
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hatchetrider84 Member
Posts: 222 From: Orangevale, CA, USA Registered: Jun 2005
There's a lot of attacking going on in this thread, but the two posts you referred to in this post weren't aggressive, attacking, or caustic. Actually they were quite calm and seemed to be only advice, stop arguing for arguments sake.
Don't throw water on this thread!
Gasoline, get your gasoline here! (stated in baseball game peanut vendor voice)
Hey buddy, you got a match?
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08:51 PM
Sep 30th, 2007
CowsPatoot Member
Posts: 2792 From: Skidway Lake, MI Registered: May 2007
Why was this thread even created? Its tinder for a flame fest. A few time slips which are not especially fast off the line or trap speed. Can't see what you learned except your brief time spent at WOT in the 1/8 mile.
Need a dyno and real time slips for people to respect the car. A turbo 383 LT1 should be able to make big power, why not prove it?
I can't see the function or practicality of a "700+hp" fiero. Can't use the power, especially with a super high torque turbo 383. Going to have a hard time keeping a drivetrain in that thing.
I'm not flaming you. There have been many other threads with people claiming big numbers on a dyno or the strip with no proof that have also ended up badly.
I can't see the function or practicality of a "700+hp" fiero. Can't use the power, especially with a super high torque turbo 383. Going to have a hard time keeping a drivetrain in that thing.
X 2
It is a very nice car with the way it looks and the setup that you are running. But after some much HP, then its just wasting money for any other reason besides being able to say my car makes this amount of HP. I mean when making that much HP, there is usually a reason for it, like the 1/4 mile or some type of racing where you are trying to get from point A to point B the fastest. So my question is --What is the purpose of building your 700 HP Fiero?
Like the post I quoted, I am not flaming or trying to start trouble in any way. I like the car and the setup that you are running, well except for the trans.
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12:51 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
how is comparing this guy to someone else the makes big claims and never backs them up with proof an insult that deserves a neg? If the person i compared him to made claims with a 383 instead of whatever junk he talked about, would he get the same defense? It seems that if I tried pulling what motorTV did, then would I get caught in a slew of negs too.
how is comparing this guy to someone else the makes big claims and never backs them up with proof an insult that deserves a neg? If the person i compared him to made claims with a 383 instead of whatever junk he talked about, would he get the same defense? It seems that if I tried pulling what motorTV did, then would I get caught in a slew of negs too.
Its the way you are comparing this guy to someone else. Its the whole tone/way you go about it and then with your post from other Threads, it all builds up. I used to call people out and have fun with it but in the end, nothing came of it. Let people claim what they want, do what they want and say what they want, its not going to hurt you in anyway. If its true, then great, if its not, then who cares.
I still dont see the point to this Thread myself being it doesnt matter if the car makes 200 HP or 700 HP. To me it almost looks like it was started to start a flame Thread but then again, doesnt really matter. Its a nice car with what looks to be a high HP setup in it that could possibly be fast but no one will really know until its taken down the strip with a purpose.
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03:31 PM
PFF
System Bot
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Let people claim what they want, do what they want and say what they want, its not going to hurt you in anyway. If its true, then great, if its not, then who cares.
This is the only forum I belong to where you can get away with this. I'm not sure why people put up with it. If you say your car makes X amount of power, be prepared to back it up.
My $0.02
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03:34 PM
darkhorizon Member
Posts: 12279 From: Flint Michigan Registered: Jan 2006
O well, we know the rating system is lame anyway, I dont think anyone deserves a neg for trying to converse with someone. Just because they dont agree with me doesnt give grounds for a "warning" against what I am doing. Nothing about this has been a real flame war, the facts are quite clear, my friends act as outside viewers of this thread are they are baffled that this motorTV guy even bothered to post up anything, it was a blatent "bait" for a flame war. Any flame war involving v8's on PFF end it the labeled "V8 hater" with a pile of neg ratings regardless of who makes a better point.
Again, discussion is hardly grounds for neg ratings IMO, the system was in place to self moderated from trolls and users that abuse and flame about things. I dont think I have flamed anyone here, although some point out I have stepped on toes and argued some things, its still within grounds of an adult conversation. Its just really strange set of circumstances to me, the way I see things is as follows. motorTV got called out on what he advertised as a 700HP fiero with a manual trans. He tried defending that "call out" with this thread, which really just confirmed any of the doubts pointed out in the other "call out" thread. The "v8 hater group" including myself pointed this out in this thread, and then the negs flew at me, after he posted why he cant run a decent time at the track, or make it appear that his car is even close to what he claims it is.
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03:46 PM
Formula88 Member
Posts: 53788 From: Raleigh NC Registered: Jan 2001
This is the only forum I belong to where you can get away with this. I'm not sure why people put up with it. If you say your car makes X amount of power, be prepared to back it up.
My $0.02
IIRC, the comment about the horsepower that was being "called out" was not made on the forum. Someone overheard it in person, then started posting about it here. I'm all for people proving their claims. I also understand the difference between a car that is still being dialed in and one that's fully completed and tuned.
I don't know of any forum that's going to follow you around at a show to video tape your conversations with the intent of making you prove it later on the forum. Well, until now, apparently.
Chuck is talking about his methods setting up his car. You don't have to agree with his methods or like it. If you've thrown an engine in a car and decide to wail on it without any shake down runs or tuning, that's your prerogative. Chuck chooses a more methodical approach.
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04:04 PM
ducattiman Member
Posts: 674 From: TheNetherlands Registered: Mar 2003
Why was this thread even created? Its tinder for a flame fest. A few time slips which are not especially fast off the line or trap speed. Can't see what you learned except your brief time spent at WOT in the 1/8 mile.
Take the time to read the thread... the point is well explained... just read it and you might get some insite in what real racers have to go through and why... Chuck
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04:15 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
It is a very nice car with the way it looks and the setup that you are running. But after some much HP, then its just wasting money for any other reason besides being able to say my car makes this amount of HP. I mean when making that much HP, there is usually a reason for it, like the 1/4 mile or some type of racing where you are trying to get from point A to point B the fastest. So my question is --What is the purpose of building your 700 HP Fiero?
Like the post I quoted, I am not flaming or trying to start trouble in any way. I like the car and the setup that you are running, well except for the trans.
This i kinda funny... At no time did i say i was running 700 hp on the street... The trans won't take it... although i have had a six speed ready to go in for some time, it has not been needed... Again , the point of this thread has nothing to do with how much hp or how quick my car is... Chuck
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04:27 PM
crzyone Member
Posts: 3571 From: Alberta, Canada Registered: Dec 2000
Again , the point of this thread has nothing to do with how much hp or how quick my car is... Chuck
There is no point to this thread.
quote
MotorTV Time Slip and Dyno Run
Lets see real times on those slips and some dyno runs.
I really want to see what your car can do, genuinely. If its set up right I imagine it will be stupid fast. I think the car looks good and well put together. I knew from the first post that this thread was going to go south.
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04:32 PM
MotorTV Member
Posts: 260 From: chicago,il,usa Registered: Nov 2001
i guess some people will never understand,i guess thats how the world works
I have made that very same point in this thread... But i keep trying... I hope the info i gave darkhorizon on his wheel hop problem helps him out.. As i am always happy to help... Remember, i did not go into a full tech answer but this should point him in the right direction... Chuck
Edit because i quoted the wrong post...
[This message has been edited by MotorTV (edited 09-30-2007).]
