One report I saw said 50 seats were blocked off. Not sure what the 'assumed' weight of a passenger is, but figure somewhere between 50 and 150lbs. What we do know for sure is the number of reported total people on the plane was 239, including passengers and crew. According to the Malaysian Airlines page, their 777-200 configuration holds 282 passengers: http://www.malaysiaairlines.../boeing-777-200.html If that's the case, that puts the difference at 55 (282 - 227 for just passenger capacity). Pretty much every flight I've been on in recent years the plane has been at or near capacity, with margins being so low.
Last time I flew it was like being in a sardine can, but there would have been more room in one of those. We were packed in like cattle or hogs going to market.
I have to wonder, if maybe Malaysia and Malaysia Air are dragging their feet and spouting all these contradictory statements in an effort to hinder the search until the batteries in the flight/voice boxes goes dead and no longer ping,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I have to wonder, if maybe Malaysia and Malaysia Air are dragging their feet and spouting all these contradictory statements in an effort to hinder the search until the batteries in the flight/voice boxes goes dead and no longer ping,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
maybe. i prefer to think they're merely incompetent.
[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 03-19-2014).]
maybe. i prefer to think they're merely incompetent.
THe most likely answer. But to be fair, if you have never lost a plane before, it is all new... ( tho they could have asked for direct help and not got in the way )
THe most likely answer. But to be fair, if you have never lost a plane before, it is all new... ( tho they could have asked for direct help and not got in the way )
Exactly.
Big ass ocean....and trying to find a plane potentially lost by someone who didn't want it found, and knew what was required to make that happen....the odds are stacked against them. Don't forget the vast number of other countries involved who ALSO can't find the plane.
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 03-19-2014).]
As aircraft and ships continued to search for debris which might be that of the missing flight MH370 on Friday a Malaysian woman on a flight across the Indian Ocean claimed to have seen an aircraft in the water near the Andaman Islands on the day the jet disappeared.
The Kuala Lumpur wife was so convinced about what she saw at 2.30pm on March 8, several hours after MH370 vanished, that she filed an official report with police that very day - a full five days before the search for the plane was expanded to the area around the Andaman Islands.
Im still with the 58% (according to NBC poll) that think the plane is parked somewhere. Whoever took it for whatever reason is not taking care or feeding of 250 people. Whether it did crash, or was taken...the bad news is they are dead. If it was a hostage thing, someone would have said something in 2 weeks. It would take a sizeable force to hold onto 250 people and take care of them. If it was someplace like Iran, they would not tell you they tracked it in their airspace or admit they know where it is.
Ships disappear and leave no evidence. Why would an airplane be different?
I've done a lot of marine search and rescues, even ships and boats usually leave a debris field. However the debris field is much smaller and this is for a simple reason....ships and boats don't impact the water at over 600mph. This speed essentially shreds the plane. Even if the plane was attempting a water landing, they almost always get torn apart. Having the plane broken into lots of small pieces allows all the lighter (buoyant) debris to escape the wreckage and float. When ships and boats sink, the lighter debris is usually contained within...so generally you'll just see debris that was on the deck.
Correct. A destroyed airliner in the water will leave hundreds of floating seat cushions and at least four 30' long floating liferafts. The escape slides are also liferafts when detached and self inflate. Even if punctured and flat, they still float and are reflective aluminum colored. There are tons of composite materials that float...nose and tail cone, wingtips/winglets, interior ceiling and walls.....Thats also not including 250 floating bodies and luggage. The French one that crashed off South America wasnt completely found for 2 years...but they did find a wing and tail floating right away.
I've done a lot of marine search and rescues, even ships and boats usually leave a debris field. However the debris field is much smaller and this is for a simple reason....ships and boats don't impact the water at over 600mph. This speed essentially shreds the plane. .
Even if the pilots stall it right above water surface?
Sully was the only pilot to ever successfully land a passenger jet of that size on water (I may be wrong on that, but from memory, I think that's what I remember being said). Of course, big difference was he was landing on the Hudson not the open ocean (rough water).... If an engine or wing digs in during the landing, the plane inevitably cartwheels and tears apart.
I know how the ocean is. I've seen rudder& screws out of the water and seen it smooth as a mirror and all in between. Crossed the Pacific twice and all over west pac and the Indian Ocean.
Sully may be the only one to have successfully landed a passenger aircraft on the water but that statement has to be tempered with "How many have actually attempted it?"
I know how the ocean is. I've seen rudder& screws out of the water and seen it smooth as a mirror and all in between. Crossed the Pacific twice and all over west pac and the Indian Ocean.
Sully may be the only one to have successfully landed a passenger aircraft on the water but that statement has to be tempered with "How many have actually attempted it?"
Agreed...I don't mean to imply that it isn't possible. Remember there is a little card in the seat pocket in front of you that gives you instructions what to do in the event of a water landing (and I'm flying to Dominican tomorrow...so counting on it's accuracy)....just historically, for all the attempted water landings, Sully is the only successful one. Yes there have been quite a few others that I know about, none were successful with many casualties and planes torn apart.
I too have seen calm water...went across the Atlantic once in a sub...we weren't able to dive due to a mechanical problem...60' seas....damn rough....when we returned across the Atlantic two months later, we were in the middle of the ocean and it was glass....not a ripple...
Is this the new and latest plane, the 777 that had all the battery issue's? It would really suck for Boeing to find out that there new planes really do suck.
With it being 2 weeks now, since it got lost, (was going to say crashed, or was stolen, but lost just seemed a better choice) are the conspiracy people just waiting to say that any crash wreckage is not real, and that the government took a fake plan and blew it out of the sky, just to say they found the missing plane? I mean they would have to fake the bodies, but in those country's how hard would it be to find a couple hundred cadavers and toss into the plane before they blew it up. Maybe its taking this long, because its a hard task to fake dental records and or other misc things before they blow it up, or shoot it down, or fly it into the water at mach 1.
At this point I really believe the plane was taken someplace, passengers killed and the plane will show up later. How hard would it be to take this plane and later shoot down another similar plane, have this one fly in place of it, so it looks like a legit flight plan and then crash it into some place. Clone some transponders and such......
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1955 - March 26, 1955. Pan American Flight 845/26 a four-engined Boeing 377 Stratocruiser named "Clipper United States" had departed Portland International Airport on a flight to Honolulu. The aircraft was 35 miles from the Oregon coast when at 11:12 AM the No. 3 engine and propeller tore loose from the wing causing the aircraft to become almost uncontrollable. The aircraft was ditched and floated for twenty minutes before sinking in 5000 feet of water. After an orderly evacuation the survivors spent two hours aboard rafts and slides before the USS Bayfield arrived on the scene to rescue them.
1956 - April 2, 1956. North West Orient Airlines Flight 2, a Boeing Stratocruiser, ditched into Puget Sound shortly after an 8 AM takeoff from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (Sea-Tac). As the flaps were retracted the aircraft then began rolling to the left and buffeting uncontrollably. Loosing altitude and with little control over their aircraft, they ditched in the 430 foot deep, freezing waters of Puget Sound. Their Mayday was heard by a Coast Guard vessel and an Air Force amphibious Grumman Albatross, both of which raced to assist. The aircraft was landed smoothly but the tail section broke off and it took on water quickly. All aboard departed safely using the seat cushions as flotation devices. The Air Force Grumman landed less than ten minutes after the ditching and launched life rafts. Not all were able to reach them and many remained in the freezing waters until rescued less than thirty minutes later by the Coast Guard vessel. Four passengers and one male flight attendant apparently succumbed to hypothermia and were not recovered. The Stratocruiser sank 15 minutes after the ditching.
1956 - 16 October, 1956. Possibly the most anticipated and documented ditching ever. Pan American Flight 943, another Boeing 377 Stratocruiser "Sovereign of the Skies", enroute from Honolulu to San Francisco ditched in the Pacific. Soon after passing the 'point of no return' (mid ocean) the number 1 engine seized, but the propeller would not feather thus causing excessive drag. With climb power on the remaining three engines, the number four engine began to backfire and power began to drop off. Calculating the additional fuel flow due to drag, the crew determined there was insufficient fuel to reach San Francisco. The plane was flown to Ocean Station November, the U.S. Coast Guard Cutter 'Pontchartrain', and circled there until daylight. Aware of the Pan Am Flight 845/26 incident the year before, in which a 377's tail section had broken off in a water landing, the purser cleared passengers from the back of the plane. At 5:40 AM the cutter laid out a foam path to aid the captain's depth perception. (Determining your actual height above water or desert is very difficult due to the lack of reference).
The plane touched down at 6:15, at 90 knots with full flaps and landing gear retracted.
The tail broke off but all 31 on board survived the ditching.
Life rafts were deployed and all were rescued by the Coast Guard.
The wreckage sank in less than 20 minutes at 6:35.
In October 1963, an Aeroflot Tu124 was on a flight from Estonia to Moscow when a landing gear problem led to a diversion to Leningrad. The aircraft entered holding while the crew sorted out their gear problems. Then, 13 miles from Leningrad airport, the aircraft ran out of fuel. The crew managed to ditch the aircraft on the nearby Neva River, narrowly missing a tugboat which then sped to the floating airplane, cast a line and towed it to shallow waters. All 52 aboard survived.
1966 - On the 4th of February 1966 an All Nippon Airways 727-100 descending to land at Tokyo's Haneda Airport (HND) ditched short of the airport, broke apart and sank with all 133 aboard.
One Of JAL's stretched DC-8's, 'Shiga.' landed 2 miles short of the runway at San Francisco International Airport. The aircraft touched down in water only 8 feet deep, and when the landing gear settled into the mud, the water level was just at the bottom of the passenger doors. So smoothly did the aircraft land on and settle in the water, that many of the passengers accepted it as the expected normal landing. There were no injuries. The aircraft was recovered, repaired, and flown again.
1970 - On May 2, Antillean Airlines (ALM) Flight 980, a DC-9 leased from Overseas Airways, departed Kennedy International nonstop to St. Maarten. After three attempted approaches to St. Maarten in bad weather, the crew diverted for St. Croix. Enroute the crew realized they were too low on fuel to either make St Croix or too turn back St. Maarten. They ditched the aircraft in Caribbean with only 40 of the 63 passengers surviving.
1972 - On the 17th of July, 1972, a Tupolev Tu-134 approaching Moscow's Moskva-Sheremetyevo Airport (SVO/UUEE), Russia ditched in Moscow Channel after both engines flamed out on final approach. The crew had forgotten to switch on the fuel transfer pumps in time and starved the engines of fuel. All aboard survived.
1978 - On the 8th of May, National Airlines Flight 193, a Boeing 727-235 en route from Miami to New Orleans, at night in low visibility from fog, descending into Pensacola Regional Airport, impacted Escambia Bay, sinking in 12 feet of water. A non-precision approach to runway 25 was being used. While established on the approach the ground proximity alarm sounded and the first officer checked his altimeter. He read it as 1,500' and turned off the alarm. The flight data recorder showed their actual altitude at this point was only 500' and they failed to realize they had passed through the minimum descent altitude. They touched down in Escambia Bay. Three passengers drowned.
1980 - On 7 August 1980, a Tupolev 154B-1 operated by Tarom Romanian Airlines ditched in the water, 1000 feet short of the runway at Nouadhibou Airport (NDB/GQPP), Mauritania. All aboard survived.
1980 - On 10 October 1980, a Sudan Air 707, newly purchased from Air Lingus was being transferred from Ireland to Egypt. The aircraft was inadvertently ditched on the Nile River at Khartoum when the pilot mistook the moonlit river for the nearby runway. Within two days the airplane had been stripped bare by the locals. (all survived)
A Boeing 707-351C of Trans Arabian Air Transport departed Khartoum for a flight to Mwanza. When they arrived there was no power at Mwanza but there was 5 miles visibility. After holding for 10 minutes, the airport generator came on and the runway lights went on. The first officer was flying a visual to runway 12. When well established on final the captain told the f/o that he was too low. The captain took over control and started a right turn when the aircraft bounced and came to a halt in the middle of the lake.
2002 - 16 January, 2002, an Indonesian Airline (Guarda) Boeing 737-300 had both engines flame out in a descend through rain clouds. Relights failed, the Captain set up a glide at 240 knots and decided to ditch on a river, the only clear spot in sight. The ditching was well executed and the 737 came to a stop, floating near the side of the river. One fatality, a stewardess who drowned in the 6 foot deep water.
2005 - August 6, 2005, Tuninter Air ATR-72, Flt. 1153, from Bari International Airport in Bari, Italy to Djerba-Zarzis Airport in Djerba, Tunisia, ran out of fuel and ditched into the ocean. The fuel gauge for an ATR-42 had been mistakenly installed on the ATR-72. The aircraft ran out of fuel mid-flight and the crew requested an emergency landing in Palermo, Sicily. The ATR glided for 16 minutes before ditching 15 miles northeast of Palermo International Airport. The aircraft broke apart on impact with 16 of the 39 aboard lost. [/i]
March 1955, Pan American Flight 845/26 ...plane lost, but all survived...
April 1956, North West Orient Airlines Flight 2....tail section broke off and it took on water quickly. All aboard departed safely.....
October 1956, Pan American Flight 943...The tail broke off but all 31 on board survived the ditching....The wreckage sank in less than 20 minutes.....
October 1963, Aeroflot Tu124...towed it to shallow waters. All 52 aboard survived....successful landing
February 1966, All Nippon Airways 727-100...broke apart and sank with all 133 aboard.
JAL stretched DC-8, 'Shiga.' ....So smoothly did the aircraft land on and settle in the water, that many of the passengers accepted it as the expected normal landing. There were no injuries. The aircraft was recovered, repaired, and flown again....very successful landing
May 1970, Antillean Airlines (ALM) Flight 980...They ditched the aircraft in Caribbean with only 40 of the 63 passengers surviving.
July 1972, a Tupolev Tu-134...All aboard survived....Successful landing
May 1978, National Airlines Flight 193,...Three passengers drowned....
August 1980, a Tupolev 154B-1....All aboard survived....Successful landing
October 1980, a Sudan Air 707, ...all survived...Successful landing
Boeing 707-351C...aircraft bounced and came to a halt in the middle of the lake....Successful landing
January 2002, an Indonesian Airline (Guarda) Boeing 737-300...ditching was well executed and the 737 came to a stop, floating near the side of the river. One fatality, a stewardess who drowned in the 6 foot deep water....
August 2005, Tuninter Air ATR-72, Flt. 1153, ...aircraft broke apart on impact with 16 of the 39 aboard lost....
MJ, clearly there have been quite a few successful landings where the plane didn't break up...I will retract my earlier misinformed comment. Though I should point out that it appears the common factor for most safe landings was that they mostly (but not all) lake and river landings. Calm water (and good piloting skills) greatly improves the odds.
...of course there are many other fatal examples not listed here....(Air France, Ethiopian Airlines, Swissair, etc)
[This message has been edited by Neils88 (edited 03-23-2014).]
MJ, clearly there have been quite a few successful landings where the plane didn't break up...I will retract my earlier misinformed comment. Though I should point out that it appears the common factor for most safe landings was that they mostly (but not all) lake and river landings. Calm water (and good piloting skills) greatly improves the odds.
...of course there are many other fatal examples not listed here....(Air France, Ethiopian Airlines, Swissair, etc)
Yes, there have been many un-intentional crashes. I was responding only in regards to incidents where an intentional water landing was attempted. (except for the stupid night landing in the Nile River simply because they thought it resembled the airport runway--I had to include it just for the bizarre factor) I'm not a pilot so I have no idea how difficult it would actually be, but if it came down to a choice between water or a forest/residential street, I think I would opt for the water attempt every time. Water isn't soft, but it's softer than a pine tree trunk.
[This message has been edited by maryjane (edited 03-23-2014).]
Yes, there have been many un-intentional crashes. I was responding only in regards to incidents where an intentional water landing was attempted. (except for the stupid night landing in the Nile River simply because they thought it resembled the airport runway--I had to include it just for the bizarre factor) I'm not a pilot so I have no idea how difficult it would actually be, but if it came down to a choice between water or a forest/residential street, I think I would opt for the water attempt every time. Water isn't soft, but it's softer than a pine tree trunk.
I agree that it is always the better option. The issue comes with digging an engine or wing into the water causing it to tear apart.
The video below shows an example of a failed attempt. The Ethiopian Airline had been hijacked and attempted a water landing after running out of fuel (the pilot was at the controls, not the hijackers). I think the guy in the speedo at the beginning is Nurb...
I believe the Ethopian water attempt took place while the pilot was still physically fighting with the hijackers. Had been fully focused on the landing, it may have turned out differently. Ya never know. (didn't help that he had no flap control either and couldn't shed airspeed)
quote
Leul tried to make an emergency landing at Prince Said Ibrahim International Airport on Grande Comore, but a fight with the hijackers at the last minute caused him to lose his visual point of reference, leaving him unable to locate the airport. While still fighting with the hijackers, he tried to ditch the aircraft in shallow waters 500 yards (457 m) off Le Galawa Beach Hotel, near Mitsamiouli at the northern end of Grande Comore island. Leul attempted to land parallel with the waves instead of against the waves in an effort to smooth the landing. Seconds prior to contacting the water the aircraft was banked left some ten degrees;[5] the left engine and wingtip struck the water first. The engine acted as a scoop and struck a coral reef, slowing that side of the aircraft quickly, causing the Boeing 767 to violently spin left and break apart. Except for the rear part of the airframe, the broken portions of the fuselage sank rapidly.
Now they are saying ACARS reported it was set to go to Beijing. Ok, I give up.
Edited for wording, The news started saying it reported as if it made it to Beijing but they corrected saying it reported no change to Beijing being the destination.
[This message has been edited by TK (edited 03-23-2014).]
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razar said Monday that a new analysis of electronic data shows that the missing Malaysian airlines it went down in a remote area of the Indian ocean and that there were no survivors.
He said the data finds that the plane flew along a southern corridor west of Perth, Australia.
"This is a remote location, far from any possible landing site," he said in a brief, televised statement. "It is therefore with deep sadness and regret that I must inform you that according to this new data flight MH370 3 ended in the southern Indian Ocean."
The plane, with 239 passengers aboard, was last heard from on March 8.
Just before the announcement, family members of the victims were sent a text message informing them of the findings.
The purported crash area is the same location west of Perth where satellite images have shown signs of debris that could be connected to the missing Boeing 777.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razar said Monday that a new analysis of electronic data shows that the missing Malaysian airlines it went down in a remote area of the Indian ocean and that there were no survivors. ... The purported crash area is the same location west of Perth where satellite images have shown signs of debris that could be connected to the missing Boeing 777.
Even though the conclusion may be correct, this smacks of re-interpreting the data to better match a working hypothesis.
[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 03-24-2014).]
Originally posted by Marvin McInnis: Even though the conclusion may be correct, this smacks of re-interpreting the data to better match a working hypothesis.
well... it is, after all, the malaysian govt. i still don't think crashing into the water was the original goal, although it's entirely possible that's where it ended up. this guy knew what he was doing, and spent a lot of time very purposefully "wandering around". if this current wreckage is 370, (if not, it may well be years before we know what happened) so be it, but i'm waiting for positive id. meanwhile, i think it's in eastern indonesia. we still don't know if they recovered anything from the aircrews' flightsims.
one outcome i'd like to see is that airplane builders make it a little harder to just flip a few switches and disconnect from the air traffic system.
[This message has been edited by lurker (edited 03-24-2014).]
