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My 1988 LFX F40 build. by Daryl M
Started on: 01-02-2019 10:42 PM
Replies: 255 (5238 views)
Last post by: Daryl M on 01-17-2020 08:23 PM
fieroguru
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Report this Post11-06-2019 07:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
Still looking for where the hose fitting in photo #3 should go. I remember hearing that there may not be a pcv valve on this engine.


GM switched to a fixed orifice bleed for the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) and stopped using a valve.

The tube/nipple/barb with the small orifice should connect to a filtered vacuum port on the intake (this is the dirty air exit to the intake manifold).

The other valve cover (or valley cover) should have another fitting/tube that is more open. That should connect to a filtered and metered air port (clean, metered air to enter the engine). This port/nipple should be in the air intake tube, after the MAF (metered) and before the throttle body. It looks like the rubber boot between the two has a nipple for this purpose.

If you wanted two, you could switch the connection points and change the air flow path through the engine, I just think having the smaller orifice end on the dirty air exit will help keep oil droplets from getting into the intake. On my LS4 swap I added a catch can on the dirty air line and it collects about 1" of oil ever y oil change (5000 miles).
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Will
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Report this Post11-07-2019 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Yes, I spun the boot and things lined up nicely.
Thanks


Ah, ok. I see it now. Good to hear.

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Still looking for where the hose fitting in photo #3 should go. I remember hearing that there may not be a pcv valve on this engine.


1. What's the fitting on the manifold between the broken fitting and the fuel connection (right above the connection in the #3 photo)?
2. What's the valve right next to the throttle on the inside of the elbow on the manifold?

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

GM switched to a fixed orifice bleed for the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) and stopped using a valve.

The tube/nipple/barb with the small orifice should connect to a filtered vacuum port on the intake (this is the dirty air exit to the intake manifold).

The other valve cover (or valley cover) should have another fitting/tube that is more open. That should connect to a filtered and metered air port (clean, metered air to enter the engine). This port/nipple should be in the air intake tube, after the MAF (metered) and before the throttle body. It looks like the rubber boot between the two has a nipple for this purpose.


We're pretty sure the connection from the front cam cover to the intake boot is the PCV fresh air.

There's a surprising amount of engineering that goes into PCV systems. Don't second guess GM on that one... just hook it up the way they did and send it.
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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-07-2019 12:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


1. Two heater core fittings plus a connection to the pressurized surge tank
2. Possible throttle body coolant + high point bleed connection to pressurized surge tank
3. Probably PCV vacuum connection
4. Ok.
5. It's taped over.
6. Probably PCV fresh air connection
7. Ok.
8. Ok.
9. Probably PCV fresh air connection. If you rotate the tube, it'll probably line up with the fitting in #6.

Looks like you have a broken fitting on your intake manifold above the center cylinder in the rear bank.



Will, what are the chances that the fitting in pic 3 and the gizmo in pic 2 connect to a vapor canister for the fuel vent system?
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Will
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Report this Post11-07-2019 01:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Will, what are the chances that the fitting in pic 3 and the gizmo in pic 2 connect to a vapor canister for the fuel vent system?


Good point.
Probably low. The gizmo could very well be an EECS solenoid. It would connect to a vapor canister for the fuel vent system, but probably does not connect to the PCV system.
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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-07-2019 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post






Finally got a bottom in the reduced size trunk. I lost a bit of room to accomodate the exhaust system and the sway bar, but I think it was an acceptable compramise. Still room for a duffle bag for an overnight trip, or a couple of camping chairs and car detail suplies when we go to the local parking lot car shows. Good thing I seldom win. No room for a trophy.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-07-2019 02:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


We're pretty sure the connection from the front cam cover to the intake boot is the PCV fresh air.

There's a surprising amount of engineering that goes into PCV systems. Don't second guess GM on that one... just hook it up the way they did and send it.

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-08-2019 01:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


We're pretty sure the connection from the front cam cover to the intake boot is the PCV fresh air.

There's a surprising amount of engineering that goes into PCV systems. Don't second guess GM on that one... just hook it up the way they did and send it.


As for the fitting (question #1) the broken one used to look kinda like that. They both were to mount the engine cover.
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Will
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Report this Post11-08-2019 09:39 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?


How much trouble does the LFX have with deposits? I thought the engines that had problems with valve deposits were mostly the ones with external EGR. Soot from the EGR mixes with oil vapor from the PCV system to produce wet gunk that adheres to the valve, then cokes. Take the EGR out of the mix and it's not nearly as much of a problem.
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Report this Post11-08-2019 05:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

How much trouble does the LFX have with deposits?
...


I have read some posts on the Camaro forum that lead me to believe that intake valve deposits really are "a thing" with the DI V6s, including the LFX.
To the point that people were talking about blasting the valves (hopefully while closed) with walnut shells, and then installing a catch can.

I would be inclined to pull the intake manifold(s) - if they haven't been, already - and at least check the valves. Base your decision to implement a catch can according to how the valves look, how many miles are on the engine, and how many miles you think you'll put on it. Just MHO.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-08-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-08-2019 10:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


I have read some posts on the Camaro forum that lead me to believe that intake valve deposits really are "a thing" with the DI V6s, including the LFX.
To the point that people were talking about blasting the valves (hopefully while closed) with walnut shells, and then installing a catch can.

I would be inclined to pull the intake manifold(s) - if they haven't been, already - and at least check the valves. Base your decision to implement a catch can according to how the valves look, how many miles are on the engine, and how many miles you think you'll put on it. Just MHO.



The LFX was GMs main passenger car V6 from 2012 to 2016. It was used in Cadillacs, Chevys, Buicks and GMC cars and crossovers. That's a bunch of cars. If it were a serious problem, GM would have fixed it, wouldn't they? A catch can can't hurt, but I don't think intake valve buildup will be a high priority.

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Report this Post11-10-2019 06:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

On my LS4 swap I added a catch can on the dirty air line and it collects about 1" of oil ever y oil change (5000 miles).



 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?


I'm going to change my position on this slightly.

For DI engines, run a catch can in between the PCV *OUTLET* and the manifold. IOW, the can will see manifold vacuum. Do *NOT* switch the flow direction. GM spends a lot of money designing oil separators that are highly efficient for the space available inside the valve cover. DI has made OEM level PCV oil separation requirements MUCH more stringent than port injection oil separation requirements were. The LFX, as a second generation DI engine, has the benefit of better PCV oil separation than older engines, including the LLT.

That being said, if you have extra space for a catch can, or gross overkill like a Mann & Hummel ProVent, using it to clean up the small amount of PCV oil that gets through GM's system will be beneficial for preventing valve deposits in the engine.

IOW, use the original PCV system, intact, in the original flow direction, but optionally add a catch can in between the valve cover outlet and the manifold vacuum connection.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-10-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-10-2019 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I'm going to change my position on this slightly.

For DI engines, run a catch can in between the PCV *OUTLET* and the manifold. IOW, the can will see manifold vacuum. Do *NOT* switch the flow direction. GM spends a lot of money designing oil separators that are highly efficient for the space available inside the valve cover. DI has made OEM level PCV oil separation requirements MUCH more stringent than port injection oil separation requirements were. The LFX, as a second generation DI engine, has the benefit of better PCV oil separation than older engines, including the LLT.

That being said, if you have extra space for a catch can, or gross overkill like a Mann & Hummel ProVent, using it to clean up the small amount of PCV oil that gets through GM's system will be beneficial for preventing valve deposits in the engine.

IOW, use the original PCV system, intact, in the original flow direction, but optionally add a catch can in between the valve cover outlet and the manifold vacuum connection.



Great suggestion to add the can. I do have a question about location. Does it matter how high or low the can is in relation to the engine?

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Report this Post11-11-2019 06:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?


Sending an oil mist through the intake will leave oil deposits everywhere inside (plenum, runners, back side of valves, etc.)
Traditional port fuel injected engines point the injector at the back of the valves, which helps to rinse them off and keep them clean.
DI engines move the injector into the combustion chamber, so any oil deposits that end up on the back side of the valve will collect over time and cause some form of buildup.

I mounted my catch can as low as possible and away from the exhaust heat for 2 reasons.
1. It will keep the walls of the can cooler than the air coming out the PCV port, which will help condense and collect any vapors.
2. The return from the oil can is an up hill path, so any mist that makes it past the can, has a secondary chance of condensing and rolling back down the tube and into the can before being introduced into the intake manifold.
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Report this Post11-11-2019 10:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Sending an oil mist through the intake will leave oil deposits everywhere inside (plenum, runners, back side of valves, etc.)
Traditional port fuel injected engines point the injector at the back of the valves, which helps to rinse them off and keep them clean.
DI engines move the injector into the combustion chamber, so any oil deposits that end up on the back side of the valve will collect over time and cause some form of buildup.

I mounted my catch can as low as possible and away from the exhaust heat for 2 reasons.
1. It will keep the walls of the can cooler than the air coming out the PCV port, which will help condense and collect any vapors.
2. The return from the oil can is an up hill path, so any mist that makes it past the can, has a secondary chance of condensing and rolling back down the tube and into the can before being introduced into the intake manifold.


EGR introduced into the manifold makes the problem MUCH worse than PCV vapors by themselves.
In a port injected engine, fuel is continuously washing any residue off the intake valves before it cokes.

Interestingly, Porsche's new DI engines position the injector such that it sprays the backs of the intake valves while they're open.
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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-11-2019 10:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
I love that you guys know so much about this stuff and are so willing to help . by the way, happy Veterans Day.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 11-11-2019).]

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-13-2019 06:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Definitely install an oil catch can. The PCV valve changed for the LFX, but some of them use the same valve as the LLT and there is no baffling on the right side valve cover except for the partition with three small holes that is molded into the valve cover gasket for that side, so I wouldn't expect there to be much of a difference in oil passage into the intake between the motors, except where differences in the PCV effect it. The right side valve cover gasket molding enhancement, is a later design for the 3.6L that was implemented to help with baffling, but the old design without the partition is still available and some unwittingly purchase it.

Some have also proposed modifying the holes in the pcv valve, in an effort to reduce the tendency of the crankcase gasses from reversing at moderately high to wideopen throttle and flowing backward into the lower resistance clean side upstream of the throttlebody. Enlarging the holes results in more oil exiting the valve cover, giving a reason to need to check and empty the catch can recommended, along with the mod routinely, when you should want the oil to stay in the motor.

Below are some pictures of my intake valves, which I cleaned using the intake valve adjusting sequence for the cam in block motor, closing the target valves in groups of three. I used a cheap flexible camera and a digital camera that had difficulty negotiating the angle involved later in the day and couldn't get as good a picture of the clean valves as I did the dirty valves.

If the residue is bad enough, it has a tendency to interfere with cold startup and idle in the form of reversion and misfires that can to some degree be masked with premium fuel, which is a waste given the motor was rated on 87 octane. See the video link along with the thread of origin at the bottom.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=injo3XS5eJg

https://www.cadillacforums....cold-starts.1043882/
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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-13-2019 07:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Definitely install an oil catch can. The PCV valve changed for the LFX, but some of them use the same valve as the LLT and there is no baffling on the right side valve cover except for the partition with three small holes that is molded into the valve cover gasket for that side, so I wouldn't expect there to be much of a difference in oil passage into the intake between the motors, except where differences in the PCV effect it. The right side valve cover gasket molding enhancement, is a later design for the 3.6L that was implemented to help with baffling, but the old design without the partition is still available and some unwittingly purchase it.

Some have also proposed modifying the holes in the pcv valve, in an effort to reduce the tendency of the crankcase gasses from reversing at moderately high to wideopen throttle and flowing backward into the lower resistance clean side upstream of the throttlebody. Enlarging the holes results in more oil exiting the valve cover, giving a reason to need to check and empty the catch can recommended, along with the mod routinely, when you should want the oil to stay in the motor.

Below are some pictures of my intake valves, which I cleaned using the intake valve adjusting sequence for the cam in block motor, closing the target valves in groups of three. I used a cheap flexible camera and a digital camera that had difficulty negotiating the angle involved later in the day and couldn't get as good a picture of the clean valves as I did the dirty valves.

If the residue is bad enough, it has a tendency to interfere with cold startup and idle in the form of reversion and misfires that can to some degree be masked with premium fuel, which is a waste given the motor was rated on 87 octane. See the video link along with the thread of origin at the bottom.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=injo3XS5eJg

https://www.cadillacforums....cold-starts.1043882/

It is my understanding that the Cadillacs in the videos werenot the newer LFX motor, but were the LF1 3 liter. Is that what you understand too?
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Will
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Report this Post11-13-2019 07:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

which is a waste given the motor was rated on 87 octane. See the video link along with the thread of origin at the bottom.



While being "rated" for 87, the LLT at least definitely performs better on 91+
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Report this Post11-14-2019 09:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

It is my understanding that the Cadillacs in the videos werenot the newer LFX motor, but were the LF1 3 liter. Is that what you understand too?


The LF1 and LLT are the same "generation" of DI engines... that is, first generation before these issues were well understood by OEMs.
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Report this Post11-14-2019 02:18 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

It is my understanding that the Cadillacs in the videos werenot the newer LFX motor, but were the LF1 3 liter. Is that what you understand too?


That may be, but the same principles are at play. I chose that example because I encountered it recently while searching for something else. If the Camaro forum is any indication, there are more oil catch cans on LFX motors than any of the predecessors.


 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

While being "rated" for 87, the LLT at least definitely performs better on 91+


That has not been my experience with mine and hence part of the reason I stopped putting premium in it. My 32 mpg hwy best over a common 80 mile trip that I make from time to time was not on premium fuel which I have not used in more than a year now. Doesn't mean it is not possible for an example to perform better with more octane, but I can no longer rationalize the use of premium for performance specs achieved on regular. I may mount up the acelerometer and fill up with it again for another try.

There is documentation in my owners manual that supports moving to 89 octane for better performance in like vehicles equipped with the LY7 port injected 3.6L 10.2:1 compression, if spark knock is detected, but no such recommendation for the direct injected motor. The direct injection is that efficient, the LLT is 11.3:1 and the LFX 11.5:1 compression, both rated on 87 octane which should pretty much dampen the notion that there is any more to be had with premium except where the tune has been altered. If there were, I'd expect GM to have stated so in the owners manual.

As I mentioned previously, premium does tend to have an audible effect on cold starts if they are like what's heard in the video by decreasing and eliminating them altogether, but that's only masking the real issue.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-14-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-14-2019 06:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


That has not been my experience with mine and hence part of the reason I stopped putting premium in it. My 32 mpg hwy best over a common 80 mile trip that I make from time to time was not on premium fuel which I have not used in more than a year now. Doesn't mean it is not possible for an example to perform better with more octane, but I can no longer rationalize the use of premium for performance specs achieved on regular. I may mount up the acelerometer and fill up with it again for another try.

There is documentation in my owners manual that supports moving to 89 octane for better performance in like vehicles equipped with the LY7 port injected 3.6L, if spark knock is detected, but no such recommendation for the direct injected motor. The direct injection is that efficient, the LLT is 11.3:1 and the LFX 11.5:1 compression, both rated on 87 octane which should pretty much dampen the notion that there is any more to be had with premium except where the tune has been altered. If there were, I'd expect GM to have stated so in the owners manual.

As I mentioned previously, premium does tend to have an audible effect on cold starts if they are like what's heard in the video by decreasing and eliminating them altogether, but that's only masking the real issue.



Luckily, I live in Phoenix where there is no such thing as a cold start.😝😝😝


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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-18-2019 02:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post




Hi All,
I am still working out the pvc system. I found the grey canister shown in the photo, in the pile of parts from the donor car (2013 Impala). One hose seems to fit as shown, but where do the other two go? This would be easier if I had taken photos before dismantling the Impala, but so is goes with amatures like me. Anyone willing to give more advice or know where i can get a schematic of the PVC system from a 2013 impala with an LFX? The other photo shows other hose routing I found in a photo on the web. Looks just like you guys discribed. Is this the line where a catch can would be added?
Thanks
Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 11-18-2019).]

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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-18-2019 08:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
That looks like the charcoal canister from the Fiero, You need the EVAP canister from the donor car which is likely somewhere near the fuel tank, unless you're able to disable the codes that are going to set as a result of it missing from the circuitry. That's not going to work for what you're attempting to use it for. Do a google search, you should find some good ideas on what you can do for an oil catch can.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-18-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-19-2019 03:01 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

That looks like the charcoal canister from the Fiero, You need the EVAP canister from the donor car which is likely somewhere near the fuel tank, unless you're able to disable the codes that are going to set as a result of it missing from the circuitry. That's not going to work for what you're attempting to use it for. Do a google search, you should find some good ideas on what you can do for an oil catch can.



Any idea where I can find a schematic of the PVC system of a 2013 Impala?
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fieroguru
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Report this Post11-19-2019 06:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
Any idea where I can find a schematic of the PVC system of a 2013 Impala?


Factory service manual.

I don't do any OBDII swap without one. It gives you a lot of details important to the swap and helps you avoid issues.
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Report this Post11-19-2019 12:12 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by fieroguru:


Factory service manual.

I don't do any OBDII swap without one. It gives you a lot of details important to the swap and helps you avoid issues.


Thanks Guru. Great tip.
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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-19-2019 11:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Factory service manual.

I don't do any OBDII swap without one. It gives you a lot of details important to the swap and helps you avoid issues.


So any tips on where to get a factory service manual?
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Will
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Report this Post11-20-2019 08:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

So any tips on where to get a factory service manual?


https://www.helminc.com/hel...e=&selected%5Fmedia=

The paper manual set is a bit pricey at $300.

AllData and a couple of other services are available on a subscription basis with factory service info.
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-20-2019 11:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Ebay, craigslist and offerup for the best prices on GM shop manuals. I found a set for my car on ebay in like new condition for a small cry of what they cost. Four mid to large phone book size manuals. I prefer turning pages to looking at a computer screen on diagnostic issues.

On a different note, GM did some nice work on improving this motor. The DI motors have shorter piston wrist pins that are also tapered inside the ends for a weight reduction of 20 grams over the first design in the LY7. That along with increasing the connecting rod length from 5.9212" to 6.00" amounts to ~100 lb reduction in inertial load at peak rpm. The DI motors also have connecting rods that are also tapered on the small end for an additional reciprocating weight reduction. On my scale, LY7 rod 646 grams, DI rods 640 grams. The DI pistons are roughly 1 gram lighter in wt from my measurements.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-20-2019).]

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Will
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Report this Post11-20-2019 04:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Are LY7 and LLT parts the same in that regard?

The LFX makes more output in stock form than the LLT, but the LLT can have headers and the LFX can't.
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RandomTask
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Report this Post11-20-2019 04:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RandomTaskClick Here to Email RandomTaskSend a Private Message to RandomTaskEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

How much clearance do you have between the valve covers and the front firewall and trunk forward wall?

After looking at your pics closely my biggest lf3 fear looks true... Not enough room to fit the stock compressor to IC pipes......plenty of room down below...just not up top........


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.
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Joseph Upson
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Report this Post11-20-2019 05:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Joseph UpsonClick Here to Email Joseph UpsonSend a Private Message to Joseph UpsonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Are LY7 and LLT parts the same in that regard?

The LFX makes more output in stock form than the LLT, but the LLT can have headers and the LFX can't.


If by "same" you mean interchangeable yes they are as long as they're paired with the appropriate matching equipment. It seems as if GM deliberately changed crucial specs in each engine iteration to prevent mixing and matching to create a hybrid, unless you're trying to pump up the LY7. The LY7, LLT/LFX and the LF3/LF4 have different connecting rod lengths. My initial plan was to shave the heads, thin out the MLS head gasket and put the 11.5:1 compression pistons on the turbo rods for higher compression, until I discovered the turbo rods were shorter requiring custom.

In addition to that, the timing cover is pinned to the block, so if .020-.030 is shaved off the heads, the camshaft actuator interrupts will be in a new and lower position relative to the camshaft sensors in the fixed timing cover and that might be enough to cause a code to set when the cam and crank positions are compared.

The LFX has larger intake valves a little more intake camshaft duration and a power peak set 400 rpm higher than the LLT for that extra horsepower, 20 more than the LLT CTS, but only 11 more than the LLT Camaro suggesting some exhaust flow differences and possibly programming, but the major improvement would be best illustrated by comparison of area under the curve. Interestingly, GM manufactured the LLT all the way up through 2017.

Another interesting fact, the LS7 titanium connecting rods are lighter than the LF4 titanium connecting rods, although the LS7 has greater inertia loads.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-20-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-20-2019 09:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


Actually,the LF3 was used in a transverse application, the Cadillac XTS-v. It did use different turbos than the longitudinal applications and made less power, but that may just be the tune to save the drivetrain.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-20-2019 09:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


As for the details of my swap, this thread covers most of the gory details like axles, clutch, motor mounts and such.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-25-2019 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


Not sure what you mean by "flipping the intake". It is installed as the factory originally installed it.
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wftb
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Report this Post11-25-2019 11:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
Hi Daryl : I was just flipping through your thread again and I noticed you have not talked about installing your drive by wire pedal assembly yet. I was on utube looking at ecotec powered sand rails and I found a guy that made a simple way to do DBW without changing the pedal assembly. He just removed the pedal from the DBW unit and mounted it near the engine and hooked his throttle cable to it with a home made bracket. I think this would save a lot of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqnwrU972k

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
QA1 coilovers on tube arms

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-26-2019 12:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
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Originally posted by wftb:

Hi Daryl : I was just flipping through your thread again and I noticed you have not talked about installing your drive by wire pedal assembly yet. I was on utube looking at ecotec powered sand rails and I found a guy that made a simple way to do DBW without changing the pedal assembly. He just removed the pedal from the DBW unit and mounted it near the engine and hooked his throttle cable to it with a home made bracket. I think this would save a lot of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqnwrU972k



I actually used the Impala accelerater DBW pedal. Real simple to bolt to the Fiero floor board.
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msweldon
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Report this Post11-26-2019 11:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:
OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).


The SAAB F40 jackshaft and mount will bolt up to the LFX perfectly and probably the LGX. Not 100% sure about the LLT or LY7. It will bolt to the LF4/LF3 but you have to shave off one of the three bolt holes from the mount as it impacts the oil return line. The LF3 intermediate shaft and mount does not line up to the saab F40.

 
quote

2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?


The Cobalt SS supercharged axles will bolt right in from F40 to DS hub and from jackshaft to PS hub but you have to shift the engine over about two inches toward the passenger side. Ok with a V6 not so much with an LS4. These axles did have issues with breaking when pushed. The next generation Cobalt SS Turbo axles are 'seriously' more stout but use a different outer stub and hub so I had to respline them to a G6 cage/balls with Fiero outer stub.

 
quote

3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)

As the LFX/LLT/LY7 et. al. all use the same general external block layout as the SAAB 9-3 2.8T LP9 so you can use a stock SAAB/Sachs or Sachs performance setup. Spec offers many clutch options as well as two flywheel options for the LP9. Even a 7.5" twin disk for racing only... Camaro clutch and flywheel will 'not' fit as it's made for the longitudinal 6 speed setup and too deep of a bellhousing. I worked with one of the owners of RAM clutches to see if we could adapt their Camaro LFX twin disc 9.5" clutch to the F40. The FW/PP/clutch setup was drawn up and ready for a prototype run but the F40 HTOB and input shaft doesn't have the spline depth their twin 9.5" setup.

 
quote

4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.

Well, for one the E36/E92 ECUs need the VSS for feeding speedo output, mixed with yaw sensors for traction control, steering sensitivity (VAPS), and the ATS-V 6-Speed even uses it for its No-Lift Shifting for revmatching. I have spoken to a few Miata/LFX swappers and they even have issues with engine stumbling and erratic behavior at low speed if their VSS sensor wheel doesn't have enough teeth. I think the threshhold is about 16 or 18 teeth minimum for the E36/E92 if memory serves me correctly.

 
quote

The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


The LF3 did come in a transverse form in the XTS-V but the turbos are a bit on the smaller side for low end torque to lug the XTS around. The turbo's measured on my LF3 shoud fit in our engine bay but like i said, the turbo to intercooler pipes can't. The pipes perhaps could be ovalized or rerouted or a BFH against the rear firewall and the engine shifted aft but I opted to remove them and go with a custom exhaust and mount over the F40 like the LP9 SAAB layout and a more appropriate mid ranged sized turbo. Unfortunately the manifold bolt patterns are different between the LF3/LF4 and the LFX/LGX so the turbo's can't be swapped over.

The LFX's are good motors but they're built internally to be normally aspirated and will fail if pushed too far with forced induction. Do a search for GretchenGotGrowl on the Camaro forums. Granted, he eventually wrung near or at 700lb/ft out of his LFX but had to replace blocks, beef up internals, HPFP, etc.. That's where the LF3/LF4 come into play... they already have the built in fueling internals to handle forced induction included. Per Renik performance out of California their weak points, if upping the boost, are needing a bigger HPFP or larger HPFP cam on the cam, upgraded LPFP, the titanium rods on the LF4 can shatter under detonation, and the main and CR bearings are a little soft for OEM embedibility / reliability.

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 11-26-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-26-2019 09:56 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


The LF3 did come in a transverse form in the XTS-V but the turbos are a bit on the smaller side for low end torque to lug the XTS around. The turbo's measured on my LF3 shoud fit in our engine bay but like i said, the turbo to intercooler pipes can't. The pipes perhaps could be ovalized or rerouted or a BFH against the rear firewall and the engine shifted aft but I opted to remove them and go with a custom exhaust and mount over the F40 like the LP9 SAAB layout and a more appropriate mid ranged sized turbo. Unfortunately the manifold bolt patterns are different between the LF3/LF4 and the LFX/LGX so the turbo's can't be swapped over.

The LFX's are good motors but they're built internally to be normally aspirated and will fail if pushed too far with forced induction. Do a search for GretchenGotGrowl on the Camaro forums. Granted, he eventually wrung near or at 700lb/ft out of his LFX but had to replace blocks, beef up internals, HPFP, etc.. That's where the LF3/LF4 come into play... they already have the built in fueling internals to handle forced induction included. Per Renik performance out of California their weak points, if upping the boost, are needing a bigger HPFP or larger HPFP cam on the cam, upgraded LPFP, the titanium rods on the LF4 can shatter under detonation, and the main and CR bearings are a little soft for OEM embedibility / reliability.



Great info msweldon


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Daryl M
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Report this Post11-26-2019 10:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Hi Daryl : I was just flipping through your thread again and I noticed you have not talked about installing your drive by wire pedal assembly yet. I was on utube looking at ecotec powered sand rails and I found a guy that made a simple way to do DBW without changing the pedal assembly. He just removed the pedal from the DBW unit and mounted it near the engine and hooked his throttle cable to it with a home made bracket. I think this would save a lot of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqnwrU972k






Since you asked, here is a photo of the Impala accelerator pedal installed in my Fiero.
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