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My 1988 LFX F40 build. by Daryl M
Started on: 01-02-2019 10:42 PM
Replies: 186 (3651 views)
Last post by: Daryl M on 10-20-2019 01:36 AM
Will
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Report this Post02-01-2019 08:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Hondas V6's have 90 degree bank angles. Given the Miata's engine bay, the narrower bank angle of the LFX probably fits better.

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thesameguy
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Report this Post02-01-2019 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Check out Monster Miatas. LS motors too.


Yeah, V8 Miatas are well-established - I was surprised to see a modern V6 used, and intrigued by the idea of the electronics they're using to run it! If that software exists, it's good news to anyone who wants to put an LFX where it doesn't belong.

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quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Yeah, V8 Miatas are well-established - I was surprised to see a modern V6 used, and intrigued by the idea of the electronics they're using to run it! If that software exists, it's good news to anyone who wants to put an LFX where it doesn't belong.


V8Roadsters and another outfit in Canada sell an LFX harness using the stock ECU modified enough to run the engine more or less by itself without the BCM and CANBUS yet still tunable by HPTuners.... I've spoken with the guys at V8Roadsters about a year ago for an LFX harness configured for the Fiero, i.e. layout for our mid engined setup and they have no problems configuring their harness as such..

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post02-01-2019 03:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


V8Roadsters and another outfit in Canada sell an LFX harness using the stock ECU modified enough to run the engine more or less by itself without the BCM and CANBUS yet still tunable by HPTuners.... I've spoken with the guys at V8Roadsters about a year ago for an LFX harness configured for the Fiero, i.e. layout for our mid engined setup and they have no problems configuring their harness as such..


If plug and play LFX engine swap harnesses come available for the Fiero, I would imagine that they would sell but they would have to include the automatic that is part of the powertrain. As the years progress, we can't just continue to use 10-15 yr old engine technology that in many case will be high mileage and/or heavily worn. LFX engines are now the modern choice and very plentiful. Seems a logical choice for new Fiero swaps. Those engines are light weight and they provide 300-325 HP stock .

------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
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Raydar
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Report this Post02-01-2019 05:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
If plug and play LFX engine swap harnesses come available for the Fiero, I would imagine that they would sell but they would have to include the automatic that is part of the powertrain. As the years progress, we can't just continue to use 10-15 yr old engine technology that in many case will be high mileage and/or heavily worn. LFX engines are now the modern choice and very plentiful. Seems a logical choice for new Fiero swaps. Those engines are light weight and they provide 300-325 HP stock .



I think that most of the stand-alones are geared toward manual swaps, but I don't see any reason (which may be short-sighted of me) that an automatic LFX PCM - from an Impala, for example - couldn't be "de-contented" in a manner similar to what's being done with the manual setup. Unless the automatic is dependent upon BCM stuff to function, that is.
I'm betting it could be made to work, with a little research.
(I think it would actually make a nice swap. My wife's mom has an LY7 with a longitudinal 6 speed auto (6L70?) in a CTS. I have often thought it would feel good in a Fiero. Configuration notwithstanding.)

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thesameguy
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Report this Post02-01-2019 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
I think that most of the stand-alones are geared toward manual swaps, but I don't see any reason (which may be short-sighted of me) that an automatic LFX PCM - from an Impala, for example - couldn't be "de-contented" in a manner similar to what's being done with the manual setup. Unless the automatic is dependent upon BCM stuff to function, that is.


Yes, this. I DGAF about the automatic... I would definitely go in for an LFX harness with an LFX ECM with a tune for standalone operation. TAKE MY MONEY.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-01-2019 05:49 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


I think that most of the stand-alones are geared toward manual swaps, but I don't see any reason (which may be short-sighted of me) that an automatic LFX PCM - from an Impala, for example - couldn't be "de-contented" in a manner similar to what's being done with the manual setup. Unless the automatic is dependent upon BCM stuff to function, that is.
I'm betting it could be made to work, with a little research.
(I think it would actually make a nice swap. My wife's mom has an LY7 with a longitudinal 6 speed auto (6L70?) in a CTS. I have often thought it would feel good in a Fiero. Configuration notwithstanding.)


According to Ryan (aka Darthfiero) THE BCM IS ALSO needed do a the automatic. That was one factor that I considered when I decided on the F40.

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Raydar
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Report this Post02-01-2019 07:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

According to Ryan (aka Darthfiero) THE BCM IS ALSO needed do a the automatic. That was one factor that I considered when I decided on the F40.


Ah. Okay. Doesn't surprise me. Disappointed a bit (the automatic is that good) but not surprised.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-01-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-01-2019 09:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My question is, does needing the BCM cause that many problems? With the BCM, the ECM and the Transmission Control Unit, there is more to mess with, but it should be possible. ABS, SRS, and Traction Control would have to be disabled, but the donor car instruments could be used. The Impala had a 160 mph speedo. That would be cool. The other possible issue I see is the physical size of the tranny. It is bigger than a manual and may require a shoe horn and a big hammer to make it fit.

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wftb
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Report this Post02-01-2019 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

My ecotec swap basically has the entire wiring harness from a 2004 Cavalier, minus the lighting bits. It was easy, and the BCM was not a problem. If you have the fuel pump and harness from the donor car, it is all just plug and play. In my case, the fiero module is not even in my car.

------------------
86 GT built 2.2 ecotec turbo
rear SLA suspension
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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-02-2019 10:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
My question is, does needing the BCM cause that many problems? With the BCM, the ECM and the Transmission Control Unit, there is more to mess with, but it should be possible. ABS, SRS, and Traction Control would have to be disabled, but the donor car instruments could be used. The Impala had a 160 mph speedo. That would be cool. The other possible issue I see is the physical size of the tranny. It is bigger than a manual and may require a shoe horn and a big hammer to make it fit.


Adding the BCM is just more wiring and other supporting modules. It will take more time and the wiring will be more complicated, but fundamentally not a huge deal. Many people are already adding auxiliary modules for auto sensing head lights, remote door locks, retained accessory power, etc... the BCM allows all those features and more (like newer instrument clusters & newer HVAC control systems). It all depends on which supporting modules you want to add.

For the auto swap, you will need feedback from a brake pedal sensor (start circuit, TCC lockup, cruise, etc), and those are now separate modules that feed information directly to the BCM. The BCM collects information from the brake sensor module and sends it to the ECM/TCM through the GM LAN wires. The later model ECMs (and some calibration applications) don't have direct wiring points for some of this sensor information, which is why the BCMs are being required more and more.

Tuning out the extra modules not used (like ABS, HVAC, etc) shouldn't be difficult, but might require a specific tuning software.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-02-2019 07:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Does the transmission care if traction control is operative?

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wftb
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Report this Post02-02-2019 07:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I have HP tuners. Some things can be simply turned off, other things you just fake out by changing the parameters. My donor car was a manual, so it came with the traction control not turned off but with it set to come on at 10,000 rpm. There are other transmission parameters that were worked around in a similar manner. So this OS (from a 2004 cavalier) was probably used for both automatic and manual equipped cars. HP Tuners has a great website and forum where you can find out exactly what it can do for your vehicle.

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fieroguru
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Report this Post02-03-2019 09:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Generally speaking, traction control uses the ABS sensors on the wheels, vehicle speed from the transmission VSS, the BCM to help send information between modules, and the ECM to adjust timing and override control of the DBW. There are other sensors/modules in play, but those are the main ones.

Without the BCM, most swaps will need to go into the traction control and abuse control tables and either zero them out or raise the activation speed/rpm to effectively disable. With the missing input from the wheel sensors, at large throttle openings, the ecm can determine the missing data as wheel slip and intervene by closing the throttle or lowering the timing to reduce power.

The available tables and ability to edit information is largely ecm and calibration specific, so you really need to get the ecm, HP Tuners or your tuning package of choice, and see what table are there and your ability to change the values.

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RacerX11
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Report this Post02-04-2019 04:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RacerX11Click Here to Email RacerX11Send a Private Message to RacerX11Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Hondas V6's have 90 degree bank angles. Given the Miata's engine bay, the narrower bank angle of the LFX probably fits better.

Only the older C-series Honda V6's are 90 degree. The J-series are 60 degree, and fit the Miata just fine.

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RacerX11
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quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Will, no plastic intakes for any LLT's, they were introduced on the LFX's and on with the LGX.


The later LLT's in the Lambda chassis SUV's used the LFX plastic upper intake with an adapter.

Marty

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quote
Originally posted by RacerX11:


The later LLT's in the Lambda chassis SUV's used the LFX plastic upper intake with an adapter.

Marty


Thanks for the correction...

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Will
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Report this Post02-04-2019 05:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by RacerX11:


The later LLT's in the Lambda chassis SUV's used the LFX plastic upper intake with an adapter.

Marty


Oh, snazzy!

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 12:04 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post





Ok, time to tap the community mind. I got my 88 in pieces and didn't see it when it had the engine in it. This cable and bracket was hanging in the engine compartment. The other end seems to go to the very front of the console tunnel. It is difficult to see just where, but it appears to be hooked to nothing? Does anyone know what it is ? The car is a 1988 and had an Isuzu transmission in it. Anything else I would tell you would be a guess.
Thanks,
Daryl

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 01:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

I did a test fit this morning just to make sure it is all going to fit. So far I think I'm pretty happy, that is until I find that first thing that I didn't notice.😝





































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msweldon
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Report this Post02-06-2019 01:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for msweldonClick Here to Email msweldonSend a Private Message to msweldonEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

How much clearance do you have between the valve covers and the front firewall and trunk forward wall?

After looking at your pics closely my biggest lf3 fear looks true... Not enough room to fit the stock compressor to IC pipes......plenty of room down below...just not up top........

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Will
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Report this Post02-06-2019 04:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

It clears the hinge box? That's pretty awesome. 3.4 TDC doesn't even do that.
And clears the right strut tower in an '88.

Did you remove the chassis side dogbone mount or was that done before you bought the car?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-06-2019).]

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thesameguy
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Report this Post02-06-2019 04:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for thesameguyClick Here to Email thesameguySend a Private Message to thesameguyEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Wow.... I thought an M30 in an E30 was tight, but that's incredible.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 04:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

It clears the hinge box? That's pretty awesome. 3.4 TDC doesn't even do that.
And clears the right strut tower in an '88.

Did you remove the chassis side dogbone mount or was that done before you bought the car?



Yes, the dog bone mount had to go. I took it out after the test fit in December. I still plan on finishing the complete tear down and clean up before the finish assembly, but these test fits sure do help me get an idea of what to do next.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

How much clearance do you have between the valve covers and the front firewall and trunk forward wall?

After looking at your pics closely my biggest lf3 fear looks true... Not enough room to fit the stock compressor to IC pipes......plenty of room down below...just not up top........


It is pretty tight in both places up top. The heat shields had to go, but there is room to insulate with the aluminized blanket stuff. You are correct about the room down lower. I did sacrifice the bottom 5" of the trunk so I could do a relatively quiet muffler. To be honest, I don't think I'll miss it. My 87 GT has a removable shelf that sets in about half way down. I seldom use the bottom half.

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Report this Post02-06-2019 05:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:



That is the stock 2.8 throttle cable. You need small hands and the center console skeleton removed to take the other end out.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-06-2019).]

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Report this Post02-06-2019 05:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wftbClick Here to Email wftbSend a Private Message to wftbEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Looks great for a first test. The cable you were asking about looks like a throttle cable. Not really sure though. Keep up the good work and thanks for posting the pics.

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Report this Post02-06-2019 05:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fieroguruSend a Private Message to fieroguruEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

The engine looks good in there with plenty of room in most of the areas. I like how the air intake and several of the hose connections point forward... almost like it was designed to fit in there.

The only thing I noticed was the AC line missing from the compressor and the huge cat in its path to the passenger side of the car. It might take some creative routing and some good insulation, but nothing too difficult.

I am not a fan of engine covers, but that intake either needs smoothed or covered in my opinion.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 06:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The engine looks good in there with plenty of room in most of the areas. I like how the air intake and several of the hose connections point forward... almost like it was designed to fit in there.

The only thing I noticed was the AC line missing from the compressor and the huge cat in its path to the passenger side of the car. It might take some creative routing and some good insulation, but nothing too difficult.

I am not a fan of engine covers, but that intake either needs smoothed or covered in my opinion.


Guru, I agree that the engine isn't pretty, but that will come later.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 06:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post





This is my solution for the oil pressure senders. Jus have to thread the 16mm part that screws into the engine.

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pmbrunelle
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Report this Post02-06-2019 07:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for pmbrunelleClick Here to Email pmbrunelleSend a Private Message to pmbrunelleEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Engine fits like a glove.

Handy to have a lathe around, isn't it?

I've been using my dad's lathe for the last few weekends straight that I've been working on my car.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-06-2019 10:10 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Engine fits like a glove.

Handy to have a lathe around, isn't it?

I've been using my dad's lathe for the last few weekends straight that I've been working on my car.


Yes, having a proper shop is wonderful! This is the first time in my life I've had a real shop to work in. Retirement is proving to be quite fun! I just wish I was better at using the tools I now have.

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Report this Post02-07-2019 06:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaClick Here to Email Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


According to Ryan (aka Darthfiero) THE BCM IS ALSO needed do a the automatic. That was one factor that I considered when I decided on the F40.


According to a guy on You Tube that has done LFX swaps on trucks, he has been able to make the powertrain work and shift with an auto, I believe without the BCM.
BTW, nice job on the fit.
------------------
" THE BLACK PARALYZER" -87GT 3800SC Series III engine, custom ZZP /Frozen Boost Intercooler setup, 3.4" Pulley, Northstar TB, LS1 MAF, 3" Spintech/Hedman Exhaust, P-log Manifold, Autolite 104's, MSD wires, Custom CAI, 4T65eHD w. custom axles, Champion Radiator, S10 Brake Booster, HP Tuners VCM Suite.
"THE COLUSSUS"
87GT - ALL OUT 3.4L Turbocharged engine, Garrett Hybrid Turbo, MSD ign., modified TH125H
" ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 02-07-2019).]

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-07-2019 09:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


According to a guy on You Tube that has done LFX swaps on trucks, he has been able to make the powertrain work and shift with an auto, I believe without the BCM.
BTW, nice job on the fit.


Thanks Dennis. Btw another consideration for the automatic is the size of the tranny. I didn't actually test fit it, but it did seem to be bigger than the available space. I did wonder if the Impala cradle and suspension could just be bolted to the Fiero.

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Daryl M
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Report this Post02-08-2019 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Daryl MClick Here to Email Daryl MSend a Private Message to Daryl MEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post



I just received the ends I am going to try for shift cables on my swap. Sticking with my plan to make as much as I can myself and only buy stuff when I can't do it myself. I cut the old ends from the cables that were on my Fiero and threaded the ends. These 10mm ends seem to fit the F40 transmission and thread onto the cables . If they work, great. If not, I spent a whopping $16.

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Will
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Report this Post02-12-2019 08:26 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

Wow.... I thought an M30 in an E30 was tight, but that's incredible.


Lol... you should see a Northstar in the engine bay. The LFX swap is spacious.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-12-2019).]

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Rickady88GT
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Report this Post02-12-2019 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Rickady88GTClick Here to Email Rickady88GTSend a Private Message to Rickady88GTEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Lol... you should see a Northstar in the engine bay. The LFX swap is spacious.



The "sort star" v6 Northstar (LX5) is a huge chunk as well. But did fit.







Notice that the front Valve cover is under the deck lid and rear window, hidden from view.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-12-2019).]

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iluvsd619
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Report this Post02-12-2019 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for iluvsd619Click Here to Email iluvsd619Send a Private Message to iluvsd619Edit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

Im so glad to see this swap getting done. I have been wanting to this for awhile. Can't wait to see and hear it drive. Great job!

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Will
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Report this Post02-12-2019 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by RacerX11:

Only the older C-series Honda V6's are 90 degree. The J-series are 60 degree, and fit the Miata just fine.


Interesting. Thanks!
Gives me evil thoughts dropping the current 3.5 into an NSX with twin turbos...

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Will
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Report this Post02-12-2019 02:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillEdit/Delete MessageReply w/QuoteDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

The "sort star" v6 Northstar (LX5) is a huge chunk as well. But did fit.







Notice that the front Valve cover is under the deck lid and rear window, hidden from view.



The 90 degree bank angle is basically similar between the two engines in terms of clearance to the firewall and trunk wall, but you have WAY more clearance to the strut tower.

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