Originally posted by La fiera: Another thing, aluminum heads have 7mm valve stems and my iron heads have 11/32 (8.65mm) valve stems. Which means the iron heads have a restriction compared to the aluminum heads. So I have a handicap compared to the alumum heads. I wonder if I install 7mm stem valves for a fair comparison!
When I was building my 3.4 V6, I asked the machine shop if they could narrow down the valve stems, right behind the valve (for less airflow restriction). They refused to do it. Maybe you could find a machine shop who can do that?
When I was building my 3.4 V6, I asked the machine shop if they could narrow down the valve stems, right behind the valve (for less airflow restriction). They refused to do it. Maybe you could find a machine shop who can do that?
Mine will do that on the engine I'm having built (slowly). If you look at "foreign" valves, they are skinny as all hell and don't break. They are just paranoid as heck.
The Fiero Store SSI valves are narrowed there slightly to match GEN3 valve stem diameters. However I want to go to a 1.8" intake valve...so I will need my stems narrowed.
You can just barely notice it here on the SSI valves:
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-03-2020).]
anonymous troll: it's all stock except everything...
oh the heads don't flow!
until they do flow...
so let's change the rules of the argument and blame the custom intake....
I didn't change any rules, I provided a dynograph which provides a more accurate comparison between the two engines.
both engines have:
an individual throttle with a plenum a transverse manual transmission ported heads an aftermarket cam
the "supernatural" in addition to the above has a very custom intake manifold, and pistons from a different engine. I'm honestly surprised that you're not rejoicing at the fact that the more comparable engine makes less power, instead, you attack myself and the builder.
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
...same troll that takes a decade to do 1 swap...
Since you brought my swap into the discussion, it hasn't taken a decade to do, I have driven my car on several occasions, admittedly, not as much as I would like, that being said, my car is more than just a swap, for me, it is a platform to continually improve, an exercise in engineering, no part is ever good enough, which is the big reason why I'm not currently blasting down the road. For me, the journey is worth as much as the destination.
That being said it does become difficult to accomplish much on my car when I spend months at a time underwater or overseas away from it, cumulatively, more than 3 of the past 6 years has been spent away(>10 hour drive) from my car, and 2 of the remaining years I was working 12 hour rotating shift work. The remaining time has been spent on more than just the engine swap, many other substantial improvements or repairs have been made, an 88 cradle swap, custom 13" brakes on all four corners, improved engine management, replacement of the entire chassis harness ect. My car is grossly more complicated than "just an engine swap".
Please stop with the name calling, try to keep discussion at least a little bit civil.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Since you brought my swap into the discussion, it hasn't taken a decade to do, I have driven my car on several occasions, admittedly, not as much as I would like, that being said, my car is more than just a swap, for me, it is a platform to continually improve, an exercise in engineering, no part is ever good enough, which is the big reason why I'm not currently blasting down the road. For me, the journey is worth as much as the destination.
That being said it does become difficult to accomplish much on my car when I spend months at a time underwater or overseas away from it, cumulatively, more than 3 of the past 6 years has been spent away(>10 hour drive) from my car, and 2 of the remaining years I was working 12 hour rotating shift work. The remaining time has been spent on more than just the engine swap, many other substantial improvements or repairs have been made, an 88 cradle swap, custom 13" brakes on all four corners, improved engine management, replacement of the entire chassis harness ect. My car is grossly more complicated than "just an engine swap".
Please stop with the name calling, try to keep discussion at least a little bit civil.
What do you do for a living? If you spend a lot of time away from home that's very understandable. I know what you mean, between work and family the time to work on the project gets reduced. I only have my beautiful wife and a cat and my daily job and I teach performance driving about 5 months out of the year. The rest of the time is for my Fiero. That's not counting my other cars; 2013 Abarth (which I use for the performance driving school) and a 1983 Porsche 944 that once the Fiero is complete I'll start restoring it. The 944 is my daily driver and I love driving that car! Lou is working on a new garage so he has his own projects besides his Fieros. I guess every Fiero owner is juggling!
[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 03-03-2020).]
What do you do for a living? If you spend a lot of time away from home that's very understandable. I know what you mean, between work and family the time to work on the project gets reduced. I only have my beautiful wife and a cat and my daily job and I teach performance driving about 5 months out of the year. The rest of the time is for my Fiero. That's not counting my other cars; 2013 Abarth (which I use for the performance driving school) and a 1983 Porsche 944 that once the Fiero is complete I'll start restoring it. The 944 is my daily driver and I love driving that car! Lou is working on a new garage so he has his own projects besides his Fieros. I guess every Fiero owner is juggling!
I'm a Nuclear Machinist Mate on board the USS Maine (SSBN-741), My duties include operation, maintenance, and repair of the ship's nuclear reactor, steam propulsion plant, electrical power generation equipment, air conditioning, and freshwater productions systems. As with all submariners, I support damage control efforts in the event of casualties(fires, flooding, ect), and am part of the ships self defense force. I currently oversea the coordination, scheduling, and execution of maintenance for the reactor's mechanical systems.
TL: DR:
I work in the engineroom and make the submarine go.
My fiero is also not my only project, I have an 88 Suburban that I've rebuilt and driven as far north as Gobler's Knob Alaska, and as far south as OKC. I also purchased a house last year that I have been steadily making various improvements to.
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
Then stop being a troll. Nobody in this thread cares about some other engine. While it's ok if other topics casually come up - you have a history of dissing everything with iron heads. It's about time you AL head trolls swallowed some humble pie. Also, SuperDave has been super shady about his mods. On one website he listed his engine as having a "glass-polished" intake this and "race-prepped" that, then comes into my thread and denies it all. Things such as changing wheels from track wheels to "stock" or even lighter wheels make hugs differences on the dyno and he did mention changing wheels to drive to the dyno.
Let's get something straight - there is no such thing as "apples to apples". My old dynos were compared to MANY AL dynos where is you read the 'fine print' the person in question claimed 'stock' but had converted to E85 (a mod I only did last year and gained 12 rwhp from) or other things done. Stupid things like bolts-on such as a whole new exhaust still qualifies as 'stock engine'. I mean ridiculous stuff. Also, over time I kept increasing the weight of my wheels for racing so my dynos continued to go down over time despite the fact that it helps me make huge gains at the track...after which I realized trolls will be trolls so now I call a spade a spade when I see a spade.
All I did is show that when you match all the MECHANICAL (not some mythical super duper head design) advantages newer V6/60 engines came with stock compared to an engine from the 80's such as a better flowing intake, slightly more compression, smaller crrank pulley, roller cam that also features more intake lift, thinner valve stems, better ignition ... and I'm sure I'm missing some things... ...such as I think circa 2005 or so engines at WOT disable alternator load for another 7 rwhp and maybe 11 ft*lbs ... that their 'advantage' disappears and reallity sets in that aluminum heads were a compromise to fit under all those low profile look-a-like FWD sedans hoods from the 90's. That's not to say that the Fiero V6 wasn't also compromised in some ways as well but... Eventually FWD hoods started to enlarge to the point where they all look the same so such compromises are no longer needed and that's why we now have the 3.6L LFX engine and hence 3X00/60 engines are also in the dinosaur bin.
As for weight savings. That's great if you care about fuel economy. Anyone who converts to E85 doesn't. Anyone who has to launch at the track is happy to have the weight where it needs to be.
You can talk 1/4 times all you want. Here are my results against the toughest competitors in the whole north east on a 1/3 mile oval track.
So I will re-iterate my claim: a 3X00/60 swap, except maybe a full 3900 is a waste of a swap in a Fiero. The 3800 has more potential and is 10 times easier since you can buy everything you need. A proper 3.4 rebuild (which why would you trust a USED head/intake gasket leak-prone engine) produces similar and more reliable results while looking stock. The exception to all this is if you were running the L4, not the V6.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-04-2020).]
Originally posted by Will: Lol dude... you're the only one who's butt hurt about that.
That's funny Will. Everyone was butt-hurt by me from the beginning which is why I was so vigorously attacked. Consensus didn't make you right then. Trying to paint me as the one who is butt-hurt today is pretty hilarious. For the record - a N* is also a waste of a V8 swap in a Fiero when an LS has so much more potential and available in kit form.
Originally posted by Will: In lashing out, you demonstrate you're the one who's hurt.
With every reply you validate my trolling claim.
The difference between me and you pathetic sub-bridge dwelling trolls is that not once have I even gone into your "I have to spend a life time of fabrication just to make 1/2 more RWHP than some other swap" threads and trolled you. How's that for a butt-hurt reality slap?
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-04-2020).]
you repeatably show your character, I suspect you will continue to do so, one day a civil discussion may occur, but I suspect the name calling and oddly fanatical ranting will continue until you ruin every attempt at a civil discussion on the matter. if you have anything to say, it can be said in a PM there is no need to further disrupt this thread.
I'm genuinely sorry that your thread has been muddied to hell on what could have been a civil discussion with a somewhat scientific approach. to avoid further disruption, I am going to bow out, if you have any questions or would like clarification on anything I stated here, please feel free to drop me a PM. good luck reaching your goals.
-262
------------------ "I am not what you so glibly call to be a civilized man. I have broken with society for reasons which I alone am able to appreciate. I am therefore not subject to it's stupid laws, and I ask you to never allude to them in my presence again."
you repeatably show your character, I suspect you will continue to do so, one day a civil discussion may occur, but I suspect the name calling and oddly fanatical ranting will continue until you ruin every attempt at a civil discussion on the matter. if you have anything to say, it can be said in a PM there is no need to further disrupt this thread.
Why did you post in MY thread about selling valve cover spacers for iron heads? Were you a potential customer? No. You trolled. That's what you do.
That's as civil as you have ever been. It's your fanatical raving over the years that has induced my attitude. Never have I gone into someone else's thread and tell them they are wasting their time and pestered them with wack-off fanboyism about some other swap. My "swap" was all about spreading knowledge so anyone interested in a 3.4 could do it as well if that was their choice. It's AL-head fanboys like YOU that ruin these threads. For freak's sake half of 60degree.com or whatever it was joined Pennocks just to bash my build they were so butt hurt. Ridiculous. Pathetic. They are single-handedly responsible for all my bad ratings along with some RTF trolls... Too bad they couldn't get me banned... Let's just compare ratings bars here to see who is telling the truth. It's your attitude and character that has continuously sucked donkey balls to lots of people over the years. Perhaps you are faking at being civil so you don't get banned.
Show respect and you'll get it back. When all you've ever given me is sh!t expect it back. As for my character. Consider me a chameleon. I'll give you what you give me.
[This message has been edited by lou_dias (edited 03-04-2020).]
It's been a while but here's an update!! Heads are finally finished. I had them a month ago but one got damaged in shipping, a bent valve. That has been corrected and now they are installed in 3.7 shortblock. What's next? I'm waiting for a Quaife differencial (a real one) and once it comes in the engine and trans will come out. I'll take a week's vacation to finish it once I get the diff from the UK. I need to have it ready for at least the last track event of the year so I can give it a shakedown. Stay tuned!
Were the ports cut with a CNC machine? They look very straight and uniform.
Is the paint Glyptal 1201?
Yes Patrick, they are CNC machined so all the intake and exhaust are exactly the same respectively. As the paint it is just Dupli-Color engine paing with Ceramic. Key is to have the surfaces free of grease or oil and mask the places where you don't want painted.
It's very red. Are you concerned about engine oil degrading the paint on the areas that will be inside the engine? Going for a Quaife for F23? Got your 4.40 FD from a Saturn Vue yet?
At 6:10 in the video, we see that your heads are very different than ordinary Fiero heads. On the stock car, the intake port is much smaller, and it is hard to see the valve. In this video, we see a lot more of the intake valve stem.
I know that Glyptal 1201 is a common choice to help the oil flow and return to the oil pan, and the Glyptal 1201 does not degrade and end up in the oil pan, clogging the suction screen.
I suppose the Dupli-Color with ceramic is a paint you have experience with, and it works just like the Glyptal?
It's very red. Are you concerned about engine oil degrading the paint on the areas that will be inside the engine? Going for a Quaife for F23? Got your 4.40 FD from a Saturn Vue yet?
I have the same paint type but in black in the 3.4 that's in the car and the paint is holding very good. I'm used this type of paint in all my builds and never have seen paint chips in the oil filter. As fat as the trans, yes, I broke my piggy bank and order me a real diff. (I took your advice) I kept the same 3.94 F23 because it fits this combo very good. The 4.40 is still in my wish list.
Yes Patrick, they are CNC machined so all the intake and exhaust are exactly the same respectively. As the paint it is just Dupli-Color engine paing with Ceramic. Key is to have the surfaces free of grease or oil and mask the places where you don't want painted.
Man - after watching that video I almost wish I just bought heads off you. Mines should be done soon. Hand-ported. Only 1.25" diameter exhaust ports however I'm having the bottom of the ported enlarged to the D shape.
Man - after watching that video I almost wish I just bought heads off you. Mines should be done soon. Hand-ported. Only 1.25" diameter exhaust ports however I'm having the bottom of the ported enlarged to the D shape.
Thanks for the complements Lou! Can't wait to see yours done!
The differential is supported by tapered roller bearings, squeezed between both sides of the case, correct?
You need just the right amount of preload; not too tight to burn up the bearings, but without any looseness. At the factory I believe that they used shims (of different thicknesses) to get just the right preload, even though the parts have variation. A shim would have been placed between the bearing cup and one side of the case.
If you're changing the stock differential for this one, and possibly installing new bearings, then it's likely that the preload could change. It should be checked.
The differential is supported by tapered roller bearings, squeezed between both sides of the case, correct?
You need just the right amount of preload; not too tight to burn up the bearings, but without any looseness. At the factory I believe that they used shims (of different thicknesses) to get just the right preload, even though the parts have variation. A shim would have been placed between the bearing cup and one side of the case.
If you're changing the stock differential for this one, and possibly installing new bearings, then it's likely that the preload could change. It should be checked.
Oh ok. I leave this work to the best. I have a gentleman that all he does is NASCAR race rear ends and differentials. He asks me what is the application, HP and type of racing and he does the rest. I concentrate my efforts on engine building and driving the car, he does the rest. The same with my machinist, I design the parts and do the math and he does the rest. When you delegate your work load becomes more managable. Even thouth you think you have everything under control, something is slipping under the rug.
Ok that's good. Actually setting up a differential in a transverse transmission is very simple compared to setting up a differential with right-angled gears, so it should be a walk in the park for your guy.
I spoke too soon. My lady reminded me of some chores I have on the house and that I promised my neighbor when he asked me for some help. After that then I can tear my Fiero apart to do the upgrades. Besides, she bought me the diff! Whatever she says I'll do! Happy wife, happy Fiero owner!!
I like the attention to detail you did on the masking off the heads for paint. I never thought of doing it that way. I always just tore it by hand and did the best lines I could. Thank you for that.
Originally posted by pmbrunelle: I did not see that video yet.
At 6:10 in the video, we see that your heads are very different than ordinary Fiero heads. On the stock car, the intake port is much smaller, and it is hard to see the valve. In this video, we see a lot more of the intake valve stem.
I know that Glyptal 1201 is a common choice to help the oil flow and return to the oil pan, and the Glyptal 1201 does not degrade and end up in the oil pan, clogging the suction screen.
I suppose the Dupli-Color with ceramic is a paint you have experience with, and it works just like the Glyptal?
His CNC ported heads eliminate the vane that splits the airflow around both sides of the valve stem. This is where me an him differ in philosophy. Though I can't deny it increases overall flow.
If you're doing light modifications to the Fiero, keeping more or less the same intake concept as stock, then probably it makes sense to keep the vane.
On Rei's engine, the ports are huge; they're nothing like stock. Everything upstream of the valve, it's like he threw it away and replaced it with something made using the Supernatural methods he knows. In this case, it wouldn't make sense to keep a vestige of the Fiero intake design.
[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 09-05-2020).]
His CNC ported heads eliminate the vane that splits the airflow around both sides of the valve stem. This is where me an him differ in philosophy. Though I can't deny it increases overall flow.
If the design was to promote low speed torque I would leave the vanes in. If I were to leave the vanes at the speeds the air travels through the ports on my heads it would cause choke. Yes, I want to speed up the air going from the top of the runners all the way to the valve opening port and with the vanes in place it would speed up too much at high rpm causing a choke like mentioned before. By removing the vanes and having the intake manifold runners do all the air speeding while carrying more CFM and more air mass at a higher RPM would make the heads and intake combo more efficient at higher RPMs. So basically all I've done is to shift the efficiency to higher RPMs by removing the vanes but make the intake to act as the vane. More like taking a small spoiler and replace it with a bigger spoiler, they are two spoilers but work at different speeds.
Regarding the vanes in the intake ports: The Chevy Power Manual says they increase port flow by 15%. But they don't say under what conditions. Conventional wisdom says the vanes split the airflow to go around the valve stems. For a long time, I subscribed to that school of thought. But lately I have reconsidered.
I doubt the vanes are much more aerodynamic than the valve stems. So I don't think the idea of splitting the air to flow around the valve stems is completely accurate. I think they're actually vortex generators, to improve swirl at idle and low RPM. At higher RPM, they're probably an airflow restriction. That would explain why Ryan Falconer removed the vanes in his race heads.
Originally posted by Blacktree: I doubt the vanes are much more aerodynamic than the valve stems. So I don't think the idea of splitting the air to flow around the valve stems is completely accurate. I think they're actually vortex generators, to improve swirl at idle and low RPM. At higher RPM, they're probably an airflow restriction. That would explain why Ryan Falconer removed the vanes in his race heads.
Bingo!!!! And if you think about it that vain is a reverse spoiler. So, my thinking is that the vain does not split the airflow, but according to Bernoulli's theorem it speeds up the air traveing OVER the vane the same way the air travels under a spoiler as air travels faster under the spoiler and slower on top.That discrepancy in air speed causes turbulence in the combustion chamber making the air fuel mix more homogeneuous. And like your conventional wisdom told you that same vane at hight rpms would be a restriction causing a choke and increasing pressure at that point. That increase in pressure at that point also increases temperature making the mixture less efficient due to less denser hotter air and it is like a avalanche, the higher the rpms the worst it gets. It's the same principle why turbo/super charged engines need some kind of charge cooling. But how about if you go the other way, low pressure high speed air charge? Then the opposite happens! That's what I have accomplished with the Supernatural system.
And like your conventional wisdom told you that same vane at hight rpms would be a restriction causing a choke and increasing pressure at that point. That increase in pressure at that point also increases temperature making the mixture less efficient due to less denser hotter air and it is like a avalanche, the higher the rpms the worst it gets.
To me, it looks to be that GM abandoned the use of port obstructions in intake ports in the early to mid nineties. The Gen II and Gen III v6, vortec heads for the SBC, LT1, as well as the later duke heads, all ditched the swirl ports and vanes, in favor of shear ramps and more typical port shapes with geometries that put more emphasis on seeing the valve heads. Its clear they started to use more sophisticated CFD in their design past the 80's low speed torque obsession.
To me, it looks to be that GM abandoned the use of port obstructions in intake ports in the early to mid nineties. The Gen II and Gen III v6, vortec heads for the SBC, LT1, as well as the later duke heads, all ditched the swirl ports and vanes, in favor of shear ramps and more typical port shapes with geometries that put more emphasis on seeing the valve heads. Its clear they started to use more sophisticated CFD in their design past the 80's low speed torque obsession.
In my case, the flowbench I've used over the years (which I only use as a reference tool) revealed that at low lift (.100-.250ish) that vane has some minor improvements in flow. Past that the loss was substantial compared to the gains at the low lift numbers. And since the cams in the stock 2.8/3.1/3.4 engines had very low lift, it is obvious why GM put the vanes there.
Originally posted by La fiera:... at low lift (.100-.250ish) that vane has some minor improvements in flow. Past that the loss was substantial compared to the gains at the low lift numbers.
Thanks for the info.
But now I feel like a doofus for leaving the vanes in my 3.4 build. LOL
It's a long weekend so, yep I'll get up early tomorrow and start tearing the engine and trans out.
Whatever she says I'll do! 
